The problem of generosity

[Tanemon]

I have an older friend of spiritual leaning, and he’s still generous. He strikes everybody as a kind, radiant, and warm person, and as I’ve gotten to know him better, I’ve learned more about his personal path in life to this point.

But this has been his problem – generosity. When he was young, he inherited a bit of money. It allowed him, he said, to experiment in life. Arthur was able to meet all sorts of people, try out different kinds of work and learn skills. He says he had a natural sympathy for his fellow humans, and that within about five years most of his inheritance was gone. A lot of it, he says, went to loans he made that were not repaid, and to a few “gifts” to noble projects - while he spent some on a car, a small cheap cottage, some tools. Arthur says almost nobody sought to repay him, though one or two did. But he says he had expected a circle of mutual support and kindness was going to develop in the community he lived in.

Arthur says that he then went through some tough economic times, and sometimes felt bitter about the people he’d loaned or given money to who later seemed to avoid him. He focused through the years in being responsible for his wife, his child by his first marriage, and himself.

A couple people I’ve met who knew Arthur in the old days pretty much tell the same story about all these things, so I’ve tended to believe what he’s told me.

At this point, Arthur’s said to me, he has worked through the bitterness and simply accepts that “that was how it went” and “that is how people can be”. But he still likes and enjoys people. He says, though, that he does not know how to look at generosity as a quality in people, and does not know quite whether to appreciate it in himself.

I have to admit that I didn’t really know how to respond. In all honesty, I appreciate Arthur’s good qualities, including warmth and generosity. But I can see how it kind of got him into some difficult stuff. And, like most people, I too have experienced a fair amount of disappointment and a lot of human selfishness or disregard.

So I’m putting this out there for comment, because I find it all a bit confusing.

[AJ ARLC]

It's unfortunate that he couldn't tamper and control his generosity, and put himself first.

People are very afraid to be selfish because it earns a bad rap. What's the real definition of being selfish? Caring about yourself.

I'm generous with people too - my time, my attention, my empathy, and I even drive them around places more than I should (not like give them rides to doctors but wherever we hang out I drive us). The key is not to let it consume you and put your own needs under everyone else's.

Originally Posted by Tanemon

At this point, Arthur’s said to me, he has worked through the bitterness and simply accepts that “that was how it went” and “that is how people can be”. But he still likes and enjoys people. He says, though, that he does not know how to look at generosity as a quality in people, and does not know quite whether to appreciate it in himself.

I have to admit that I didn’t really know how to respond.

I can see why you'd be at a loss for words at that. Nothing "just happened" - he let loose and lost control. In today's society, when people have unfortunate things happen to them like being stuck on the side of a road and everyone passing by, or people not holding doors open when they're in a rush, or various, various things, you hear backlashes like "people only care about themselves." It takes wisdom and life experience to understand that your friend Arthur - although on an exaggerated scale - has a genuine, golden trait of caring about others and appreciating them. But the key is balance.

I think his problem is that he's not seeing what truly happened, he's not seeing his responsibility for it, and as a result, he distorts his perspective and opinion on generosity itself, rather than seeing his part in it. It's a good thing to have and he's not a bad person, but he needs to be encouraged to care a little bit more about himself and learn how to properly use generosity rather than misunderstand it.

[Dreamline]

Obviously, Arthur was the cause of his own problems but was in denial. Now it seems he is over that.

His generosity was not, technically, at fault. His poor business sense and his lack of discernement was.

Jennifer

[ns123]

The sad fact is, without using judgment and discernment, friends and family can end up taking advantage of you. They usually don't set out to "screw you over" by taking a "loan" and not paying it back. Some of them think you can afford it, or they end up resenting your "help."

The thing is to choose wisely who you invest in. You can be generous without being enabling. Most of the time, when we say generosity, it's really just enabling. It's not generous to bail out a financially irresponsible person, it's actually enabling. I know this because I've learned this lesson the hard way, multiple times. And it's not their fault for "screwing me over" it's my own fault for being an enabler.

True generosity needs no reciprocation - because if you do, what you're really doing is manipulation. You want to do something "generous" but you want something in return (reciprocation).

So if you give, just give... and if you can't, don't beat yourself for it. It's not your responsibility to save others... even if you have the capability to bail them out. Never put your livelihood at risk. Have boundaries.

[Tanemon]

Originally Posted by ns123

True generosity needs no reciprocation - because if you do, what you're really doing is manipulation. You want to do something "generous" but you want something in return (reciprocation).

Some very good comments in this thread on a fascinating topic.

One thing Arthur and I see pretty well eye-to-eye on is that reciprocity is a feature of true community. Whether the people involved in the mutuality or reciprocity are notably generous individuals or not. Community is a little different from self-awareness and self-responsibility.

I have to say that I've known people who are generous and can be involved in circles of responsible reciprocity, too. (Not that I feel you were disallowing that possibility.)

[Dreamline]

Arthur could have been repaying karma from a previous life. You never know. But he seems ok with his place in the universe now...so what's the problem?

Jennifer

[Abitofzen]

There are some great thoughts expressed in this thread, already (you have to temper kindness with intelligence... sometimes the child has to burn their hand on the stove to learn)

I would also like to add that true generosity is incredibly rewarding, but not as common as it appears.

I'm very giving. But I'm only occasionally 'generous'.

I'm really good at giving. I often share my time, food, resources, etc. with people, but I'm usually expecting something in return. It might just be a good conversation, but I have that expectation of reciprocity.

The way I'm using the term, Generosity describes the state where the giving itself is the reward. You feel great that you got to share. You feel great that the other person/people got to prosper from your gift. Anything else that comes back is just a bonus. I've done this occasionally... but it has been pretty rare. I'm not nearly as good at generosity...

Generosity is a bit more challenging than it appears.

keep smiling,

Ben

[Kean]

Throughout my life, I have learned to give without asking anything in return. Not because of karma, not because I hope that some day I'll be paid back - but simply because I can also enjoy the smile on their face the moment I give them. Sharing a brief moment of mutual happiness is enough, I think, to be selfish and unreciprocally altruistic simultaneously.

Unless something vital is at stake in the individual generous action, I think there's nothing to loose.

[ns123]

It's easier to be generous with complete strangers I think. Like, giving a kid a water bottle if you have an extra one when the kid is thirsty (with parent's permission). Or buying the person in line behind you their coffee. Or opening the door for a mom struggling with a stroller.

It's harder to be truly generous with people close to you... because it's like, you have to give more. And it's not really generosity on your part if you agree to grant them something they asked you for, even if it's at cost to you... because, even though you don't admit it, deep down, you are expecting something in return - mostly gratitude or thanks. Which is still something in return.

I had a friend once - very close friend - who asked me to cosign on a loan so he could go to med school - this loan cost more than my house. And I don't have a small house. I said no. If I said yes, it would not be out of generosity... because I would expect in return that he doesn't screw me over (not pay his loan)... and if he becomes a doc and I get broke... he would reciprocate. The whole situation was a recipe for failure, because he was irresponsible with money to begin with, so I decided to not enable him. Me saying no was not me being ungenerous.

I've also bought my brother a car before, actually two cars. But that's not being generous, because I totally expect my brother to not give me **** and be grateful I bought him a car. And I totally expect that if I ever run into financial (or emothional) hardship, my brother is there for me. So that's not generosity either.

The last time I remember being truly generous was when it cost me not one cent. I wrote a letter to one of my other brothers to let him know that I loved him, thought of him, and was glad he was in my life. Another time was when I wrote my in laws, sent a bunch of pictures (that I carefully selected and printed out) of our family vacation with them, and told them I truly had a great time and looked forward to more great memories in the future (and I meant it).

So times when I've truly felt that I was generous didn't really cost me a dime monetarily.

Those are some examples of generosity in my definition of how I understand the term. Others may disagree with me, and that's really ok. I'm not an expert on generosity so I don't claim to have a monopoly over what it is.

[ethereal]

You can be generous to people who you expect generosity from, and stay away from crooks and selfish people who won't repay you back. For example, Jesus said "resist not evil" but he also said to avoid evil, and he stayed with his disciples which were good guys. Being generous and loving doesn't mean to be naive pussywellows who let other people step all over them. That's just a projection and image of nice-guy goodie two shoes spirituality, and not what spirituality really is.

Truly being generous means to give people what they need as lessons to enlighten. Letting crooks get away with stealing your money is a bad lesson to give people -- perhaps the most generous and loving thing your friend can do is demand his money back, to teach them a lesson that they shouldn't mooch off of other people and act selfishly. That is for their highest good, or else they'll be running huge karmic debts all over the place.

[Tanemon]

Great discussion. Thanks everyone. And keep making comments, if you want.

I remember Arthur making the distinction between things (a place to stay, money in a few cases) that he just gave people, on the one hand, and loans he made to friends. He said that it irked him that with the loans, when people did not repay, they often clearly avoided him - would not talk to him, would see him and walk around a corner stuff like that.

In terms of my ow thinking, and in terms of what people have said in this thread, I can easily decide that he should have had a lawyer - or at least a noterized paper spelling out details, signed by himself and the person he loaned to. The informality probably felt good at the time, but I guess it just proved impractical.

[dirtyhive]

Originally Posted by ns123

True generosity needs no reciprocation - because if you do, what you're really doing is manipulation. You want to do something "generous" but you want something in return (reciprocation).

This implies that the guy wasn't being truly generous by lending people money, because he expected repayments.

I don't think this is right. I think it is reasonable and very sensible to expect repayments. Apart from anything, people don't respect free money anyway, and you won't really be helping them in any non-financial way. The generosity comes not from the fact that he gave them money, but from the fact that he allowed himself to trust them despite their clear and obvious existing financial difficulties. He didn't expect to be repaid with similar generous and trusting gestures, he simply wanted his money back. I don't think that it is a manipulative move to temporarily give somebody a chance to work themselves out of a pit, and eventually want to retract that help.

The trouble is that sometimes it's not that simple.

I owe my Dad a very large sum of money and have done for a long time. I have repaid none of it. He has never pushed me to repay it by a particular time, merely "whenever I can." I have rewarded his generosity by repaying not a penny thus far. I guess I am one of Arthur's selfish friends. However, the issue is not that I don't want to repay him - I simply cannot. I am unemployed, and I have numerous other and more pressing debts. The loan company keep threatening to send the bailiffs round, the bank keep ringing me to demand greater and greater fees for my overdraft problems, and it's all I can do to keep those organisations at bay with my meagre unemployment benefits. At least the Bank of Dad doesn't charge me interest or fees. I really do want to pay him back someday, but at the moment it might as well be sometime never. Right now, though, I'm totally taking advantage of him, and I can't help it. I had no choice but to accept his loan - I was on the verge of being kicked out of my house and being made homeless. What is a good person to do?

Food for thought, anyway...

[ns123]

Originally Posted by dirtyhive

This implies that the guy wasn't being truly generous by lending people money, because he expected repayments.

I do apologize, but I was not referring to the reciprocation of paying back the loan. Sorry that was unclear and I totally see how you can come to this conclusion.

The reciprocation I was talking about was undying gratitude or some emotional reciprocation. Like, if I loan you money, you will do me some sort of favor when I need it... or you will come through for me (support me)... or you will at least express gratitude. That's what I mean about reciprocation.

I would recommend that people who want to practice generosity to NEVER do it by loaning money. If you want to practice generosity, there are other things you can do that are truly generous... without involving money. One of them is free - generously listening is one of my favorites.

[dirtyhive]

Oh, I see. Thanks for clarifying.

[Tanemon]

Well, if I'm not mistaken in reading thru all the responses, the general drift is there are two topics in all this: generosity (in it's pure non-expectational form), and friendly support (mutual, could involve loaned money, could involve reciprocity).

Does this conclusion sound accurate?

Assuming I'm not too far off, then for me it raises this question... What is friendship? Does the concept or sense of "friendship" imply mutuality and hence always some kind of reciprocity?

(I'm enjoying learning other people's thoughts, and not simply being stuck in my own. )

[ns123]

I think you summed it up very well.

In the area of friendship as it pertains to me, I do expect reciprocation. If I make time for you, I do expect you to make time for me (not all the time though!). For example, if I invite you over (or out) a few times and you never invite me... it sends me the message that you really don't want to be friends with me. Friends make an effort for each other... or at least, if you are my friend you will.

It's kind of negative to say... and the word expectation is not the correct word I'm looking for. It's more... when I see a friendship, it has certain qualities... and if it doesn't, it's not a friendship to me.