Opinions on non-coercive parenting?

[Plays With Life]

I tend to like ideas and approaches to parenting that are non-coercive, co-operative and the like. They just seem natural and desirable to me. Then I read / hear responses to it, like these:

-Have you gone barking mad? If the kid has nits because the parents refuse to take of the situation, the kid should be removed from custody and the parents jailed for child abuse. You've stated the entire problem with TCS when you said "the child's preference takes priority". On what planet??? A child's "prefrences" don't mean diddly-squat.

-We are going to live to be old people with a bunch of these kids (now grown up) who think they can do what they will because they were raised to think that whatever they do is ok. That fact scares me to death.

-If these kids are used to getting their own way in EVERYthing, they'll soon be unpleasantly surprised by school. And if Mumsy and Dadsy homeschool them, then they'll be unpleasantly surprised by their fellow kids. And even if they aren't, they will DEFINITELY be unpleasantly surprised by college and adult life.

-I suspect that there are about 10 parents in the country who seriously believe in this TCS stuff. You may quit worrying about the few loonies who subscribe to this one.

.. and the responses kind of disturb me. Honestly, I don't understand how people DON'T get non-coercive parenting. I'm not sure what makes people think that Bad Things will happen if you don't smack your kids around and control their behaviour.

I was wondering if anyone here has opinions on it? And how would you respond to the naysayers? ie, suppose a friend approached you, and criticized your non-coercive parenting approach. (a friend of mine had this happen to her). Do you know how you might respond to that person?

I don't have kids of my own, so I can't speak from extensive experience. This is generally the way I interact with children in my life though, and it's always seemed to work fine.

[carenkh]

I don't agree with TCS, that the child's preference takes priority - I believe their NEEDS do, when they are very young. But I go with more of a Consensual Living approach - finding the win/win/win for everyone. I'm finding the more I live this way, the more I can find those solutions everywhere, not just in parenting.

We are radical unschoolers, and my responses to folks differ based on the place they play in my life. Most often, a simple, "This is working really well for us right now. If that changes, we'll change" works. If they're closer friends, I'll thank them for their concern, but reiterate we're doing what works for us as a family. I have a friend who parents very differently than I do, and we've agreed to disagree. There are a few uncomfortable moments here and there, but she's a very, very good friend, and worth feeling those. If she was very punitive and controlling, we wouldn't be friends any more.

I've surrounded myself with people with similar values, for the support I initially needed to make these changes and live this way. Virtually surrounding, anyway - email lists, online discussion groups, etc. I also get together with other unschoolers as often as I can, because I really like these people, but again, for the support, so my kids can see there are other kids who aren't belittled and controlled and coerced.

I don't feel the need to justify the choices I make with my kids to anyone. I don't spend time trying to convince people. We just keep living this way, and the "proof" is in how alive my kids are, how interested they are in life, how respectful and thoughtful they are, especially as they get older.

I don't doubt that this approach works, because I've gotten to know enough adults and teens who were raised this way, and they are not self-entitled jerks. They are people I want to be around.

There's a line between completely kow-towing to kids, and taking their needs and wants seriously. It's been a whole reworking of the way I view parenting and children, and it's hard to get across in just a few lines.

[ssandra]

I think there is a differency between letting your child do everything it wants or trying to work together as much as possible but yet setting healthy bounderies.

One of the things that children learn from their parents is to look beyond today, to tomorrow. If a child for example never learns how to control his eating habits, it will grow up fat and unhappy or extremely thin and unhappy.

So, you can give your child choices, do you want a candy now or after diner? Do you want this candy or that candy?
But not: Sure honey,here is all the candy in the world!!

Disclaimer: i also do not have children, nor interest in raising any..

[Andrew Brunelle]

I'm not one who will procreate in this lifetime because I consciously choose not to, but I feel that being non-coercive is a step in the right direction because our whole society is based on coersion and look where that has gotten us. Millions of people going to jobs they hate just so they can live. The world is changing pretty rapidly and we need the changes to be positive. I see this as a step towards a better world.

[Plays With Life]

This is a pretty common complaint I hear:

Originally Posted by Plays With Life

[people] .. will think they can do what they will because they were raised to think that whatever they do is ok. That fact scares me to death.

And it's always struck me as odd. You're SCARED that people will do what they want to do? Huhwhat?

I lived with a girl who couldn't stand the family dog: "GOD! She just ... .. DOES WHATEVER SHE WANTS!!"

I actually cracked up laughing when she had that outburst. She's a DOG, what do you expect her to do?! And I see people the same way: what do you expect them to do?? Things they don't want to do?

[Cyllya]

I always have trouble understanding the TCS philosophy. I can't tell the difference between that and consensual living. Or radical unschooling, for that matter.

Of the three, I've read the most about radical unschooling, and it's how I would like to raise my future kids. I don't currently know much about the practical applications of non-coercive parenting, but less coercion definitely makes sense. My own mother is easily one of the most lenient parents I know, but she'd pretty much impugn your character for wearing clothes with what she considered to be poor color coordination.

On the topic of food (and anything else under the umbrella of teaching the kids responsibility or good habits), I don't think it makes much sense that controlling your kid's food intake will make them more likely to grow up with good eating habits than explaining what good habits are, setting a good example, and then letting them have all the candy you have the capacity to give if that's what they decide on. If anything, the latter approach seems like it'd be more effective.

(Never mind that parental food control seems to be incredibly common, while every adult I know is fat.)

Part of the source of the objections is a religious thing. There's at least one branch of Christianity (I forget which) that teaches that children are born evil. They become good through habit as their parents coerce them into being good. And the Bible teaches you to use physical discipline on your kids. (Some proponents of gentle discipline argue this point, but I think they aren't looking at enough verses.) Racism and sexism are also built into religion, so if we can get over those (well, we've made progress), I have hope that we can get over ageism too.

But mostly I think a lot of the objection just stem from a horribly sick and twisted view of what adult life should be like. (I suppose this is also a religious thing?) You frequently see the "If these kids are used to getting their own way in EVERYthing, they'll soon be unpleasantly surprised by... college and adult life" thing in response to unschooling, where it looks especially absurd. The whole point of unschooling is that you don't have to force your kid through education because he will do everything he needs to do either because he wants to or because he wants the consequences that come with doing it, which is how any healthy person would handle adult life. You go to college, get a job, and do your housework either because you want to (e.g. curiosity, fun) or because you want the consequences of having done so (e.g. more career opportunities, money, a clean house), NOT because you need to fill a certain misery quota in your life and getting a job is an efficient way to do so. Argh.

Speaking of twisted views of adult life, my mom lets all the other adults in her like treat her the way the pro-coercion people think non-coerced kids will treat their parents. The idea behind non-coercive parenting is that the family can sit down and have a mature discussion about everyone's preferences and get creative to find a solution that makes everyone reasonably satisfied. But my mom can't do that with anybody, even other adults! She just lets most people steamroll right over her until the rare occasion where she finally feels justified to treat them badly. I don't like the way she treats my little brother and sister, but I believe it's the lesser of evils compared to what she'd be like if she tried to be a non-coercive parent. I wonder if a lot of people have that problem. I think I do to a smaller extent just because I find it easier to deal with small annoyances than to confront someone about it.

And any time you talk about a parenting philosophy, you have to explain it in excruciating detail, because people will fill in the blanks with their own philosophy, which creates something everyone would agree is pretty absurd. For example, if you just say you don't force your kid to clean his room, coercion advocates are going to imagine a scene like this happening in your home:

Parent: "Your room is messy. Clean it."
Kid: "I'll do it later."
Parent: "...It's now later. Clean your room."
Kid: "I don't feel like it."
Parent: "Clean your room OR ELSE!!!" (temper tantrum)
Kid: "No."
Parent: "Fine. BUT I'VE DONE SO MUCH FOR YOU WHY DON'T YOU APPRECIATE ME!?!?"
(The parent goes off and sulks like a child. Two nights later, there's a fire, and the kid dies because he tripped over a toy. The parents curse their leniency.)

Whereas I suppose it'd actually go something like this:
Parent: "Your room is messy to the point of being unsafe. Please clear a route to escape in an emergency.... Or I could do it for you, but I'm worried I might accidentally damage one of your toys pushing it out of the way."
(The kid picks an option and the escape route is secured. If there's a fire, he lives, and everyone is happy.)

But a big point of avoiding coercion is to just accept that your kid will sometimes choose differently than you would if you were making the choice for him and that's not necessarily a horrible, horrible thing. His room won't look like a picture in a bedroom furniture advertisement. He occassionally will eat cupcakes for dinner. He will have what you deem to be a ridiculous hairstyle. And that's okay.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Cyllya

I
Parent: "Your room is messy. Clean it."
Kid: "I'll do it later."
Parent: "...It's now later. Clean your room."
Kid: "I don't feel like it."
Parent: "Clean your room OR ELSE!!!" (temper tantrum)
Kid: "No."
Parent: "Fine. BUT I'VE DONE SO MUCH FOR YOU WHY DON'T YOU APPRECIATE ME!?!?"
(The parent goes off and sulks like a child. Two nights later, there's a fire, and the kid dies because he tripped over a toy. The parents curse their leniency.)

Whereas I suppose it'd actually go something like this:
Parent: "Your room is messy to the point of being unsafe. Please clear a route to escape in an emergency.... Or I could do it for you, but I'm worried I might accidentally damage one of your toys pushing it out of the way."
(The kid picks an option and the escape route is secured. If there's a fire, he lives, and everyone is happy.)

Or it will go like this:

Parent: "Your room is messy to the point of being unsafe. Please clear a route to escape in an emergency.... Or I could do it for you, but I'm worried I might accidentally damage one of your toys pushing it out of the way."
Kid: "yeah, sure I will" (and kids being kids, sees some of his playmates outside and thinks that it will do it later... that night the same fire, kid dies, parents sad etc.)

I think that there should be a healthy balance between cohersion and non-cohersion. For example, a child should be able to have whatever hearstyle it wants, whatever clothes it wants; but should also keep their room clean (not not-messy clean, but no-left-over-food-that-will-attract-mice-and-decease-clean).

They should be tried to explain why something is better for them, yes, but a 3 year old will not understand why it cannot have candy for breakfast, lunch and diner. Or why it is important to at least try the vegetables before it declears that it doesn't like them.

For me that is what parenting is about. First setting the right example, explaining why this or that is better, and communicating with your child what they want.
If that works fine, you will raise wonderful children. But; if you child (children being children, has nothing to do with being a bad parent) doesn't care about your arguments, doesn't do what you ASK, doesn't treat others with respect etc, you have to set the bounderies. That is where children learn them.

I'm not saying that they should learn to accept life and not do whatever they want, but they should learn not to do whatever they want at the expence of other people. They have to learn not to distroy toys or proporty of other people/children, they have to learn to share.

Anyway this is my opinion. A road in the middle is better than either extreme.

[ssandra]

To give an example of physically teaching a child something (which should be used only with care and as a last resort)

When my brother was about 5 years old he used to cross the very busy road leading to a nearby park. There he would stand by the water trying to catch frogs (he couldn't swim very well yet) Of course this was forbidden to do. If he wanted to go to the park he could always go to my mom and she would take him. Otherwise he could just play on the playground infront of the house.

My mom tried everything. She talked to him, explained why it was dangerous. She told him he could go if he would just ask her to come with him (or any other adult or one of the older children in the area).
She offered nice things if he wouldn't go. She gave him punishment when he would go. She got mad at him and screamed.

One day, I saw him all alone at the other side of the busy street, near the water, almost falling in.

I told my mom.

She ran across the street, took him by the arm, dragged him home. At home she litteraly put him over her knees and spanked him (not hard, not even hard enough to really hurt).

He never ever crossed that road again, until he was old enough.

In a very real sence that spanking saved my brothers life.

So; yes, in a case of life and death I would punish my children like that. Anything to keep them from serious harm.

Would anybody here have done something different?

[Plays With Life]

Thanks for the reply! :

Originally Posted by ssandra

I'm not saying that they should learn to accept life and not do whatever they want, but they should learn not to do whatever they want at the expence of other people. They have to learn not to distroy toys or proporty of other people/children, they have to learn to share.

Do you think children wouldn't learn these things if they're not taught? ie, what kind of person would a child become if they weren't taught these things?

[Plays With Life]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Would anybody here have done something different?

I'm not sure exactly how I would respond, but spanking probably wouldn't be on my list of ideas.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Andrew Brunelle

Millions of people going to jobs they hate just so they can live.

Who's coercing them to do that?

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Plays With Life

Thanks for the reply! :



Do you think children wouldn't learn these things if they're not taught? ie, what kind of person would a child become if they weren't taught these things?

I have 3 adult cousins who were raised like that... 1. They are not happy 2. They are not capable of making good (business) decisions 3. They alianate people because they always take, and never give.

That is the type of person such a child has a higher probabilty of becoming.

But, this was a type of extreme non-cohersion. They could litterally do everything they wanted and if they did something bad they never had to see the consequenses of it, they were just told "now, that is not very nice of you, you should not do that" or something like that.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Plays With Life

I'm not sure exactly how I would respond, but spanking probably wouldn't be on my list of ideas.

Within your theory of raising children, how would they suggest that you would handle it?

Remember that talking didn't work...

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Within your theory of raising children, how would they suggest that you would handle it?

Remember that talking didn't work...

At 5 years old, if he had shown a propensity for doing that? I would never NOT take him across the street. Any time he expressed an interest in going across the street, I would go. I would fill him up with crossing the street - with me or another responsible person - and fill him up with frog play and water play. He would rarely hear, "not now". If it needed to be "not now", no other solution? I would stay by his side to keep him safe. I would find something fun and interesting for him to do by my side, while I finished up whatever. I would hire older kids to stay with him to keep him safe and take him across the street if I needed to. He would be able to stay at that lake as long as he wanted.

If he knew the answer would be "yes" when he asked for help, he would never have felt the need to go on his own.

Oh, yeah - I'd get him swimming lessons, ASAP!

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by ssandra

So, you can give your child choices, do you want a candy now or after diner? Do you want this candy or that candy?
But not: Sure honey,here is all the candy in the world!!

Actually, I've chosen to say "Here is all the candy in the world! And if you need more, we'll find a way to get it!" And I have two boys who approach food very differently. I did control their candy, etc. until my oldest was around 9, so for 7 years or so, they've had food freedom. What they want, when they want.

They certainly don't always make the healthiest choice - neither do I! But I did, just a few weeks ago, throw out Halloween candy that had gone uneaten. They could eat as much of that any time they wanted.

My oldest will more often pick an apple or salad than a doughnut.

The point isn't that being non-coercive in this area means they'll ALWAYS make the healthiest choice; it means they know the choice is THEIRS. They will never eat something to spite me, they won't hoard unhealthy food because they're afraid it will get taken away. Kids who are controlled in their home who come to our house almost always eat much, much more junk than my kids do. They'll eat a whole bag of chips because they finally CAN. My kids will take a few and that'll be enough for them. They listen to their bodies. They are the authority on their own bodies.

[jamesbiz]

Originally Posted by carenkh

I don't agree with TCS, that the child's preference takes priority - I believe their NEEDS do, when they are very young. But I go with more of a Consensual Living approach - finding the win/win/win for everyone. I'm finding the more I live this way, the more I can find those solutions everywhere, not just in parenting.

We are radical unschoolers, and my responses to folks differ based on the place they play in my life. Most often, a simple, "This is working really well for us right now. If that changes, we'll change" works. If they're closer friends, I'll thank them for their concern, but reiterate we're doing what works for us as a family. I have a friend who parents very differently than I do, and we've agreed to disagree. There are a few uncomfortable moments here and there, but she's a very, very good friend, and worth feeling those. If she was very punitive and controlling, we wouldn't be friends any more.

I've surrounded myself with people with similar values, for the support I initially needed to make these changes and live this way. Virtually surrounding, anyway - email lists, online discussion groups, etc. I also get together with other unschoolers as often as I can, because I really like these people, but again, for the support, so my kids can see there are other kids who aren't belittled and controlled and coerced.

I don't feel the need to justify the choices I make with my kids to anyone. I don't spend time trying to convince people. We just keep living this way, and the "proof" is in how alive my kids are, how interested they are in life, how respectful and thoughtful they are, especially as they get older.

I don't doubt that this approach works, because I've gotten to know enough adults and teens who were raised this way, and they are not self-entitled jerks. They are people I want to be around.

There's a line between completely kow-towing to kids, and taking their needs and wants seriously. It's been a whole reworking of the way I view parenting and children, and it's hard to get across in just a few lines.

I hope your kid enjoys his life in college, work, actually getting along with human beings.... It's sad, because parents can't see the future, nor can they take back the past.

[MidasGirl]

I believe that the job of a parent is to guide the child in the best way they know how. Conscious parenting is what appeals to me. Hitting children is not conscious parenting -- it's doing what your parents did because, "look at me, I was spanked and I turned out ok." When people say that I think, you're kidding..... you?....turned out ok?

Anyway, parenting is a very tough job. Most of us aren't prepared for it when it hits us. So we incorporate our frustrations and limitations into it and tell ourselves we are helping discipline the child. You cannot force anyone, even a child to do something they don't want to do. If you do, they will do it only as long as you are stronger than them. As soon as they are physically stronger or feel they can be even a little bit independent, they are outta there and doing whatever they wanted to do anyway.

Personally, I don't believe in un-schooling or other radical ways of parenting. Not because they are "wrong", but because I think different things work for different people.

Conscious parenting isn't about letting kids do whatever they want to do. Children haven't developed the reasoning ability to know the real consequences of things. Even as teenagers they still haven't. Which is why it requires that a parent develops the sharpest "influencing skills" they can muster. Effective consequences and rewards have to be part of parenting though. Why? They are part of life.

But parents will stumble and fall, just like anything else. They key is in picking one self up, dusting yourself and getting back to do it just a bit better. As Maya Angelou says, "you did what you knew how to do, and when you knew better, you did better".

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Would anybody here have done something different?

Yes. Like take him there, and tell him he has freedom to jump in the water if he so chooses. Let him jump in and feel what it's like to almost drown. Be ready to jump in and save him. I guarantee you that would stop him. Then take him for swimming lessons so he learns how to swim safely.

Who said parenting was supposed to be easy?

Now of course at a younger age, you do have to not let your kids run around unsupervised. First off, who lets their 5 year old child be out there alone in front of a busy street? They don't even know when to jump in the street and when not to, no matter how much you teach them to look both ways.

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by jamesbiz

I hope your kid enjoys his life in college, work, actually getting along with human beings

Hey, thanks, because, you know, other humans are NOT part of their life right now! How do you think we're living? They both get along with LOTS of other humans, from ALL walks of life, very very well, already! They're not limited to being stuck inside some box for 8 hours a day, with only same-aged peers. You know, the only time they have a hard time is when another adult feels like they have the right to treat them like crap, because they're kids.

I am at full choice in my life - everything! I work because I choose to, because I like the home we're in, and I like paying my bills. (OK, that took some work, but I'm there, now!) Unschooled kids who've gone on to college BLOW traditionally schooled kids away, because they're there because they CHOOSE to be, because they've consciously chosen that path, because they're excited about what they might learn there. Colleges are actively recruiting unschoolers for that reason!

Honestly! If no one MADE you do anything, would you do it? Do you not choose to do what you do? If you don't, do you not want to create your life so you are at choice in everything?

My kids are getting the gift of starting out that way! They own their bodies, they own their minds, they own their preferences. If they choose to work in an environment where they have a boss, they will CHOOSE to do as the boss wants, if they want to keep that job! They will make that choice, they won't feel as if they have no choice, and feel stuck and resentful.

We aim our compass toward joy, and that's what we reach! How joyful is your life? How excited are you, to be alive?

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

Effective consequences and rewards have to be part of parenting though. Why? They are part of life.

If you're interested in exploring that thought, you might want to read Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn.

Like I said, this type of parenting - which is VERY mindful and "conscious" - has required a whole paradigm shift on my part. We're all much happier people.

And what do you know? In a nice bit o' timing, an unschooling friend posted this article about teenagers who were not coerced into cleaning. No mom-made consequences, no rewards... whattaya know?

[jamesbiz]

Originally Posted by carenkh

If you're interested in exploring that thought, you might want to read Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn.

Like I said, this type of parenting - which is VERY mindful and "conscious" - has required a whole paradigm shift on my part. We're all much happier people.

You submit your kids to what they'll experience in real life. Your comfy world isn't always going to be like that. You won't always have time to stay home with the kids, because you can't always control what happens in your life. Tell me, if your husbands pay gets cut in half, and you have to work, then what? Sure you can stay positive all you want, but not thinking about very real possibilities is just being ignorant to the world around you. Oh and,

PS. I'm all for home schooling.

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by jamesbiz

Tell me, if your husbands pay gets cut in half, and you have to work, then what? Sure you can stay positive all you want, but not thinking about very real possibilities is just being ignorant to the world around you. Oh and,

PS. I'm all for home schooling.

I'm a single, working mom. I am creating the life I want, in every moment. I've been a single, working mom for 6 years.

I choose to live in joy and appreciation for what is, and lots of trust in the future. Fear doesn't have a place in my life. I parent in the now, and guess what? It's helping create a couple kids who have awesome futures!

Having known several unschoolers who returned to school - either by choice, or because there really wasn't another option - I know my kids will be fine should anything like that happen. Even more fine, because of how well they know themselves, how much they trust themselves, how loved they know they are.

Originally Posted by jamesbiz

You submit your kids to what they'll experience in real life.

This IS real life. We are living very real lives. They're not waiting for real life, they're in it.

[jamesbiz]

Originally Posted by carenkh

I'm a single, working mom. I am creating the life I want, in every moment. I've been a single, working mom for 6 years.

I choose to live in joy and appreciation for what is, and lots of trust in the future. Fear doesn't have a place in my life. I parent in the now, and guess what? It's helping create a couple kids who have awesome futures!

Having known several unschoolers who returned to school - either by choice, or because there really wasn't another option - I know my kids will be fine should anything like that happen. Even more fine, because of how well they know themselves, how much they trust themselves, how loved they know they are.



This IS real life. We are living very real lives. They're not waiting for real life, they're in it.

Actually, they are living the life that you made, and the people they interact with are people like you. You said it your self, that you attracted those types of people, and have trouble getting along with parents that think opposite. Imagine how your kids will fare when they have to interact with people who grew up completely opposite of them?

But honestly, this is like arguing with parents about indoctrinating their kids in religion. You've had so much practice coming up with a defense strategy ( because anyone who goes completely radical in one direction will be pretty fluent in defending them selves), that I would be hard pressed to figure out an offense strategy for it, just because I only today learned about unschooling. It's easy with religion. They have a handbook full of stuff for me to use against them. Show me your handbook, and I'll be glad to tear it apart as well.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by jamesbiz

Imagine how your kids will fare when they have to interact with people who grew up completely opposite of them?

From what I know of Caren's kids, I'm very confident that they are, and will be, extremely effective in interacting with people who have beliefs, attitudes, and values other than they're own. They seem to be very good at granting others the freedom to believe as they do without making it mean anything about themselves, and they're much better than the average non-home-schooled kid, I think, at being generous listeners, feeling comfortable with who they are, and not projecting their presumptions onto others.

Those aren't qualities that are generally taught in traditional school, in my experience. Wouldn't it be great if they were?

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by jamesbiz

Actually, they are living the life that you made, and the people they interact with are people like you. You said it your self, that you attracted those types of people, and have trouble getting along with parents that think opposite. Imagine how your kids will fare when they have to interact with people who grew up completely opposite of them?

Most of their friends, here in our neighborhood, are being raised very differently than they are. Actually, ALL of them here are. We have to travel to hang out with other unschoolers. Like I said, we live in the world, the whole world.

I didn't say I had trouble getting along with parents that think opposite - I get along with nearly everyone! But I don't choose to be close friends with people who use very punitive, coercive parenting. Many of my friends parent differently than I do. I'd have no local friends if that weren't true! One common thread is, they all do love their kids. I do not, and will not, hang out with people who actively don't like their kids. Of course we hang out mostly with folks who share our values! I think most people do.

Originally Posted by jamesbiz

But honestly, this is like arguing with parents about indoctrinating their kids in religion. You've had so much practice coming up with a defense strategy ( because anyone who goes completely radical in one direction will be pretty fluent in defending them selves), that I would be hard pressed to figure out an offense strategy for it, just because I only today learned about unschooling. It's easy with religion. They have a handbook full of stuff for me to use against them. Show me your handbook, and I'll be glad to tear it apart as well.

I don't feel like I'm on the defensive - I'm living the life I chose, happily. I'm pointing out where you're mistaken in your assumptions about that life. I love these forums, and the ability to discuss these things rationally.

There's not a handbook, because each situation, each life, each family, each child, is so unique. I'm sure there are some common principles that radically unschooling families use - I'll have to think about that one!

There are a couple of books, if you feel strongly enough about it to order these so you can tear them apart: (heehee, picturing you tearing into the books with your TEETH, pulling pages out )

Parenting a Free Child
Radical Unschooling - A Revolution Has Begun

I didn't use those books as handbooks, more like... support. My handbook is what I know in my heart, and what I see in my kids' lives. Right now, I see - happy, healthy, connected, loving, helpful, thoughtful, funny, fully alive, deeply caring guys, interested in and excited by life. If that should change, we'd change what we were doing.

[jamesbiz]

I have a full day ahead of me, so I won't get into it right away lol but I'll give you one thing. When I'm expecting you to turn around and go crazy on me and use your emotions instead of logic for the way I'm accusing you, you don't... Usually it's a lot easier to argue ( and win) with people when they are more defensive lol.

[Plays With Life]

Originally Posted by ssandra

I have 3 adult cousins who were raised like that... 1. They are not happy 2. They are not capable of making good (business) decisions 3. They alianate people because they always take, and never give.

That is the type of person such a child has a higher probabilty of becoming.

But, this was a type of extreme non-cohersion. They could litterally do everything they wanted and if they did something bad they never had to see the consequenses of it, they were just told "now, that is not very nice of you, you should not do that" or something like that.

Maybe this is because of the sheltering from the way other people feel about the things they did. I still don't think it was the non-coercion that caused them to become unhappy.

[Plays With Life]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Within your theory of raising children, how would they suggest that you would handle it?

Remember that talking didn't work...

I'm not sure I have a theory of it, just some ideas. One, I might take him out into the water and let him go for a few seconds, so he could experience the danger first hand. Two, I might just give him swimming lessons so it wouldn't be so dangerous anymore. Three, I might get him a pet frog so the motivation to go over there could be removed. There are probably some others.

[Plays With Life]

Originally Posted by carenkh

The point isn't that being non-coercive in this area means they'll ALWAYS make the healthiest choice; it means they know the choice is THEIRS. They will never eat something to spite me, they won't hoard unhealthy food because they're afraid it will get taken away. Kids who are controlled in their home who come to our house almost always eat much, much more junk than my kids do. They'll eat a whole bag of chips because they finally CAN. My kids will take a few and that'll be enough for them. They listen to their bodies. They are the authority on their own bodies.

Totally. I think that's the key point for me: the person I'm raising has the authority to make their own choices about their life.

There's actually been research into this .. kids were just given all the candy they wanted, and told they could eat as much as they wanted, every day. For an initial period they pigged out. Then, after a few days, they stopped going crazy and ate the candy in moderation. They learned, naturally, from experience, that too much candy doesn't feel good, so they stopped doing it.

Another thing is: does overeating sweets every now and then really have a permanent, detrimental effect on a person's happiness? I'm not sure what people are really protecting their kids from, anyways, when they keep them from candy. Or junk food, or whatever. If it affects the kid's life negatively, the kid will learn that by experiencing it and stop WANTING the candy and junk food. It seems like keeping the kid from learning that is just .. backwards.

[Plays With Life]

Originally Posted by jamesbiz

I hope your kid enjoys his life in college, work, actually getting along with human beings.... It's sad, because parents can't see the future, nor can they take back the past.

What are you saying will happen to the kid?