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| Social & Relationships Social skills, friends, dating, sex, seduction, monogamy, polyamory, marriage, alternative relationships, soul mates, parenting, children, family life, education |
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| | #1 (permalink) |
| Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: South Korea
Posts: 6
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Greetings everyone. This is my first post. I’ve been reading this site for a few years, and it’s finally now, in an impetuous act of overwhelm, that I’m deciding to move from lurker to contributor. Anyway. I’m writing because I need ‘objective’ advice. I’m longwinded and I fear trying to relay the ‘story’ would be a tedious read and deter response. So I’m just going to ask my question after providing a bit of context…but if the story is needed in order to receive more sound advice I’ll definitely try to summarize. So, my partner was unfaithful. As always in these scenarios, there was a lot of deceit and manipulation. On my side, there was a lot of denying of my intuition/emotions. I’m *very* left-brained and unemotional (or so I’ve been described). So, not having any hard evidence, it was difficult for me to accept the legitimacy of my insecurity—causing me to persist in the relationship. She was very mysterious and closed off—and I wanted to penetrate that. I wanted to KNOW her. But my attempts to dig were always met with suspicion and defensiveness. I was frustrated, but I felt like I couldn’t walk away without regret because it was the first time I felt attracted to someone who I also respected as an intellectual equal. (I know that sounds arrogant, but it’s the truth of how I was feeling) . Actually, a frequent criticism from her was that I’m arrogant and judgmental—so I wanted to prove to both her and myself that I was either not those things or could transcend them. So even though I found her personality very disagreeable at times (secretive, immature, manipulative)—I endured these things out of some misguided attempt to love her unconditionally. Also in an attempt to grow into a less judgmental person in general. It’s been a bit over a year. And I’ve done a lot of self-examination, yet I’m still failing to see what the hidden message/benefit/lesson was. I still feel very connected to the situation. I still keep ruminating, analyzing, judging despite my conscious efforts to ‘let it go.’ I’ve recited all types of "higher wisdom" to myself—trying to take 100% responsibility for what happened. But my resistance toward her is still alive. It’s not heart ache that I feel. I didn’t even really get to know her as a person in the year that we were together. It’s more like an extremely bruised ego. I’m embarrassed that for a ‘smart’ person, that I was so easily deceived and manipulated. I feel comodified.. used. Or rather I’m choosing to feel that way, however unconsciously. I also feel frustration that she still appeals to me. She’s been pouring out her heart sporadically ever since, proclaiming she’s changed—and it gives my ego some satisfaction that she still wants me, or is saying she does. For awhile, I was indignantly refusing communication. But now..I’m opening myself up to hear her perspective. Genuinely, I’d like to empathize. I’d like to understand why she behaved the way she did. So I sent her a tactful 'get it all out' e-mail (e-mail because we're in different countries now). But I also feel like I’m opening myself up to more lies and manipulation. Especially, in the format of an e-mail where she has time to edit and mold her words accordingly. I’m just looking for an alternative way to perceive the situation. I feel like I’m all knee deep in it and can’t see it for what it is. I feel trapped in this consciousness and it’s seriously draining my energy and my ability to move forward with my life the way I would like to. So I’m appealing to the very wise and intelligent people in this forum. I want to know: How do you distinguish the uncomfortablity of growth vs. the uncomfortability of walking down the entirely wrong path? If you’ve carved out an ideal future self with all the traits and characteristics you’d like to possess, is it inauthentic to act from that space if you’re not there yet? Is this the same as repressing? I feel like part of my problems in many areas of my life is that I always try to think of the 'right' or 'enlightened' way to look at things rather than just accept how I'm feeling. I don't take the time to just sit with things as they arise. I immediately try to solve them. What do you do when you understand something intellectually but fail to internalize it? fail to really live from it without having to recite reminders? And more specific to my situation, is there any worth in this rehashing of events with her? Can any good come of it or am I opening myself up to more drama and confusion? I thought I would have deeper understanding in choosing to hear her out..but I just feel 'caught up' all over again as I anticipate her response. And finally, why is it that she still appeals to me? Is it the unsolved mystery? Is my self-esteem really low that I would engage with someone who has treated me so disrepectfully? Is it ever advisable to just 'cut someone off' to protect yourself? or is it that cowardly? This ended up rather long anyway. Thank you in advance if you’ve read all the way through and special thanks if you offer feedback. All advice welcome. Particularly, I'd like to hear from Angela. I've always found your advice to others in the relationship department eye opening..but I've been unable to apply those pieces of wisdom to my own situation successfully. |
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| | #2 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 300
| If you’ve carved out an ideal future self with all the traits and characteristics you’d like to possess, is it inauthentic to act from that space if you’re not there yet? Is this the same as repressing? I never bought into the phrase "fake it till you make it". Getting to where you want to be means accepting where you are and working on yourself to the point where you naturally over time get to that state. If you 'act as if' you will ignore everything that could have been done to get you there. For example, you do something that your ideal self wouldn't do but you ignore and repress it in an attempt to keep up that image. The incongruence will bottle up and explode over time. The pretending will actually hurt and hinder your process. Know your ideal and forget it along the way. What do you do when you understand something intellectually but fail to internalize it? fail to really live from it without having to recite reminders? Just go with it. Knowing what you should do is not the same as feeling that this is the right thing to do-accept it. The mind will work faster than your emotions and you need to allow time before your emotions catch up. In addition, when you learn a lesson fully your emotions and your mind will understand it completely. Many times I have understood what I needed to do but didn't because I didn't feel it emotionally. Every time that happened I just continued to fail the lesson until it hit me on a deep emotional level. is there any worth in this rehashing of events with her? Can any good come of it or am I opening myself up to more drama and confusion? Absolutely. Personal growth is not 100% positive, happy, fun times. The most growth you will get doesn't come from the positive but from the negative. You are talking to a girl who is obviously bad for you so that means you still have a few more lessons to learn. Once again, you understand intellectually it's a bad idea but you don't emotionally feel it. I suggest going through it again (despite what your mind says) until you reach that point where letting her go is NO longer a struggle. Trust me, that moment will come when saying good bye isn't met with doubt and regret. That point comes only when you fully experienced what you were meant to learn. If you find yourself still drawn to her it means that you haven't fully learned everything that you can. I know there is probably about a million lessons to take away from this but here are a few I came up with: -Honest is not an option in my relationships. If I feel like a girl I'm dating is withholding information I don't accept 'I don't want to talk about it" or "what, don't you trust me? If you trusted me you wouldn't ask so many questions" as an answer. I will pry her open for the answers and if she is completely unwilling to talk then the relationship is over. If I can't trust you, this won't work. -If someone gets defensive then there is something they are hiding. The best way to get away with anything that lacks integrity and honesty is to go on the offense. My favorite is "what, don't you trust me?" This works because it draws on the other persons fear of losing them. Every suspicion can be quarreled when the other person doesn't want you to break up with them. Your fear will cause you to doubt your own intuition. Get to work on that fear and you will not get "betrayed" again. -Dealing with manipulation: Women are good arguers aren't they? You could see a guy comment on her facebook about having a good time last night and still be able to get away with it. The way around a manipulator is to do one of two things: notice their manipulation tactics and 2) have a core set of relationship principles. If you have a boundaries or rules to a relationship there is no way for a person to manipulate you. Here are some: Honesty/respect is not an option. Treat my heart with kindness. So, if she is critical of you (ie nagging) she is breaking both rules. She could try to talk her way out of it and turn it around on you but she has no argument because the rules are set in place. When you combine a good arguer with fear of lose (you fear losing her) it's very easy to get off track and forget that the other person did wrong. You might even end up feeling guilty for being mad at you (crazy as that sounds it happens a lot). When you stay focused on those two rules in an argument the other person has no ground to stand on. They can say whatever they want to but it doesn't change the fact that they broke the rules. It's important to establish the rules if you decide to get back with her. She says she has changed but if you stick to those two principles you will soon find out whether or not it's the truth. If she absolutely refuses to accept responsibility when she breaks the rules then you know your answer as to whether or not she changed. Check out an article I wrote on cheating at my website: Being Cheated On |
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| | #3 (permalink) | ||
| Banned Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 84
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Whats wrong with judging? A wise man HAS to eventually cast judgement. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. Infact, I think that she may have shamed you into not judging her for her own self interest--but, at the end of the day she started respecting you less because you didn't stand up to judge her, which may have made her cheat more. Just a thought. Quote:
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| | #4 (permalink) |
| Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: South Korea
Posts: 6
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Alex, Thank you for your in depth response. I visited your website. I found myself nodding along vigorously. I think you drew a very accurate portrait of all phases. I never bought into the phrase "fake it till you make it". Getting to where you want to be means accepting where you are and working on yourself to the point where you naturally over time get to that state. If you 'act as if' you will ignore everything that could have been done to get you there. I guess the part that always trips me up is the working on yourself. What does that look like exactly? If it doesn't mean 'fake it til' you make it' ..where does the effort/work come in? If I KNOW better, but I don't do better..how do I progress? For example, you do something that your ideal self wouldn't do but you ignore and repress it in an attempt to keep up that image. The incongruence will bottle up and explode over time. The pretending will actually hurt and hinder your process. Know your ideal and forget it along the way. You're absolutely right about this. Except, I experienced it in the reciprocal way. I did the thing I thought my ideal self would do. But the result was the same. The feeling in your solar plexus that you talked about on your site was dead on. But I'm so stuck on trying to be 'accepting' and 'unconditionally loving' ..states that I haven't yet achieved, that it blew up in my face. It was a double denial: First, denial of what I was experiencing internally and also, denial of what I was witnessing externally. It's incredible how deluded I was. But I wasn't intentionally pretending.. I thought I was trying to consciously instill change. In addition, when you learn a lesson fully your emotions and your mind will understand it completely. Many times I have understood what I needed to do but didn't because I didn't feel it emotionally. Every time that happened I just continued to fail the lesson until it hit me on a deep emotional level. I agree with this fully also. I know the source of my turmoil is lack of understanding. So you believe there's nothing to do but keep failing the lesson? There's nothing for me to do until I encounter the same thing in a different manifestation? You are talking to a girl who is obviously bad for you so that means you still have a few more lessons to learn. Once again, you understand intellectually it's a bad idea but you don't emotionally feel it. Yeah, that's exactly it. Thank you for articulating it that way. I suggest going through it again (despite what your mind says) until you reach that point where letting her go is NO longer a struggle. Trust me, that moment will come when saying good bye isn't met with doubt and regret. That point comes only when you fully experienced what you were meant to learn. If you find yourself still drawn to her it means that you haven't fully learned everything that you can. I think I have a very serious problem going against my mind. I'm not much of a 'feeling' person. My emotions seem like these slippery, transient things that can't be trusted. But clearly, my mind can't be trusted either. I will follow through. I sincerely want to learn what was meant to be learned, regardless of whatever painful form that it takes. -Honest is not an option in my relationships. If I feel like a girl I'm dating is withholding information I don't accept 'I don't want to talk about it" or "what, don't you trust me? If you trusted me you wouldn't ask so many questions" as an answer. I will pry her open for the answers and if she is completely unwilling to talk then the relationship is over. If I can't trust you, this won't work. Once upon a time I, too, had this standard. But I so easily catered to her claims that my questioning was abrasive and intrusive. -If someone gets defensive then there is something they are hiding. The best way to get away with anything that lacks integrity and honesty is to go on the offense. My favorite is "what, don't you trust me?" I'll have to use that. Dealing with manipulation: Women are good arguers aren't they? You could see a guy comment on her facebook about having a good time last night and still be able to get away with it. She was also a lawyer. I didn't know what I was up against. Seriously, I would go into an argument so convinced of my perspective..with supporting details even, and yet, I would walk away distrusting my own perspective. The way around a manipulator is to do one of two things: notice their manipulation tactics and 2) have a core set of relationship principles. Yeah, I still can't see which specific tactics she used. I made it very easy for her though..sharing very intimate things concerning my vulnerabilities, fears, needs, etc. So, if she is critical of you (ie nagging) she is breaking both rules. She could try to talk her way out of it and turn it around on you but she has no argument because the rules are set in place. The criticism she 'offered' wasn't necessarily nagging. At the time, I thought it was constructive feedback. I've heard before that I'm arrogant, etc. etc. So, I found some validity in the criticism--unaware of her motivation in sharing it. I think, as Grindin below suggested, her intention was to manipulate me into accepting her inappropriate behavior, not to help me grow. Do you think criticism can be delivered in a way that wouldn't be breaking your rule for respect and kindness? When you combine a good arguer with fear of lose (you fear losing her) it's very easy to get off track and forget that the other person did wrong. You might even end up feeling guilty for being mad at you (crazy as that sounds it happens a lot). Yeah, sounds about right. It's important to establish the rules if you decide to get back with her. She says she has changed but if you stick to those two principles you will soon find out whether or not it's the truth. I have no intention of getting back with her. We broke off communication pretty abruptly due to the dramatic way in which things culminated. I found out months later she actually moved in with the other person--which ended rather violently. Now, she claims to be reformed or something having felt 'karma's sting' ...I'm not initiating contact based on the premise that she's changed, but because we never had that whole 'closure' conversation. I still have unanswered questions. And like you note in your article, I may never get my answers answered. But I think there's worth in her perspective. I think it could contribute to my own understanding to know what she was needing, fearing, feeling, etc that caused her to behave the way she did. Rather than just burning that bridge and indignantly writing her off as a jerk. Of course, this all relies on the premise that she's actually brought awareness into her actions--regardless of whether she's actually evolved or not. I'm not holding my breath, but it's worth a try, I think. I did outline standards for our communication, and I will certainly take your advice in monitoring her response for signs of deceit, manipulation, etc. If nothing's changed, I'll just have to concede that understanding may be something inaccessible to me now. Thank you again for such a thoughtful, detailed response. I truly appreciate you taking the time. |
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| | #5 (permalink) | |||
| Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: South Korea
Posts: 6
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I think you can discern without judging. I haven't personally learned how to do this authentically, but I think it's possible. And all of what you say may very well be true. But she shouldn't have to look to me, (or anyone else for that matter) to judge her actions. She should have some type of internal self-correcting mechanism for that. It's not within my power to apply my standards to anyone but myself. Quote:
Thank you again for your words. | |||
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| | #6 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 300
| What does that look like exactly? If it doesn't mean 'fake it til' you make it' ..where does the effort/work come in? If I KNOW better, but I don't do better..how do I progress? This is a complex question with many levels and many exceptions but I'll try my best to keep it short as possible. With certain things (particularly the spiritual aspects, high levels of consciousness etc.) the work is done through in depth analysis of yourself and understanding the lessons that is thrown at you. Awareness will be the effort and the full integration of that new awareness (knowing the "right" thing to do) may be instant but also may take time. Since you know but don't feel the answer it's only a matter of time before both are completely integrated. You did the work into improving and the improvement itself comes passively. I have always thought of spirituality as removing boundaries rather "improving". You take away the parts of yourself that hinder yourself to open to the diving/god/whatever you want to call it. The work on developing your spiritual side comes from meditation, self awareness exercises, forgiving yourself and so on. You work on those things then wait for higher spiritual awareness to come in naturally. Spiritual development is slightly different than personal growth (both can be combined and very useful). P.D can for the most part can be charted and watched. You get to work on things like developing discipline or giving up caffeine and you can see the results and if you are doing it right. But I'm so stuck on trying to be 'accepting' and 'unconditionally loving' ..states that I haven't yet achieved, Those are great things to have but horrible when it comes to relationship advice. Love them unconditionally but when they become detrimental to your life and your growth YOU need to love them from a distance. If you allow them to treat you with disrespect so often you will find that your heart will close greatly and your ability to love them unconditionally will slowly decline. The ideal in a relationship is to simply love the person and have no need for rules or boundaries but that's not reality. If you live from the ideal and not accept reality (that ego is still strong in many) you will end up very unhappy and with miserable relationships. The way you do this is to love the person, keep their ego in check through rules and boundaries and work towards to the ideal of simply being able to love them without the disrespect of the ego. If you work from the ideal from the start the relationship is doomed to fail. If on the other hand you work from reality (acknowledging the ego) you can work towards achieving the ideal (not needing boundaries at all) you give your relationship a chance. So, if her or your ego gets out of control you remind them of the rules. They get upset and after the storm calms down you can talk openly about what happened and they can understand why they had an ego attack. The talking afterwards allows them and you grow closer towards the ideal or unconditional love within the relationship. (hope that makes sense) If she (talking about any woman you meet) can acknowledge her ego and come to understand where it came from then she is a keeper. Know that the ego is NOT who they are. Love and accept them (the self that resides beneath the fear/insecurities/ego) but never accept their ego's. So you believe there's nothing to do but keep failing the lesson? There's nothing for me to do until I encounter the same thing in a different manifestation? More or less, yes. This requires a great deal of letting go of one's desire to control life. You didn't emotionally learn it so it's not the right time for you to learn it. If it was the right time for you to learn the lesson then you would have (remember everything is perfect) but you didn't. Learn to be passive and patient when those moments come. The more important the lesson the more intense the means your higher self will teach you will be. I'll give you a personal example. I was dating this girl once who was absolutely horrible for a year. It took me about 6 months for me to intellectually realize that she wasn't right for me and that I couldn't tolerate her cheating (she was dating two other guys at the time). It took me another 6 months before it emotionally hit me and I had an 'ah-ha' moment. When that moment came I felt no urge to be with her or even talk to her. Before that I would break up with her and vow to never speak to her again. It was only a matter of time before we would speak again and fall back into the same pattern. When the ah ha moment hit there was no urge to show her my pain. There was no struggle not to talk to her. No more passive agressivness. I walked away emotionally and physically without a second thought, even though I knew this is what I should have done 6 months ago. Right now if I recognize a lesson to learn but don't fully 'get it' I will let it go. In the past I would try and force myself to get it but that only created delay. So now, I just accept that I when I'm completely ready to learn it will come to me. I look at it this way, the lesson is like a letter from your higher self and your H.S sends a messenger to tell you that some important lesson is coming. The messenger doesn't tell you when but only that it will be coming. I could either sit in anticipation of I could let it go and wait for the exact time that it's supposed to come. It's the same as waiting for Christmas to come. You can try your best to make the days go by quickly but Christmas will still be on the 25th of December. Set the intention to grow, do the things you can (meditation, living life) and wait for the other stuff to come on it's on in time. You only get life lessons when you are ready for them and not a moment earlier. That could mean you are ready for them after meditating so many days. It could also mean that you are ready to learn only when you have gone through an immense amount of pain. This happens because your higher self is very smart. It knows that if it sends you an important lesson too soon you won't be able to comprehend it's value or meaning. The lessons you are learning today are only possible through the life experiences and lessons you have had before. I think I have a very serious problem going against my mind. I'm not much of a 'feeling' person. My emotions seem like these slippery, transient things that can't be trusted. But clearly, my mind can't be trusted either. I will follow through. I sincerely want to learn what was meant to be learned, regardless of whatever painful form that it takes. Letting go of your mind is going to be difficult for you but I'm not suggesting trusting emotions like anger or jealousy. What I mean by feeling it emotionally is you feel the answer, not just think it. It's that ah-ha moment where there is no doubt in your mind or your heart as to what you should or should not do. You can combine both the mind and your emotions to further your spiritual development. Let's say you feel a strong emotion like anger at something someone does. You can use your mind to question that anger to get to the true source of that anger. "Why did I feel this? What inside of myself is not congruent?" She was also a lawyer. I didn't know what I was up against. Seriously, I would go into an argument so convinced of my perspective..with supporting details even, and yet, I would walk away distrusting my own perspective. yeah, you didn't have much of a chance. The fact that she is a lawyer should have been a big warning sign for you-Lawyer is Latin for liar. Regardless, if you have your standards for relationships firmly in place she can't argue her way out of it. Do you think criticism can be delivered in a way that wouldn't be breaking your rule for respect and kindness? Absolutely, 'offer advice only when it's asked for'. For example, if we met in person and you were telling me about everything and I felt and urge to offer advice I would say something like "hey, do you mind if I offer you some advice?" I would get your permission before saying anything. I would do this because it's the respectful thing to do but also because it's damn annoying to hear someone say things you didn't ask for-unsolicited advice. Also, you need them to agree to the advice or they won't really listen. I ask them 'are you sure? are you really sure?" I'll get them to agree at least three times. It helps bring down the defensiveness that comes with offering advice. If they agree at least three times and then argue their mind will become incongruent. You can use the same thing when you are setting the boundaries in the beginning of the relationship. "Do you want a relationship like this?" "are you sure? are you absolutely 100% positive?" Then when they break the rules (which WILL happen) you can say "you agreed to them. Were you lying to me? because honesty is not an option in my relationship" Now they have two choices 1) admit to being a liar or 2) own up to their mistakes. So you either have someone who owns up to their wrong doings or someone who is a liar. Either way it will become clear what type of person you are dealing with. You can use the same thing when she tries to be guarded when you ask her questions. Make one of your rules "openness and willing to share with the rest of the group" a rule. If she doesn't then she's a liar by agreeing one day then turning around and doing something completely different. It was good talking to you. I have a contact box when you have more questions Cheers, Alex Strandberg |
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| | #7 (permalink) | ||
| Banned Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 84
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Why put yourself in a negative situation? For growth? Bah. Only one life, bro. Doesn't waste your time. Couldn't grow more and have more fun in a better situation? I DO understand your wanting to prove to yourself that you can deal with this. Everyone prolly can--but, at the end of the day...it's more wise to cherry pick your battles. Last edited by Grindin; 07-21-2009 at 06:39 PM. | ||
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| | #8 (permalink) | |
| Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: South Korea
Posts: 6
| Quote:
Wow. You've given me a lot to absorb. Particularly about the 'how' of growth. It seems so obvious now that you say it, in the way that you say it. It's been like my mind has been stuck in this tape loop. You've effectively helped to empower me in my attempts to 'snip' the tape. I'm in full agreement about the meditation/self-awareness..I'm actually heading to an 11 day silent meditation retreat in a few weeks. l'm looking forward to it. Thank you for the investment of your thought/energy. You've given me some words to live by. I appreciate you and your generosity. | |
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| | #9 (permalink) | ||
| Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: South Korea
Posts: 6
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Absolutely. It's as silly to me as it is to you that I require placing my hand in the fire (again) to know that it's hot. But denying that I want to hasn't served me either. As the title suggest..I'm still ruminating. I've sought and entered a 'better situation,' but I still feel haunted/bound by my previous relationship even though I've been separated from her both in time and space for over a year. What have you done in the past when your mind and your intuition/emotion has directed you in divergent ways? | ||
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