Seduction vs Directness - the problem of human diversity

[Kean]

I have been following the debate of using seduction methods (PUA, NLP, etc.) versus a more direct and honest approach to relationships and wanted to open a few questions.

My conclusion is that everything depends on your final objective. However, specific seduction methods can expand your adaptability to more situations than when you're sticking to your own point of view. To put it simply: those methods help you understand others better from different religions, social backgrounds, cultures, upbringing, income levels, value systems etc. They make you strongly aware that you are not the only person in this world with valid point of view!

The first blog I discovered about this issue was Alex Strandbergs' "Inner Game Reframe", and as I saw that it is connected to this forum I thought there would be more people familiar with it here to discuss these issues, and I will reference to some of his arguments.

A common mistake is that many factors are thrown into the same box. Using seduction methods doesn't necessarily mean adhering to the sectarian lifestyle of seduction communities. As a matter of fact, I registered on a seduction forum only a few times and always left because I was disgusted by their attitude. That is plain marketing and brainwashing, not very different from Scientology and other new religions targeting your cash. Whenever the PUAs are unable to discuss and debate properly, they find excuses to prove that there is no need to discuss and debate. That's analogous to autocratic regimes and religions (cyber-bullying?).
I also feel confused when they don't provide any support for specific situations. While I expected them to be a kind of "technical support" base for the seduction methods, they merely dictate the dogmas of their religion and boast their results.

All of this doesn't mean that the seduction methods by themselves are bad. Let's look at things separately.

I am from Italy and first explored seduction as a teenager struggling with a specific situation. Unlike most typical members I have come across in the PUA scene, I rarely had difficulties attracting women. I felt problems when I started moving around the world due to my parents' employment. And then there were several girls with whom things seem to go on very well, but then ended abruptly. Why?

One thing I have never heard in most dating advice (not only seduction communities, but also conventional advice such as mens' magazines or friends and family advice) is that "women" are not one big category of beings that must be attracted. Firstly, they are individuals, and secondly, each of them belongs to a vast number of groups that make the women different from each other.
What I can say after all these years is that "women" in the fashion industry of the United Kingdom behave according to entirely different natural laws from "women" who study at a German college.
There's a myriad of different factors ranging from culture, upbringing and income background that shape these individual womens' life values, objectives in life and daily behavior (including perception, stereotypes, etc.).

You don't need to travel around the world to understand that there are huge gaps in understanding that are caused by these social factors! I noticed the same difficulties in my home-city back in Italy when interacting with women who dress only a specific way and listen to a specific type of music, or when talking to computer nerd girls.

This is where I believe that seduction methods became important.

What exactly do I mean by methods?
I first read about seduction on an Italian website which emphasized a lot the communication issues and NLP. It contained several excerpts from basic communication techniques to more advanced NLP techniques, in which typical Marketing&Communication situations are extrapolated to the interaction with women.
The same techniques are also documented in the typical PUA basic guides, but they are often overshadowed by other topics such as how to stay cocky&funny, alphamale, have a confident attitude etc.
The methods by themselves are mere communication techniques: pacing body language, changing tone, using specific questions to elicit values, reframing and understand the other person and explain yourself as best as possible - the result being a wonderful communication flow and EMPATHY.

I tried one after the other, and from the very first day they worked for me. By "worked" I don't mean that I went to bed with every woman I met, but that I slowly started creating more affinity with women who were very different from me - and this helped me a lot in the long term.
The results spoke for themselves. I would have never been able to rationally explain why pacing the body language of a fashion model at a bus stop would make her approach me but it simply worked (and I did it in front of my highschool mates; that first day I was so confidence-boosted but I got too excited and carried away by her beauty that I started making immature jokes... hey, I was only 17!).

Then, I entered university and studied psychology. From what I have learned, there is no scientific evidence for any of the existing seduction methods, except for studies in the field of communication. In general, "seduction" is not very researched yet, so everything I am saying here is mere personal experience.

What Psychology did help me understand, however, is that normally (i.e. on average), it is extremely difficult to create a deeper romance (or even affinity) with a person who is entirely different from you (in culture, value system, interests, daily activity, etc.). Some people say that opposites attract, but that happens in special cases or films --- I feel that the way I used the seduction methods contributed to creating such special cases, and I am very happy about that.

Let me return to the main issue:

On the one hand, I think that Alex Strandberg's "Inner Game Reframe" (IGR) and similar websites/advice are fantastic at helping you achieve individual integrity. Being self-reliant, finding core values, which I understand can often be neglected due to mass media and brainwashing such as the seduction communities.
On the other hand, I believe that it is important in life to understand others and being able to interact with them regardless of differences and stereotypes.

I promptly disagree with the idea that if a woman rejects you, she doesn't deserve you. That's just a lie to preserve self-confidence after a rejection.
The truth is you didn't fully understand her motives and intentions, or potentially whether she had any prejudice she didn't speak about. She is as human and as valuable as you regardless of whether she goes to bed with you or not!
(I noticed that both PUA and IGR emphasize the "plenty of fish" argument to overcome rejection.)

A common theme in IGR is the emphasis on personal confidence, self-love and individual power. While IGR is more personalized than PUA (focus on finding your mission in life), such an attitude may still lead a person to feel "I am right and others are wrong (So if she rejects me, she must have done it because she is wrong and thus she doesn't deserve me)!" - which is not so different from the PUA notion of "alpha male".

Is it such a bad thing to like and try understangin someone different?

Integrity and self-love are important factors in life, but what about expansion and open-mindedness, going beyond oneself?
Trying to understand a womans' ideas and values doesn't necessarily mean that you fear her rejection.

Let me conclude with a trivial example:

In Italy, it is absolutely normal to give roses to female friends. In Germany, I once gave 4 roses to 4 different female friends, and one of them (whom I liked) got very angry about that and didn't speak to me for 2 months... she basically dodged me whenever I tried to speak to her and explain directly and openly.

Both IGR and PUA communities would probably say that she didn't deserve me, because she rejected me and because she's culturally ignorant. However, I strongly believe that a cultural prejudice or misunderstanding should not be a barrier to relationships! Seduction methods helped me overcome them, creating a basis of mutual understanding.

I'd like to hear all your comments on everything I wrote and I'd appreciate all criticism and ideas, including what you think about relationships with women with entirely different social/economic/cultural/etc. backgrounds.

Using the terminology of Alex Strandberg's IGR (which, I repeat, is very useful for those who are searching their "self"), I think that my "mission" is to understand people from different backgrounds and help where such differences create conflict or misunderstanding.

There is a lot of misunderstanding in love - not just between nations, but also between two boroughs of the same city.

[SpittN4Cash]

Hey Kean,

Its interesting that we have a few things in common, I too found the seduction community at an early age and I am happy to say that Ive been hooked for 8 years now. I also have naturally had an easy time with women, but I was smart enough to realize that my looks alone wont always attract women so I got into pick up arts/ venusian arts.

I didnt go to school for psych, but Ive study many of the recommended readings, books like "the game" "mystery method" "the art of seduction" "intro to NLP" "How to win friends and influence people" plus many many more so Im pretty knowledgeable on the subject.

I would definitely recommend that you pick up the art of seduction so that you will have a better definition of what seduction really is, how its been used in history, and how you can use it to better yourself.

to me seduction is more than something to help you understand where other people comes from. what you experienced is called "culture shock" from living in so many places while growing up...

The seduction methods were created so that the average guy can create a standard routine for meeting and attracting women at will.

Im really happy that you had all of these eye opening revelations, but thats not what pick up nor seduction is about.

[SpittN4Cash]

Originally Posted by Kean

I promptly disagree with the idea that if a woman rejects you, she doesn't deserve you. That's just a lie to preserve self-confidence after a rejection.
The truth is you didn't fully understand her motives and intentions, or potentially whether she had any prejudice she didn't speak about. She is as human and as valuable as you regardless of whether she goes to bed with you or not!
(I noticed that both PUA and IGR emphasize the "plenty of fish" argument to overcome rejection.)

The truth is that you dont have to understand her motives. All you need to understand is YOUR motives, and the structure of the game in order to work things in your favor. She will follow her emotions as she always does, so if you come off as a nice guy she will trust her vibe from you, if you come off as a creep she will trust her vibe from you. maybe you should step back and see if there is something you could change about your self in order to start attracting the type of women you desire

I believe that you are too emotionally attached to the outcome of what happens when you approach women, you need to really realize that "it doesnt matter" and there really ARE "plenty of fish in the sea" open your minds eye to the abundance that surrounds you. Rejection isnt the end of the world.

Originally Posted by Kean

A common theme in IGR is the emphasis on personal confidence, self-love and individual power. While IGR is more personalized than PUA (focus on finding your mission in life), such an attitude may still lead a person to feel "I am right and others are wrong (So if she rejects me, she must have done it because she is wrong and thus she doesn't deserve me)!" - which is not so different from the PUA notion of "alpha male".

the ALPHA MALE of the group is simply the person who controls the frame and or social dynamic. for instance you may be at a theater and there is a very funny comedian on stage, all eyes are on him so in that moment he is the alpha male of the group (AMOG) , and if any hecklers give him any **** he busts on them right back (busting back is called AMOG'ing) which is simply him demonstrating his confidence...its one thing to say you are confident and another thing to actually demonstrate your confidence. but definitely work on your attitude and make sure you are only showing high value male behavior.

Originally Posted by Kean

Let me conclude with a trivial example:

In Italy, it is absolutely normal to give roses to female friends. In Germany, I once gave 4 roses to 4 different female friends, and one of them (whom I liked) got very angry about that and didn't speak to me for 2 months... she basically dodged me whenever I tried to speak to her and explain directly and openly.

Ok, one of the pick up artists biggest rules is to never buy gifts, flowers, drinks or dinners for women we have not slept with.

Originally Posted by Kean

Both IGR and PUA communities would probably say that she didn't deserve me, because she rejected me and because she's culturally ignorant. However, I strongly believe that a cultural prejudice or misunderstanding should not be a barrier to relationships! Seduction methods helped me overcome them, creating a basis of mutual understanding.

No, what the seduction community would tell you is that rejection is just a feeling that only lasts a moment, and once you get over any fears or negative emotions associated with rejection, then you can move on. Whether she deserved you or not is irrelevant. its about what YOU want, and what METHOD you use to get her.

I would say brush up on your seduction skills, also peep the mystery method dvds, im sure you can find them on torrentz or limewire

[Kean]

Originally Posted by SpittN4Cash

to me seduction is more than something to help you understand where other people comes from. what you experienced is called "culture shock" from living in so many places while growing up...

The seduction methods were created so that the average guy can create a standard routine for meeting and attracting women at will.

Im really happy that you had all of these eye opening revelations, but thats not what pick up nor seduction is about.

Hey

Not just culture shock. Also gender shock, social class shock, subculture shock or individuals shock

The main purpose of my post was to show that seduction by itself is not necessarily bad if you pursue genuine long-term relationships based on honesty and mutual understanding.

Secondly, I wanted to point out that there is no one single way to have success in a long term relationship with women who have an entirely different social, economic, ideologic and/or cultural background from yours, and that one needs a deeper understanding of the different subjective positions of the different individuals in order to
1) understand them;
2) foster a deeper relationship with them;
and that specific seduction methods (eliciting values, NLP, communication techniques, etc.) help one achieve these two objectives, especially when differences may cause misunderstanding, stereotypes and prejudices.

I am aware that most seduction communities do not aim at long-term relationships

[Kean]

Originally Posted by SpittN4Cash

She will follow her emotions as she always does, so if you come off as a nice guy she will trust her vibe from you, if you come off as a creep she will trust her vibe from you.

But what makes her prefer a nice guy or a creepy guy? There is a deeper need to everything. e.g. she prefers the creepy guy only because she is creepy as well. If you understand this, you can understand what she truly needs: someone like her.

I believe that you are too emotionally attached to the outcome of what happens when you approach women, you need to really realize that "it doesnt matter" and there really ARE "plenty of fish in the sea" open your minds eye to the abundance that surrounds you. Rejection isnt the end of the world.

[...]

No, what the seduction community would tell you is that rejection is just a feeling that only lasts a moment, and once you get over any fears or negative emotions associated with rejection, then you can move on. Whether she deserved you or not is irrelevant. its about what YOU want, and what METHOD you use to get her.

It isn't rejection by itself that I fight against, but any cultural or value misunderstanding (including stereotypes) that can lead to rejection.
Example: a girl hates psychologists because she thinks they always overanalyse and never spend time enjoying. She may be right, but what if ONE psychologist who likes her is NOT like that and she still rejects him just because of the stereotype?
(self-fulfilling prophecy will lead her to keep looking for evidence for her belief, and sometimes the stereotype might be so strong that whatever he does will make her believe that he's like all other psychologists)

the ALPHA MALE of the group is simply the person who controls the frame and or social dynamic. for instance you may be at a theater and there is a very funny comedian on stage, all eyes are on him so in that moment he is the alpha male of the group (AMOG) , and if any hecklers give him any **** he busts on them right back (busting back is called AMOG'ing) which is simply him demonstrating his confidence...its one thing to say you are confident and another thing to actually demonstrate your confidence. but definitely work on your attitude and make sure you are only showing high value male behavior.

From my current experience, it isn't necessary to show high male behavior to foster a deep relationship with a woman... also, this is very culturally variable. (I don't mean only between different countries but also different economic classes, education levels, religions, types of upbringing, etc.)

Ok, one of the pick up artists biggest rules is to never buy gifts, flowers, drinks or dinners for women we have not slept with.

Hehe I know Also pretty practical strategy for student finance
Again, I think that also this is culturally variable.