wanting out, but hanging on

[wolfgang]

So now I've gotten stressed to a threshold that makes me want to write
about it here as my friends are tired of my story of my older/ex/now-gf/rebound. So it's all about my gf, who is someone I broke up with then came back to, as a rebound. I haven't been strong enough to completly admit I want to break up, insecure about being alone or fear the hurt she and I will have with a real break up.

It's probably been about a year that I've been feeling wanting to not
be with her and instead there's things happening in her life that I
feel moving on would be more junk for her to deal with. Like her son
getting married and then going off to Iraq, or recently her mother was
dying and then did die (that was first week in Jan) and then she's
retiring this year, working 'till May and some other things she likes
to have as drama.


So her boat is already rockin all over the place and I try to not rock
it more but then I do. We do lots of stuff together and I have an
agreed night out with the guys. But last week I over did it and sort
of passed out at my friend's house. Of coarse it bothered her and she
was all worried - I said "I can't call if I'm unconscious". So a blip
that I fixed with buying her dinner. Then this week I messed up again
by going over to a friend's house when it wasn't the agreed night out
and I forgot to call before it was so late she was all freaked out
again (I do understand her reaction). Piece of work, me, ha? Kind of
embarassing, shameful.


So then she and I talk and I try to say there's parts of me that aren't
with you and at times I'm off in my own world and "forget" to call or
something. Appologizing, etc... But also just angry about bothering
her. She goes on to say she loves my perspective so much that she can
tolerate some mess ups like this. But I'm not sure what's so special
about my perspective, although she's trying to appriceite me - I get
that.

Then she directly asks me to tell her that I appricieate her in
some way. Which I guess is true or I wouldn't have gotten back with
her or be hanging on so much now - there's some value in being around
her. I come up with some things but it feels forced when put on the
spot - or that her need over extends my natural appriceiations or I'm
just one that holds back on that since I'm not thinking I'm with her
totally.


So why write this here? She wants to talk more and I'm just trying to
sort it out some. What are my motives or what do I really want or feel or why is does this interaction happen? Is it just because I can't seem to really
leave her and she keeps putting up with my junk such that I get away
with being an idiot? And how much support does she need after her
mother's death? Or am I even able to support her? Should I stick around because of that and try to act more mature?

It does seem like I'm trying to "be good" more than "be honest". I've thought maybe I need to have a counsoler, but I'm broke that paying someone seems like an expense.


Thanks for reading, at least, even if no thoughts come to mind for me
that you think you could share with me.

[yossarian]

She's very critical and judgmental of you, and you encourage this behaviour in her.

Hopefully you're aware of that, for starters. If that's how you want a relationship to be that is certainly your choice, however if I had to guess I'd guess that her criticism and judgmental attitude towards you is what is turning you off, or at the very least blocking you from being able to appreciate her.

It sounds to me like you have a very adversarial relationship. It's not easy to love in that kind of situation. You mentioned she "likes drama" which implies she likes to have fights.

Personally I couldn't live like that, though I've certainly been in your situation and observed it in other people over and over and over.

My advice is that you need to figure out what a GOOD relationship is for you. Imagine what a GOOD relationship looks like, feels like, how you treat each other. It seems like you don't really have this and instead are in it for no real reason besides it being "what you're supposed to do".

If you can imagine a relationship that WOULD make you appreciative, interested, loving, or whatever things you want, I think the smart thing then is to start working towards it. Ask yourself how you could mould what you have right now into that good thing, tell your gf that thats what you want and that you need to seek it, and if she doesnt or cant help you then you owe it to yourself to leave and find it somewhere else.

Personally I could never (and still can't) enjoy an adversarial relationship where the woman is constantly at my throat trying to control me. That is basically the opposite of what I consider to be healthy and good, and so if my gf wasn't willing to work towards ending those issues I would leave her.

In your case I would have nipped her critical attitude in the bud and told her flat out the first time it happened (in an honest, genuine, caring way) that I'm not going to be with someone who treats me like that, that it's not her job to nag or harp or keep me in check or to criticise. If she couldnt help herself I would simply leave because it's not a viable situation for me.

Of course I don't understand your specific situation so maybe you like it or something, but personally I would never allow my SO to mandate when I can go out and when I can't. Freaking out when I don't call may happen, but then I would expect her to present it to me in a kind, authentic manner not as a fight or a powerstruggle. I would expect her to come me gently and tell me how she feels when that happens. Of course, I'd need to take her advice or she would be unfulfilled, and I don't want that either.

It sounds to me like you're on a tight leash beind held by an abusive owner and it doesn't suprise me at all that you are losing interest in her. I would too. No one wants to be whipped.

Just my opinion though, I'm hardly an expert.

[Lychee]

If you want out, then leave the relationship. The questions you asked towards the end of your post are questions you need to seriously think about. No one wants to be a rebound for anyone else.

I'm not trying to say you should forget about her troubles because you are still her friend, by all means show compassion and concern. But perhaps you are not ready to give of your self in a relationship at this level. It sounds like you need some time off to get yourself together.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by yossarian

She's very critical and judgmental of you, and you encourage this behaviour in her.

Hopefully you're aware of that, for starters. If that's how you want a relationship to be that is certainly your choice, however if I had to guess I'd guess that her criticism and judgmental attitude towards you is what is turning you off, or at the very least blocking you from being able to appreciate her.

Hitting some nails on the head. There is a dynamic that I too play the part and when it gets polarized I start to notice it in my anger signaling me it's something I don't want. I probably criticize myself in response to upsetting her because when she rants at me I am being told I did something wrong (which could be true - my part of the encouragement of her behaviour). I've been with her a long time, so some of these patterns are just things we do when we get stressed and unaware, unfortunatly. But then stress is comming from me thinking about leaving her.

My advice is that you need to figure out what a GOOD relationship is for you. Imagine what a GOOD relationship looks like, feels like, how you treat each other. It seems like you don't really have this and instead are in it for no real reason besides it being "what you're supposed to do".

If you can imagine a relationship that WOULD make you appreciative, interested, loving, or whatever things you want, I think the smart thing then is to start working towards it. Ask yourself how you could mould what you have right now into that good thing, tell your gf that thats what you want and that you need to seek it, and if she doesnt or cant help you then you owe it to yourself to leave and find it somewhere else.

Thanks for putting that out. I'm taking that to heart and it;s not been too much of my focus - figure out what a good relationship is for me. More of the "this isn't what I want" focus. I know she's up to the whole ball of wax with me but I'm not seeing it. In other words it's up to me to make it better with her or leave. It's just one of my gut feelings that I dont' feel up to making it better with her. It's not going to go the way of me saying this is how I want it and she saying she can't be that way so then I leave. Maybe I've lost my objectivity.

It sounds to me like you're on a tight leash beind held by an abusive owner and it doesn't suprise me at all that you are losing interest in her. I would too. No one wants to be whipped.

Just my opinion though, I'm hardly an expert.

Yeah, and also that tight leash is partly my doing in letting things be status quo. However, even if I wanted to do my own thing and I'm in a relationship I do think I should be letting her know I'm not coming home for diner or something. It's just that my head isn't really completly in the relationship so I do things outside of that context, then she gets to freak out and get to do damage control.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Lychee

If you want out, then leave the relationship. The questions you asked towards the end of your post are questions you need to seriously think about. No one wants to be a rebound for anyone else.

I'm not trying to say you should forget about her troubles because you are still her friend, by all means show compassion and concern. But perhaps you are not ready to give of your self in a relationship at this level. It sounds like you need some time off to get yourself together.

Nice take on my situation, thanks. My quesitons are tough ones and now I also have in my mind to think about what a good relationship would be for. I suppose I can be a better friend to her than what ever it is now.

I'd say I could easily make a relationship work great, if I wanted to. I just don't want to right now with her. She's much older than me and it wasn't always such an issue. But that could just be something to pin it on - that it's really just that we aren't in the same vibe as we used to be and we are stuck in some way.

[Dating Specialist]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

But that could just be something to pin it on - that it's really just that we aren't in the same vibe as we used to be and we are stuck in some way.

May I ask why are you stuck, wolfgang?

What would happen that you can't handle if you two aren't together? How would you like things to be different if you two still stay together?

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Dating Specialist

May I ask why are you stuck, wolfgang?

What would happen that you can't handle if you two aren't together? How would you like things to be different if you two still stay together?

We're stuck since neither of us has had the courage to completly call it off. We've built up some life style that we both like, the activities and commonalities of ideas/thoughts that we enjoy and that keeps us giong to some extent, the stuckness. And I have the feeling of doing the right thing around her, to not rock her boat more while she has life things so I don't change much as far as going in the direction of leaving her.

To not be with her I have the fears of not finding someone, so then maybe now is as good as it gets and I should just face it and make it better. Or that I won't like being alone to my detrement - althought mostly I imagine being even more involved with what I enjoy if I was alone. Sometimes I look ahead and don't have worries - that women do smile at me so there are other's out there and I'd do even more healthy things on my own, work out more regularly.

Boy, staying together. I'd like to feel attracted to her more, she's a beauty (for her age and all, but...). I'd like to want to have sex with her. She is wanting it, instagates it mostly, and says she's attracted to me fine. I don't tell her I'm not attracted (trying to be kind?) but the intamacy is strained and I'm remote, don't enjoy kissing her.

Somehow I don't like too much being around other people with her. I've not gone to parties because of that. I've excluded her in cases too. So I'd like to have it so I'm comfortable having her around socially and feel joyful about inviting her along.

And it's not just becuase I wonder what people think to see the age diff, there's something about her steam rollering conversations or like she'll stand infront of me if there's a circle of people so effectively blocking my position (I'll move over and she will again, weird). Although I'm a quiet guy anyway and sometimes I didn't feel like talking and she can do all the talking she wants without me feeling closed out.

I'm not quite myself with her and being around others. Although I've been getting better that this, just not too easy to maintain who I am around her. I find it much easier to talk with others on my own. So I'd like to be myself even if she's around. It's not too big an issue, this one. More like a sutble feeling.

I want to feel that I want to stay with her and grow old together and then put a ring on her finger.

[Dating Specialist]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

We're stuck since neither of us has had the courage to completly call it off. We've built up some life style that we both like, the activities and commonalities of ideas/thoughts that we enjoy and that keeps us giong to some extent, the stuckness. And I have the feeling of doing the right thing around her, to not rock her boat more while she has life things so I don't change much as far as going in the direction of leaving her.

Anyone who has been with someone for a certain period of time will have things in common. You do things together, you share the same bed etc. Otherwise you wouldn't have stuck with each other, right?

So this is normal. It's about starting with someone else and you'll build up that familiarity and new memories in no time and there you go - you're stuck with a new person!

It's just a matter of lifestyle. At first I thought it is something more complicated than this, like you did her a major disservice and you need to use your whole life to make it up (ok, I'm kidding, sorry! )

But the problem comes when you fear that such a person may never appear in your life if you do leave her, right?

That brings us to the next thing...

Originally Posted by wolfgang

To not be with her I have the fears of not finding someone, so then maybe now is as good as it gets and I should just face it and make it better. Or that I won't like being alone to my detrement - althought mostly I imagine being even more involved with what I enjoy if I was alone. Sometimes I look ahead and don't have worries - that women do smile at me so there are other's out there and I'd do even more healthy things on my own, work out more regularly.

So if there is someone now who has appeared in your life right now, how would that make your decision to leave or stay easier?

Pls answer this question truthfully.

If you're hanging on to a relationship because you're worried you won't find someone else, then you're only in it for the companionship - which is the reason you're stuck with her anyway.

Is this the right reason to be in a relationship? Is there love?

Is this reason strong enough to make all this worth it? If it is, then why this post?

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Boy, staying together. I'd like to feel attracted to her more, she's a beauty (for her age and all, but...). I'd like to want to have sex with her. She is wanting it, instagates it mostly, and says she's attracted to me fine. I don't tell her I'm not attracted (trying to be kind?) but the intamacy is strained and I'm remote, don't enjoy kissing her.

Somehow I don't like too much being around other people with her. I've not gone to parties because of that. I've excluded her in cases too. So I'd like to have it so I'm comfortable having her around socially and feel joyful about inviting her along.

And it's not just becuase I wonder what people think to see the age diff, there's something about her steam rollering conversations or like she'll stand infront of me if there's a circle of people so effectively blocking my position (I'll move over and she will again, weird). Although I'm a quiet guy anyway and sometimes I didn't feel like talking and she can do all the talking she wants without me feeling closed out.

I'm not quite myself with her and being around others. Although I've been getting better that this, just not too easy to maintain who I am around her. I find it much easier to talk with others on my own. So I'd like to be myself even if she's around. It's not too big an issue, this one. More like a sutble feeling.

I want to feel that I want to stay with her and grow old together and then put a ring on her finger.

Have you told her how "small" it makes you feel when she does that each time in a group setting? (Standing in front of you I mean) Is she still insistent on doing that?

Could she be kind of "protecting" you, knowing you probably don't like to talk that much, and probably cos she's older than you?

If her presence is making you uneasy and not being yourself, are you giving away your power too much to her for allowing you to feel and behave that way? How can you behave like yourself even when she's around? Have you thought of what can be done?

I guess at the end of the day, whether or not you stay in a relationship that is giving you so many question marks depends on which is more important.

And how does she feels towards you btw? Now that you don't enjoy kissing, how about her? Women usually will be able to sense their men withdrawing during intimacy, so didn't she say anything about this?

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Dating Specialist

It's just a matter of lifestyle. At first I thought it is something more complicated than this, like you did her a major disservice and you need to use your whole life to make it up (ok, I'm kidding, sorry! )

But the problem comes when you fear that such a person may never appear in your life if you do leave her, right?

Yeah, lifestyle keeps running the show but also some sort of behaviour hook - like don't want her to feel bad so don't leave or she doesnt' think I'd be ok alone.

So if there is someone now who has appeared in your life right now, how would that make your decision to leave or stay easier?

Pls answer this question truthfully.

I'm not sure I can fit the condition to my situation. I mean that's a big "if" since I don't meet women enough on my own because of still being in this relationship in some manner. Or that's to say, if someone came my way that I fancied, I wouldn't know that it could work without going out with her but I wouldn't do that while I'm in this current thing.

If you're hanging on to a relationship because you're worried you won't find someone else, then you're only in it for the companionship - which is the reason you're stuck with her anyway.

Is this the right reason to be in a relationship? Is there love?

Is this reason strong enough to make all this worth it? If it is, then why this post?

Love, hmmm... maybe strong like on my side. For easy hanging out times, some travel but I've resisted big travel. So yeah, for the companionship I'm stuck and is it worth it? It feels like a trade off. Like, ok, even though it's not a nice juicy love thing, at least we get to do things. Is it more good than bad? Sort of. I mean it's not all that bad. It just seems like there could be a lot more good that isn't here.

Could she be kind of "protecting" you, knowing you probably don't like to talk that much, and probably cos she's older than you?

yeah we've talked about it, interesting take the protection, thanks.

If her presence is making you uneasy and not being yourself, are you giving away your power too much to her for allowing you to feel and behave that way? How can you behave like yourself even when she's around? Have you thought of what can be done?

Yeah, it's somewhat true that I'm not quite myself as well when with her. I tend to go with her agenda which happens to mesh with mine somewhat but otherwise I'm not exactly going about my bussiness (which could be to include her).

I guess at the end of the day, whether or not you stay in a relationship that is giving you so many question marks depends on which is more important.

Are you saying it can depend on which question is more important? Not sure I get this part.

And how does she feels towards you btw? Now that you don't enjoy kissing, how about her? Women usually will be able to sense their men withdrawing during intimacy, so didn't she say anything about this?

She says the sex is ok for her, but not great. She says she thinks I'm really special for her etc. It's kind of strange that she goes along with the way it is, as is she's thinking it will turn around some day. If she wasn't trying we probably wouldn't have anything.

[yossarian]

Is she protective or embarrased?

In my opinion she doesn't respect you and therefore treats you badly. When she treats you badly, you don't stand up for yourself, and this makes her lose respect and the cycle continues.

If you started making firm boundaries you would both be happier. You have to be the man in the relationship or she is constantly going to bring up petty things to fight about. It's her expressing her unhappiness through proxy - she probably doesn't even know what her real issue is but just has this subconsious urge to make a fight.

All I can say is i've seen this issue over and over and the only way to solve it is to grow a backbone and place firm but gentle boundaries.

Next time she does something I would look her in the eye and tell her straight out to "Stop." I would tell her never to speak to me like that again. "Never speak to me like that again." I would mean it. Or, if she stepped in front of me, I would gently grab her arm so as to get her attention, look her in the eye, and say, "Don't do that again." And I would mean it.

If the behaviour continued I'd just say bye and leave.

You have to have boundaries, especially with women. I've never met a woman who responded well when I didn't have clear boundaries. And you can't say it in anger - that only encourages her. You have to say it like a fact and show her you mean it.

You can change things on a dime for forever if you tell her to stop and you actually mean it.

If you aren't willing to walk away neither of you will be happy. It will make you clingy and unattractive, it will make her irritable and resentful.