online social networking = more isolation

[wolfgang]

Social Networking, Virtual Friends and the Erosion of the Social Fabric of Modern Society by Mike Adams the Health Ranger

How's hits for ironic of me to post this article? However I use this forum and one other - no facebook and the like for me.

Social networking interactions are no replacement for real-world bonding between friends. Real-world friends build commonality and trust based on shared personal experiences. Bike rides, hiking trips, shopping experiences, skipping school, dance parties... These mutual histories form true friendships based on common experiences that reinforce shared worldviews, an important foundation for any lasting friendship.

[Brutha]

It just false.
The research about the effects of online networking rather shows that it helps with building relationships that will also be used in person.

[wolfgang]

I don't know of the research.

The article does seem to make sense though. I imagine kids stuck on their computers and not out and about like it used to be.

As an adult I can see it in myself some too. I'd rather post some wacky ideas instead of finding real people to talk about whatever's on my mind. On one hand I think it's great. I keep myself anonymous and maybe I'm a little different online than in real life because I hide behind the screen with very little real identity.

But on the other hand Internet folk aren't people you meet or really interact with. There's no vested interest and sometimes you post something without any response - which, ok, might happen in the real world too but real friends are better at listening. imho.

How many posts in this forum are of the type like, "please help me, I am not sure how to relate to people"? Or posters getting pissed about being addicted to the Internet and not going out? There might be something to this. Online games or TV are other sources of not interacting in real life.

Someone who is already prone to being recluse could take to the online world and never see the light of day and feel fine - until they realize they don't know anybody for real - just their online facade.

I don't know - just a warning if you are a parent. Keep your kids involved with real people.

[James81]

This is a case of an article written by someone who has no clue what it means to be an introvert.

I chalk this article up as another case where extroversion is lauded over introversion in our society.

[Daffy Duck]

95% of the people I talk to on Facebook are people I hang out with in real life frequently. Facebook does not minimize the level of real-world interaction I have with them -- in fact, it increases it.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by James81

This is a case of an article written by someone who has no clue what it means to be an introvert.

I chalk this article up as another case where extroversion is lauded over introversion in our society.

most introverts wish they weren't that way - and then use the internet to stay stuck and not grow into a fully interactive person able to relate to people.

sure, maybe there are rare cases of introverts that are fine - but usually introversion and antisocial behavior is a sign of not having self esteem.

again, imho.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

95% of the people I talk to on Facebook are people I hang out with in real life frequently. Facebook does not minimize the level of real-world interaction I have with them -- in fact, it increases it.

point taken

[James81]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

most introverts wish they weren't that way - and then use the internet to stay stuck and not grow into a fully interactive person able to relate to people.

Most introverts who wish they weren't that way, do so because society pressures people to be extroverted.

For example, in school, teachers push students to work in groups, because in the work world, that's how work is "accomplished." Not realizing that introverted people can accomplish way more when they are allowed to work alone.

Because of this pressure, introverts try to hide their introversion instead of embracing it like they should (because, honestly, introverts actually OUTNUMBER extroverts according to the polls...I think it's like 52% are introverts and 48% are extroverts).

Originally Posted by wolfgang

sure, maybe there are rare cases of introverts that are fine - but usually introversion and antisocial behavior is a sign of not having self esteem.

This is just ignorant. (no offense to you) There is nothing "antisocial" about introversion. It's just that, sadly, most introverts find that online discussions tend to contain the things that interest them most (ideas) and real life discussion tend towards more extroverted things (like people or events).

Lack of self-esteem is found in both introverts and extroverts. Except introverts use anti-social behavior to cope with it whereas extroverts overcompensate by being more "loud" to compensate.

I'm not trying to discredit real life relationships (they are importnat to maintain). I'm just saying that this article draws on extremes to make a point.

Completely discrediting online relationships are really just a form of ignorance toward introversion.

[cylon]

Forums are a double-edged sword. They give us the instant fix of feeling like we're having a social interaction, but at the same time, in order to have that interaction, we have to be away from people and focused on our computers.

I have personally been making an effort to get out and more and meet new people. I recognize the value of having real friends, real human interaction.

All the conversations we have here... it is really neat because we're all jacked-in to all the knowledge of the world and can link to it, and we can have shouting matches with people on the other side of the planet.

Yet before the web... where would people like us (steve pavlina members) be? We'd have to go to coffee shops or cafes or something like that, which is where we used to seek out these discussions pre-internet. We'd be making eye contact. We'd be forging relationships that could potentially last for a lifetime.

I'm of the last generation who didn't have this. When I was an over-analytical teenager and obsessed with philosophy, I got on my bicycle and rode to coffee shops, every night, and met people that way. That's where all the interesting smart people were. Now we're online, in our homes or offices having these discussions instead.

Blessing and a curse. I use these forums way too much. But at least I am making a conscious effort to go out more. I guess it just depends on how you use it.

[SimonaRich]

If you don't sit at home all the time but normally socialise but then sometimes use things like social networking sites then there's nothing wrong with that, just enhanced socialising experience. However if you shut yourself from the real world to be immersed in such sites then there's an addiction.

[brendannz]

I think internet can both bring more isolation and more connection with people.

For example,

in London I found an art community of young people only to talk with, and also I found places to play basketball and touch rugby online. I also met several people and also found my flat online, and bought my computer online. Not to mention several gigs I found to go to online, approximately 1 a week. As well old friends from high school, I hadn't seen in the last 7 years, I hooked up with again on facebook, and these were some of the best firends I had.

At the same time, I think you can be really good at online communication, but really bad at the other 90% of social communication (not the words you use). I've found myself with these problems in the past. It's good to use the internet to get to know people, sometimes I've got to know people's real life personalities online much better than I would have in real life..

but you've got to be fully aware where the real world is, and I think those are the pros and cons of internet commmunication.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

95% of the people I talk to on Facebook are people I hang out with in real life frequently. Facebook does not minimize the level of real-world interaction I have with them -- in fact, it increases it.

I think most people use the internet to enhance real person to person friendships. I think with facebook, this is the case with most people, but in the past it would be that only loners would have masses of internet-only friends and few real life friends, but now sending all your friends a facebook message about the upcoming party is more effective than texting people personally..

It's just a matter of being aware of the pros and cons IMO

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by cylon

Blessing and a curse. I use these forums way too much. But at least I am making a conscious effort to go out more. I guess it just depends on how you use it.

You ever thought of using the internet to find places to go out to?

[James81]

Originally Posted by brendannz

You ever thought of using the internet to find places to go out to?

Do something, Learn something, Share something, Change something - Meetup.com

[jaamkie]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

most introverts wish they weren't that way - and then use the internet to stay stuck and not grow into a fully interactive person able to relate to people.

sure, maybe there are rare cases of introverts that are fine - but usually introversion and antisocial behavior is a sign of not having self esteem.

again, imho.

I don't think introversion and (shyness or low-self-esteem) are necessarily the same thing. I'm certainly an introvert, and I can also be shy in certain circumstances, but for many social situations I think I do a pretty good job of socializing/networking/entertaining others IF I have the energy and the time to recharge alone between events. It isn't that I don't enjoy socializing or fear it, but I DO find it exhausting and need time alone to process ideas suggested in conversations. I've also known extroverts who are uncomfortable spending time alone, or unable to deeply think through a problem without bouncing ideas off of others. I see the benefit of both modes- as a programmer, I love to pair with teammates and/or have whiteboard design discussions, but there are also many times when one needs to sit alone and think through a problem, come up with a vision for a design/architecture, or test out an embryonic idea in concentrated silence before coming back to the group to discuss the new idea.

[Eric Roosevelt]

I think one of the main differences between online socializing and face-to-face socializing is that, in the former, it's easier to ignore people. If you don't like someone, you can just remove him or her from your friends list. But in "real life", you're often stuck for a long time with the people you work with, your neighbour, your partner or whoever else happens to be part of your life. And since we can't ignore people in flesh and blood as easily, that gives us more incentive to try to understand them or get along with them.

A good thing about online socializing is that people often dare to have more fun and let go of their inhibitions a bit more, which can often lead to interesting discussions.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by James81

This is just ignorant. (no offense to you) There is nothing "antisocial" about introversion.

What is antisocial? I mean if someone isn't interacting with other people they are not being social - anti-social. That's what introverts are. imho.

Lack of self-esteem is found in both introverts and extroverts. Except introverts use anti-social behavior to cope with it whereas extroverts overcompensate by being more "loud" to compensate.

excellent. so true. someone's response to not feelign good abotu themselves manifest in different ways. It does seem though, that interacting with people is more effective at bringing about self- esteem.

I'm not trying to discredit real life relationships (they are importnat to maintain). I'm just saying that this article draws on extremes to make a point.

Completely discrediting online relationships are really just a form of ignorance toward introversion.

maybe it's fine to be introverted. just seems like a lonely way to be and not how humans were naturally built to be. big joys come with being with people, imho.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Eric Roosevelt

I think one of the main differences between online socializing and face-to-face socializing is that, in the former, it's easier to ignore people. If you don't like someone, you can just remove him or her from your friends list. But in "real life", you're often stuck for a long time with the people you work with, your neighbour, your partner or whoever else happens to be part of your life. And since we can't ignore people in flesh and blood as easily, that gives us more incentive to try to understand them or get along with them.

A good thing about online socializing is that people often dare to have more fun and let go of their inhibitions a bit more, which can often lead to interesting discussions.

like these observations.

[cylon]

At my last job, I was a member here, and at another forum. My job was just a bad situation and it really messed me up, mentally. And it was all in a very small, prison-like room with just a handful of people, and we were always at each other's throats. I felt totally stuck and depressed.

What is funny is why I would be at my office, I would be posting here or at the other forum about it, and be getting all this advice and input that helped me to rise above the situation and feel more powerful.

If I didn't have the instant communication of the web, I probably wouldn't have changed as much as I did.

Double edged sword.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by James81

Because of this pressure, introverts try to hide their introversion instead of embracing it like they should (because, honestly, introverts actually OUTNUMBER extroverts according to the polls...I think it's like 52% are introverts and 48% are extroverts).

Lack of self-esteem is found in both introverts and extroverts. Except introverts use anti-social behavior to cope with it whereas extroverts overcompensate by being more "loud" to compensate.

I don't know about those numbers, 52% introverts, but I'm sure there's probably varying statistic.

Either way, thanks for your information! as an introvert this was particularly informative. Like, I've had some rude loud extraverts I've had to deal with in the past and I never really understood why they had to be loud rude, even though I'd always been told it's because they're insecure... Haven't had those problems lately, though.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by cylon

At my last job, I was a member here, and at another forum. My job was just a bad situation and it really messed me up, mentally. And it was all in a very small, prison-like room with just a handful of people, and we were always at each other's throats. I felt totally stuck and depressed.

What is funny is why I would be at my office, I would be posting here or at the other forum about it, and be getting all this advice and input that helped me to rise above the situation and feel more powerful.

If I didn't have the instant communication of the web, I probably wouldn't have changed as much as I did.

Double edged sword.

Well, I think you could also argue, that someone who's 100% extraverted, and never reads books, or researches things on the internet could also suffer from not having any original thought to contribute to conversation

[cylon]

There's a difference between extravert and obnoxious.

[James81]

Check out this book for more on introversion. It's a great book (I also got that statistic above from this book...can't remember where she got it from, but she says where she got it in the book).

[cylon]

There's also a difference between introvert and shy because you lack social skills. I am an introvert in the sense that I have to be alone for long periods of time. Being social takes a lot out of me because I put my whole self into it, so I'm not the type of person that can go out every night, or spend all my time talking to others--- I would lose myself in the process. I like being alone.

But I also acknowledge that even while being an introvert, I need social interaction. I need to be around other people because I am human. And when I'm out, I usually am fairly extraverted, I will initiate conversations more, things like that. Then the next day, I recover, spend time alone to rebalance.

But some people who are just low-self esteem, painfully shy, feel awkward about themselves, say they are introverts, when all they want is to be with other people.

The difference between introvert and painfully and awkwardly shy, I guess, would be confidence. Confidence in either a social or private setting.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

most introverts wish they weren't that way - and then use the internet to stay stuck and not grow into a fully interactive person able to relate to people.

sure, maybe there are rare cases of introverts that are fine - but usually introversion and antisocial behavior is a sign of not having self esteem.

again, imho.

The assumption that introverts are not fully interactive or unable to relate to people or have low self-esteem is a big mistake.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about what introversion is in the first place. Introverts simply get energy from being alone and spend it when socializing. Extroverts gain energy when they socialize and feel drained when they are alone too much. As a result, extroverts need to interact with other people regularly and like spending lots of time with others. For introverts, spending time with others is tiring and they need a lot of alone time to recover.

This doesn't mean that they don't like seeing others or that they are shy or anti-social though. Introversion is not the same as shyness and has nothing to do with social anxiety, so please don't confuse. There are people (like myself) who are strongly introverted yet love other people and can very easily connect and communicate with others.

I personally love online socializing. It allows me to connect and communicate without it being too tiring for me. It does not replace live interactions completely, but it's a nice extension of it. I socialize way more this way than if I had to meet everybody physically.

Originally Posted by wolfgang

It does seem though, that interacting with people is more effective at bringing about self- esteem.

maybe it's fine to be introverted. just seems like a lonely way to be and not how humans were naturally built to be. big joys come with being with people, imho.

You're just extrovert-biased.

You obviously are an extrovert who cannot imagine how others could be different. There are people who function completely differently though. Doesn't mean there's something wrong with them just because they are not like you.

Introverts are naturally built to be alone a lot. They enjoy it. And they don't feel lonely when they are alone. Maybe you would feel lonely. But loneliness is not the same as spending time alone. I can stay for days without talking to anybody and never feel lonely.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by cylon

But some people who are just low-self esteem, painfully shy, feel awkward about themselves, say they are introverts, when all they want is to be with other people.

That's true. Shyness and social anxiety often get confused with introversion, and extroversion gets confused with being comfortable in social situations. This is just blatant ignorance.

There are shy, socially awkward introverts, and there are shy, socially awkward extroverts too. The extroverts probably overcome their social blocks faster, because they are forced to: unlike the introverts, they badly need social interaction. But I believe intro/extroversion is a genetic thing and has little to do with social skills.

When Steve says that he went from being an introvert to being an extrovert, I don't believe him. Either he already was an extrovert before - just a shy, emotionally closed off and socially awkward one - or he still is an introvert - one who is comfortable with expressing himself and opening up now.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

You're just extrovert-biased.

You obviously are an extrovert who cannot imagine how others could be different. There are people who function completely differently though. Doesn't mean there's something wrong with them just because they are not like you.

Introverts are naturally built to be alone a lot. They enjoy it. And they don't feel lonely when they are alone. Maybe you would feel lonely. But loneliness is not the same as spending time alone. I can stay for days without talking to anybody and never feel lonely.

Usually if you hear in conversation "introverted" it's used to describe a character flaw by extraverts who are ignorant towards it, unfortunately.

[James81]

Originally Posted by brendannz

Usually if you hear in conversation "introverted" it's used to describe a character flaw by extraverts who are ignorant towards it, unfortunately.

Yeah, which is funny because introverts actually outnumber extroverts in this country.

[jaamkie]

Originally Posted by James81

Yeah, which is funny because introverts actually outnumber extroverts in this country.

reminds me that this entire discussion exists within a cultural context.... ethiopians for instance place a higher value on introversion and see extroverts as a bit obnoxious and juvenile while the quietest individuals are considered respectful, intelligent, and more desirable as friends.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by jaamkie

reminds me that this entire discussion exists within a cultural context.... ethiopians for instance place a higher value on introversion and see extroverts as a bit obnoxious and juvenile while the quietest individuals are considered respectful, intelligent, and more desirable as friends.

I'd imagine other societies, Japanese, Chinese, and maybe other countries would view introversion the same way.

It's really just a matter of accepting the diversity between people.. Some loud people don't realise how rude they are in telling quiet people how quiet they are.