online social networking = more isolation

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

That's true. Shyness and social anxiety often get confused with introversion, and extroversion gets confused with being comfortable in social situations. This is just blatant ignorance.

Indeed. I've learned this from personal experience. My ex-girlfriend did not like meeting many new people or going out in large groups, but whenever we did, she was often the most extroverted one. She said she did it to hide her social anxiety. I don't think she has as much social anxiety as she used to. When you "fake confidence" for so long, it eventually becomes real.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

The assumption that introverts are not fully interactive or unable to relate to people or have low self-esteem is a big mistake.

If an introvert is also able to interact with people but feel drained by it - what is that? Is that an inability to interact with people? Having boundary issues or something that makes it draining? why would interacting with people be draining? Trying to please other people? If it drains someone, there's something up about interacting with people. imho.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about what introversion is in the first place. Introverts simply get energy from being alone and spend it when socializing. Extroverts gain energy when they socialize and feel drained when they are alone too much. As a result, extroverts need to interact with other people regularly and like spending lots of time with others. For introverts, spending time with others is tiring and they need a lot of alone time to recover.

extremes in either case are signs of something that could be worked on.. if someone has trouble being by themselves, there's something's up. if someone has trouble being with people, something's up.

This doesn't mean that they don't like seeing others or that they are shy or anti-social though. Introversion is not the same as shyness and has nothing to do with social anxiety, so please don't confuse.

it's not the same yet extreme introversion is a symptom of shyness and usually social anxiety - of which many get into the trap with online networks fulling real life interactions. and get stuck there and become more unable to be in real life.

There are people (like myself) who are strongly introverted yet love other people and can very easily connect and communicate with others.

you are not of the extreme case.

I personally love online socializing. It allows me to connect and communicate without it being too tiring for me. It does not replace live interactions completely, but it's a nice extension of it. I socialize way more this way than if I had to meet everybody physically.

what kind of connection is online then? there's some big differences, yes? one being you are thinking you are able to connect without being tiring. why is that? is that because it's not a real personal connenction after all.

You're just extrovert-biased.

You obviously are an extrovert who cannot imagine how others could be different. There are people who function completely differently though. Doesn't mean there's something wrong with them just because they are not like you.

you dont' really know me do you? hence how online chats go. lots of hiding behind typed words and little context in voice tones, non-verbal expressions.

Introverts are naturally built to be alone a lot. They enjoy it. And they don't feel lonely when they are alone. Maybe you would feel lonely. But loneliness is not the same as spending time alone. I can stay for days without talking to anybody and never feel lonely.

I'm glad you enjoy yourself. when you are alone and not talking to anybody and never feeling lonely - are you jumping online?

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by brendannz

Usually if you hear in conversation "introverted" it's used to describe a character flaw by extraverts who are ignorant towards it, unfortunately.

usually if you hear in conversation "extraverted" it's used to describe a character flaw by introverts who are ignorant towards it, unfortunately.

[James81]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

If an introvert is also able to interact with people but feel drained by it - what is that? Is that an inability to interact with people? Having boundary issues or something that makes it draining? why would interacting with people be draining? Trying to please other people? If it drains someone, there's something up about interacting with people. imho.

That's because you are ignorant about introversion. You think there is something wrong with that person because you simply don't understand it.

It's not anymore an inability to interact with people than getting tired after playing basketball is an inability to play basketball.

Originally Posted by wolfgang

extremes in either case are signs of something that could be worked on.. if someone has trouble being by themselves, there's something's up. if someone has trouble being with people, something's up.

Getting tired from social interaction doesn't mean something is up. It means that someone is an introvert. Considering that 52% of the population is introverted, are you saying that the majority of people have something "wrong" with them? Introversion is NOT shyness or social anxiety. But our extroverted American culture seems to think that if you are not energized by social interaction, then something is WRONG with you (just like you are saying). Can you see how that belief (that you are perpetuating) might lead someone to HIDE their introverted nature, thus causing the anxiety and shyness?

Originally Posted by wolfgang

it's not the same yet extreme introversion is a symptom of shyness and usually social anxiety - of which many get into the trap with online networks fulling real life interactions. and get stuck there and become more unable to be in real life.

This is just more ignorance.

Originally Posted by wolfgang

what kind of connection is online then? there's some big differences, yes? one being you are thinking you are able to connect without being tiring. why is that? is that because it's not a real personal connenction after all.

I used to talk to a dude online at another message board. Over the course of a couple of years, I got to know him real well and become good friends with him.

About 2 years ago, one of his other friends (a friend that knew him in real life and online) came onto the message board and told us that he had died.

I cried.

I don't think that the connection there gets anymore personal than that. I never once knew him in real life, but I felt real emotion when I heard that he died.

People think that online connections aren't personal (partly because there's this psuedo anonymity that most people realize DOESN'T REALLY EXIST), but they can be very personal. It's not the SAME as real life connections (and perhaps not as deep), but they can and are very personal connections.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by James81

That's because you are ignorant about introversion. You think there is something wrong with that person because you simply don't understand it.

contrary to what you may think - I'm an introvert. It has always been founded on not wanting to deal with people because I learned how to deal with teasing by just not wanting to be around people.

It's not anymore an inability to interact with people than getting tired after playing basketball is an inability to play basketball.

if I don't know how to play basketball and tried to play - I'd get more tired than someone else who does. it's a skill. just like relating to people. it's also a choice - either people want to or not. people that don't want to learn are missing out on some fun times, imo. nothing wrong with that.

Getting tired from social interaction doesn't mean something is up. It means that someone is an introvert. Considering that 52% of the population is introverted, are you saying that the majority of people have something "wrong" with them?

most introverts are also wishing they were able to have no issues relating to people, they wish it wasn't draining to be around people. I got there. It's fun - it's not draining any more. I dont' think I would have found some joys that I found before coming out of my shell.

Introversion is NOT shyness or social anxiety.

I was shy and it was because of not feeling good enough and other false beliefs about myself - once I gave up feeling that way I was not as introverted and enjoyed people like never before.

But our extroverted American culture seems to think that if you are not energized by social interaction, then something is WRONG with you (just like you are saying).

I have not said there is something wrong with choosing to not engage in social interactions (I think). it just seems like a limiting choice that misses joys of knowing others.

Can you see how that belief (that you are perpetuating) might lead someone to HIDE their introverted nature, thus causing the anxiety and shyness?

the belief is that it's learned behavior that may not serve someone anymore and that giving up this behavior will feel more freeing. I would encourage someone spending too much time on the internet to find real people to hang out with. the extreme cases are missing out, that's all. nothing wrong - just a choice.

I used to talk to a dude online at another message board. Over the course of a couple of years, I got to know him real well and become good friends with him.

About 2 years ago, one of his other friends (a friend that knew him in real life and online) came onto the message board and told us that he had died.

I cried.

I don't think that the connection there gets anymore personal than that. I never once knew him in real life, but I felt real emotion when I heard that he died.

People think that online connections aren't personal (partly because there's this psuedo anonymity that most people realize DOESN'T REALLY EXIST), but they can be very personal. It's not the SAME as real life connections (and perhaps not as deep), but they can and are very personal connections.

"its' not the SAME as real life (and perhaps not as deep)"...

I don't know. it's just something in my experience and I can see a tendency to just keep jabbering away online and go back to my old closed in shell losing the joy of real people to interact with.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

usually if you hear in conversation "extraverted" it's used to describe a character flaw by introverts who are ignorant towards it, unfortunately.

I disagree, but this is just from my personal experience. I tend to find that when my introverted friends (and myself at times) are bothered by extraverts, they're bothered by the fact that they're too loud, not thinking before speaking etc.

I don't think needing to be around people a lot is seen as a character flaw so much by introverts..

My point was that shyness is often confused with introversion, and seen as a character flaw, rather than a natural tendancy

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

contrary to what you may think - I'm an introvert. It has always been founded on not wanting to deal with people because I learned how to deal with teasing by just not wanting to be around people.

if I don't know how to play basketball and tried to play - I'd get more tired than someone else who does. it's a skill. just like relating to people. it's also a choice - either people want to or not. people that don't want to learn are missing out on some fun times, imo. nothing wrong with that.

most introverts are also wishing they were able to have no issues relating to people, they wish it wasn't draining to be around people. I got there. It's fun - it's not draining any more. I dont' think I would have found some joys that I found before coming out of my shell.

I was shy and it was because of not feeling good enough and other false beliefs about myself - once I gave up feeling that way I was not as introverted and enjoyed people like never before.

I have not said there is something wrong with choosing to not engage in social interactions (I think). it just seems like a limiting choice that misses joys of knowing others.

the belief is that it's learned behavior that may not serve someone anymore and that giving up this behavior will feel more freeing. I would encourage someone spending too much time on the internet to find real people to hang out with. the extreme cases are missing out, that's all. nothing wrong - just a choice.



"its' not the SAME as real life (and perhaps not as deep)"...

I don't know. it's just something in my experience and I can see a tendency to just keep jabbering away online and go back to my old closed in shell losing the joy of real people to interact with.

I think I read a statistic that social anxiety has increased since internet communication came about..

I think there's some good points with internet communication and bad points.. and it's really just a matter of being aware of where exactly you build real world confidence, and doing whats best for you.

I personally think, through the internet that I'm a more interesting and open-minded person, and I've met a wider variety of people through the internet in the real world.. But I'm also working on my social confidence too in the real world too..

I guess the internet's a good place to develop skills for real world interactions, but it's not a good place to hide from the real world, in extreme cases as you mentioned

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by brendannz

I personally think, through the internet that I'm a more interesting and open-minded person, and I've met a wider variety of people through the internet in the real world.. But I'm also working on my social confidence too in the real world too..

ditto

I guess the internet's a good place to develop skills for real world interactions, but it's not a good place to hide from the real world, in extreme cases as you mentioned

good summarization.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by brendannz

I disagree, but this is just from my personal experience. I tend to find that when my introverted friends (and myself at times) are bothered by extraverts, they're bothered by the fact that they're too loud, not thinking before speaking etc.

I don't think needing to be around people a lot is seen as a character flaw so much by introverts..

My point was that shyness is often confused with introversion, and seen as a character flaw, rather than a natural tendancy

I was kind of just playing with the words and turning it around. I used to judge extroverts as being too egotistical - full of themselves.

[James81]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

contrary to what you may think - I'm an introvert. It has always been founded on not wanting to deal with people because I learned how to deal with teasing by just not wanting to be around people.

Sounds to me like you might be projecting your own issues onto introverts.

I mean, if you were TRULY introverted, then I think you would understand very clearly that introversion just means that you are drained by social interaction and require alone time to recharge your batteries.

If that is not your experience, then you are not an introvert. You may be an extrovert who has been "beat down" by the teasing and such that you crawled up in your shell to get away from it. (I don't know you, so I don't know that...just a guess based on that comment)

Originally Posted by wolfgang

if I don't know how to play basketball and tried to play - I'd get more tired than someone else who does. it's a skill. just like relating to people. it's also a choice - either people want to or not. people that don't want to learn are missing out on some fun times, imo. nothing wrong with that.

Learning social skills, a desire to learn, etc. have nothing to do with introversion or extroversion.

Introverts aren't missing out on anything by being alone. Introverts crave alone time because that’s where they draw their power.. Introverts inherently can have fun by themselves, dude. That's the whole point. And that's why I don't think that you are an introvert.

But that being said, introverts DO crave social interaction. They just know that being alone doesn't mean they are missing out on anything. Introverts come out of their alone time to be with people when they want to be with people. When they've had enough (or get drained by the experience), they go back to their alone time to recharge. Their "recharging" experience is what many introverts consider to be fun. And introvert is "missing out" when they don't take the time they need for themselves and force themselves into social interactions all the time.

Originally Posted by wolfgang

most introverts are also wishing they were able to have no issues relating to people, they wish it wasn't draining to be around people. I got there. It's fun - it's not draining any more. I dont' think I would have found some joys that I found before coming out of my shell.

Sure, introverts are most likely to struggle with social interactions than extroverts. I'll give you that. I think the "wishing they have no issues relating to people" is a projection, though. I would assert that more introverts struggle with finding their alone time than they do with relating to people though. And that's because our society is extroverted and actually PUTS DOWN being alone.

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I was shy and it was because of not feeling good enough and other false beliefs about myself - once I gave up feeling that way I was not as introverted and enjoyed people like never before.

Which means you probably never were introverted. Your misconceptions about introversion led you to believe something that was not true. Most likely you were an extrovert who had issues with relating to people, which made you uncomfortable with yourself.

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I have not said there is something wrong with choosing to not engage in social interactions (I think). it just seems like a limiting choice that misses joys of knowing others.

And see, an introvert enjoys people, but also knows that THEY are missing out when they can't get the alone time they crave. That's the point I'm trying to drive home here. "Missing out" by not having more social interactions is an extroverted thought. To an introvert, "missing out" means not being able to do what THEY enjoy, those creative, introverted, alone moments where they find joy. Introverts find their happiness and joy in those moments, and by cutting those moments out of their lives, they are doing themselves a great detriment. I DO understand that they need social interaction, but not as much as you might think they need.

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I don't know. it's just something in my experience and I can see a tendency to just keep jabbering away online and go back to my old closed in shell losing the joy of real people to interact with.

I would call that an online addiction moreso than anything else. When you allow your online time to close you off to the world, then it's time to examine your beliefs about yourself and see what you come up with. Chances are, you are choosing online interaction to close yourself off because of some limiting belief.

[wolfgang]

I get your points. It could be about balance and not having to define yourself as one or the other. I imagine now that both types are conditioned to be that way and that both types also need the other side to balance out or they are missing something. The introvert needs to balance out being with people with alone time. And maybe an extrovert needs to balance out alone time by going out.

I still think people were designed to be social and there is great joy there no matter what type you are. And there is probably the opposite, that people are designed to be alone at times to be quiet reflective.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I'm glad you enjoy yourself. when you are alone and not talking to anybody and never feeling lonely - are you jumping online?

I said without talking to anybody, didn't I? People online are real people to me.

As for everything else, I personally perceive the way you communicate here as having some kind of nasty tone which turns me off from replying to you. But it doesn't matter, James81 already explained it very well.

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

most introverts are also wishing they were able to have no issues relating to people, they wish it wasn't draining to be around people. I got there. It's fun - it's not draining any more. I dont' think I would have found some joys that I found before coming out of my shell.

I was shy and it was because of not feeling good enough and other false beliefs about myself - once I gave up feeling that way I was not as introverted and enjoyed people like never before.

I have not said there is something wrong with choosing to not engage in social interactions (I think). it just seems like a limiting choice that misses joys of knowing others.

the belief is that it's learned behavior that may not serve someone anymore and that giving up this behavior will feel more freeing. I would encourage someone spending too much time on the internet to find real people to hang out with. the extreme cases are missing out, that's all. nothing wrong - just a choice.

You write as though people who are introverted are somehow mistaken, that they just haven't "tried" hard enough. I was 29 before I found out what introversion was - and it was a HUGE a-ha moment for me! Before I read Please Understand Me I would find myself really drained after half a concert, or after a party, I'd be cranky. I didn't understand why when my friend came to stay with me - a friend I love deeply - I was relieved when she went shopping without me, leaving me at home alone. I had NO idea that I needed time alone! I just thought, "I'm not like other people." Reading that book really helped me gain the perspective I needed - there's nothing wrong with me! I just need to plan ahead: concert tonight, I need alone time before & after.

In reading that book, which is about Myers-Briggs types, I found out my "type" - INFP - is shared by only about 3% of the population. No wonder I felt misunderstood!

I LOVE being around people, talking, sharing stuff, going to festivals - but after a time, I need time alone. An extrovert wouldn't.

It does read as if you're not an introvert - only you can know for sure. There are quizzes all over the internet to find your Myers Briggs type.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by carenkh

In reading that book, which is about Myers-Briggs types, I found out my "type" - INFP - is shared by only about 3% of the population. No wonder I felt misunderstood!

In my arms, Caren! INFP here too.

There are quizzes all over the internet to find your Myers Briggs type.

The problem with those quizzes is that they (at least the few ones I have seen online, like this one) ask questions like "You spend your leisure time actively socializing with a group of people, attending parties, shopping, etc." or "You are a person somewhat reserved and distant in communication".

I can imagine how extroverts who are shy or have social phobia or some other issues around social interaction do not spend their free time actively socializing and are somewhat reserved in communication. So they're likely to answer like an introvert and mistakenly get an 'I' in their type, when they really are 'E's - just inhibited ones.

[coLLege kid07]

I think it depends both things. I could see it as a way to more socially isolate yourself or as a way to greatly enrich your relationships. I'm sure if you're feeling a little worried about this topic it's probably the latter.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I was kind of just playing with the words and turning it around. I used to judge extroverts as being too egotistical - full of themselves.

Yeah, actually to be honest, I probably have sometimes found extroverts a bit too full of themselves, myself, in the past...

I generally accept people the way they are, unlesss they do something offensive towards me..

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

In my arms, Caren! INFP here too.


The problem with those quizzes is that they (at least the few ones I have seen online, like this one) ask questions like "You spend your leisure time actively socializing with a group of people, attending parties, shopping, etc." or "You are a person somewhat reserved and distant in communication".

I can imagine how extroverts who are shy or have social phobia or some other issues around social interaction do not spend their free time actively socializing and are somewhat reserved in communication. So they're likely to answer like an introvert and mistakenly get an 'I' in their type, when they really are 'E's - just inhibited ones.

I'm an INFP too.. Theres lots of us online.. but only 3% of the population are, according to the book.

Being an INFP male can be a bit weird, I suppose..

Do the INFPs here find you daydream a lot?

[brendannz]

The same could be said about alcohol I think. You could use alcohol as a crutch for being able to socialise with others, but be completely inhibited when sober.. Just like having an online persona, and a completely diff real life personality

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by brendannz

Being an INFP male can be a bit weird, I suppose..

Why? I know a few male INFPs and there's nothing weird about them.

Do the INFPs here find you daydream a lot?

Yes. But I found a good way to deal with it. Is it a problem for you?

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

Why? I know a few male INFPs and there's nothing weird about them.


Yes. But I found a good way to deal with it. Is it a problem for you?

Yeah, no, being INFP and male isn't weird at all, it's just less of what society expects from a male, but yeah, I think everybody's a bit weird, how could it not be that way..

Daydreaming's a problem if I have to work in a 9-5 job but at the moment I work from home, so it's not such a problem at the moment, but I just get looked at funny if I really zone off and have a smile on my face, which often happens when I walk around the place.

Whats your good way to deal with it.

[Gregorz]

Seems like a completely worthless article to me that just draws rigid conclusions out of personal anecdotes. "I know a guy that has a bunch of myspace friends but no real-life friends, therefore the more active people are in online social networking, the more isolated they become in the real world."

Yeah, it happens, but to say that it's causal is just silly. This is sensationalist journalism on par with videogame violence.