at what point

[rose A]

does it go from horsing around to abuse and domination? My 18 yr olds boyfriend has always rough housed with my daughter. At first I thought it was playful. Then a couple months ago, I mentioned it to my ex husband that I didn't like the way he always seemed to be trying to hurt her. She would tell him to stop and he would continue. During their little episodes I would cut in and tell him to not hurt her. He would react by just giggling about it.

It happened a couple of days ago, he was holding her legs and tickling her feet and she was screaming for him to stop, which he only just laughed. That disturbed me. I had a talk with her and asked her how she felt that he was treating her. I told her that what he was doing wasn't sitting good with me at all. She replied that she is ok and she understands.

Me and my youngest went away over the weekend and I was worried about them being alone. I talked to her over the phone and they were going out to a movie with another couple on Saturday night. I more or less told her that what he was doing wasn't right and that I think its time he hits the road. I had my ex come and stay at the house so that the boyfriend would know that she wasn't home alone after the show.

My gut instincts are going crazy. Do I step up and put my foot down and break them up or let her do it. I know a part of her doesn't want to, but a part of her doesn't like the way he is treating her. She told me that she already talked with him and told him that if he doesn't stop that she can no longer be in the relationship. She replied to me that well he isn't doing it as much as he used to. This is driving me insane!

[Aware]

I can't imagine how frustrating it must be for you right now, it probably feels as though the situation is out of your control but it's confusing, because on one level you could put your food down and end it(I don't know how your daughter would react to that, but she doesn't seem to be fighting against your advice atm so I would expect she may accept it) or you can just let it pan out so to speak and let her stay in a potentially tainted relationship. You say she's 18 - so she's an adult, old enough to see for herself whether this is doing her any good, but the issue may be that she doesn't feel she has a good enough reason to end the relationship with him, she gave him a warning, but that's a long cry from actually ending it. Maybe you should say to her that you want to know her decision soon because she knows how you feel about it and you don't feel you(pl) will see an improvement in how this is going.

I hope it works out well whichever way.

[themaster]

Unless you know that the relationship with your daughter is negative as in true abuse beatings or whatnots and I mean that your daughter allows this.. I would leave it alone..

It sounds if I read your statements right.. you think tickling or a little childish games like playing tag are definitely not all right as a adult.. you should re-think your judgment system on this.. (the best way is not to judge) and you should be very careful if your daughter is in a rebellion stage that by you putting your foot down when she's pissed of enough/put off enough she may never speak to you again come the time she's ready to go out on her own.. Also remember if you try “action” to change the situation.. if your daughter really cares about him.. she’ll just go right past you, be it lies or whatever else..

The best control in this world is not actually in your hands via action.. (taking action or force is never the best thing anyway) there is a much better way to resolve this situation through loa then anything else.. I would simply tell you to find/feel your way to a better place on this and ask yourself why you think childish play (which is what it sounds like) is not okay?

[Angela]

At 18 years old, she's just learning how to set boundaries in relationships. You don't really have the power to break them up, and trying to do that will not only be ineffective, it will also cheat her out of the lesson she is learning -- how to set and maintain appropriate, healthy boundaries in relationship. It's not your job to determine the course of your adult daughter's relationships, but you can help her figure out how to take a stand for her boundaries.

For instance, if she tells him that she won't be in a relationship with a man who doesn't respect her physical boundaries, and she remains in the relationship, telling herself that he stopped doing it so much, the only things she's teaching him is that it's okay not to respect her physical boundaries, and that she doesn't keep her word.

To set and maintain a boundary that means anything, she must keep her word when she tells him what the consequences are of not respecting them. You could help her to set a boundary she can live with, whether it's an all-or-nothing boundary or a three-strikes-you're-out boundary or whatever. She'll probably need your help in being strong about bearing the consequences herself, because it can be hard to bear saying goodbye -- but she's not doing herself or him any favors by saying one thing and doing another -- she's just effectively signing an unwritten contract that it's okay not to respect her.

[Brutha]

My 18 yr olds boyfriend has always rough housed with my daughter.

I had to reread the post several time till I got the fact that you meant that you have an daughter that's 18 years old but don't have a boyfriend of that age.
It should be old's. Spelling out year also helps the readability.

It happened a couple of days ago, he was holding her legs and tickling her feet and she was screaming for him to stop, which he only just laughed. That disturbed me. I had a talk with her and asked her how she felt that he was treating her. I told her that what he was doing wasn't sitting good with me at all. She replied that she is ok and she understands.

It may very well be a game to both of them.

If you tell her that it's wrong instead of giving her the freedom to make her own decisions she naturally tells you that she will take with her boyfriend about it but that's different from actually making the decision herself.

You seem primarily to focus on what you think yourself about the situation but not so much about what you daughter thinks about it. At least that's what you told us.

[rose A]

For one thing, men show us how they are and what they are all about. He is showing her and me how he is. She has to learn that, especially when both of our intuitions kicked in.

I also called and talked to his mom this morning and explained what was going on. She agreed that he does the same things to her when they hang out at his house, and she has heard my daughter tell him to stop, and he continues. I also told her that for now, he is not allowed over here or she is not allowed over there. Its a time out for both of them.

18 or not, you're always learning. Am I doing the right thing? Maybe maybe not.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by rose A

I also told her that for now, he is not allowed over here or she is not allowed over there. Its a time out for both of them.

18 or not, you're always learning. Am I doing the right thing? Maybe maybe not.

I can totally understand you're not welcoming the boyfriend at your house. But not *allowing* her to visit his? "Time outs" for an 18 year old? Sounds like the boundary issues may be between you and your daughter!

[rose A]

childish play

childish play is one thing, when you know someone doesn't like to be held and tickled to the point of screaming and being told to stop and you continue time and time again is a dominance thing. Pushing her over the couch back and then pushing down on her legs when she is falling is not child play. Yanking on her arm and sending her into the back of the couch while she is talking with her girlfriend is not childs play.

as in true abuse

are you serious? Any time someone doesn't listen to when someone says no while doing something to cause harm to you is abuse to me. When does it have to be abuse to you, when a bone is broken or fractured? Then its considered abuse?

[Daffy Duck]

Punch him in the face and tell him you were just playing.

As a former 18 year old, this is what I would want you, as a mother, to do: Talk with your daughter about your concerns, and then let her make the decision to stick with him or not. If my mother tried to break up my girlfriend and I, the sh*t would have hit the fan and the whole house would have been a mess!

I know people like the one you're describing though, and they are a bit annoying. I have a friend who is into rough horseplay and it just gets old after a while. I've had to tell him multiple times to f*ck off. He has calmed down with time, fortunately. Something so simple as messing with personal space can ruin a relationship.

[rose A]

But not *allowing* her to visit his? "Time outs" for an 18 year old? Sounds like the boundary issues may be between you and your daughter!

yup. And its not between me and my daughter. This isn't about because I don't like the way the kid looks or how he wears his hair or his jeans. Its about his actions toward my daughter. Let the kid know we mean business. Don't turn this on me Angela, look at what is at stake here. Geeze.

[rose A]

Punch him in the face and tell him you were just playing.

As a former 18 year old, this is what I would want you, as a mother, to do: Talk with your daughter about your concerns, and then let her make the decision to stick with him or not. If my mother tried to break up my girlfriend and I, the sh*t would have hit the fan and the whole house would have been a mess!

I know people like the one you're describing though, and they are a bit annoying. I have a friend who is into rough horseplay and it just gets old after a while. I've had to tell him multiple times to f*ck off. He has calmed down with time, fortunately. Something so simple as messing with personal space can ruin a relationship.

Exactly Daffy, thank you. and if the **** hits the fan then the **** hits the fan. Bring it on. If it means safety for my daughter then be it.

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by rose A

Let the kid know we mean business.

We?

Has your daughter had a heart-to-heart talk with him and told him it bothers her and he needs to stop?

Originally Posted by rose A

Exactly Daffy, thank you. and if the **** hits the fan then the **** hits the fan. Bring it on. If it means safety for my daughter then be it.

Can your daughter not be trusted to make her own decision in her relationships? Has she not had enough experience falling on her own face yet?

Just be careful with the line between "controlling" and "concerned." It can be a thin one.

My mother was too controlling and frequently tried to butt into relationships that my brothers and I had, especially if we looked happy. The happier we were, the more upset my mother seemed to be with it. Nowadays none of my brothers or I talk with my mother. We purposely cut her out of our lives and in fact, we're not really sure where she even lives. We don't even care much. Just be careful you don't become a mother like mine, that's my concern.

[rose A]

yes , yes she has.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by rose A

Am I doing the right thing? Maybe maybe not.

Honestly, probably not.. but that's for you to learn now obviously and maybe you will and maybe you won't.. I wish you luck.. you may need a lot of it

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by rose A

yes , yes she has.

Sorry, I just noticed you already mentioned this in your original post.

She must not be serious enough.

If my girlfriend kept doing something that hurt me, especially after talking with her about it, I'd leave her immediately. I'd be very serious. Maybe you should ask her if she is serious? And if her actions will reflect her seriousness?

I'd wager, with time, your daughter would be leaving this guy, whether or not you stepped in.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by rose A

yup. And its not between me and my daughter. This isn't about because I don't like the way the kid looks or how he wears his hair or his jeans. Its about his actions toward my daughter. Let the kid know we mean business. Don't turn this on me Angela, look at what is at stake here. Geeze.

I'm not turning it on you, you are turning it on you -- her business, that is. You are making it your business to be in charge of your daughter's relationship, by determining where she's *allowed* to go, and assigning a time-out to a grown woman. Is your daughter mentally or emotionally challenged in some way that she needs you to "mean business" in her relationship -- like she can't handle it on her own?

If not, treating her like a child isn't going to help her learn to set better boundaries in her romantic relationships. It's more likely to have her feeling like now she's got to deal with her boundary issues with her mom, too. It's all related.

As Daffy Duck was saying, you don't want to end up being that controlling mom who gets totally cut out by her beloved daughter, do you? Cuz this is how it starts -- by not trusting your adult child to figure out stuff like this for herself.

I think it would be quite a different story if she was asking for and being given your assistance in finding a solution in her relationship, assistance that respects her status as a grown-up; but being saved by mommy works better for children than for adults. It's just a good way to stay stuck in a childlike, dependent state. I can understand you're wanting to intervene, but you don't want her to remain helpless and dependent, do you? Not allowing her the space to figure it out this time only means she'll find another guy to recreate boundary issues with next time. How old will she be before you're willing to grant her the trust to learn her own lessons as an adult?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

Punch him in the face and tell him you were just playing.

Actually, that might not be such a bad idea. I don't mean literally punching him in the face, which might put her at risk, but maybe it would be a good idea for her to learn some self-defense techniques, such as the one where she takes his hand and bends back his thumb in such a way as to render him helpless with agony (my martial arts-expert brother taught me that one).

It sounds like he's clueless about the consequences of his actions, and she's not helping him get any less clueless, with her (maybe) laughing and setting boundaries that she has no intention to keep. This young man may not mean any harm at all; he may be just sort of a nincompoop in this area, thinking that if she's laughing and not leaving it must not be so bad. Getting a little taste of the discomfort he's been inflicting might be just the ticket to waking him up to what he's been generating for his girlfriend.

She doesn't have to break his arm or anything. Just bring him to his knees, whimpering in pain.

[Daffy Duck]

I like the idea with the thumb move.

TICKLE TICKLE TICKLE
*thumb move!*
Boyfriend: Owwww! What the hell?!
Girlfriend: I told you to stop. Let me know if you want another.

Do this once or twice, and he'll either:

A) Hit her, at which point she calls the police.
or more likely B) he will stop doing it.

Still, it'd be nice if he just got the point, instead of having to cause physical pain. But hey -- whatever works for dogs will work for men. Ducks are a bit more sophisticated.

[James81]

The more you try to control this situation, the more you will find that control is slipping through your fingers.

Your daughter is 18 years old. And right, wrong, or indifferent you need to allow her to make her own decision here. Love has to be tough sometimes, even if it means allowing them to make mistakes that you see coming from a mile away.

I'm afraid that the only thing you can do in this situation is to warn your daughter, but allow her to make the decision herself. If she chooses to get into a relationship that becomes abusive, that's her decision.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by James81

If she chooses to get into a relationship that becomes abusive, that's her decision.

Owch. That has got to be a painful thing for a mom to hear, but it sure is so. Being a mother isn't easy, is it?

[Lauxa]

Since it sounds like he is mostly doing it out of fun-and-games and horsing around, I would recommend for your daughter to set up a "safe" word. Because just because she is screaming stop doesn't mean she isn't having fun, and it can be confusing for someone who is playing around because things can turn into not-fun really fast when there is no established signal that means "yes-I-am-serious-really-stop-that-right-now".

He probably thinks he is being cute...

[Milena]

I was in a relationship like this once (when I was about 18). Luckily I got out before I found out how abusive it would get.

I think what's more painful than knowing your daughter is getting abused, is knowing it doesn't bother her much. Whenever my ex-so continued to horse-play at my expense, I lit a fuse, and on one occasion I kicked him out of my house.

I believe that as a mother you should show concern for her feelings and well-being. This means asking her how she feels about these occurrences and teaching her that she should set limits. You should also tell her the signs of an abusive relationship (hopefully she's start noticing each one, and it might bother her some more). If he ever does cross the line, she'll think "hey, my mom was right, I need to get out right now".

And lastly, don't alienate her. Other people already mentioned this- if you set boundaries and limitations then you become "the bad guy" and your daughter won't want to listen to your advice. The best thing you can do is provide information, support and guidance.

And those are my 2 cents

[rose A]

I was in a relationship like this once (when I was about 18). Luckily I got out before I found out how abusive it would get.

I think what's more painful than knowing your daughter is getting abused, is knowing it doesn't bother her much. Whenever my ex-so continued to horse-play at my expense, I lit a fuse, and on one occasion I kicked him out of my house.

I believe that as a mother you should show concern for her feelings and well-being. This means asking her how she feels about these occurrences and teaching her that she should set limits. You should also tell her the signs of an abusive relationship (hopefully she's start noticing each one, and it might bother her some more). If he ever does cross the line, she'll think "hey, my mom was right, I need to get out right now".

And lastly, don't alienate her. Other people already mentioned this- if you set boundaries and limitations then you become "the bad guy" and your daughter won't want to listen to your advice. The best thing you can do is provide information, support and guidance.

And those are my 2 cents

exactly. For every one else. She isn't the one laughing while this is going on, he is, she is the one firmly telling him to stop that that is hurting him and he just laughs. Not the other way around.

I'm making her take a closer look at what is really going on. There is nothing wrong with taking a step back and assessing the situation. She is hooked in the relationship. She is defending him instead of realizing what he is doing.

She told me that she had a talk with him and told him she doesn't like what he is doing and if it doesn't stop that she cannot be in the relationship. Then I asked her how he was doing on that. Her reply. Well he isn't doing it as much as he used to. I nearly puked.

Eight months ago my instincts went haywire on this kid. I am tired of turning the other cheek and trying to convince my thoughts that this is just horsing around. The kid can never look me in the eye when he is over here. He answers me in snippy I don't know answers when I ask him something. He constantly puts my daughter down for what she chose to go to college for. This isn't a good relationship. He used to have guy friends that he would hang out with, now its just her. This isn't a good relationship.

She will make the final decision. I am just getting her head out of the fog for a bit and showing her what is really going on here.

[aelle]

Seriously? Horsing around and tickling have always been part of foreplay in my relationships...

I have to agree with Angela here. If your daughter were 14 years old, maybe you'd be right to put your foot down. Maybe. But she is an adult now. Whenever you interfere in her relationship, you prevent her from learning a lesson, and she will have to learn that lesson later on, probably with much harsher consequences. If she is forbidden to date a borderline abusive man without making that decision and implementing it herself, next thing you know she might elope with one. Let her make her mistakes and deal with them now that they don't have so fierce consequences.

My parents forbade me to see a boy they thought was bad for me when I was 14. They were probably right... but I did not have a chance to find out for myself. Next thing you know, I was 19 and in a very similar relationship - except that things tend to go a lot further when you're 19, with your own apartment and money, no curfews... than when you're 14. I understand why my parents made that decision, but I also understand that it was a stupid one. Let your daughter learn.

[aelle]

OK, our lasts posts were written at the same time. Your last message is quite different from your original one. If your daughter herself considers her relationship abusive, then your position is a lot more justified.
I still think that you should encourage her and support her to make the decisions that are right for her, but not do it for her. Unless she literally asks you to protect her from the boy, you shouldn't have to put an end to their dates.
Think about what a chance she has to grow here, how she can learn to be assertive and see her needs met in her relationship, how she can make decisions to get the best of her life - and with the best support one could think of, a caring, loving, respectful, non intrusive mother! What a great start in her adult life.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by rose A

yup. And its not between me and my daughter. This isn't about because I don't like the way the kid looks or how he wears his hair or his jeans. Its about his actions toward my daughter. Let the kid know we mean business. Don't turn this on me Angela, look at what is at stake here. Geeze.

Well actually it is, when I read this thread. You are making decisions for your 18 year old daughter. Whatever it is, it is not empowering to her.

I'm not saying that is wrong. You're obviously concerned for her, and want to protect her. The question is, what is an effective way to do so, and what (if any) are negative side effects? I wish you wisdom.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by rose A

She told me that she had a talk with him and told him she doesn't like what he is doing and if it doesn't stop that she cannot be in the relationship. Then I asked her how he was doing on that. Her reply. Well he isn't doing it as much as he used to. I nearly puked..

I think another question you might ask her is how SHE is doing on that.

[jeff3]

I've read and re-read this thread and either I'm missing it or Rose is projecting, I don't see any mention of her daughter being hurt. Possibly she is projecting her fears into what she is seeing. I understand the "gut feeling" , but I also know that my hopes and fears often are reflected in my perceptions. While it would be tragic to ignore something that needs attention it could be unnecessarily painful for your daughter and the BF if you are wrong.

I would suggest reading up on signs and symptoms of abusive relationships and taking a closer look. Either the guy is abusive or he is not. No only means "no" to someone who was taught that it does.I have actually had women tell me that no means "try harder", so from personal experience, "no does not always mean no."

You could have your daughter just tell him that when she says, "I really mean it, you have to stop" that she is dead serious and any further action is an offense. Make sure he understands that and that it is a serious matter and there are no exceptions, if he doesn't comply she should eject. A good example is my GF's 5 year old boy, he is a typical, high strung, only child of a single parent.....he has a little trouble with "no". To him, no means "try harder", and since I understand that in life sometimes "no" does mean try harder, whether it be in business or just situations in general I chose to leave him some room for exercising some persuasiveness.But, if I say "I am serious" before any statement, it is to be respected or punishment of some form follows. This works pretty good.

Also keep in mind that abusive relationships are a two way street and if he is attracted to her (and he is indeed an abuser) it is for a reason and running him off will only open the door for the next one until she makes whatever changes are necessary to stop attracting abusive guys. A lot of people don't want to hear that because they think I'm saying it's their fault. It's not that, it's simply some belief she holds that makes her a match for the beliefs the guy has. Sometimes it an obvious self esteem issue, but other times it not easy to see what it is.

BTW: I'm all for self defense classes. It increases situational awareness, improves confidence, self esteem, and lessens the chances of being targeted by predators.

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by Angela

I think another question you might ask her is how SHE is doing on that.

Right.

That's the real issue here, Rose. You probably can't just step in and stop your daughter from seeing him, or wanting to be with him. Like you said, you can only show her the door so many times. She needs to make this choice herself -- walk through the door herself -- or she'll never learn.

And by the way, I agree with you that he sounds like an idiot*.

* By idiot, I mean someone who is doing the best they can with the resources they have, right Angela?

I once had a whole bunch of people think I was an idiot. Why? I didn't go to their church!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

* By idiot, I mean someone who is doing the best they can with the resources they have, right Angela?

If pressed, I might say "nincompoop." Just someone who doesn't have a clue. But c'mon, how many people have a clue about effectively relating to the opposite sex when they're 18? There's a lot to learn, and some of the most profound learning is done inside relationship.

But I wouldn't approach it from the point of view of his nincompooposity -- I would approach it from my daughter's. If she takes a stand and tells him: "Look, I won't stay in a relationship who continues to do x" and then the guy continues to do x, even at a reduced rate, and she stays in the relationship, then she is not operating with integrity. She is training him to count on her not to keep her word. I'm not saying it's her fault; I'm saying it's her responsibility to maintain the boundaries that she sets for herself. A person doesn't learn responsibility for maintaining her boundaries when she's got a fairy godmother around to do it for her.