at what point

[carenkh]

You asked at what point does it go from horseplay to abuse, and the answer is - that's not for YOU to determine. It's between your daughter & her boyfriend.

Originally Posted by Lauxa

Since it sounds like he is mostly doing it out of fun-and-games and horsing around, I would recommend for your daughter to set up a "safe" word. Because just because she is screaming stop doesn't mean she isn't having fun, and it can be confusing for someone who is playing around because things can turn into not-fun really fast when there is no established signal that means "yes-I-am-serious-really-stop-that-right-now".

I wanted to pull that out. It may be that part of their play is rough & they both like to play rough, but your daughter doesn't feel like she can share that part of herself with you.

I'm having a hard time believing you even used the phrase "time out" in regards to an 18-year-old. Forced separation may cause her to see the relationship in perspective, it may also set up a stronger desire to see her boyfriend - either way, it's disempowering. What you're wanting is for your daughter to have the same feelings & beliefs that you do in regards to her boyfriend - she may or may not. But setting up parentally-imposed boundaries certainly won't help leave the gates open for discussion. Depending on your daughter's temperament, it's possible she'll become sneaky and secretive, which certainly won't help her stay open to seeing any other perspectives.

While you're patting yourself on the back for doing the "right" thing, you may be causing harm to your relationship with your daughter. It can seem uncaring to allow her to set her own boundaries, but doing so will strengthen that ability in her.

[TexasSky]

I don't think you can break up an 18 year old and her boyfriend, and I think that trying to do so will only cause her to cling to him and become more and more defensive of whatever inappropriate behaviors he participates in. She'll be so busy defending him against Mom, that she won't have a chance to step back and examine if she likes him or not.

It is very difficult to parent an adult. Every instinct that screams, "protect my child at all costs," is still in place, but the "child" is not a child anymore. Your legal authority has changed, and at this age your goal should not be "dictate for her own good," it should be, "support her in ways that give her the emotional strength to stand up for herself."

It may be that her screams of stop are more playful than real, and that she really doesn't want him to stop. It may be that her screams of stop are very real, and he is totally ignoring them. Instead of stepping into the relationship or the play time and putting your foot down, when the boy is away, talk to her about her. Her feelings, her rights, etc. Don't go in with, "I think your boyfriend is abusing you." Go in with, "You have the right to draw boundaries."

"Hon, when you and your boyfriend play around and you scream for him to stop and he doesn't, what is going on in your mind? Are you laughing and squealing stop in a playful way, or do you really want him to stop, but don't know how to make him understand you are serious? Do you know that it is okay to draw boundaries on physical behavior, and that he will respect you more, overall, if you do?"

Don't use phrases like, "I think John is dangerous."
If you have to go that route, turn it back to yourself, "I'd be so upset if someone kept tickling me after I screamed stop. I guess I'd be afraid that it was the icing on the cake. That if I wanted them to stop punching or pinching or breaking my heart they wouldn't listen to me then either."

OR, turn it into a build up of her. "Its hard to hear your screams ignored. You are such a precious, wonderful person. I want you to be with men who treat you like the beautiful person you are, and when I hear you scream I want your screams to be listened to."

Make it clear that she can always talk to you.
When they are around, if you HAVE to say something, don't come down like, "I want that stopped right now!" They are not children.

Instead, try something like, "Hey, everything okay in here? I'm hearing a lot of pleas for mercy and seeing no mercy. Do I need to get the hose, the police or a pair of ear plugs?"

[carenkh]

A friend just posted this interview she did - I thought it was very timely for this discussion.

[rose A]

She has repeatedly, in my presence, told him to stop, that this is hurting me. Firmly, and he just giggles and continues.

Well, she is going back with him, and I can only hope that both of them have a changed perspective to work with.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by rose A

She has repeatedly, in my presence, told him to stop, that this is hurting me. Firmly, and he just giggles and continues.

Well, she is going back with him, and I can only hope that both of them have a changed perspective to work with.

Rose, I really feel your pain. I bet you feel you're beating your head against the wall here. It seems that your current approach isn't working. She's gone back to him. Logic and reason isn't getting anywhere. The results speak for themselves, don't you agree?

You think you're in a dilemma: force her away from him and she resents you for it, or leave her to this guy's machinations.

I have a counter-intuitive alternative.

I think your daughter agrees with you logically. However, she is being ruled by her emotions here, not her logic. Love is blind. She's in a very needy state. She's attracted to him, and also dependent on him -- she probably feels she'd be helpless without him. Emotionally independent people don't put up with crap.

To get anywhere you need to deal with these two factors: her attraction and emotional dependency.

1) What would have to happen for her to find him BORING? What would have to happen for her to find him immature, weird and creepy?

2) What would have to change for her to believe she can find emotional fulfillment somewhere new?

She deeply fears being single. How could she WANT to be single? Maybe these things will happen naturally in time? Maybe when she's ready she'll just do it. Or maybe you, or somebody else in her life (friends, whatever) could encourage the process along.

Thinking more along these lines will be much more effective I think. You'll be working with the flow rather than against it.

[Daffy Duck]

I second everything Plato said.

I don't know your daughter but it seems to me you would have raised her "right" -- so eventually she'll make the right decision on her own. And people who make a decision on their own are much more likely to remember and learn from it compared to having the decision made for them.

I understand the frustration. Frequently I've seen friends and family do something that I recommended they do not do, and then I see them suffer the consequences. It's part of life, it's one way to grow.

[rose A]

originally posted by plato
To get anywhere you need to deal with these two factors: her attraction and emotional dependency.

1) What would have to happen for her to find him BORING? What would have to happen for her to find him immature, weird and creepy?

2) What would have to change for her to believe she can find emotional fulfillment somewhere new?

She deeply fears being single. How could she WANT to be single? Maybe these things will happen naturally in time? Maybe when she's ready she'll just do it. Or maybe you, or somebody else in her life (friends, whatever) could encourage the process along.

Thinking more along these lines will be much more effective I think. You'll be working with the flow rather than against it.

I agree with you on everything you posted and that is exactly why she needed someone to stop her in her tracks, put the brakes on and say Whoa. Get your head out of the clouds for a minute here, take a look at what is going on and assess the situation for what it really is. I am sick of repeating myself so I will leave it at that. I appreciate your insight on the situation.

I think everyone of you would step in if you were seeing something amiss in a friends relationship or a brothers or sisters, especially if it were something that was bringing them physical pain.

[rose A]

Daffy

I don't know your daughter but it seems to me you would have raised her "right"

Thank you for that, but it isn't even the fact that I raised her right. I know the person she has become on her own accord. She is an intelligent,happy, self assured, very mature and sound woman who has aspirations and determination. She isn't one of those flighty, love sick air heads that go ga ga over men. And because of who she is, that is why I knew I could step in and give her some guidance to what I was seeing. If I was wrong about the situation, then I was wrong and what I am thinking, I wasn't, because she had already had a talk about his actions with him. I appreciate your understanding coming from someone who isn't raising children yet.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by rose A

I agree with you on everything you posted and that is exactly why she needed someone to stop her in her tracks, put the brakes on and say Whoa. Get your head out of the clouds for a minute here, take a look at what is going on and assess the situation for what it really is. I am sick of repeating myself so I will leave it at that. I appreciate your insight on the situation.

I think everyone of you would step in if you were seeing something amiss in a friends relationship or a brothers or sisters, especially if it were something that was bringing them physical pain.

I agree that you could do something to help.

Emotions respond to symbols and imagery. Use the Law Of Attraction. Instead of getting her to think about what is going on, help her to think about new, brighter options. Give her the opportunity to know how good it feels to spend more time with her friends, and meet new guys. How exciting it is to start new relationships. The thrill of uncertainty and possibility. The freshness of freedom, and the power of feeling good alone. Feeling good on purpose, at any time, and place.

You know we attract what we think about. What we resist persists. Focusing on a negative only strengthens it. You drop a negative by...dropping it. Not trying to drop it. Just let go of this problem... move on to a happier place.

[rose A]

originally posted by Plato
Emotions respond to symbols and imagery. Use the Law Of Attraction. Instead of getting her to think about what is going on, help her to think about new, brighter options. Give her the opportunity to know how good it feels to spend more time with her friends, and meet new guys. How exciting it is to start new relationships. The thrill of uncertainty and possibility. The freshness of freedom, and the power of feeling good alone. Feeling good on purpose, at any time, and place.

You know we attract what we think about. What we resist persists. Focusing on a negative only strengthens it. You drop a negative by...dropping it. Not trying to drop it. Just let go of this problem... move on to a happier place.

So true, and will do. Thank you for that.

She informed me yesterday that she is taking a break from him. Her decision. Augh relief.

[Milena]

Oh hey that sounds like great news.

Ok, one more piece of advice:

Some times it's hard to leave a relationship if you don't have a lot of friends to spend time with and support you. Also, single girls tend to enjoy single friends and relationship girls, relationship friends (from what I've seen). If you don't want her to feel lonely and go back to him, suggest that she spend some time with other people. In case she was using her boyfriend as a crutch (who knows, maybe she wasn't )

[rose A]

[QUOTEoriginally posted by Milena
]Some times it's hard to leave a relationship if you don't have a lot of friends to spend time with and support you. Also, single girls tend to enjoy single friends and relationship girls, relationship friends (from what I've seen). If you don't want her to feel lonely and go back to him, suggest that she spend some time with other people. In case she was using her boyfriend as a crutch (who knows, maybe she wasn't ) [/QUOTE]

You are so right and I think they both started to become a little bit too attached to each other. At their age, friends go away to different colleges, move out of town, start jobs and alot of their time is taken up instead of finding time to hang out with friends. So I will (and I was always attempting to) encourage her to meet up with her friends more. Thank you for your advice.