Cheating or not cheating?

[ssandra]

From another thread somebody mentioned this:

Originally Posted by James81

Yup, and I can't tell you how many men I've heard who are willing to sleep with a girl who has a boyfriend (even if they are single).

Most men think that it's wrong for them to cheat on their girlfriends, but it's rare to find a man who realizes that it's ALSO wrong to have sex with a girl who has a boyfriend.

Cheating is cheating.

and most people seemed to agree... I didn´t say anything there because I didn´t want to get off topic, but I completely disagree...

I don´t think it is wrong to sleep with / date people who are involved in a relationship. You are not cheating, they are.

I am not arguing that it is a smart thing to do, but I don´t think it is morally wrong.

I was wondering what the general opinion about this was on this forum, and for those who say it is wrong.. why is it wrong?

[James81]

Let me pitch it to you another way...

You are taking a test. Somebody comes to you and asks you to help them cheat, so you supply them with the answers to the test.

What does the school do when they catch you?

You both get in trouble.

Answering "no" in this poll is just a form of denial. Cheating is cheating, whether you want to admit it to yourself or not.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by James81

Let me pitch it to you another way...

You are taking a test. Somebody comes to you and asks you to help them cheat, so you supply them with the answers to the test.

What does the school do when they catch you?

You both get in trouble.

Answering "no" in this poll is just a form of denial. Cheating is cheating, whether you want to admit it to yourself or not.

The fact if I would get into trouble or not does not mean that I (or you) would have to agree with them.

With regards to giving him the answers to a test... well.. if I got those answers in a dishonest way, that´s what I will be punished for. If I made that test previously and I kept my results.. Nobody will punish me for that.

If I am making a test and somebody next to me is looking at my paper to get my answers.. I will not stop them, nor think it is wrong, nor will I get into any trouble because of it (in NL in my highschool times at least I would not).

I am not in denial... I just disagree with you, I have a different view on what is wrong and what is right..

Why do you think it is wrong? And being punished for it is not a reason. Why do YOU think it is wrong?

[James81]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Why do you think it is wrong? And being punished for it is not a reason. Why do YOU think it is wrong?

I'll use Steve's logic on this one...

When you live consciously, you realize that everybody is an extension of yourself, so that what you do to others is really just an extension of what you are doing to yourself.

You have sex with someone who is in a relationship, you are causing someone else pain (i.e. the person you are cheating with's S.O.), assuming that they find out--which they usually eventually do.

So, by extension, you are doing something to someone else that you would not want done to yourself.

[Parthon]

I think it's wrong, but of course there's grey areas and unclear situations.

The reason why I think it's wrong is because you are enabling a cheater directly. It comes down to an individual and what they believe in. If you are helping another person cheat, then you are helping another person cheat, that's all. It depends on whether you think it's moral or not.

For myself, yeah it's immoral. But then again, I don't think cheating is a bigger deal as most people think. Sex is often confused with love, and that's what causes the bigger problem. The betrayal of trust is from broken expectations. People put far more stock in a simple act of pleasure.

Honestly though, how would you feel about the person that slept with your significant other. Would you be all forgiving and say "Oh, that's okay, they weren't the one that actually cheated. It was all my partner's fault." Definately not. You'd be angry with them both, because they were both involved in the act.

In the test situation, being the other person is being the person that willingly shows their test to the other person. It's one thing to have someone cheat from you because they looked. It's a completely different action to show them your answers specifically so they can cheat. Conspiracy to commit cheating would be a good name for it them.

So yeah, it's immoral in my eyes. It's conspiracy to commit cheating.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by James81

You have sex with someone who is in a relationship, you are causing someone else pain (i.e. the person you are cheating with's S.O.), assuming that they find out--which they usually eventually do.

I guess the difference is that I don´t see how I am causing them pain. That person couldn´t care less who I sleep with, except that it is their spouse.. Meaning that their spouse is causing them pain, not me.

[Brutha]

In the end it doesn't matter whether you put the label cheating on it or don't.

With regards to giving him the answers to a test... well.. if I got those answers in a dishonest way, that´s what I will be punished for. If I made that test previously and I kept my results.. Nobody will punish me for that.

If you give those answers to the person during the test you will get in trouble.
If you for example sit at the toilet and tell students from the exam who go to the toilet about the solutions and someone finds out you will get punished.
These days technology is also often small enough to allow hidden cameras that record the questions and earpieces that aren't visible (especially if the person in question has long hair).

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Parthon

Honestly though, how would you feel about the person that slept with your significant other. Would you be all forgiving and say "Oh, that's okay, they weren't the one that actually cheated. It was all my partner's fault." Definately not. You'd be angry with them both, because they were both involved in the act.

Honestly...? I couldn´t care less. I am not jealous and my husband can sleep with whoever he wants.

If you are talking for example about breaking trust and betraying me... I still would be angry at my husband not at somebody else. I don´t have a relationship of trust with somebody else, they are not betraying me, my husband is. For me, there is no logic in being angry at somebody else.

In regards to the test... yes, maybe that would be seen as conspiacy to commit cheating and I would get punished for it. But, I disagree.

I am not responsable for somebody else doing their own test. If I did mine, I don´t care who uses the answers.

I am not in the business of educating other people and raising them to see right from wrong.

[James81]

Originally Posted by ssandra

I guess the difference is that I don´t see how I am causing them pain. That person couldn´t care less who I sleep with, except that it is their spouse.. Meaning that their spouse is causing them pain, not me.

Originally Posted by ssandra

If you are talking for example about breaking trust and betraying me... I still would be angry at my husband not at somebody else. I don´t have a relationship of trust with somebody else, they are not betraying me, my husband is. For me, there is no logic in being angry at somebody else.

I can always tell the people who've never been cheated on, because they all say this.

When or if it ever happens to you, you get angry at the other person too. Why? Because you don't think logically when you find out, you think emotionally.

Yes, logic would tell you that it's your SO's fault, but emotionally? You want to beat the crap out of both of them.

[Plato]

This question makes no sense to me.

[Eric Roosevelt]

Originally Posted by ssandra

I don´t think it is wrong to sleep with / date people who are involved in a relationship. You are not cheating, they are.

I am not arguing that it is a smart thing to do, but I don´t think it is morally wrong.

Well, you'd certainly be helping the cheating process along, wouldn't you?

There are of course much worse things you could do than dating or sleeping with someone in a relationship, but generally I think it's good to avoid behaviors that could easily lead to pain and suffering for someone else.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by James81

I can always tell the people who've never been cheated on, because they all say this.

Funny, I would have thought the attitude would be more common to people who have had / are in a relationship with someone else's spouse!

[TexasSky]

Originally Posted by ssandra

The fact if I would get into trouble or not does not mean that I (or you) would have to agree with them.

With regards to giving him the answers to a test... well.. if I got those answers in a dishonest way, that´s what I will be punished for. If I made that test previously and I kept my results.. Nobody will punish me for that.

If I am making a test and somebody next to me is looking at my paper to get my answers.. I will not stop them, nor think it is wrong, nor will I get into any trouble because of it (in NL in my highschool times at least I would not).

I am not in denial... I just disagree with you, I have a different view on what is wrong and what is right..

Why do you think it is wrong? And being punished for it is not a reason. Why do YOU think it is wrong?

If you are knowingly and intentionally helping someone cheat, you are as guilty as they are; whether it is a test or a relationship. (By the way, by assisting someone in presenting answers to a test that are not their own answers, you are, in fact, cheating yourself.)

It is wrong because you are assisting in the act that is wrong.

In regards to a relationship, you are helping someone commit a betrayal. You are knowingly and intentinally helping violate the trust that a person has placed in the fidelity of the person you are cheating with. You have trespassed into a relationship. You have crossed a boundary that you do have the right to cross.

Legally this has been tested in court, and the party who you want to paint as the innocent had to pay a fortune to the spouse that was cheated on. They called alienation of affection. The court ruled that had the person who helped the partner cheat not encouraged the person to cheat, the cheating would not have happened.

[spirit4711]

I don't think it's wrong.

First, if I sleep with a woman who willingly cheats on her partner, and she believes cheating is wrong, that relationship is more or less doomed anyway. My NOT sleeping with her won't change that.

Second, it's her life, her relationship, her values, her responsibility. She wants to sleep with me and I say no because she has a partner, I assume a responsibility that isn't mine, and I belittle her in the process. I may say no for other reasons, but not for the single fact she has a partner.

Third, she may see cheating as perfectly normal - cheating is aligned with her set of values, even though society sees it as bad.

For me it's theory BTW - so far I seem to attract only single women who want a monogamous relationship .

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by James81

I can always tell the people who've never been cheated on, because they all say this.

When or if it ever happens to you, you get angry at the other person too. Why? Because you don't think logically when you find out, you think emotionally.

Yes, logic would tell you that it's your SO's fault, but emotionally? You want to beat the crap out of both of them.

That doesn't say anything about the choice being bad or not. People acting emotionally aren't always right... They should be angry at their partner for violating agreements (if they were made).

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by TexasSky

It is wrong because you are assisting in the act that is wrong.

Says who?

In regards to a relationship, you are helping someone commit a betrayal. You are knowingly and intentinally helping violate the trust that a person has placed in the fidelity of the person you are cheating with. You have trespassed into a relationship. You have crossed a boundary that you do have the right to cross.

The trust has already been violated by the partner cheating with me. Even if I don't participate, her intention was to cheat anyway.

Legally this has been tested in court, and the party who you want to paint as the innocent had to pay a fortune to the spouse that was cheated on. They called alienation of affection. The court ruled that had the person who helped the partner cheat not encouraged the person to cheat, the cheating would not have happened.

That says more about the silliness of the law than about the moral decision the topic starter wanted our opinion on.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

I don't think it's wrong.

First, if I sleep with a woman who willingly cheats on her partner, and she believes cheating is wrong, that relationship is more or less doomed anyway. My NOT sleeping with her won't change that.

Second, it's her life, her relationship, her values, her responsibility. She wants to sleep with me and I say no because she has a partner, I assume a responsibility that isn't mine, and I belittle her in the process. I may say no for other reasons, but not for the single fact she has a partner.

Third, she may see cheating as perfectly normal - cheating is aligned with her set of values, even though society sees it as bad.
For me it's theory BTW - so far I seem to attract only single women who want a monogamous relationship .

Right on here, and well put.

[James81]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

First, if I sleep with a woman who willingly cheats on her partner, and she believes cheating is wrong, that relationship is more or less doomed anyway. My NOT sleeping with her won't change that.

It's not about her. It's about YOU. The wrongness comes in in the same way the wrongness comes into supplying answers to a test, assisting someone in killing someone, etc.

You can't feign "innocence" just because you don't have a SO. You know what she is doing is wrong, and you are helping her do it. You most definately share some of the blame.

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Second, it's her life, her relationship, her values, her responsibility. She wants to sleep with me and I say no because she has a partner, I assume a responsibility that isn't mine, and I belittle her in the process. I may say no for other reasons, but not for the single fact she has a partner.

How exactly do you belittle her? Once again, it's not about her. It's about you and the standard with which you live your life. When you live consciously, you recognize that everybody is connected to you (as per el Steve-o, which I agree with). Essentially, you enable someone to inflict pain on their SO. It's not about controlling HER actions, it's about realizing the pain that her cheating will cause on her SO and having no part of it. So yes, as you are connected to everyone, you do bear *some* responsibility.

Granted, you can choose to cast off that responsibility, but it doesn't make it any less wrong.

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Third, she may see cheating as perfectly normal - cheating is aligned with her set of values, even though society sees it as bad.

Who cares what she thinks?

And why exactly would you go after a married person anyway? You have to realize that a relationship like that would be damaging to YOURSELF. First of all, you would have to keep it a secret (or rather, you would be pressured to do so)--thus, putting you out of tune with TRUTH (as per Steve's book, which I also agree with). Secondly, you would be making a connection with someone who can't really connect with you, who is known to be dishonest and deceitful, thus putting you out of turn with LOVE. Finally, your actions would be limited within the confineds of a paper-walled veil of secrecy and dishonesty, your freedom to explore the full depth of the relationship with her is hindered by that dishonesty, and thus puts you out of tune with your POWER.

When you are out of tune with those three things, everything else seems to come apart as well.

So, the lesson rings true...by damaging someone else (i.e. her SO), you damage yourself. Her actions do not matter here. Her values do not matter. The only thing that matters are your values and how they are aligned with truth, love, and power.

(btw, I'm assuming people here have read Steve's book, so that's why I am framing my point in that way....if you haven't read his book, you probably have no idea what the hell I'm talking about lol)

[garentee]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

I don't think it's wrong.

First, if I sleep with a woman who willingly cheats on her partner, and she believes cheating is wrong, that relationship is more or less doomed anyway. My NOT sleeping with her won't change that.

Second, it's her life, her relationship, her values, her responsibility. She wants to sleep with me and I say no because she has a partner, I assume a responsibility that isn't mine, and I belittle her in the process. I may say no for other reasons, but not for the single fact she has a partner.

Third, she may see cheating as perfectly normal - cheating is aligned with her set of values, even though society sees it as bad.

For me it's theory BTW - so far I seem to attract only single women who want a monogamous relationship .

Does it change your view if the Significant other is a friend?

[Ecce Homo]

Originally Posted by Plato

This question makes no sense to me.

Curiously, I had the same reaction. I don't know about you, but in my case, the confusion stemmed from understanding that a whole host of unspoken background beliefs would have to be true in order for the concept of "cheating" to be an objectively accurate one. Would “cheating” exist if no one believed it did?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Ecce Homo

Would “cheating” exist if no one believed it did?

Exactly! It's just a story that people tell about what has really happened -- someone has had sex with someone other than their committed partner -- and sometimes it doesn't even have to be a committed partner for some people to think it's *cheating.* It's a very *catastrophising* story -- no wonder people suffer about it.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by James81

It's not about her. It's about YOU. The wrongness comes in in the same way the wrongness comes into supplying answers to a test, assisting someone in killing someone, etc.

You can't feign "innocence" just because you don't have a SO. You know what she is doing is wrong, and you are helping her do it. You most definately share some of the blame.

I am talking about leaving responsibility where it lies - with her for her actions, and with me for mine.

I am not helping her cheat - she can do so perfectly well without me.

How exactly do you belittle her?

By in effect telling her 'hey I don't sleep with you because it's bad for you and your partner; you're dumb that you don't realize that so I'll decide for you'. In my view that smacks of arrogance and 'I am above you' - an attitude I've displayed too many times in my life, it's painful.

Once again, it's not about her. It's about you and the standard with which you live your life. When you live consciously, you recognize that everybody is connected to you (as per el Steve-o, which I agree with). Essentially, you enable someone to inflict pain on their SO. It's not about controlling HER actions, it's about realizing the pain that her cheating will cause on her SO and having no part of it. So yes, as you are connected to everyone, you do bear *some* responsibility.

Granted, you can choose to cast off that responsibility, but it doesn't make it any less wrong.

I get what you say. I choose another point of view. Maybe that makes me wrong. So be it.

Who cares what she thinks?

Me! Of course I care! Wouldn't you?

And why exactly would you go after a married person anyway? You have to realize that a relationship like that would be damaging to YOURSELF. First of all, you would have to keep it a secret (or rather, you would be pressured to do so)--thus, putting you out of tune with TRUTH (as per Steve's book, which I also agree with). Secondly, you would be making a connection with someone who can't really connect with you, who is known to be dishonest and deceitful, thus putting you out of turn with LOVE. Finally, your actions would be limited within the confineds of a paper-walled veil of secrecy and dishonesty, your freedom to explore the full depth of the relationship with her is hindered by that dishonesty, and thus puts you out of tune with your POWER.

I don't go after women BECAUSE they have a partner. I don't mind keeping secrets and I don't see how keeping a secret would hurt me.

Again, a person who cheats on his / her partner has already decided to end the relationship as it is - whether they are aware of it or not. It is up to them, not to me, to create the relationship that they want. It's up to me to create the relationship that I want, and to be fully responsible for that.

When you are out of tune with those three things, everything else seems to come apart as well.

I understand what you mean but for me it is not true that 'everything comes apart' if I sleep with a cheating woman.

So, the lesson rings true...by damaging someone else (i.e. her SO), you damage yourself. Her actions do not matter here. Her values do not matter. The only thing that matters are your values and how they are aligned with truth, love, and power.

If I damage her partner (a big if, in my opinion) I am responsible for that. We disagree whether I in such a position would damage her partner, her and myself.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by garentee

Does it change your view if the Significant other is a friend?

Yes - because he's a friend I wouldn't fall for his partner in the first place. Believe me, I've tried .

Kidding aside, I like many of my friends' partners but I don't feel sexually attracted to them.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Kidding aside, I like many of my friends' partners but I don't feel sexually attracted to them.

Yeah... with my friends' partners, there's some kind of automatic switch that goes off that says 'Unavailable... therefore not attractive'. Objectively, I can see that many of them are attractive men who conceivably I could have been attracted to if I met them independently. But since they're partnered to my friends, they seem like brothers. Even if my friends broke up with them, I couldn't think of them in any other way.

It's nice, it's the easiest way for me to enjoy a platonic male friendship. As a currently single woman, I find it very hard to have platonic friendships with single men.

[marinik]

Originally Posted by James81

Yes, logic would tell you that it's your SO's fault, but emotionally? You want to beat the crap out of both of them.

Oh you are so right!!!! Although it seems so silly today the first thing I did is call her up and ask her what did she want from my husband!? HAHAHA as if I didn't know! But the worst part is no female code of "honor" her husband left her for his student and then she attacks mine! Now I can laugh while writing this, then I was so hurt by the lies and the set of circumstances.... In hindsight I had it coming, left my husband in the middle of his midlife crises for a year galloping after my career.

But they were both in it! And she was the "ring leader"

[garentee]

Having been in a situation recently that could be called cheating, I know how much this kind of action cuts three ways. The amount of pain I brought on to myself and the others really caused a lot of toxicity and resulted in severed relationships which is OK given the circumstances but was fully unneccesary. It is cheating if one of the involved people in the relationship has an expectation of faithfulness. Some people are just put together that way.. I do know this...I will not put myself in such an unhealthy position anymore I care way too much about myuself and others to cause so much pain....

[Tasek]

I voted that it's not cheating. It takes two to tango, and as the third party you're not the cheater. Although often it's still a bad idea, for many of the reasons already mentioned.

However i'd like to present a experience with a slightly different angle; what if the cheating works out for the best?
I knew a couple, they had been together for years, were living together, but they had grown apart, it couldn't really be called a relationship anymore, they just weren't admitting it or doing anything about it (even though everybody around could already see that their relationship was pretty much non-existent).
Then there was a party, the girl was there, I was there, things happened. And this caused the girl to finally realise and admit the relationship was already over, and that she didn't want to continue with her boyfriend, they simply had grown too much apart. She broke it off, the BF resisted the change (denial was a big element in his behaviour both leading upto and after the breakup), but eventually accepted it.

Some nastiness ensued in the short term, but after a while things settled down. Girl and I dated for a while, didn't work out, but no nastiness there, it was fun while it lasted. Later she met another guy, much better fit for her, currently in a good relationship.
Occasionally see the guy, who is also now in a new relationship, don't know much about it, but AFAIK everything's fine there.

So although this wasn't a perfect breakup, the cheating at least forced them to admit to the fact that their relationship was over and wasn't coming back. It's guessing ofcourse, but otherwise they would have likely spent a long time still clinging on to the rut they were in.
So that's a situation where i believe the cheating actually was a good thing; a little pain but it prevented a whole lot more pain in the drawn out process that otherwise probably would have happened.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Ecce Homo

Would “cheating” exist if no one believed it did?

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant too.

Some people think outside the box, and some people don't.

For me there is no box in the first place! This question is trying to create a box, and my brain is rejecting it.

But even that sentence ^ is a box.

I'm freee!

^ "freedom" is a box too

I'll stop talking now

^ not talking is another box

that's a shame

^ shame is definately a box!

edit: I'm being a complete tit as usual. I do have boxes. They just happen to not mesh with this concept of cheating, or the many other boxes the question implies.

[ssandra]

I have never been cheated on, nor cheated myself, or been with somebody who is already in a relationship.

I would not do it myself because if I would have an affair (which in my relationship would be ok) I want it to be fun and entertaining and sneeking around to see each other does not sound like that at all...

What did gave me some thought is the assisting in killing somebody. I agree that that is wrong. But in theory it is no different than assisting somebody to cheating, yet I think you have no responsability there... food for thought.

Maybe because I cannot see cheating as a bad thing, yet killing would be a big NO for me?

[rose A]

I voted wrong. Duh on my part, so add one to the yes cheating and subtract from the no cheating.

IMO. If one of the participants is attached to someone else, there must be some form of sneaking around to hide the affair. So, I am not seeing it as an open relationship. By open I mean by being able to be out and about freely with out the consequences of being caught. By not being able to bring that person around to your friends because they might know the parties involved. So if the single/unattached participant knows this has to go on, then they are as guilty as the attached participant.

How desperate and egotistical does someone have to be to go after someone elses spouse.