Cheating or not cheating?

[Daffy Duck]

I don't purposely seek to misunderstand anyone. Perhaps we are both misunderstood.

OP, I doubt you mind that we started talking about ethics, judgments, and Will Robinson. Though, I do think judgment and ethics have their place in a discussion about cheating. If you do mind, I apologize for all of our derailments.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

...
You just did judge them as bad. You strongly prefer them to stop. We're probably using the "judge" word in a different way. You use the words "making a decision" in the same way I use the word "judge." But let's take a look at the word judge according to a dictionary: to form a judgment or opinion of; to infer, think, or hold as an opinion. Ah yes, Angela, you judge all the time! I know you have very strong opinions.

That is not the point. There is a distinction between judging people as good or bad, and judging their behaviour as good or bad. That is why I personally judge behaviour in terms of 'is it working (and in relation to what goal), or not?'. And I've learned through hard experience that judging people as good or bad is not working ever. As a society we have listed what behaviour is and is not acceptable. Not acceptable behaviour is corrected by feedback (from mild to harsh).

Of course people like us aren't going to judge a person as being Ultimately bad.

'People like us' sounds separatistic and superior to me. What do you mean by it?

If we believe that all comes from God, then ultimately, at their very core, at the spiritual level, that person is neither "good" or "bad" in the Ultimate sense. But if they came here as a human to grow, and they do a bunch of things that cause them to shrink, then they have done a "bad" job. In other words, they were a "bad human."

I wonder what the value is to label a human as bad? For me, such labeling shuts down possibilities. 'Oh, she is so bad, so I do not need to care for her anymore', for example. To me it's a shortcut, lazy thinking with damaging consequences.

...Everyone judges.

Yes. But how and what we judge makes the difference.

[Beuford]

I think in this specific case you are not cheating on anyone, in a sense that you would be cheating on a significant other since you are single, but you are cheating your friend in a way.

[Daffy Duck]

Hi Spirit,

I can answer most of your post with quotes from myself.

Originally Posted by spirit4711

That is not the point. There is a distinction between judging people as good or bad, and judging their behaviour as good or bad. That is why I personally judge behaviour in terms of 'is it working (and in relation to what goal), or not?'.

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

But if they came here as a human to grow, and they do a bunch of things that cause them to shrink, then they have done a "bad" job. In other words, they were a "bad human." [...] It would be "nicer" to call them "ineffective humans," or if you prefer, "humans that aren't doing what works."

Note: I never go up to someone and say "you're a bad person." I agree that's not effective. What IS effective is to not get hung up on the word "judge." People hear that word and they freak out! That's why I kept saying everyone judges, because it pushes buttons. But even after giving a nice clear definition of what I meant by it, the word STILL kept pushing buttons! It's like in Harry Potter, where everyone is afraid to say the name "Lord Voldermert."

It's just a word. When you say, "this human doesn't do what's working for their growth," another may say "this human is being bad" and mean the EXACT same thing.

'People like us' sounds separatistic and superior to me. What do you mean by it?

People like us who don't truly believe that anyone is evil. Many of us believe we're all connected, we're all one. People like us who believe and hope in an afterlife where someone has an eternity to grow and become happy.

I wonder what the value is to label a human as bad? For me, such labeling shuts down possibilities. 'Oh, she is so bad, so I do not need to care for her anymore', for example.

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

If you want think it limits you, then it will.

When I judge someone as a bad basketball player, it doesn't mean I never play with them anymore or don't offer tips to get better. Likewise, if a human is "bad," as in, if they do many things that are ineffective for what they want in life, then that doesn't mean I don't care about them!

To make it more clear: I am using the one "bad" like you are using the words "doesn't work." Some here think I'm using it in a more sinister way, as if I think they are Truly and Ultimately bad or evil. Why do some here think this? That's an interesting question. I would hope they knew me better by now.

Yes. But how and what we judge makes the difference.

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

Everyone judges. It's how you judge, that matters.

High-five, Spirit!

Everyone is free to go back, and in their mind, when you read my posts and see the word "bad," just replace it with the words "doesn't work." You may start to see that we are in agreement. And maybe we can reconsider how we react to the words "bad" and "judge." Besides, everyone judges.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

Hi Spirit,

I can answer most of your post with quotes from myself.

Heck, that means I didn't read carefully enough .

Note: I never go up to someone and say "you're a bad person." I agree that's not effective. What IS effective is to not get hung up on the word "judge." People hear that word and they freak out! That's why I kept saying everyone judges, because it pushes buttons. But even after giving a nice clear definition of what I meant by it, the word STILL kept pushing buttons! It's like in Harry Potter, where everyone is afraid to say the name "Lord Voldermert."

It's just a word.

Yes and no. Theoretically it's just a word. In practice, words are loaded with emotion. Judgment is one of them, so it's no wonder buttons are pushed. A more extreme example is propaganda: usually very emotionally loaded.

I agree with you that when I get emotional about words, it supports me to stop and check how come I get so emotional.

When you say, "this human doesn't do what's working for their growth," another may say "this human is being bad" and mean the EXACT same thing.

The point is that they may mean the same thing, but when they think they mean different things, their communication is not optimal.

People like us who don't truly believe that anyone is evil. Many of us believe we're all connected, we're all one. People like us who believe and hope in an afterlife where someone has an eternity to grow and become happy.

I'm a member of that club .

When I judge someone as a bad basketball player, it doesn't mean I never play with them anymore or don't offer tips to get better. Likewise, if a human is "bad," as in, if they do many things that are ineffective for what they want in life, then that doesn't mean I don't care about them!

To make it more clear: I am using the one "bad" like you are using the words "doesn't work." Some here think I'm using it in a more sinister way, as if I think they are Truly and Ultimately bad or evil. Why do some here think this? That's an interesting question. I would hope they knew me better by now.

I thought you were missing the distinction I wrote about in my previous post. Now I get that is not the case. However your communication was not clear in this area.

High-five, Spirit!

High-five, Daffy!

Everyone is free to go back, and in their mind, when you read my posts and see the word "bad," just replace it with the words "doesn't work." You may start to see that we are in agreement. And maybe we can reconsider how we react to the words "bad" and "judge." Besides, everyone judges.

How judgmental you are!

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Yes and no. Theoretically it's just a word. In practice, words are loaded with emotion. Judgment is one of them, so it's no wonder buttons are pushed.

I agree.

I was up to a few different things yesterday:

1. I was playing a bit of devil's advocate, which you noted you like to do sometimes as well.

2. I was challenging the linguistics of this forum. Most of us here prefer saying things like "what you're doing doesn't work" rather than "you're doing it wrong", even though these two things could mean the same thing. As you said, some of these words are loaded with emotion or prior conditioning. I'm not so sure some of these emotions are in our best interest. I do think it's a bit of a "hangup" for people, especially those who are taught it's "wrong" to use the word "wrong," which is a common theme in "New Age" material. It's always very interesting to me that what you're saying is often not at all important compared to how you say it. I could love someone more than anyone in the world, but if I don't express it in the "right" way, it will not be well received.

Damn, I overuse those quotation marks, don't I.

I used to be a counselor in some Christian summer camp things. We often played a lot of games. One fun game to try is a reverse of Red Light, Green Light! This is a great game to test consciousness.

Now, kids and adults are conditioned to think that red means stop and green means go, so the fun is telling them ahead of time that the rules are Red means GO and Green means STOP.

It's hilarious, especially at first. Everyone can get a big laugh. When you yell "Green light!" many of them will move. It's a big laugh when they remember that Green is supposed to mean stop. And this goes on for a little while until it sinks into their minds.

I felt like I was doing something similar here. This is what I mean when I said I was challenging linguistics. In one of my earlier posts, I said that "judge" means to hold an opinion, which we all have:

judgment: to infer, think, or hold as an opinion

And then I kept using the word "judge" over and over, knowing that many of us usually think of the word with a lot of negative emotion or negative meaning.

3. A part of me was hoping someone would yell SEMANTICS! at me, because that's exactly what I was doing. Instead of focusing completely on meaning, I was playing with words. I would have yelled it at myself a long time ago.

I sometimes say that to other people. Not to be offensive, but just to say, "Hey... I think you're getting lost in the words. Try focusing on the meaning." I often have to tell myself this same thing.

So that cat is out of the bag. I don't plan on challenging anymore linguistics here. It's a bit draining. Sorry to use so many words, and sorry if it annoyed anyone. Don't judge me!

marinik, have you noticed we tend to pick at each other in any topic that's about cheating? How funny!

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

1. I was playing a bit of devil's advocate, which you noted you like to do sometimes as well.

Using my weapons against me? You devil!

And then I kept using the word "judge" over and over, knowing that many of us usually think of the word with a lot of negative emotion or negative meaning.

Mmmm... is a bit manipulative, don't you think? Kind of hidden agenda?

3. A part of me was hoping someone would yell SEMANTICS! at me, because that's exactly what I was doing. Instead of focusing completely on meaning, I was playing with words. I would have yelled it at myself a long time ago.

Semantics is an emotionally overloaded word .

...
So that cat is out of the bag. I don't plan on challenging anymore linguistics here. It's a bit draining. Sorry to use so many words, and sorry if it annoyed anyone. Don't judge me!
...

Sorry, too late. You're in the 'tried, found guilty, sentenced and sent away' category now.

marinik, have you noticed we tend to pick at each other in any topic that's about cheating? How funny!

I'm not Marinik, but I suggest you have an unhealthy interest in cheating .

[always loved]

Boxes or not everyone must have respect for each persons life choices.Just because theirs don't jive with yours doesn't make it ok for you to willing involve yourself in something that will cause harm to another. If you don't believe in cheating per say,kudo's to you.If you know going in to it that the other does then back away.We are all one and people would do themselves and all others better service if we remembered this.

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Semantics is an emotionally overloaded word .

Yes it is. My fault!

Mmmm... is a bit manipulative, don't you think? Kind of hidden agenda?

Have you ever seen my cartoons? I'm a manipulative little bugger.

This was a little exercise in being conscious, perhaps for myself more than anyone. I was curious how this would work out. I would have liked to seen more responses and views on the use of "bad" and "judge". There were basically only 4 people involved.

[marinik]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

marinik, have you noticed we tend to pick at each other in any topic that's about cheating? How funny!

Yes, we do. And it is not funny. But there is no way I can explain how complex things are, and can not be judged from where you stand.

I was so furious when I answered your post that I wanted to get up in the middle of the night apologize and delete it.

But... most of it is true for me. When I was there in the US the hypocrisy and the almost militant missionaries, spreading the word of Christ, were the biggest issue with all of us, 22 nations.

Cheating is not a black and white issue for me. There are to many people involved, sick people, and me in the middle, also with a life threatening disease trying to make sense of it all. Love is beautiful, and you can love 2 people at the same time in very different ways.

Sorry for rambling...

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by marinik

Yes, we do. And it is not funny.

True, it was not funny. But we can step back and laugh at it. In my past arguments, usually with girlfriends, at the end of it we often started laughing at each other. We can't stay angry because we both know we mean no harm. So it's funny.

When I was there in the US the hypocrisy and the almost militant missionaries, spreading the word of Christ, were the biggest issue with all of us, 22 nations.

Where in the US did you go?

Cheating is not a black and white issue for me.

I understand your view. I just feel that honesty should be strongly sought after. I can't say I love someone and continue lying to them.

Sorry for rambling...

No need for apologies.

[wolfgang]

is the OP still in this thread?

first - I will base this post on assuming cheating is defined as when you are in a committed exclusive relationship and then go have sex and emotional bounds outside of that commitment. You have gone against the exclusive agreement thus you are a cheater.

now - If you are the third party and help someone go against their exclusive agreement - YOU ARE INVOLVED WITH CHEATING!!! It just so happens you are breaking an agreement with anybody when you are single but you are helping someone break an agreement, thus a accomplice in the cheating that is happening. Guilty by association.

If you want to pretend that, as a single person, sleeping with someone cheating on their exclusive relationship is not cheating then you have to also toss out that there's no such thing as cheating for those stepping out of the exclusive relationship.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by marinik

Love is beautiful, and you can love 2 people at the same time in very different ways.

You can not love 2 people at the same time without letting these people know you are loving 2 people at the same time. Otherwise that is not the kind of love that is beautiful in any way.

[marinik]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

You can not love 2 people at the same time without letting these people know you are loving 2 people at the same time. Otherwise that is not the kind of love that is beautiful in any way.

OMG another judge!!!!

[Daffy Duck]

Is it a judge or just someone else expressing their views?

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

Yes it is. My fault!


Have you ever seen my cartoons? I'm a manipulative little bugger.

This was a little exercise in being conscious, perhaps for myself more than anyone. I was curious how this would work out. I would have liked to seen more responses and views on the use of "bad" and "judge". There were basically only 4 people involved.

Goodness gracious. It all comes out, Daff.

Ah well, as we say this side of the pond, bottoms up.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

You can not love 2 people at the same time without letting these people know you are loving 2 people at the same time. Otherwise that is not the kind of love that is beautiful in any way.

Surely it's all an egoic illusion? Or have you decided ego is the good, ego is fun, ego will not make my fingers swell.

Btw, if anybody gets the reference I just made to a certain Disney TV show ^ you're a very sad person!

[marinik]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

Is it a judge or just someone else expressing their views?

My dear DD if someone says "in my opinion..." "from my experience..." then I can treat it as a view but when stated

You can not love 2 people at the same time without letting these people know you are loving 2 people at the same time. Otherwise that is not the kind of love that is beautiful in any way.

then it is a judgment! Any judgments to ad ?????

[Daffy Duck]

Heheh I was largely poking fun at the topic of my previous posts.

Whether or not someone says "in my opinion," I always add that onto everyones posts in my mind. Because clearly, it is just their opinion. Know what I mean?

Of course, that's just my opinion! The only exception is with Plato. He doesn't express opinions -- everything he says is just wrong. I'm joking!!

[Daffy Duck]

This is a bit off topic but it's quite amusing so I thought I'd share.

marinik, I was doing an innocent little search about Gantt Views (used in project management). It led me to this site: Online Project Management Software Free and Tools: Project Management, Collaboration, Communication, Tracking - COMINDWORK

From that site, under the Testimonials section, I saw a link to Kostya Kovalenko's site, and I was curious, so I checked it out: Kostya on love, life and money

From Kostya's journal, I saw a link to his forum, so I checked it out: Klaus Joehle 'Living on Love' books :: View topic - 30 day Love trial

And oh my God, it's you! LOL! Small Internet!!

[drakecatz]

[

QUOTE=Daffy Duck;381349

Of course, that's just my opinion! The only exception is with Plato. He doesn't express opinions -- everything he says is just wrong. I'm joking!!

[/QUOTE]

I like to tell Plato he's "cute." In this case it goes to you Daffy!

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by marinik

OMG another judge!!!!

So it just seems like logic to me.

I am assuming whoever posted about loving 2 people was as in being intimate and pretending to be exclusive with both of them while not telling these 2 people about the other.

The logic behind this is also assuming loving someone means being honest about an agreement of being exclusive.

So if that agreement is not followed and someone is trying to "love" 2 people at the same time - what kind of love is that?

Would that be beautiful?

Is it beautiful to tell someone you are exclusive with them meanwhile not being honest about that and finding someone else to be non-exclusive with?

How would someone be able to "love" like that?

It's a big lie to live with in a relationship.

It's not a judgment. It's a logical conclusion based on the assumptions of what loving 2 people under those conditions would be like. It wouldn't be love - it would be lying and manipulating and immaturity and the opposite of love.

Unless we redefine love as no need to be honest and open and it's ok to lie about being exclusive.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by LWr

Bad analogy. You are both taking the test, so yes, you are cheating by supplying the answers.

However, you are not in a relationship with the girl's boyfriend, SHE is.
Therefore, she is cheating, you aren't.

the matter is she wouldn't be cheating if the single person wasn't being with her. it takes two to tango. the single person is helping her cheat.

another way to say it is that the two sneaking around pretending to be a couple are cheating together.

the single person is lying to the girl's boyfriend too. the lie is still there from the single person to the girl's boyfriend, in other words. maybe it's not called cheating but it's still carrying on with a lie and not being honest.

[JRhodes]

It's not cheating to sleep with someone else if they have a partner and you're single, however what you're doing is still wrong.

Imagine if you had a single friend that slept with your partner, and their excuse was "hey, I'm single!", that wouldn't hold much weight with me.

[James81]

Originally Posted by JRhodes

It's not cheating to sleep with someone else if they have a partner and you're single, however what you're doing is still wrong.

Imagine if you had a single friend that slept with your partner, and their excuse was "hey, I'm single!", that wouldn't hold much weight with me.

Exactly.

Anybody who lives by the "golden rule" could never possibly think that doing this is right.

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by JRhodes

It's not cheating to sleep with someone else if they have a partner and you're single, however what you're doing is still wrong.

Imagine if you had a single friend that slept with your partner, and their excuse was "hey, I'm single!", that wouldn't hold much weight with me.

Yes, exactly. Good analogy. I'm remembering that one.