Cheating or not cheating?

[James81]

Originally Posted by Ecce Homo

Would “cheating” exist if no one believed it did?

That doesn't matter.

It's not the physical act of sex that matters with cheating, it's the dishonest, deceit, and lying.

If you set up a construct where it's possible to cheat, then you need to honor the rules of that construct.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by rose A

How desperate and egotistical does someone have to be to go after someone elses spouse.

Look at it another way: how desperate and egotistical must someone be to think that they are *owed* sexual fidelity by another human being for their entire life? How much desperation and egotism feel as they suffer because the person they love most made love with someone?

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by rose A

...So if the single/unattached participant knows this has to go on, then they are as guilty as the attached participant.

Guilty of what? It's not a crime...

How desperate and egotistical does someone have to be to go after someone elses spouse.

LOL you're funny! Read my reply before: I don't sleep with a woman BECAUSE she has a partner! I would sleep with her because we attract each other and as consenting adults it's our business and nobody else's. Her partner obviously has an interest, but he and she should work that out. Not me.

Maybe I'm egotistical (who knows, never heard people call me that) but I certainly don't feel desperate. So the literal answer to that question is: not at all.

[Ecce Homo]

Originally Posted by James81

It's not the physical act of sex that matters with cheating, it's the dishonest, deceit, and lying.

If you set up a construct where it's possible to cheat, then you need to honor the rules of that construct.

I agree, especially when I believed that my partner should always tell me the truth and the reality is they didn’t. Here's my experience. When I create a mental construct about how people are supposed to treat me and they don’t live up to that inevitably it hurts like hell. I learned that one the hard way. I tend to be a slow learner when it comes to these things! Later on I noticed that I was freer to feel more love for and joy with people when I saw that my concepts and constructs about who they should be weren’t necessarily accurate or reliable. And I also noticed that I felt this increased love for them regardless of whether they were always honest with me or not.

"Extraordinary" love is way cooler than ordinary (i.e. strictly conditional) love, in my experience.

[TexasSky]

Originally Posted by Angela

Exactly! It's just a story that people tell about what has really happened -- someone has had sex with someone other than their committed partner -- and sometimes it doesn't even have to be a committed partner for some people to think it's *cheating.* It's a very *catastrophising* story -- no wonder people suffer about it.

If it is not a "committed partner" it is not cheating.
However, the op specifically addressed committed relationships.
So any discussion of relationships where is not committment involved on any party's end is irrelevant to this discussion.

[TexasSky]

Originally Posted by Angela

Look at it another way: how desperate and egotistical must someone be to think that they are *owed* sexual fidelity by another human being for their entire life? How much desperation and egotism feel as they suffer because the person they love most made love with someone?

If you don't feel you are mature enough to commit yourself to fidelity with one individual, by all means, don't take vows that indicate you are.

Marriage, however, IS a vow of fidelity in almost every culture in the world. There are, of course, limited exceptions to that. VERY limited exceptions.

[TexasSky]

Originally Posted by James81

That doesn't matter.

It's not the physical act of sex that matters with cheating, it's the dishonest, deceit, and lying.

If you set up a construct where it's possible to cheat, then you need to honor the rules of that construct.

This is correct.
The foundation of any relationship is trust.
Once trust is gone, the relationship will fail.

In regards to marriage. A couple has made a promise of fidelity and a committment to certain relationship limits. Unless they go to their spouse and say, "My committment to you does not include fidelity, or the standardly accepted social limits of marriage," they have lied, even if it is a lie by ommission.

If the entire world things you mean H20 when you are referring to water, and you alone decide that you want h20 to mean tar, you cannot later claim that you were innocent when people think you lied to them because you promised them water and gave them tar. They had a reasonable expectation to get H20 when you promised them water.

[ceegeez]

I had a similar issue which I posted on "Truth and polyamory" in this section. I wanted to find out how to look at a situation like this from the perspective of truth. What I learned from it was that it doesn't really matter how it is viewed from an outside point of view (is it cheating or not), but how I myself would answer the following questions: How do I feel in this situation? Does it feel good or not? Does it feel right or not? Do I want to be close to someone who does not share my values?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by TexasSky

If it is not a "committed partner" it is not cheating.
However, the op specifically addressed committed relationships.
So any discussion of relationships where is not committment involved on any party's end is irrelevant to this discussion.

Well, in fact the OP referred to "girlfriends" and "boyfriends;" and some people would disagree about what constitutes a "committed partner." We've had people around here call it "cheating" when they'd been dating someone for four months, and hadn't had yet had The Talk -- but they still consider that person their partner. The man might be thinking he's in a "committed relationship" and "his" woman would be cheating if she had sex with spirit4711 (for instance), and she might have no such constraints.

Personally, I don't call it "cheating" even in married couples who break their promise -- unless maybe it's at poker or scrabble. Having sex with someone other than your spouse is what happens, "cheating" is the story people tell about it.

So I reckon my comment was on topic, after all.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by TexasSky

This is correct.
The foundation of any relationship is trust.
Once trust is gone, the relationship will fail.

...

Exactly in line with what I wrote here:

Originally Posted by spirit4711

...
Again, a person who cheats on his / her partner has already decided to end the relationship as it is - whether they are aware of it or not.
...

However the relationship does not inevitably fail (in the sense of ending) - but it will definitely change, often resulting in a break up. I actually know from friends of mine of whom one was cheating that after a big crisis their relationship actually got stronger. It is all about their intentions.

[munish]

Mommy's Little Secret - Globe and Mail 14DEC02

[azzyboo]

Originally Posted by Angela

Well, in fact the OP referred to "girlfriends" and "boyfriends;" and some people would disagree about what constitutes a "committed partner." We've had people around here call it "cheating" when they'd been dating someone for four months, and hadn't had yet had The Talk -- but they still consider that person their partner. The man might be thinking he's in a "committed relationship" and "his" woman would be cheating if she had sex with spirit4711 (for instance), and she might have no such constraints.

Personally, I don't call it "cheating" even in married couples who break their promise -- unless maybe it's at poker or scrabble. Having sex with someone other than your spouse is what happens, "cheating" is the story people tell about it.

So I reckon my comment was on topic, after all.

Can I just say how I always love your opinion on things, and as usual I am finding myself agreeing with everything you say.

[rose A]

HOW? Read your own words Angela.

because the person they love most made love with someone?

Thats how. And like Texasky mentioned, we are talking about a commited relationship. You made a vow somewhere along the line to be exclusive, and if someone goes against that vow willingly, they are cheating, breaking that vow.

"cheating" is the story people tell about it.

It's not the story its the act.

Guilty of what? It's not a crime...

it doesn't have to be a crime. Stop being so silly.

originally posted by spiritI don't sleep with a woman BECAUSE she has a partner! I would sleep with her because we attract each other and as consenting adults it's our business and nobody else's. Her partner obviously has an interest, but he and she should work that out. Not me.

You know that is the lack of caring if you are doing something right or wrong. Thinking to yourself before you act on an impulse. Will this act hurt someone. Will I regret my actions later on? tsk tsk tsk.

Hey, I know a couple of guys, no actually just one, who sleep with the women because they are attached to someone else. No breakfast, no nothing, just kick them to the curb in the morning and go about their day. hummmm maybe I now know two of those guys.

[Bas]

If two people have an agreement that they are exclusive to each other and you knowingly let a person break this agreement via you, then you're part of the problem.

Let them break off the agreement before sleeping with you.


Actually, I've seen in the past with some friends that they slept with someone while they were still with someone else... later they end up getting into a relationship, but how can you ever be sure that the same won't happen to you? Bad seeds, bad seeds.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by rose A

...
it doesn't have to be a crime. Stop being so silly.
...

Maybe you can stop being judgemental? You and I obviously have different value systems. That's no problem for me. I am interested in other points of view even if I don't share them.

You know that is the lack of caring if you are doing something right or wrong. Thinking to yourself before you act on an impulse. Will this act hurt someone. Will I regret my actions later on? tsk tsk tsk.

You call it lack of caring. I call it leaving responsibility where (in my view) it lies. I've written in this thread about that. What I'm not clear on is how you view responsibility in this area?

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by rose A

...Hey, I know a couple of guys, no actually just one, who sleep with the women because they are attached to someone else. No breakfast, no nothing, just kick them to the curb in the morning and go about their day. hummmm maybe I now know two of those guys.

That's not what I wrote. Read again, please.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by rose A

You made a vow somewhere along the line to be exclusive, and if someone goes against that vow willingly, they are cheating, breaking that vow.
It's not the story its the act.

Yes, I get that you believe that. And your belief has life occurring for you that way -- that people "cheat" and there are lots of cheaters! Because many people have sex with someone other than their committed partner. (And, as I mentioned, many people feel it's cheating even if the commitment is unspoken). We've had loads of people here in these forums alone who complain that someone *cheated* on them, when their "commitment" was nothing more than some unspoken personal or social convention that if you've been dating or sleeping together for a particular length of time (which can be as short as 2 dates or 1 bonk) then you are "in a relationship" -- which to many people means: there's an implied commitment.

If, on the other hand, your belief is that if someone breaks a promise that they made willingly, that means that they are doing the best they can with the resources they have available, that's how life would occur for you. No cheaters at all. Wouldn't it be nice if there were no cheaters? Good news -- there aren't! Depending on your perspective.

But it sounds like you believe your perspective is *Reality* or *The Truth* -- so I can understand why it would be difficult for you to understand mine or why mine may irritate you.

[MidasGirl]

It is always up to the person that is in a contractual agreement to abide by the rules of that agreement. You can never shift the burden onto someone else. But of course, when someone is cheated on it's so much easier to let loose on the "3rd party" rather than face the real hard work of confronting the demons of the person you are in a relationship with. If you are in a monogamous relationship, explicit or implicit, then you will never solve anything by looking outside of your relationship.

If you are attracted to someone in a monogamous relationship and they agree to be intimate with you, well sure, that is disregarding the feelings and life of the partner. And certainly you are creating your own karma by knowingly inflicting pain on another person. You could of course choose to walk away. But it is not your responsibility to ensure their fidelity.

[funchy]

Cheating is breaking of the agreement between the people concerning the boundaries of the relationship. While some people don't believe in monogamous relationships, that doesn't make their sexual acts with someone else's committed partner right.

I think it says something about a person if he/she is willing to assist in someone else breaking their promise to another. One day when you do settle down with someone, what would you think of a friend who consented to having sex with your partner behind your back? It's not OK.

I don't have a problem with people being in open relationships, but that wouldn't be "cheating" so it does not apply here.

[TexasSky]

Originally Posted by Angela

Well, in fact the OP referred to "girlfriends" and "boyfriends;" and some people would disagree about what constitutes a "committed partner." We've had people around here call it "cheating" when they'd been dating someone for four months, and hadn't had yet had The Talk -- but they still consider that person their partner. The man might be thinking he's in a "committed relationship" and "his" woman would be cheating if she had sex with spirit4711 (for instance), and she might have no such constraints.

Personally, I don't call it "cheating" even in married couples who break their promise -- unless maybe it's at poker or scrabble. Having sex with someone other than your spouse is what happens, "cheating" is the story people tell about it.

So I reckon my comment was on topic, after all.

I "reckon" you need to learn the english language.

Dictonary definitions of cheating include:
"Adulterous: Not faithful to a spouse or lover."
"Deception for profit to yourself"
"Violating standard accepted standards or rules"
"Lying, deception, fraud, trickery"

If you participate in helping an individual who has made a vow of fidelity or exclusiveness break that vow, you have participated in helping them be unfaithful. You have violated standardly accepted standards and rules, and in the majority of times, you have helped them with deception for profit to yourself, and helped them in lying and deceit."

ALL of which makes it "cheating".

[Plato]

Originally Posted by funchy

that doesn't make their sexual acts with someone else's committed partner right.

It doesn't make it wrong either.

Right and wrong are stories, just like "cheating"

Yeah but yeah but yeah but.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by TexasSky

I "reckon" you need to learn the english language.

Whoa, there, Tex! No need to go all kittywompus. I'm pretty well versed in the English language (it's capitalized, by the way!), and although you may have the dictionary definitions of the word down pat, what I'm saying is that if you believe all that is "cheating," then you are assigning a story to it -- one that is loaded with negative emotion. The act itself is one thing, and then there's the story you tell about it. If you tell yourself it's cheating, you are making your partner wrong -- the story of cheating is the story of wrongness. That's fine; it's certainly a valid perspective. But it's not the only perspective. Another story, or set of beliefs you might cultivate is:

"My husband promised me he'd never have sex with another woman until the end of forever. And he had sex with another woman before that date, after all; he broke his promise not to. Is that a deal breaker for me, with no further discussion necessary? Maybe. More likely, it's an opening for discussion -- I love this guy and would like to do everything in my power to have this relationship work well.

Maybe after talking with him, I find that it is in fact a deal breaker, and it's time to let him go with love. I am freeing myself to create the kind of relationship I really want, with a person who wants the same thing. And since my husband doesn't want that same thing, I wish that he will find what he is looking for, too. I love him, after all; that hasn't changed.

Or maybe this would be a good time to re-think this "until the end of forever" thing. That is not the most reasonable vow I've ever made, and maybe it's not necessary for our marriage to be happy (and, well, maybe it IS.) Either way, this would be a good time to rethink it, reevaluate, and recommit if that's what there is to do.

And maybe the most valuable thing I can do for myself is to look boldly at who I am being that my dearest friend found it necessary to break his promise or to lie to me or go have sex with another woman. As I take 100% responsibility for this relationship (not the stingy 50% that ordinary people feel is just fine, thank you very much ), I move into a place of power where I can make a difference -- whether I stay in this relationship, or I say goodbye with love. Taking 100% responsibility means for me that regardless of what he says, does, or thinks, I am in charge of my state -- not him, not anyone else.

No one has *cheated* anyone out of anything here. My husband has, instead, presented me with a golden opportunity for personal growth. Now, what am I going to do with this golden opportunity?"

ALL of which makes it "cheating".

Or you can believe that, if that works well for you. Like I said, it's a perfectly valid, and very common choice.

[Ecce Homo]

Originally Posted by Plato

It doesn't make it wrong either.

Right and wrong are stories, just like "cheating"

Yeah but yeah but yeah but.

Yeah, but "yeah buts" are great conversation continuers! I reckon great conversations would come to a screeching halt if one of the parties didn't interject a "yeah but" somewhere.

[rose A]

originally posted by Angela
I love this guy and would like to do everything in my power to have this relationship work well.

Well whats not working? In your reality there are no cheaters, there are no breaking of any promises. What would you and your husband have to discuss?

deal breaker

Oh now its a deal breaker.......

[jfrancis]

Thank you, Angela.

Back to the original question: I don't think it's morally wrong. Let the tsk tsk-ers and supermarket tabloids answer that for you. (And if that is where you are looking for answers, well then that's another story...)

Is it a good idea? Probably not. Using the word 'cheating' (to me) implies that all parties are NOT fully informed and in agreement with the course of action. In that case are you being honest with the other people or yourself? Are you participating in something that you feel compelled to keep secret? If that is the case, that would be a great big red flag!!!

Having been a "cheater" I can say that was the hardest aspect for me to come to terms with, and the issue of honesty (or lack thereof) can be a huge dealbreaker in a relationship, and just for general self-acceptance- I want to be an open an honest person, and by cheating I created the proverbial 'skeleton in the closet' scenario. And that is a Problem. And this goes for the other parties involved, too. If you are doing things that you aren't proud of, why do them??? I am not saying you should or shouldn't do anything to win anyone else's approval. I am just saying, think about how it might play out in your relationships (including your tsk-tsking aunt Rita)...it's not an issue of right or wrong here. If you have NO problem with it, and would gladly and honestly speak about what you're up to, and live with the consequences, then by all means, do it...but there are consequences, big ugly nasty ones that you might not see. So I guess my point is: just be honest. Do what you want, but be honest. Then is it 'cheating?' That's a different kind of question, I guess.

[rose A]

spirtWhat I'm not clear on is how you view responsibility in this area?

I would view you having responsibility because you are involved. You are the third person.

I did read your post and I do understand what you wrote, but if you become involved with a person who you know is involved with someone else, you willingly allow yourself to be involved with someone who is involved with someone else. Geeze, do I talk in circles much....it just came out that way.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by rose A

I would view you having responsibility because you are involved. You are the third person.

OK, clear.

I did read your post and I do understand what you wrote, but if you become involved with a person who you know is involved with someone else, you willingly allow yourself to be involved with someone who is involved with someone else.

Yes. I hope you'll not lynch me for that?

[rose A]

I hope you'll not lynch me for that?

never, we are just discussing different points of views. ......

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by rose A

never, we are just discussing different points of views. ......

I love you too! ('wass sich liebt dass neckt sich' or: you argue most with the people you care for the most )

[Angela]

Originally Posted by rose A

Well whats not working? In your reality there are no cheaters, there are no breaking of any promises. What would you and your husband have to discuss?

It looks like you missed a couple of things:

1) what you're referring to was an example I was proferring of an alternate perspective ("Another story, or set of beliefs you might cultivate is..."), not necessarily what's so in my personal relationship;

2) There are no cheaters in my reality, except in Scrabble, but I never said anything about "no breaking of promises." That happens -- and it's a fairly straight linguistic description, rather than a story.

When two people in a relationship are not making each other wrong with stories about *cheating* and so forth, and they are interested in each other's highest well-being, and recognize that each person is doing the best they can with the resources they have available, they never run out of wonderful topics to discuss! A couple like that won't turn out like those couples you see in restaurants, eating in silence, because each moment in the relationship is fresh and new.

Oh now its a deal breaker.......

Again, it looks like you may have missed the fact that I was offering an alternate perspective. It could be a deal breaker, sure -- for many people a broken promise is a deal breaker, especially promises around sex. Sex gets loaded up with all kinds of debts and expectations and opportunities for pain that just aren't there in other aspects of marriage. For instance, a woman who would leave her marriage because her husband was dishonest about sleeping with another woman might not consider it a deal breaker if he broke his promise to love her till death do them part. She might be able to live with one, but not the other (either way). See what I mean?