To be Humble

[ArthurHung]

This is a difficult topic to discuss properly, somewhat, for me at least. Humbleness is not talked about by the humble, and those who understand it simply are.

The flipside of humbleness is impressing others. Those who are truly impressive to others, don't have any issues with it. They don't need validation of any form of it. So, they can freely express their impressiveness only when necessary or for egoless joy, but never for the sake of pride.

Those who are humble are impressive, and vice versa.

FOCUS: How do you think one improves their own humblesness/impressiveness?

To me, one layer of humbleness is as simple as simply understanding that I am ignorant. A conscious form of ignorance.

[Unrul3r]

I agree. Feeling humble is to understand that we know nothing, freeing ourselves from prejudices. Sticking to facts with a ignorant mindset when we communicate or act.

Having these words & phrases present in my head makes me feel humble.

[mrsmith]

Originally Posted by ArthurHung

This is a difficult topic to discuss properly, somewhat, for me at least. Humbleness is not talked about by the humble, and those who understand it simply are.

The flipside of humbleness is impressing others. Those who are truly impressive to others, don't have any issues with it. They don't need validation of any form of it. So, they can freely express their impressiveness only when necessary or for egoless joy, but never for the sake of pride.

Those who are humble are impressive, and vice versa.

FOCUS: How do you think one improves their own humblesness/impressiveness?

To me, one layer of humbleness is as simple as simply understanding that I am ignorant. A conscious form of ignorance.

In order to truly increase your humbleness you have to place yourself in situations in which you need to be humble.

To be more impressive you need to expand your skill set/value to the rest of us.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by ArthurHung

This is a difficult topic to discuss properly, somewhat, for me at least. Humbleness is not talked about by the humble, and those who understand it simply are.

The flipside of humbleness is impressing others. Those who are truly impressive to others, don't have any issues with it. They don't need validation of any form of it. So, they can freely express their impressiveness only when necessary or for egoless joy, but never for the sake of pride.

Those who are humble are impressive, and vice versa.

FOCUS: How do you think one improves their own humblesness/impressiveness?

To me, one layer of humbleness is as simple as simply understanding that I am ignorant. A conscious form of ignorance.

I think Humility is knowing your own awesomeness without the need to impress.

[James81]

I believe Socrates said at best when he said that the wisest of all men realize that they are ignorant.

That's humbleness in a nutshell. That no matter how great you become, you realize that you are no better or no worse than anybody else and that your place in this universe is rather small.

You don't have to be insecure and self-loathing to be humble. You don't have to walk around with your head down to be humble. You don't have to use self-defeating talk to be humble.

You just need to realize that no matter how great you are, you're no better than anybody else.

[Eric Roosevelt]

Originally Posted by James81

I believe Socrates said at best when he said that the wisest of all men realize that they are ignorant.

Yes, but unfortunately we don't become wise just because we realize how little we know. If only it were that simple...

You just need to realize that no matter how great you are, you're no better than anybody else.

Really? I think I know what you might be getting at, but I'm still going to write a few lines about this.

So no matter how good I become, I can never be better than someone else? There's only a few ways in which this can make sense. One is that everyone is always so far ahead of me that I'll never catch up. Another possibility is that there is no measure of "greatness" and no concept of "better and worse" to be used in the first place, which sort of brings up the question of why you phrased it that way.

I apologize for putting your words through a strainer (), but I've heard similar things being said before and wanted to respond to it.

[Orecle]

Originally Posted by James81

I believe Socrates said at best when he said that the wisest of all men realize that they are ignorant.

That's humbleness in a nutshell. That no matter how great you become, you realize that you are no better or no worse than anybody else and that your place in this universe is rather small.

You don't have to be insecure and self-loathing to be humble. You don't have to walk around with your head down to be humble. You don't have to use self-defeating talk to be humble.

You just need to realize that no matter how great you are, you're no better than anybody else.

as an addition to your excellent post, David D talks about a neurotic tendency called blind self-indulgent humility. This describes people who go around secretly looking for validation, about their good works, and their spirituality, when in actuality alot of them secretly think they are better than others. This is the type of person that thinks its a virtue to endure being treated like crap, and producing crappy results, as some form of higher consciousness. Steve describes this type in self-help junkie. all knowledge, no results. But instead of working on getting results, they brag they are too humble to focus on material things (ironically alot have no problem with living off welfare or other peoples charity)

[ArthurHung]

In order to truly increase your humbleness you have to place yourself in situations in which you need to be humble

And in what situation does the need for humbleness not exist?

Because it seems like most of them to me

[James81]

Originally Posted by Eric Roosevelt

Yes, but unfortunately we don't become wise just because we realize how little we know. If only it were that simple...

It is that simple. When you realize how little you know, you realize that you have a lot more to learn, which in feeds the desire to learn more, to become wiser, etc.

If you think yourself to be wise, then you are no longer open to the idea of learning new things because you think you already know everything. I call it the "teenager" syndrome. We spend so much time as young people thinking we've figured life out and know everything, and as a result we end up shutting out the advise and wisdom of those who are older than us, who've already experienced the thing we are trying to experience, and as a result we end up repeating their mistakes.

Where, if we realize that we DON'T know everything, then we recognize that there is something we can learn from every person and every situation (no matter how small or insignificant it may seem to us), and it's those small, finer points (that we would ignore if we already thought we knew them) that are most important to remember.

So, yes, it IS that simple. It's a mindset, basically. If you think yourself to be wise, then you are no longer as receptive to learning new things. If you realize that you are ignorant, you are more receptive to learning new things.

Originally Posted by Eric Roosevelt

So no matter how good I become, I can never be better than someone else?

Exactly. That's because your self-worth isn't tied to how good you are or the things that you accomplish. Your self-worth is tied to your value as a human being, which is independent from what you've acheived.

Originally Posted by Eric Roosevelt

There's only a few ways in which this can make sense. One is that everyone is always so far ahead of me that I'll never catch up.

That's why I said "no better or NO WORSE" than anybody else. You focused in on the "no better" part and completely ignored and/or glossed over the "no worse" part, which is why it didn't make sense to you.

Originally Posted by Eric Roosevelt

Another possibility is that there is no measure of "greatness" and no concept of "better and worse" to be used in the first place, which sort of brings up the question of why you phrased it that way.

There is a concept of greatness, but it's not tied to self-worth. It's tied to acheivment, which is a completely and totally different area altogether. Humility, however, is a measure of self-worth, not acheivment.

[brendannz]

Do you mean David DeAngelo by David D?

Yeah, I think you want to find the right balance with being too humble, or being too arrogant. Somewhere in between the two.

[Eric Roosevelt]

Originally Posted by James81

It is that simple. When you realize how little you know, you realize that you have a lot more to learn, which in feeds the desire to learn more, to become wiser, etc.

[...]

So, yes, it IS that simple. It's a mindset, basically. If you think yourself to be wise, then you are no longer as receptive to learning new things. If you realize that you are ignorant, you are more receptive to learning new things.

The other component to wisdom, apart from realizing that there's a lot you don't know, is realizing what you do know, and using your knowledge effectively. At the end of the day the important thing is to make intelligent long-term choices.

I know plenty of people who realize how little they know, but who I still wouldn't consider wise because they don't make good decisions. If wisdom is a mindset that doesn't produce positive results, then I don't see much use for it.

That's why I said "no better or NO WORSE" than anybody else. You focused in on the "no better" part and completely ignored and/or glossed over the "no worse" part, which is why it didn't make sense to you.

That's true, I missed that part for some reason.

There is a concept of greatness, but it's not tied to self-worth. It's tied to acheivment, which is a completely and totally different area altogether. Humility, however, is a measure of self-worth, not acheivment.

OK, so you're making a distinction between achievement and self-worth.

I'm not sure I entirely agree though. In my mind self-worth isn't necessarily removed from achievement. There may be much more to it than that, but they're not completely separate.

Worth is simply a way of saying "value", and a value is always measurable (or else we wouldn't call it a value, right?). You say self-worth is measured by humility. I say it can probably also be measured by how good you play golf. My value may go down in that particular area, but I can try to make up for it by being better at other things.

I don't think it's easy to point out one person and conclusively say that he or she is better than another person though. I think we'd have to use more specific categories. Of course that goes against how a lot of people understand the term "self-worth", but this is at least how I think about it. Perhaps I'd be better off just calling it "worth". Self-worth is often more about how good you feel about yourself.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Eric Roosevelt

The other component to wisdom, apart from realizing that there's a lot you don't know, is realizing what you do know, and using your knowledge effectively. At the end of the day the important thing is to make intelligent long-term choices.

I know plenty of people who realize how little they know, but who I still wouldn't consider wise because they don't make good decisions. If wisdom is a mindset that doesn't produce positive results, then I don't see much use for it.

I'm not sure that wisdom is dependent upon actions. There are a lot of wise people out there who just simply don't follow their own wisdom or who are overrun by emotions and allow their feelings to cloud their better judgement.

The most interesting thing I've discovered in my own personal development (and the pursuit of such) is that almost ALWAYS people already KNOW what they need to do, they just don't do it. I've discovered that the best way to help people is to help them realize what they already know, and enpower them to take action. Most people seeking advice aren't really looking for advice, they are either looking for validation of their own viewpoint or inspiration to act.

So in that vein, most people are already "wise." It's just that they have trouble in the application of their own wisdom. So in a sense, the "recognition of your ignorance" is really just a motivator to act in a way.

Originally Posted by Eric Roosevelt

OK, so you're making a distinction between achievement and self-worth.

I'm not sure I entirely agree though. In my mind self-worth isn't necessarily removed from achievement. There may be much more to it than that, but they're not completely separate.

Worth is simply a way of saying "value", and a value is always measurable (or else we wouldn't call it a value, right?). You say self-worth is measured by humility. I say it can probably also be measured by how good you play golf. My value may go down in that particular area, but I can try to make up for it by being better at other things.

I don't think it's easy to point out one person and conclusively say that he or she is better than another person though. I think we'd have to use more specific categories. Of course that goes against how a lot of people understand the term "self-worth", but this is at least how I think about it. Perhaps I'd be better off just calling it "worth". Self-worth is often more about how good you feel about yourself.

1. Value isn't always measurable. Sometimes it's inherent. For example, how does one measure the value received from one of Steve's blog posts that encourages a person to change? You can't really measure that, but the value received from the blog post is most definately there.

2. Self-worth isn't based on feelings. Self-worth is your own sense of value. It's the value you offer simply by being here. Sometimes that value is apparent (such as Martin Luther King Jr., Thomas Edison, etc.) because the person who acheives their full potential, projects their own value THROUGH that potential. Mr. Edison, for example, is no less or more valuable as a person than Adolph Hitler. But, as you can see, Edison did far more through his acheivments than Hitler did. But even Hitler's value was projected through his "acheivments" (if you can call them that). His value was to offer the litmus by which we measure "evil" within our world today. Even though his effects had massive negative repurcussions in our society (Holocaust), his value was projected in teaching us so much about the nature of evil. In essence, we learned from his bad example.

Joe Schmoe janitor, though, has the same VALUE as King Jr. and Hitler, but his value is projected in other, less noticeable ways.

Thus, Joe Schmoe, King Jr., and Hitler all have equal value as people, but their acheivments and actions through our society are measured in extremely different ways. Take any of the three OUT of our society before they project their value, however, and the world will not be the same without them.

Hence, humility is just a form of recognizing what your value is, and not over or under projecting that value onto others.

[Orecle]

Originally Posted by brendannz

Do you mean David DeAngelo by David D?

Yeah, I think you want to find the right balance with being too humble, or being too arrogant. Somewhere in between the two.

Yep, from his mastery dvd.

[Orecle]

james 81 - I'm not sure that wisdom is dependent upon actions. There are a lot of wise people out there who just simply don't follow their own wisdom or who are overrun by emotions and allow their feelings to cloud their better judgement.

Wisdom is very much dependent on actions. Intelligence is not. Intelligence and wisdom are correlated, but not the same. there are many intelligent people who make unwise decisions (espiecally in business and personal relationships)

James 81 - 1. Value isn't always measurable. Sometimes it's inherent. For example, how does one measure the value received from one of Steve's blog posts that encourages a person to change? You can't really measure that, but the value received from the blog post is most definately there.


You need to read self help junkie. If steves blog is truly of value, you should see tangible results in your life. Unless its like recieving a million dollar trust fund which u never touch, but feel warm and fuzzy that it is there, even if you are near poverty

james 81- 2. Self-worth isn't based on feelings. Self-worth is your own sense of value. It's the value you offer simply by being here.


Self-worth is not a feeling, then is there no difference in feeling low-self worth and high self worth

James 81 - Joe Schmoe janitor, though, has the same VALUE as King Jr. and Hitler, but his value is projected in other, less noticeable ways.

When you speak of value, who or what is a person more valuable to? A value to whom? Are you saying the president is not more valuable to people and the world, than Joe schmoe? Put another way, the mistakes of some people are of value than Joe schmoe evidenced by this banking crisis

[James81]

Originally Posted by Orecle

Wisdom is very much dependent on actions. Intelligence is not. Intelligence and wisdom are correlated, but not the same. there are many intelligent people who make unwise decisions (espiecally in business and personal relationships)

Wisdom is knowledge gained through experience. But a person can be wise and still make foolish decisions. That's what I am saying. Being "wise" does not necessarily mean you apply that wisdom.

Originally Posted by Orecle

You need to read self help junkie. If steves blog is truly of value, you should see tangible results in your life. Unless its like recieving a million dollar trust fund which u never touch, but feel warm and fuzzy that it is there, even if you are near poverty

You do not need to see tangible results in your life to receive value. Not every blog post, for example, needs to inspire you to action. Some blog posts offer value just by simply uplifting someone who is in a bad mood. That kind of value is not measureable, but it still exists.

Originally Posted by Orecle

Self-worth is not a feeling, then is there no difference in feeling low-self worth and high self worth

Sure there is. A person feeling low-self worth does not consciously recognize their own value. A person with high self worth DOES consciously recognize their own value. You do not need to "feel" anything to recognize your value.

Originally Posted by Orecle

When you speak of value, who or what is a person more valuable to? A value to whom? Are you saying the president is not more valuable to people and the world, than Joe schmoe? Put another way, the mistakes of some people are of value than Joe schmoe evidenced by this banking crisis

No, the mistakes of some people have a greater consequence on us than the mistakes of others, but the value of each individual is the same, regardless of achievement.

To illustrate this, let's look at time travel. A person who travels back to the past will have an affect on the past simply by being there. Whether president Obama travels to 1800 or Joe Schmoe travels to 1800, their "effect" could feasibly by the exact same effect, and that is because their value is the same.

The difference would be that the effects of them MISSING from the present time would bear more consequence, but their effects on the PAST would/could be the same.

[Orecle]

Originally Posted by James81

Wisdom is knowledge gained through experience. But a person can be wise and still make foolish decisions. That's what I am saying. Being "wise" does not necessarily mean you apply that wisdom.

When you say experience, I take it you are speaking of actionable experience. How do you know the person is wise. Since it is not through their action (since you say that wise people can do unwise things) Then it must be through their words and a person who says A and does B is known as a hypocrite or just plain incompetent. How does a person prove their wisdom without any actions. What is the principal of integrity about?

You do not need to see tangible results in your life to receive value. Not every blog post, for example, needs to inspire you to action. Some blog posts offer value just by simply uplifting someone who is in a bad mood. That kind of value is not measureable, but it still exists.

The lifting of mood is tangible. It is something you can mentally and emotionally feel thus making it very valuable. Taking deep breaths that relax you are valuable because they do something very real. Its called an intangible value because it cant be measured by your physical senses

Sure there is. A person feeling low-self worth does not consciously recognize their own value. A person with high self worth DOES consciously recognize their own value. You do not need to "feel" anything to recognize your value.

So I can have low self worth and FEEL fantastic, or high self-worth and feel like crap? Is not feelings a barometer of my internal state, just because people dont understand the meaning of their feelings and therefore dont take the message, doesnt mean the signs are not there. How is a person to know they have low self worth if they dont feel it first? what then inspires someone to seek help, including the so-called successful who have feelings (or whatever you may call it) of low self worth

No, the mistakes of some people have a greater consequence on us than the mistakes of others, but the value of each individual is the same, regardless of achievement.

A value to whom, are you talking a value to himself or society at large.