Unwanted children

[elias_naur]

I recently mailed Johnny Soporno about a problem I have with my children. I have his permission to post his response on the forums, so here goes. I'm not completely comfortable in admitting this problem publicly, but it feels a bit too selfish to keep it for myself, in case other people has similar problems.

Dear Johnny,

You came into existence for me a year ago by a link on the Steve Pavlina forums to your free seductive reasoning videos, and I've been firmly hooked since then ) I trust Steve quite a lot even though I've never met him, and his going polyamorous, meeting you in person and especially his very positive recommendations of you means a lot to me. You've heard it before, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Thanks for the enthusiasm, and for the feedback as well - I'm delighted that Violet and I have been able to help Steve and Erin with their appreciation of one-another, and their acceptance of themselves; from reading your email, I believe that YOUR situation is stymied by your lack of confidence in YOUR OWN acceptance of yourself!

If you don't mind, I'd like your input regarding having and bringing up kids. I know you chose a proactive solution to that, but it's a bit late for that in my case ) I ended my (traditional?) relationship that had lasted 7 years (4 years married) also about a year ago, for reasons I paraphrase as "She is very much into family and kids, and I not so much". At the same time, I was struggling with guilt for being twice unfaithful to my former wife, and still do to an extent. All of it because of my lack of resolve and long term thinking and predicting consequences.

Stop beating yourself up, Elias!

If I may be so bold, your sense of guilt here is caused by your failure to recognize and appreciate WHO AND WHAT YOU ARE, and what drives you, fundamentally. You are clearly a man who is here to "spread the seed", rather than one who is born to protect and nurture his partner and her [and presumably his] offspring.

Here's a little something to help you understand where I'm coming from:

The Functional Design and Phylogeny of Women's Dual Sexuality: Estrus and Extended Sexuality

by: Randy Thornhill, Professor of Cultural Anthropology & Evolutionary Psychology, University of New Mexico

Recent research questions the conventional wisdom about the evolution of women's sexuality. Women have two functionally distinct sexualities. At the fertile phase of the cycle, women prefer male traits that may mark superior genetic quality. At infertile cycle phases, women prefer men willing to invest resources in a mate. Women's peri–ovulatory sexuality is homologous with estrus in other vertebrates and estrus likely arose first in the species ancestral to vertebrates. Thus, contrary to conventional wisdom, women have not lost estrus, and human estrus likely functions to get a sire of superior genetic quality, which is the evolved function of estrus throughout the vertebrates. Women's sexuality outside estrus is extended sexuality. It appears to function, as in other taxa with this type of sexuality, to get material benefits from males. Also contrary to conventional wisdom, men perceive and respond to women's estrus, including by increased mate guarding. Men's response is limited compared to other vertebrate males, implying co-evolutionary history of selection on females to conceal estrus from men and selection on men to detect it. Research indicates that women's concealed estrus is an adaptation to conditionally copulate with men other than the pair–bond partner. Women's sexual ornaments–the estrogen–facilitated features of face and body–appear to be honest signals of individual quality pertaining to future reproductive value.

In other words, women have evolved to pair-bond with men who provide them with both confidence and wherewithal that ensures their children will be well cared-for; yet to BREED (surreptitiously) with more ambitious, sexually-exciting itinerant partners, without bringing this up to their long-term mates. "Extra Pair Coupling" resulting in "Non-Paternity Parenthood" is rampant throughout the animal kingdom, even amongst nominally pair-bonding species.

Men have equally evolved either to have 'alpha ambitions' (ie, the motivation never to settle down, and to spend their energies on impregnating an abundance of willing partners) or to have non-alpha temperaments; to be comfortable in a protracted, long-term relationship with a single partner, and to contribute to the raising of her offspring (presuming them to be his own).

I vowed never to be unfaithful again and always to be honest regardless of convenience. Of course, the best way to avoid the problem is to avoid exclusivity altogether (DUH!) I'm not far in the area of polyamory/non-exclusivity yet, but I feel confident that I'll eventually handle it well. My question is about kids. Kids are, contrary to adults, not capable of taking care of themselves so they present unique challenges not present in adult-adult relationships.

Heh - few 'adults' are mature enough to take care of themselves, frankly - although it certainly sounds to me as though your ex and yourself ARE fairly enlightened and objective in your rationality.

See, I've got two kids, aged 6 and 2, both of them not-that-planned-for (first one while on the pill, second one using nuva-ring), both of them with my ex-wife and twice I wanted abortion and she wanted to keep them. You could say it is odd that two accidents happened, that she did it on purpose or even that they might not be my kids, but I have on reason to suspect any of that. My ex-wife is very reasonable, even more logical than me in some cases ) and the logistics and economic aspects are taken good care of.

I expect that most-likely you could have a frank and sincere conversation with her about your needs and motivations, reminding her that you had explicitly opted not to be a father (and had been blind-sided both times, having relied on A) hormonal medications and B) her appreciation of your desire not to assume the responsibilities of a father at this time.

While I am sure you love and adore your kids, I completely sympathize with your not wanting the burden of caring for kids that young at this time in your life. You need to communicate to her than YOUR KIDS WILL SENSE that they are overwhelmingly NOT WANTED by you, and it will cause them psychological and socialization harms which neither you nor your ex would want for them.

Frankly, I expect you're probably pretty ADHD yourself (based upon your obvious intelligence and your career path) and this isn't conducive to raising youngsters: KIDS NEED ATTENTION, regardless of whether they are actually interesting to you at each moment or not - and failing to give it to them will end up causing inestimable damage to their self-esteem and their emotional welbeing. (This doesn't, of itself, make you a douchebag! But failing to find a positive solution does! )

Personally, I recommend that you offer to cover or share the costs of a live-in nanny to tend to them (nominally at her home) and to see them on a less onerous schedule, which would give you time to crave their company and yearn for the time you'd spend with them, thereby ensuring that they feel treasured and appreciated. If your ex wants to tend to them on her own when she would otherwise have had responsibility for them, she should be assumed to have invested her half of the nanny's costs in so doing... but as an MD, I would imagine she'll ultimately leave the kids with the nanny a lot more than she would spend time with them directly.

I hope this is helpful to you!

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

My problem is time. I now have two kids by myself for 1 week every
other week, and it's draining me. She, being a familiy-kind-of-woman,
loves to have the kids and craves more time with them, but being a
medical doctor doesn't allow her to take more than the 7 days she
already got. I'm a freelance programmer and my schedule is very
flexible, but even though I love my kids I don't see much satisfaction
in the day-to-day child-care. As you've said, time is the most
valuable asset, and I basically don't enjoy my time alone with kids
. I enjoy my weeks without kids quite a lot and I rarely miss my
kids like my ex-wife does when she doesn't have them.

What would you recommend? I would very much like to hear about anybody
you know in a similar situation and how they handle it. I see:

a) Refuse to have them all 7 days. Hardly fair when she's a doctor
with little extra time. She's got a new (familiy-compatible ) )
boyfriend, but he's _also_ a doctor with even less time!
or
b) Suck it up. That's basically what I do now and will continue to do
if no other viable solution comes up, and I've become competent enough
in the fatherhood business to know that my children are not being
harmed that much by having a douchebag father ;o)

Being kids, you can't just say "I don't enjoy time with you so I don't
think we should see each other" like you always can for adults. And
what about the old cliche with the dying man on his death bed going "I
wish I had spent more time with my kids"?

[James81]

[EDIT: REMOVING THIS PORTION AS IT DIDN'T APPLY SPECIFICALLY. DIDN'T HAVE THE FULL EMAIL AT THE TIME AND WAS TRYING TO PIECE TOGETHER WHAT WAS GOING ON]

That being said, I'll say this. I am a single father of two children (I'm divorced), who I get to see at various times during the week. I know what you are going through, and I know exactly how hard it is to be there for them "part time." People grossly underestimate the amount of sacrifice and the emotional toll on the non-custodial parent in our society. It takes a strong man to remain in his kids' lives after a divorce. A lot stronger than people think, and, while I can never condone a man who abandons his kids, I do understand why they do it because I've been there and I've faced that same struggle.....the struggle of "I can't take this anymore, I have to get out of here." The struggle of "do I really love my kids or am I just going through the motions".....the struggle of "I can't take this emotional yo-yoing of seeing them and then not seeing them anymore," the whole breaking down their defenses when they first come only to ship them off and go through the whole process every single time I get them.

So yes, I get that the decision to remain in your kids lives is a tough one, especially when you didn't want them to begin with.

But let me tell you, from my own experience, that the more I do it...the more I face those struggles and rise above them...the more I take up the responsibility....well, the more I love them and the more I grow as a person. I feel like my experience as a single dad has helped me grow in leaps and bounds, and through all my ups and downs and struggles, I've grown to love them deeper, appreciate them more, and grow a sense of inner strength that I could never have reached had I ran away like I originally wanted to do.

So, it's time to grow up, face your issues, embrace a system that works for you, and etch out a path that includes you in their lives. No, you don't have to apologize for wanting your space. No, you don't have to get them everyday. But you should find a way to get them that works out best for both you and them. They didn't ask to come into your life. They are innocent here and they don't deserve to be abandoned and left to struggle on their own just because you have some issues about it.

I know that's blunt and harsh, but I believe it so strongly because I have lived it. And I assert it so strongly because I know, from experience, that by facing it and manning up to your responsibility you will grow much more as a person than if you run away and leave them to fend for themselves. I don't think this. I KNOW this.

So, take my advice for what it's worth. I just know that 2.5 years later, I am so glad beyond glad that I didn't run away back in the beginning when I felt the road was too tough. I am glad that I toughed it out, because of the affects it's had on my inner strength.

My $0.02.

[James81]

^BTW, that response was more based on what Johnny said than you said. It was really hard to figure out just what you were asking in your email because it looks like a lot of it was cut out or left off.

If I'm way off base here, then I apologize because I don't really know the original question you were asking. I was just responding more to Johnny's responses, and trying to piece it together from that.

[elias_naur]

Originally Posted by James81

^BTW, that response was more based on what Johnny said than you said. It was really hard to figure out just what you were asking in your email because it looks like a lot of it was cut out or left off.

If I'm way off base here, then I apologize because I don't really know the original question you were asking. I was just responding more to Johnny's responses, and trying to piece it together from that.

Sorry about that, I've added the rest of my question to the original post. You were spot on in guessing the meaning though.

- elias

[elias_naur]

Originally Posted by James81

Couple points I'd like to make here:

1. First of all, you cheated on your ex twice. Granted, that probably means, as Johnny said, that you are more apt to be the type who is here to "spread his seed," but just because you are like that does not make it "ok" for you to tell your ex that you would be faithful to her and then lie to her. I'm not judging you, but I felt like Johnny was encouraging your behavior without recognizing exactly what you did that was so bad...it wasn't the sex that was bad, it was the lying aspect (as it is with any cheating situation). In the future, recognize this. Don't make a promise that you either don't intend to or can't keep.

Completely agreed, and I wasn't trying to get an "ok" (nor did I read that from Johnny's reply). What I did was definitely _not_ ok. It could probably have been left out if I had intended this for forum consumption originally.

[James81]

Originally Posted by elias_naur

Sorry about that, I've added the rest of my question to the original post. You were spot on in guessing the meaning though.

- elias

Ah ok. That's what I was figuring.

My problem is time. I now have two kids by myself for 1 week every
other week, and it's draining me. She, being a familiy-kind-of-woman,
loves to have the kids and craves more time with them, but being a
medical doctor doesn't allow her to take more than the 7 days she
already got. I'm a freelance programmer and my schedule is very
flexible, but even though I love my kids I don't see much satisfaction
in the day-to-day child-care. As you've said, time is the most
valuable asset, and I basically don't enjoy my time alone with kids
. I enjoy my weeks without kids quite a lot and I rarely miss my
kids like my ex-wife does when she doesn't have them.

What would you recommend? I would very much like to hear about anybody
you know in a similar situation and how they handle it. I see:

a) Refuse to have them all 7 days. Hardly fair when she's a doctor
with little extra time. She's got a new (familiy-compatible ) )
boyfriend, but he's _also_ a doctor with even less time!
or
b) Suck it up. That's basically what I do now and will continue to do
if no other viable solution comes up, and I've become competent enough
in the fatherhood business to know that my children are not being
harmed that much by having a douchebag father ;o)

Being kids, you can't just say "I don't enjoy time with you so I don't
think we should see each other" like you always can for adults. And
what about the old cliche with the dying man on his death bed going "I
wish I had spent more time with my kids"?

Knowing this part of it, I'll add an addendum to my posts above...

A part of my post that I grazed on was that you should not apologize for the time that you spend that works for you. What I mean is, that it's an important that you be a solid, consistent part of their lives. How much time you spend with them, however, will vary from person to person as to what they can handle.

If you can't handle 7 straight days in a row with them, then tell your ex that and set up a custody situation that works better for you. Standard issue court custody usually runs every other weekend (Friday-Sunday) and every wednesday. My own personal custody agreeement is every other weekend Friday-Sunday, every thursday and every sunday. That works really well for me.

Like Johnny said, it gives me time to miss them and yearn for them when they aren't here, and most weeks I end up trying to get them an extra night or two or doing something like take them to dinner.

Most people will judge you if you say things like you don't want to spend every waking moment with your kids. But for the most part, that is a ridiculous judgement and is based mainly on people projecting their own bitterness rather than sound parenting.

It's MOST important that the time you spend with them is QUALITY time, not quantity time. You are a person with your own needs, and it's not unfair for you to demand some time to yourself, so don't apologize for wanting to do that. You do what's best for you and your situation, but make sure that it's CONSISTENT. Don't constantly change it on them and if you say you are going to get them on a certain day, do it.

Consisentancy is a huge issue with children, and it's one of their core needs. They need a parent who will be consistent and who will spend quality time with them. They don't need you everyday more than they need ALL of you in the day that you are with them. (if that makes sense)

So spend some time working out a schedule that works for you, that allows you to be a consistent force in their lives without draining you to where you can't offer all of yourself to them. That's what is most important.

If your ex doesn't like the schedule you present, work it out with her, and offer her solutions that ease the extra load from her (like hiring a nanny as Johnny suggested or paying for their daycare costs). Just because she is a doctor doesn't mean anything. Her onus of responsibility is to her kids first just as much as it is for you.

This is what has really worked for me, and I'm discovering lately that now that I've worked it out that I am wanting to spend more and more time with them. I assert that as you make the connection with them and grow emotionally with them, that that same desire will come to you too. and you'll have a good base to build on, and can slowly ease yourself back into more time with them as you want.

I'll also say this...on the days you don't get them, if you call them and talk to them on the phone that will do worlds for them as well. And also be willing to bend your schedule once in a while for them (not all the time, but once in a while), and whenever they ask if they can come with you, try your best to accomodate that. It's MOST important that you be with them when they WANT to be with you.

[elias_naur]

Originally Posted by James81

--Whether you wanted them or not, whether you suspect foul play on her part or not, they are HERE. You can't change that fact (no matter how much you want to). Not only are they here, but they are YOURS. No amount of reasoning or complaining will change that fact.

I specifically do _not_ suspect foul play. The reason I mention foul play at all is because I've been asked that question by friends and also because I know Johnny has some quite high stats on the percentage of children where the custodial father is not the biological father.

--Knowing that fact, this leaves you with a choice: You can choose to be a part of their life or you can choose to not be a part of their life.

I see it as less black-and-white: I would probably be much more happy with fewer days, say 3 days every other week.

[James81]

Originally Posted by elias_naur

I specifically do _not_ suspect foul play. The reason I mention foul play at all is because I've been asked that question by friends and also because I know Johnny has some quite high stats on the percentage of children where the custodial father is not the biological father.



I see it as less black-and-white: I would probably be much more happy with fewer days, say 3 days every other week.

Yeah, I editted that stuff out of my post as it doesn't really apply. I was thinking you were more wanting to just not get them at all rather than cut your custody down a bit. See my my recent post above for more details.

[elias_naur]

Originally Posted by James81

But let me tell you, from my own experience, that the more I do it...the more I face those struggles and rise above them...the more I take up the responsibility....well, the more I love them and the more I grow as a person. I feel like my experience as a single dad has helped me grow in leaps and bounds, and through all my ups and downs and struggles, I've grown to love them deeper, appreciate them more, and grow a sense of inner strength that I could never have reached had I ran away like I originally wanted to do.

This I've heard variations of before, and in fact my ex-wife specifically states that "other single fathers [she knows] usually want to see more of their kids". This must be where I'm "broken" in some way. How long did it take you to come to this conclusion? Personally, I don't see any "point" in child caring for me as a parent, but while my ex-wife likes to do other things too, parenting is basically the _whole_ point for her.

The way I see it, this is not about just about responsibility, but about the underlying motivation for your specific actions. Just as you're vastly more efficient in work you do because you like it and it gives you meaning than work you don't see any greater meaning in.

[James81]

Originally Posted by elias_naur

This I've heard variations of before, and in fact my ex-wife specifically states that "other single fathers [she knows] usually want to see more of their kids". This must be where I'm "broken" in some way. How long did it take you to come to this conclusion? Personally, I don't see any "point" in child caring for me as a parent, but while my ex-wife likes to do other things too, parenting is basically the _whole_ point for her.

It took me about a year and half to get to that point.

It helped me when I stopped looking at it from the perspective of "childcaring" and looked at it from the perspective building a relationship with my children. At the end of the day they are people, just like me. And even though their needs are more simplistic while they are young, there is still a need to build the relationship there.

I also started looking at it as a way to grow in my own personal development (which helped me in leaps and bounds) and started realizing that they have a view on life to which I want to strive for.

It's easy for us to get lost as adults as to what's most important in life, and kids have that perspective naturally.

Originally Posted by elias_naur

The way I see it, this is not about just about responsibility, but about the underlying motivation for your specific actions. Just as you're vastly more efficient in work you do because you like it and it gives you meaning than work you don't see any greater meaning in.

Well, this isn't "work." (no wonder you are having such a go at this) This is human interaction and relationship building. You can't approach relationships the way you approach work. Relationships are fluid and ever changing, like a stream. You don't work to any particular goal in a relationship, but rather you flow with the stream wherever it takes you.

[ns123]

wow, my opinion of him just shot up leaps and bounds.

Would that his website would be more in alignment with the man who wrote this email instead of coming across as a womanizing seducer in smarmy dark places!

But what do I know, maybe that's the audience he is targeting - where he can do the most good?

[ang569]

I don't think your children are necessarily "unwanted." I just think 7 days of consecutive, single parenting is a bit much. I am a Mother and when my husband and I split, we did every 2 days and it worked out to where we had every other weekend for 3 nights. Now that may sound like a lot on the child(ren), but I think it's all in how you perceive/project it.

Plus, we have different roles and maybe your new single life is calling for you to have a little fun and you dont want to be tied down with kids.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with how you feel, but trust me, your children are not unwanted, there Father is just wanting some "me" time.

[elias_naur]

Originally Posted by James81

It helped me when I stopped looking at it from the perspective of "childcaring" and looked at it from the perspective building a relationship with my children. At the end of the day they are people, just like me. And even though their needs are more simplistic while they are young, there is still a need to build the relationship there.

I also started looking at it as a way to grow in my own personal development (which helped me in leaps and bounds) and started realizing that they have a view on life to which I want to strive for.

It's easy for us to get lost as adults as to what's most important in life, and kids have that perspective naturally.

Well, this isn't "work." (no wonder you are having such a go at this) This is human interaction and relationship building. You can't approach relationships the way you approach work. Relationships are fluid and ever changing, like a stream. You don't work to any particular goal in a relationship, but rather you flow with the stream wherever it takes you.

Ok, relationships then. Let's say I posted a "I love my girlfriend very much, but I don't get anything worthwhile from our relationship" you might suggest leaving her. Same thing with a friend that's holding you back ("spend less time with him"). And you base your advice on the assumption that my girlfriend/friend owns her own life and takes care of herself.

Not so with children, abandoning them will leave them without a father _and_ the mother or someone else is forced to take over.

So in the frame of relationships: I don't get much out of the relationship with my children and would ideally prefer less time with them. What can I do about it?

I've since discussed the issue with my ex-wife who is unfortunately not open for either taking more days nor the idea of me or a nanny helping her out more and bringing them to and from day care when she needs it. In fact, she wants to work a bit more short term to clear off some debt. Her intended goal is to have them more, but I'm not sure when that is going to happen.

I don't think your children are necessarily "unwanted."

Heh, I can see now that the thread topic might be a bit too much. Who knows, I probably wanted to elicit a "no no, you're not completely bad, they're not unwanted"

I just think 7 days of consecutive, single parenting is a bit much. I am a Mother and when my husband and I split, we did every 2 days and it worked out to where we had every other weekend for 3 nights. Now that may sound like a lot on the child(ren), but I think it's all in how you perceive/project it.

If I undertand you correctly, you two still have them equally much. In what way does the more frequent swapping help, compared to 7 days straight (but also 7 days without them)?

[ang569]

Originally Posted by elias_naur

If I undertand you correctly, you two still have them equally much. In what way does the more frequent swapping help, compared to 7 days straight (but also 7 days without them)?

I only have one and she is soon to be 19 (June). She moved in with me full time on her 18th birthday.

The frequency of the changing houses showed her how much she was wanted/needed without us "arguing or fighting" over her. We also focused on how well she was required to keep up with her things. She became very responsible in that aspect. When holidays would come about, my ex and I would try to work it out and we would tell her how it must be nice to be so loved and how everyone wants to have her around for the holidays. We just worked it out without the other being mad or stressing her out, even if I got her on December 26th, it was the day after on the calendar but in our house, it was Christmas day.

Basically what I'm saying, is divorce is a terrible thing in itself so I always tried to focus on the positive aspects of it because it is what it is and if we focus on the "oh, poor thing you have to go back and forth all the time, etc. etc.," then it becomes even more negative.

I know that didn't come out as clearly as I wanted but I hope I made some sense.

[crescive]

Because I think this topic is extremely interesting, may I ask why you don't get anything worthwhile from hanging out with your kids? Like you just don't have fun, they don't make you laugh, or spark inspiration or imagination in you, or whatever emotions parents feel when they are around their kids? What is it that you just don't like about hanging out with your kids or children in general? Do you just feel like there is something more interesting that you could be doing instead? Could you just specify?

I'm not passing judgment, I just want to know because although I don't have any kids myself, I love kids, I think there is more that we can learn from children than they can from us. I really enjoy seeing the world from their eyes, a fresh perspective. Also, I'm currently dating someone who is a dad and he's worked out the custody with his ex wife where he sees his 6 year old daughter A LOT. I'd like to know more about your perspective.

[elias_naur]

Originally Posted by crescive

Because I think this topic is extremely interesting, may I ask why you don't get anything worthwhile from hanging out with your kids? Like you just don't have fun, they don't make you laugh, or spark inspiration or imagination in you, or whatever emotions parents feel when they are around their kids? What is it that you just don't like about hanging out with your kids or children in general? Do you just feel like there is something more interesting that you could be doing instead? Could you just specify?

I like hanging out with children, and my children in particular. It's the 7 days with complete responsibility for children that wears me down. I don't look forward to the weeks with children at all, and I find the weeks boring, tedious and wishing the days would pass faster*. For lack of a better expression, I'm feel more like an uncle or grand parent than a parent.

Yes, children probably teaches me more than I teach them, I know because I've learned _a lot_ from having children. I'm afraid that I'm currently not listening much to them though

Originally Posted by crescive

I'm not passing judgment, I just want to know because although I don't have any kids myself, I love kids, I think there is more that we can learn from children than they can from us. I really enjoy seeing the world from their eyes, a fresh perspective. Also, I'm currently dating someone who is a dad and he's worked out the custody with his ex wife where he sees his 6 year old daughter A LOT. I'd like to know more about your perspective.

I'm biased. I'm not a family person, wishing to have and raise a family, and I left my wife who very much _is_ a family person because I didn't know maself well enough at the time.
That said, I see no problem in dating people with kids at all. I'm seeing a woman with three(!) kids, and we have a very different kind of relationship, one that I cherish very much. She knows I'm not there to take over the family-father role so we have virtually no problems regarding children (mine or hers).



* I don't _always_ feel like that, but more often than I think is healthy.