Unwanted children

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by Medea33

You really can't have it both ways. Either his partner used BC and had a baby anyway, or they both used it and both of them had a baby. Don't make me go up-thread to quote that one, because I'm already cranky about this.

You're corroborating my case, Medea. That is precisely what I have been trying to communicate to Indiana and others.

Elias was not irresponsible, nor was he attempting to shirk responsibility AT ALL, PERIOD, EVER. I have been actively rallying to help communicate this since that pernicious misappraisal first got suggested in this thread.

Originally Posted by Medea33

I'm not sure why you're so stuck on absolving the OP of his responsibility for ensuring that fatherhood only happened to others, but raising the signal to noise ratio isn't obscuring his rather stunning lack of forethought. And getting a vasectomy isn't exactly like requesting elective brain surgery. Even in Canada. So, being persistent would have been enough to ensure no children in his future. But, hey, it doesn't look like he tried.

Once more, I am not absolving the OP of anything, nor does he require it.
He has nothing for which to feel guilty.

He relied, like so very many other parents, upon birth control pills to ensure he didn't become a father, and that turned out not to be enough. Once he WAS already a father, he relied on the Nuvaring as birth control, and that wasn't enough again.

He accepted his responsibility in both cases, has been as effective and considerate a father as he could be, and has never done anything to warrant anyone's ire or disrespect PERIOD. He has never turned his back on his kids NOR his ex, and he has never failed to provide for them.

I feel the need to clarify this because somehow people have determined that his not wanting to spend time much time with kids he loves, but didn't genuinely want to have had in the first place, makes him somehow a bad person. He is not. Part of the reason he contacted me was that he was carrying undeserved guilt sensations for acknowledging his lack of enthusiasm for spending time with his offspring.

His recognition that his situation wasn't a positive one, and that it was destroying his libido (not in the sexual sense, in the 'joy of life' sense) justified his looking for alternatives.

Originally Posted by Medea33

I actually sympathize with the OP. Joint custody, if you're not particularly interested in small children or feeling compentent as a parent, is onerous. You have sole responsibility for little alien critters for seven days in a row. Whoof. That's why my ex-husband and I moved rather rapidly from joint custody (it wasn't my idea) to two four day periods per month. That way, his chances of being a good parent were optimized and he didn't get worn out.

Indeed. Elias wasn't ever offered any alternative to a 50/50 time split, and came to me for recommendations on how best to approach a warm-hearted and appropriate negotiation with his ex, with the aim of enhancing the quality-of-life for everyone involved: His kids, his ex, and himself.

Originally Posted by Medea33

However, I think one of the underlying problems here was resentment and I'm curious as to whether you recommended counselling.

Elias and his ex hold no obvious resentment toward one-another, nor is there any friction between he and his ex's new man? The only resentment which I believe needed to be addressed was Elias's resentment of the demands on his time which his shared custody assigned him, and that is exactly the crux of the problem I was trying to help reconcile.

By his offering his wife principle custody, and to augment her income sufficiently to pay for a live-in (or part-time) nanny, he should be both delivering the same quantity of discretionary time to his ex as she had had, and additionally giving her greater access to the kids (as she desired) without engendering any resentment in himself for the children. Then he can coordinate with her for visitation which would better suite everyone involved.



Johnny Soporno
Relationship Counselor

[Medea33]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

In that case, Elias did not have any children. His partner did. Q.E.D.

I did say not to make me go up-thread, right.? Yeah, I get that it was in response to something Indiana said, but there's not QED here if both the OP and his wife contributed DNA.

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

You're corroborating my case, Medea. That is precisely what I have been trying to communicate to Indiana and others.

Elias was not irresponsible, nor was he attempting to shirk responsibility AT ALL, PERIOD, EVER. I have been actively rallying to help communicate this since that pernicious misappraisal first got suggested in this thread.

Once more, I am not absolving the OP of anything, nor does he require it.
He has nothing for which to feel guilty.

Guilt is sorta useless anyway, but I don't see anyone promoting it here, so I'm not sure why you are mentioning it. What some few of us are saying is that, knowing he didn't want children, he behaved irresponsibly in not getting snipped. Your continued harping on how both of them were taking birth control appears to be an attempt at absolution that is unmerited. One unplanned, unwanted child is a mistake. A second, regardless of who was using what birth control, is inexcusably irresponsible. They'd already beaten the 0.03% odds once, after all.

I'm not going to quote the rest of your post because it gave me a headache. You show inexhaustable enthusiasm for absolution but none at all for listening, which isn't my thing tonight, although I admire your persistence generally. In any case, not once has anyone said the OP is a bad person, for instance. Just witlessly irresponsible for not ensuring he never became a father.

The resentment I was referring to was toward his children...

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

I guess LostMyMap also lost his dictionary?

There wasn't any Projection in my correcting Lakshi's misappraisal of the situation, and more urgently, being conscripted is PRECISELY what happened to the OP. (He was involuntarily pressed into service!)

My original quote was:

As anyone should be able to see, his actions are entirely noble and responsible - he isn't trying to evade any responsibility whatsoever - but he does not want to HARM his children by showing them a disgruntled and resentful parent (himself!)

NOW who's projecting?

Uh no, didn't lose the dictionary. I was letting you know up front that I was fully intending to project in this thread. No problem with that. Guess I overestimated your ability to understand that.

You also completely misunderstand the entire situation that you so vehemently try to accuse us of misunderstanding. To think that a father is conscripted into raising his children is so outrageously off track, that I'm surprised that even you would be able to fall for his BS.

Also, your pathetic attempts to keep going back to the woman's birth control demonstrate that you are apparently incapable of forming a realistic viewpoint in this matter, your ego on this thread is sickening. Is there any room in your thinking to consider the possibility that you might have been just the tiniest bit off base with this one? Or will you defend it till you die?

If you can't understand anything else, try really hard to get this: Birth control is irrelevant. Absolutely completely no bearing whatsoever on the situation that was presented at the beginning of the thread. Try real hard on this one. You know why? Because children were born. So all the talk about her birth control is useless. Everything you typed about it was a waste of your time. The children exist. You dip your wick, you take your chances. If you end up with kids, you deal with it. Why birth control failed is a worthless topic. Used to intentionally distract from the real issue. And if you feel conscripted, you fix yourself, get over your victim status and do what is right.

The mere fact that you bought into his self-victimization and defend it really makes me question whether you are in any way qualified to give advice to anyone. I consider myself a rank amateur when it comes to personal development. But I see through his and your BS pretty easily.

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

I'll go further and say that 90% of the women you know, including yourself, have no clue whether the men they date/go to bed with have any children, aside from the ones they give birth to, are introduced to, or are told about directly.

Do you have any credible evidence/research beyond yourself to back this up?

[elias_naur]

It's been a while, and some of you in this thread requested an update as to how this story ended up.
Well, I can't say the story is ended, but things have since happened and, if I may so myself, only for the better for all involved.

First off, I've since made sure that this problem will (with very very high certainty) never happen to a third child. I've had a vasectomy, and it feels great not having to rely on anyone else to avoid having more children. I was getting a bit paranoid about traditional BC methods, and it's a great way to "physically" explain to any potential partner that I don't want any more children, and that yes, I really mean it.
Some commented on my failing to insist on condoms and/or having the vasectomy earlier - they are correct in the sense that I never brought up the subjects of condoms to my wife nor checked my options regarding a vasectomy with a doctor.

Secondly, after the e-mail conversation with Johnny, and several other friends, I took the initiative to improve the situation. For the interested, I've listed some of the changes I made. Several of them might seem trivial to you, but all of them helped me in some way, and today I'm actually very happy with the situation, and to the best of my knowledge, my children are happy with how their father has turned out
The daily interactions has changed from somewhat stressful to much more loving. For example, my daughter sometimes want to hang out with me and stay at my place in addition to the planned 5 days. I feel really great about that, and almost always find a way to accomodate her wishes.

• My ex-wife and I agreed to change our split to 5/9 instead of 7/7. Recently, my ex got an au pair so the practical burden on her has diminished quite a bit. I'm very happy with that arrangement and it pleases me a lot to see my ex happy.
• I began attending (and still attend) counselling sessions, where one of the goals was to improve my relationship to my children. The counsellor has been very helpful in that regard, to the point where I catch myself actually look forward to picking up and having my children stay with me I think they can feel the change too, since they've become a lot easier on me and much less whiny. It's very rewarding to watch the changes happen to our relationship so fast - I guess there's a lot less friction and bitterness involved with a parent/child relationship at that age.
• I've found a way to be jobless and work as a consultant, which is _much_ more suitable for my taste. I hated the job I had for about a year.
• My children have aged (surprise! ) It's no secret that I the most difficulties with my son, at least partly because of his young age (he was 2 at the time, now approaching 4) with his higher demands on my constant attention and practical help.
• ... and a lot of little practical changes that add up. For example: I dislike packing the lunch packs, so instead of making both myself alone in the kitchen, my daughter is making her own while I make the one for my son. More fun that way. Secondly, I've increased my income enough to buy a cheap car so it's much easier to get around town with the children.

[votoshka]

Glad to hear things are working out better for you Elias! It is great that you sought help for your issues with your kids and your relationship with them has improved.

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

Uh no, didn't lose the dictionary. I was letting you know up front that I was fully intending to project in this thread. No problem with that. Guess I overestimated your ability to understand that.

You did indeed. From the tone of your tirade, it sounded accusatory rather than self-referential.

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

You also completely misunderstand the entire situation that you so vehemently try to accuse us of misunderstanding.

One of us must be mistaken!

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

To think that a father is conscripted into raising his children is so outrageously off track, that I'm surprised that even you would be able to fall for his BS.

Ah, it's you! Thanks for setting me straight.

Johnny Soporno
Lifestyle Guru

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by elias_naur

It's been a while, and some of you in this thread requested an update as to how this story ended up.
Well, I can't say the story is ended, but things have since happened and, if I may so myself, only for the better for all involved.

Fantastic, Elias! I'm so pleased for you


Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by elias_naur

It's been a while, and some of you in this thread requested an update as to how this story ended up.
Well, I can't say the story is ended, but things have since happened and, if I may so myself, only for the better for all involved.

First off, I've since made sure that this problem will (with very very high certainty) never happen to a third child. I've had a vasectomy, and it feels great not having to rely on anyone else to avoid having more children. I was getting a bit paranoid about traditional BC methods, and it's a great way to "physically" explain to any potential partner that I don't want any more children, and that yes, I really mean it.
Some commented on my failing to insist on condoms and/or having the vasectomy earlier - they are correct in the sense that I never brought up the subjects of condoms to my wife nor checked my options regarding a vasectomy with a doctor.

Secondly, after the e-mail conversation with Johnny, and several other friends, I took the initiative to improve the situation. For the interested, I've listed some of the changes I made. Several of them might seem trivial to you, but all of them helped me in some way, and today I'm actually very happy with the situation, and to the best of my knowledge, my children are happy with how their father has turned out
The daily interactions has changed from somewhat stressful to much more loving. For example, my daughter sometimes want to hang out with me and stay at my place in addition to the planned 5 days. I feel really great about that, and almost always find a way to accomodate her wishes.

• My ex-wife and I agreed to change our split to 5/9 instead of 7/7. Recently, my ex got an au pair so the practical burden on her has diminished quite a bit. I'm very happy with that arrangement and it pleases me a lot to see my ex happy.
• I began attending (and still attend) counselling sessions, where one of the goals was to improve my relationship to my children. The counsellor has been very helpful in that regard, to the point where I catch myself actually look forward to picking up and having my children stay with me I think they can feel the change too, since they've become a lot easier on me and much less whiny. It's very rewarding to watch the changes happen to our relationship so fast - I guess there's a lot less friction and bitterness involved with a parent/child relationship at that age.
• I've found a way to be jobless and work as a consultant, which is _much_ more suitable for my taste. I hated the job I had for about a year.
• My children have aged (surprise! ) It's no secret that I the most difficulties with my son, at least partly because of his young age (he was 2 at the time, now approaching 4) with his higher demands on my constant attention and practical help.
• ... and a lot of little practical changes that add up. For example: I dislike packing the lunch packs, so instead of making both myself alone in the kitchen, my daughter is making her own while I make the one for my son. More fun that way. Secondly, I've increased my income enough to buy a cheap car so it's much easier to get around town with the children.

Elias, good post. If I can trust the honesty of this post, sounds like you have progressed quite a bit. As you may have seen, some of us got pretty lit up about your situation and soporno's 'advice'. I for one have pretty strong feelings in regards to being a father and caring for children. I hope things continue to be on the upswing for both you and your children.

For what it's worth, this forum has a lot of really good people on it and I've learned quite a bit since I showed up here. If you are interested, you could hang around here and 'talk' and ask questions. If you throw something out there, you definitely will get some analysis and opinions back and that can be rather daunting, but great learning.

LMM

[LostMyMap]

Took a quick look at soporno's web sites. That explains so much.....

[Indiana]

Thanks for the update Elias. I'm so pleased that you sought counselling in order to improve your relationship with and mindset towards your children, rather than simply believing that fatherhood was something you're 'not cut out for' and passing the job to someone else. I am sure you're being a great dad and your kids appreciate it and will thrive because of your efforts.

And I congratulate you on taking personal responsibility for your future reproductive choices.

[Medea33]

Originally Posted by elias_naur

It's been a while, and some of you in this thread requested an update as to how this story ended up.[/LIST]

Congratulations on finding some inventive, workable solutions - and on recognizing the need for counseling, as well. It sounds like everything has improved greatly all around.

[elias_naur]

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

Elias, good post. If I can trust the honesty of this post, sounds like you have progressed quite a bit. As you may have seen, some of us got pretty lit up about your situation and soporno's 'advice'. I for one have pretty strong feelings in regards to being a father and caring for children. I hope things continue to be on the upswing for both you and your children.

I'm flattered that you question the honesty of a post I consider very accurate!

I'm not sure what you mean by the quotes around 'advice', since I consider his advice quite fitting for me. I came to him with a lot of 'should's and he offered me several practical and reasonable solutions in return. The au pair and the 5/9 split ideas both stem from his email.
More importantly, and also the reason why I think the "upswing" will last, is that he comes from the frame of finding a solution that works for _everyone_, very much including myself. I still don't see myself as 'cut out for' fatherhood, but I did find a solution that I'm quite pleased with and that seems to work great for the little ones. If I weren't happy, the changes wouldn't last long, and I'm sure my children would (keep) sensing my unhappyness.

Someone mentioned that I wrote specifically to Johnny to get the answer I wanted - well, of course! Although I've never met Johnny personally, I consider him very qualified to offer me advice that fits me well - in one of his videos he mentioned something along the lines of recognising his shortcomings wrt. raising children and his efficient solution to that. And he seems to ridiculously happy about his life, so why not ask?
And btw, he never absolves me of any responsibility for the wellbeing of my children ("This doesn't, of itself, make you a douchebag! But failing to find a positive solution does!").

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

For what it's worth, this forum has a lot of really good people on it and I've learned quite a bit since I showed up here. If you are interested, you could hang around here and 'talk' and ask questions. If you throw something out there, you definitely will get some analysis and opinions back and that can be rather daunting, but great learning.

I know! ) Although absent for a while, I was a long time lurker at the time I wrote the original post, and I did learn quite a lot at the time. And I have no problem with fiery discussions and harsh criticism - I knew perfectly well the post would be controversial when I posted it.

[Falco]

I would rather have no father than a father who wouldnt want me. Therefore I fail to see the relevance of the whole 'own up to your responsibilities' talk.

If you generate kids as a man I believe you should take responsibility to the best of your ability. That means paying alimony and arranging either a nanny or an au pair to help the mother out. But why be there for the children if you absolutely do not want to be there? You cannot fake 'love' or 'being happy' around kids when you really aren't. Imo that's much more immoral behaviour than simply not being there. I do believe a man should pay up in the form of alimony naturally.

Ofcourse I can understand that there are many people here who would love to be a father and/ or sympathize with single mothers out there but that doesn't really counter my initial statement: "I would rather have no father than a father who clearly doesn't want/love me".

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by Falco

I would rather have no father than a father who wouldn't want me. Therefore I fail to see the relevance of the whole 'own up to your responsibilities' talk.

You understand perfectly.

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy