Women's Role

[Rose of Cairo]

[Seeker5 Edit: This thread is split up from the David DeAngela's Material Thread]

Originally Posted by MasterD

It is really about becoming a man, having a vision in the world, finding the right woman that supports that vision, get through childhood wounds and help her through hers, etc..

Having a vision and all that is great, but why look for a woman who supports your vision? What I mean is, why can't the woman have her own vision too? Why can't you support her vision, for example?

Why is it the woman's role to support the man's vision?

This sounds so damn sexist to me.

[AfteraDream]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

Having a vision and all that is great, but why look for a woman who supports your vision? What I mean is, why can't the woman have her own vision too? Why can't you support her vision, for example?

Why is it the woman's role to support the man's vision?

This sounds so damn sexist to me.

No sexism here mate, you as a man should have a purpose (a vision) that you follow no matter what. If a woman doesn't support and understand it you should leave her. She can have her own vision but women are not born for this (emotionally healthy woman prefers family and kinds over anything). She doesn't want to be an adventure, SHE WANTS TO BE TAKEN on an adventure. And a man's adventure is his vision...

[pterodactyl]

"No sexism here mate, you as a man should have a purpose (a vision) that you follow no matter what. If a woman doesn't support and understand it you should leave her. She can have her own vision but women are not born for this (emotionally healthy woman prefers family and kinds over anything). She doesn't want to be an adventure, SHE WANTS TO BE TAKEN on an adventure. And a man's adventure is his vision..."

I was not going to get involved in this, but I can't help but respond. You are totally wrong about this. EVERYONE should have a purpose and a vision, and ANY spouse or partner should support the others' vision/purpose. I support my husband 100% in his vision, and he supports me equally. How bizarre and oppressive it would be if I were expected to abandon my passions and dreams to put his above my own! I completely disagree that emotionally healthy women prefer family and kids over other endeavors. I am living proof that you are wrong. I am an emotionally healthy woman who has pursued her own talents and gifts all her life, from painting to fiction writing to chemistry and physics, and this journey has ultimately led to a fruitful career in scientific research that I am passionate about and that comes first in my life. My husband whole-heartedly supports my mission and goals. In fact, he was attracted to me BECAUSE of my independence, adventurous spirit and passionate devotion to pursuing my education and vision. He didn't want to be the center of my life-- he, like nearly 100% of the men I know, wanted a woman who actually has an exciting life already, and he wanted to jump in and add to it. Before me, he dated a woman similar to your description of an "emotionally healthy woman" who was simply waiting for a man to come along and have a family, and he was so utterly bored and unchallenged by her that he broke up with her after a few months. He rightly realizes that life is about growth, and that there are myriad adventures to be had. He wanted to love a woman who would BE an adventure for HIM, and take HIM with her on her travels. He has loved every second of the adventure that is our marriage, and so have I! My husband is passionate about his own visions and dreams, such as his athletic goals, spending time with his cherished friends, learning languages, music, philosophy and travel. In fact, we are working so that we can have the sort of life that would allow him to quit his job (which he tolerates but is not passionate about) and pursue these things he enjoys full-time. I would love nothing more than to support him in that.

Be careful about judging others and interpreting what all women want based on what YOU think is appropriate. My existence defies every single one of these expectations. Feel free to define and seek out what kind of woman that YOU want, but don't make the mistake of painting all of us with the same brush.

[Angela]

sexism: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

Johnny, is that what you do? Is that what David DeAngelo does? Declaring that women who don't fall into this (yes, sexist) idea that women don't prefer family and "kind" over all else are emotionally unhealthy?

From what I've read of Johnny and DeAngelo, I think it's pretty unlikely that they'd make a declaration like this -- mostly because it doesn't sound like an effective approach if you want to get laid or have a great relationship with a woman.

As an emotionally healthy woman, I volunteer to come to Las Vegas to be a Subject Female in the PUAY-offs.

[pterodactyl]

Go Angela!!

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by AfteraDream

She can have her own vision but women are not born for this (emotionally healthy woman prefers family and kinds over anything). She doesn't want to be an adventure, SHE WANTS TO BE TAKEN on an adventure. And a man's adventure is his vision...

Oh, really?

Oh my God, I didn't know I was that emotionally unhealthy, good that you're letting me know. Also, how lucky I am that you're here to tell me what I truly want. Looks like I'm not able to know this by myself.

No but seriously, even though I personally am not offended by your post (it makes me grin ) I am going to report it. Sexism is explicitly prohibited by the forum rules.

You see, in my vision, this forum is an empowering place for everybody, encouraging us all to fulfill our true potential - and not a place where women are told what they should want, or that they must be sick for having a life purpose and no wish for kids, just because they happen to be born with two X chromosomes.

[AfteraDream]

Originally Posted by pterodactyl

"No sexism here mate, you as a man should have a purpose (a vision) that you follow no matter what. If a woman doesn't support and understand it you should leave her. She can have her own vision but women are not born for this (emotionally healthy woman prefers family and kinds over anything). She doesn't want to be an adventure, SHE WANTS TO BE TAKEN on an adventure. And a man's adventure is his vision..."

I was not going to get involved in this, but I can't help but respond. You are totally wrong about this. EVERYONE should have a purpose and a vision, and ANY spouse or partner should support the others' vision/purpose. I support my husband 100% in his vision, and he supports me equally. How bizarre and oppressive it would be if I were expected to abandon my passions and dreams to put his above my own! I completely disagree that emotionally healthy women prefer family and kids over other endeavors. I am living proof that you are wrong. I am an emotionally healthy woman who has pursued her own talents and gifts all her life, from painting to fiction writing to chemistry and physics, and this journey has ultimately led to a fruitful career in scientific research that I am passionate about and that comes first in my life. My husband whole-heartedly supports my mission and goals. In fact, he was attracted to me BECAUSE of my independence, adventurous spirit and passionate devotion to pursuing my education and vision. He didn't want to be the center of my life-- he, like nearly 100% of the men I know, wanted a woman who actually has an exciting life already, and he wanted to jump in and add to it. Before me, he dated a woman similar to your description of an "emotionally healthy woman" who was simply waiting for a man to come along and have a family, and he was so utterly bored and unchallenged by her that he broke up with her after a few months. He rightly realizes that life is about growth, and that there are myriad adventures to be had. He wanted to love a woman who would BE an adventure for HIM, and take HIM with her on her travels. He has loved every second of the adventure that is our marriage, and so have I! My husband is passionate about his own visions and dreams, such as his athletic goals, spending time with his cherished friends, learning languages, music, philosophy and travel. In fact, we are working so that we can have the sort of life that would allow him to quit his job (which he tolerates but is not passionate about) and pursue these things he enjoys full-time. I would love nothing more than to support him in that.

Be careful about judging others and interpreting what all women want based on what YOU think is appropriate. My existence defies every single one of these expectations. Feel free to define and seek out what kind of woman that YOU want, but don't make the mistake of painting all of us with the same brush.

Do you have kids? If you had to choose between career and kids, what would you choose?

I never said that women shouldn't have a career, they can and should. But if career starts being first over kids and family... nah.. that's not cool.

Women wanted equality and it's good, but this doesn't mean that we should all be the same... Yes women can be great business woman, but that doesn't mean they should. Women are better at taking care, supporting and nurturing. A lot of women that are independent and have great are career AND ARE LONELY. I have dated a woman like that, she was gorgeous, successful, independent and it was attractive, but still I saw that she just overloads herself with stuff she shouldn't be doing.

[AfteraDream]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

Oh, really?

Oh my God, I didn't know I was that emotionally unhealthy, good that you're letting me know. Also, how lucky I am that you're here to tell me what I truly want. Looks like I'm not able to know this by myself.

No but seriously, even though I personally am not offended by your post (it makes me grin ) I am going to report it. Sexism is explicitly prohibited by the forum rules.

You see, in my vision, this forum is an empowering place for everybody, encouraging us all to fulfill our true potential - and not a place where women are told what they should want, or that they must be sick for having a life purpose and no wish for kids, just because they happen to be born with two X chromosomes.

You never know yourself fully.. that's what I learned when started to read about self-improvement.. there are always things that you don't know. And in women that is true even more. You say you want one thing in men but then respond to different thing (classic example is women say they want a nice guy, but fall for bad boy... They don't want a nice guy, but something between nice guy and a bad boy)...

Nothing in my post is demeaning. Why is it bad that women want family more than men? Report me if you want.

[MasterD]

Rose, your post really made me cry.

[pterodactyl]

AfteraDream, if you're truly joking and having us on, now is a good time to come clean. Really, don't hold back.

I chose not to have children when I was a teenager, mainly because I believed it's irresponsible to add to the number of humans on a planet that cannot sustain and support its existing population. I also do not want the financial/emotional burdens that accompany raising one or more human beings from infancy to age 18 and beyond, nor do I, in light of recent studies that show that the majority of married couples experience a sharp decrease in marital satisfaction after having kids, want to put my relationship at risk of divorce. So, it would appear that I have chosen a career over kids, but I never saw myself as having such limited options. I would still feel this way about it even if I were a Stepford wife with nothing of value to contribute. I am fortunate to have friends and family who have had kids, so I can enjoy and help raise children if I desire.

Why exactly is it 'not cool' for a woman to put career over family? Why would it be 'cool' for a man to do so, but not his wife? You should qualify that it's not cool FOR YOU. You should be honest and say that this is because it threatens your ego and self-esteem. You, personally, could not handle such a situation, but there are many men who can, and do so gladly. As to your comment about career women, perhaps this particular woman whom you dated was lonely not because she was overwhelmed by a career you think she "shouldn't" have pursued, but because she had a sexist, unsupportive partner in you! Forget loneliness-- with men like you in her life, that woman doesn't need enemies.

Who do you think you are to dictate what women "should" be doing? How do you know what truly makes ALL women happy (aside from foot rubs)? Where do you get off making these generalizations that offend women, whom you are (by virtue of your involvement in the "PUA scene") ostensibly trying to attract into your life? Perhaps your limiting attitudes about women are affecting your ability to attract the kind of women you really want, and maybe if you corrected your misperception you wouldn't need Johnny and the Riddler.

What about women's greater ability to give to the world, to use our talents and skills to help, promote and enhance the lives of others across the world? Is this not important to you? Wouldn't you be proud to support a woman in your life who followed her dreams to success and brought you along with her? Inside of every woman I have really known is a greater dream than just "kids and family". Some women have the courage to act on their dreams, and find both support and opposition along the way, while others are "shoulded" into watching them pass by. The unhappiest women I know were those who had talent and failed to act on it, who listened to society and to men like you, and silenced their own voices.

I think your attitude is offensive to women, and offensive to men as well, many of whom may love the dream of nurturing a family and children and may possess a far greater capacity for it than the women you feel "should" be filling that role. Have you considered what other men may truly want, and need?

[AfteraDream]

Originally Posted by pterodactyl

AfteraDream, if you're truly joking and having us on, now is a good time to come clean. Really, don't hold back.

I chose not to have children when I was a teenager, mainly because I believed it's irresponsible to add to the number of humans on a planet that cannot sustain and support its existing population. I also do not want the financial/emotional burdens that accompany raising one or more human beings from infancy to age 18 and beyond, nor do I, in light of recent studies that show that the majority of married couples experience a sharp decrease in marital satisfaction after having kids, want to put my relationship at risk of divorce. So, it would appear that I have chosen a career over kids, but I never saw myself as having such limited options. I would still feel this way about it even if I were a Stepford wife with nothing of value to contribute. I am fortunate to have friends and family who have had kids, so I can enjoy and help raise children if I desire.

Why exactly is it 'not cool' for a woman to put career over family? Why would it be 'cool' for a man to do so, but not his wife? You should qualify that it's not cool FOR YOU. You should be honest and say that this is because it threatens your ego and self-esteem. You, personally, could not handle such a situation, but there are many men who can, and do so gladly. As to your comment about career women, perhaps this particular woman whom you dated was lonely not because she was overwhelmed by a career you think she "shouldn't" have pursued, but because she had a sexist, unsupportive partner in you! Forget loneliness-- with men like you in her life, that woman doesn't need enemies.

Who do you think you are to dictate what women "should" be doing? How do you know what truly makes ALL women happy (aside from foot rubs)? Where do you get off making these generalizations that offend women, whom you are (by virtue of your involvement in the "PUA scene") ostensibly trying to attract into your life? Perhaps your limiting attitudes about women are affecting your ability to attract the kind of women you really want, and maybe if you corrected your misperception you wouldn't need Johnny and the Riddler.

What about women's greater ability to give to the world, to use our talents and skills to help, promote and enhance the lives of others across the world? Is this not important to you? Wouldn't you be proud to support a woman in your life who followed her dreams to success and brought you along with her? Inside of every woman I have really known is a greater dream than just "kids and family". Some women have the courage to act on their dreams, and find both support and opposition along the way, while others are "shoulded" into watching them pass by. The unhappiest women I know were those who had talent and failed to act on it, who listened to society and to men like you, and silenced their own voices.

I think your attitude is offensive to women, and offensive to men as well, many of whom may love the dream of nurturing a family and children and may possess a far greater capacity for it than the women you feel "should" be filling that role. Have you considered what other men may truly want, and need?

Maybe you are just unprepared to have a family?

As for the second paragraph, read Steve's How to be a Man post. Might give you better understanding of it. Why is it bad for a MAN to be the head of family? Why is it bad for MAN to be the PROVIDER? If a man chooses family over his PURPOSE or VISION why is it bad? I feel like I am meant for something HUGE as a man. Not only creating a family and being the provider for it but doing something way bigger then it. For that I will need a woman who supports my vision and will anything to help me (in return I give her the adventure of this mission and ability to have someone like a rock, who can she trust). It's not cool for a woman to choose carer over family because you women are way better at family things then men. We don't have that intuition and nurturing ability. They are not our gifts. Some men are nurturing and understanding... but honestly.. most of them are just wimps.. I know because I've been there. I was that new age man who was for feminism and thought that men are pigs. Nope, it's not true, we are equal even when a man is provider and a woman is looking after the family.. Women these days are afraid to stay at home and not be pursuing a career because Cosmo said it's cooler to be a business woman then a mother.

I don't dictate anything. You just get insulted and look at my post as an insult. I love women, they are wonderful creatures worth the best. That's why we as men pursue women and try to be the best Mr.Right possible..

Choosing a family over career doesn't make career impossible. If you can be the best mother to your kids and manage a career , do it with no doubt. Mother is most important of the parents in kids lives (esp. at the start of their lives).

No need to go to extreme and say that men are dominating these days and don't let women have careers.. no way girl... it was truth in the past but these days are gone. Of course there are still some men who might do it but they are rare..

As for those men being better at nurturing family than women... I really doubt their masculinity..There are women who are masculine and men who are feminine.. but that's not really normal...

Please don't write posts this long.. hard to respond to every question then..

[seeker5]

Please remember that our goal on this forum is to have highly conscious and respectful discussions. I understand this thread brings out a heated topic. Please keep your language respectful to ensure the discussion stays respectful.

[pterodactyl]

"Maybe you are just unprepared to have a family?"

No, I made this decision with clear and conscious deliberation, and I made as compassionate and mindful a choice as I could. After explaining this rationale clearly in my previous post, I find your response insulting and glib. I don't have to justify my choice to you; I only answered your initial question to show you that there are women who choose not to have children and who are passionate about their lives, careers and the world around them.

I find what you wrote in quotes below which you wrote to be incredibly insulting, otherwise I would have moved on and not commented. Look at the tone and language you are using in that paragraph, if you fail to understand why.

"I feel like I am meant for something HUGE as a man."

Just as I feel like I am in the midst of CREATING something HUGE as a HUMAN BEING on this planet. My gender does not confer an advantage or disadvantage in my life vision and path. I feel sorry for you that you have limited yourself such that yours does.

"For that I will need a woman who supports my vision and will anything to help me (in return I give her the adventure of this mission and ability to have someone like a rock, who can she trust). It's not cool for a woman to choose carer over family because you women are way better at family things then men."

Shouldn't you give this selfless slave who is willing to do 'anything to help' you a bit more than your "adventure" and "trust"? How about.. freedom and respect that is not based upon her gender and your limited concept of its value?

Your concepts of women's roles, if they do indeed represent those held by more men than just yourself (most of whom I've happily somehow managed to miss) are worrying to me. They undermine the independence and respect women have justly earned. They are damaging, insulting and hurtful to women who need encouragement to pursue their dreams and who would need the active support of the men they love to champion them. I worry that a generation of women will fail to seek out and live their true potential, and that the world will suffer as a result, if your attitude persists.

[Athena Arianna]

This thread is rumbling like one of the biggest train wrecks hehe.

So thats cool, for the site owner, as thread train wrecks are very popular in Cyber land! LOl, I know I'm guilty - you see a topic and think , hmm, this one should get combative, and so, there we are, reading all the polar viewpoints and responding emotionally in kind, and sheesh, it IS entertaining!

But since this thread is a Steve Pavlina site, knowing it is male viewpoint dominated, I have to add to it, to keep the entertainment factor brewing!

SO, I have to toss out this (sure to be contentious) female opinion -

I am a small farmer and being such, it is quite obvious in this condition how all-pervasive the male sex drive is. It seems males of all species are driven, biologically, to conquer & protect, yes, but the main aim of all that being to REPRODUCE!!! (yeah baby!!! cough, okay, back to the current topic...)

Anyway, as a fairly attractive single woman, yet also a shy, reclusive, inexperienced, innocent woman, it has been one of the hugest shocks of my life to find out how many supposedly happily married, totally committed, totally respectual husbands, have made a dramatic try for action with me.

!!!!????!!!!

I finally figured it out, in my late 30's, mind - after rebuking many husbands of close female friends (and then regrettably cooling the friendships, to limit said wannabe wandering husbands access to me).

While it was sad for me to cut off friendships, in the end it key to my figuring out trouble -

It seems our human males, in keeping with most (if not all) males of mammalian species, are programmed deep down to mate with as many females as possible.

Big suprise? It shouldn't be, really! I mean all of (okay, most of) nature points toward this. My farm experience has plenty of anicdotal evidence to support it!

So, you would think this discovery would make me hate men... no, big suprise, it made me (finally) very fond & accepting of them. I think they are faced with a huge challenge, from birth. They are human, and caring and want to rise higher than this. But very basically, very vitally, they are driven to seek opportunities... to GET LAID!!! As often as possible, with as many willing partners as possible (most hopefully not getting caught by their primary partner, LOL).

Ah, you will try to dispute this theory with the evidence of the alpha wolf, or perhaps the permanently mating bird species. But I attest, were that male alpha wolf to find himself in a situation where he could (without being seen by his chosen female, OF COURSE! lol) hump a lower status female, quickly & furtively, He WILL and happily ( long as he doesn't get caught LOL)

This post is likely to ruffle feathers, and I probably should delete it.... But really, I LOVE men!!!! And feel for their dilemma, it can't be easy, being human AND male....

And I believe they (mostly) mean well. BUT I think I will post this, as I think it is evidence that the "woman's role" needs to be much larger than the OP suggests - or for one thing, we would have even worse overpopulation problems. LOL. But even more, we need the feminine as a management function ( this is probably not going to popular, but anyway) as having worked corporate America for 20 years or so, we often resolve impenetrable conflicts between warring corporate males by having a diplomatic female (yes, sometimes its been me) placed between them, to facilitate communication, & refocusing on tangible goals.

Athena,
just trying to help "fan the flame" of this entertaining thread LOL
(no seriously, if you want to chat about (or vent about, LOL) this thread, feel free to email me, a I don't visit this site more often than every week or so...)
arcadiafarm@juno.com

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

Having a vision and all that is great, but why look for a woman who supports your vision? What I mean is, why can't the woman have her own vision too? Why can't you support her vision, for example?

Why is it the woman's role to support the man's vision?

This sounds so damn sexist to me.

What's your internal reaction? That's what's been skipped in this whole thread.

So and so says X, I have a reaction to it and I say my mind. The only interesting part SHOULD BE your reaction, not the ego-driven storyline you produce after your reaction. Whats really really interesting is discovering the 'yes' that popped out right before the reaction came to shut it down. When you find that, y'all will be scratching your heads not knowing what to do.

Get interested in what is going on moment by moment. A lot of content is so rehearsed you totally miss what's really going on inside yourself.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by Athena Arianna

...
This post is likely to ruffle feathers, and I probably should delete it.... But really, I LOVE men!!!! And feel for their dilemma, it can't be easy, being human AND male....
...

It can't be easy to be a woman too, LOL. Please don't delete your post!

You're hitting the bull's eye so to speak. Most men are horny most of the time (I know I am one), and would get laid much more if a) it wouldn't cause problems with their loved ones b) the ladies would let them. It's as simple as that. For me as a man I can't really understand why most women don't want the same. Intellectually I can understand their reasoning but it does sound strange to me. I have loved women deeply yet I never liked being faithful sexually to them (I attracted those women, what is that???). It doesn't feel natural to me.

OK back on topic. What strikes me is that many are kind of defending their choices here. Why?

AfterADream defends that he needs a woman to support his vision. OK for him.

Pterodactyl defends that she needs to follow her own vision. OK for her.

Everyone has a unique vision for her/himself. Whatever it is, it's true for you, why bother what other people say / think about that? I'd say if people don't share your opinion, and you get defensive about that, maybe you don't fully believe in your own opinion?

For me it's more interesting why people have chosen their particular vision. In my opinion people choose their vision so they can focus on what they need to learn in this life. For AfterADream it might be that he needs to learn to be fully responsible for his partner and family. For Pterodactyl it might be that she needs to learn to be a successful independent woman.

My assumption of course is that we are here in this life to learn something (and have lots of fun too!). I don't know if it's true, but it does support me in supporting other people which is part of my vision.

So please share your visions, I find that very inspiring!

[AfteraDream]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

It can't be easy to be a woman too, LOL. Please don't delete your post!

You're hitting the bull's eye so to speak. Most men are horny most of the time (I know I am one), and would get laid much more if a) it wouldn't cause problems with their loved ones b) the ladies would let them. It's as simple as that. For me as a man I can't really understand why most women don't want the same. Intellectually I can understand their reasoning but it does sound strange to me. I have loved women deeply yet I never liked being faithful sexually to them (I attracted those women, what is that???). It doesn't feel natural to me.

OK back on topic. What strikes me is that many are kind of defending their choices here. Why?

AfterADream defends that he needs a woman to support his vision. OK for him.

Pterodactyl defends that she needs to follow her own vision. OK for her.

Everyone has a unique vision for her/himself. Whatever it is, it's true for you, why bother what other people say / think about that? I'd say if people don't share your opinion, and you get defensive about that, maybe you don't fully believe in your own opinion?

For me it's more interesting why people have chosen their particular vision. In my opinion people choose their vision so they can focus on what they need to learn in this life. For AfterADream it might be that he needs to learn to be fully responsible for his partner and family. For Pterodactyl it might be that she needs to learn to be a successful independent woman.

My assumption of course is that we are here in this life to learn something (and have lots of fun too!). I don't know if it's true, but it does support me in supporting other people which is part of my vision.

So please share your visions, I find that very inspiring!

A very good point. Yes, I want a woman who supports my visions and keeps family before her career. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN she can't have one. If she manages to be the best mother and to pursue her career at the same time than it's all good!! Why, Pterodactly, do you see those two things I highlighted as being two complete opposites? Can't both things be happening at the same time? Can't woman support my vision and still have hers? This is your limiting belief Ptero.. I don't mind my woman having a vision herself.. don't put your words into my mouth..

[AfteraDream]

Originally Posted by pterodactyl

"Maybe you are just unprepared to have a family?"

No, I made this decision with clear and conscious deliberation, and I made as compassionate and mindful a choice as I could. After explaining this rationale clearly in my previous post, I find your response insulting and glib. I don't have to justify my choice to you; I only answered your initial question to show you that there are women who choose not to have children and who are passionate about their lives, careers and the world around them.

I find what you wrote in quotes below which you wrote to be incredibly insulting, otherwise I would have moved on and not commented. Look at the tone and language you are using in that paragraph, if you fail to understand why.

"I feel like I am meant for something HUGE as a man."

Just as I feel like I am in the midst of CREATING something HUGE as a HUMAN BEING on this planet. My gender does not confer an advantage or disadvantage in my life vision and path. I feel sorry for you that you have limited yourself such that yours does.

"For that I will need a woman who supports my vision and will anything to help me (in return I give her the adventure of this mission and ability to have someone like a rock, who can she trust). It's not cool for a woman to choose carer over family because you women are way better at family things then men."

Shouldn't you give this selfless slave who is willing to do 'anything to help' you a bit more than your "adventure" and "trust"? How about.. freedom and respect that is not based upon her gender and your limited concept of its value?

Your concepts of women's roles, if they do indeed represent those held by more men than just yourself (most of whom I've happily somehow managed to miss) are worrying to me. They undermine the independence and respect women have justly earned. They are damaging, insulting and hurtful to women who need encouragement to pursue their dreams and who would need the active support of the men they love to champion them. I worry that a generation of women will fail to seek out and live their true potential, and that the world will suffer as a result, if your attitude persists.

You said you made the decision being a teenager.. that's why I doubt your reasons and maybe it would be time to re-think them. You think that if you wont give birth to one baby the world will be a better place? And you are afraid that your marriage will fall apart because of having a kid??? This is definitely a wrong belief to have..

About that "selfless slave" thing - why is helping your man slaving?? Why is there no freedom for a woman? I don't want to make any girl be mine. She has to make a choice to be part of my life and be supporting my vision. If she doesn't want she doesn't have to... I'm not holding her down, go and find another guy who's life is better for you.

And answer me this question: Why is it bad for a woman not to want a career and be sit at home mum? Why is this demeaning for a woman? Why is it bad for a man to be the provider of the family? Why is it bad for a man to take responsibility on himself fully for this matter and let his wife enjoy live with less problems? Huh?

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by AfteraDream

...
And answer me this question: WHY IS IT BAD FOR A WOMAN TO NOT WANT A CAREER AND BE SIT AT HOME MUM? Why is this demeaning for a woman?

Nobody said so, I think?

[polyfulcrum]

It seems like the main point of contention is based around the way gender roles and desires are being globalized. Rather than sharing that "I would like to find a woman that does xyz, and thinks that is ultimately fulfilling." the statements are going more like, "Women should do/think/feel xyz, or they are emotionally immature, in denial of their own nature, selfish, and doomed to a lifetime of unfulfilling relationships."

Since we are all different, though there can be some common themes that run through each gender, there are no global statements that will work for each man and woman out there.

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

Having a vision and all that is great, but why look for a woman who supports your vision? What I mean is, why can't the woman have her own vision too? Why can't you support her vision, for example?

Why is it the woman's role to support the man's vision?

This sounds so damn sexist to me.

Two people-one male, one female-two diverse visions, one union, how do they cope? Two people with from different homes with different dreams in one union are difficult but not impossible. There are three choices one; Woman foregoes her vision and supports the man (this is the most common), two; Man dumps his and supports the woman’s (uncommon) and three; they both chase after their individual dreams and support each other (very rare but most workable).
Individual sacrifice and understanding form the basis of all decisions that pertains to marriage, declining to budge does not work in marriage for there is room for all the three options depending on individual goals.

[Bradshaw]

Originally Posted by AfteraDream

No sexism here mate, you as a man should have a purpose (a vision) that you follow no matter what. If a woman doesn't support and understand it you should leave her. She can have her own vision but women are not born for this (emotionally healthy woman prefers family and kinds over anything). She doesn't want to be an adventure, SHE WANTS TO BE TAKEN on an adventure. And a man's adventure is his vision...

Take Erin and Steve for example. Erin and Steve support each other's vision. And somehow i'm fairly sure that they are pretty healthy. In fact from what i remember, it was Steve who supported Erin on her vision. She wanted to go to NASA and Steve helped her fulfill her vision of helping people with her abilities. Erin's life seems to be quite the adventure. As is Angela's. And they seem to be pretty emotionally healthy.

Supporting and understanding each other's vision is best. If she sacrifices her vision for you, then what you have basically done is reduce her power in the world.

And, by the way, you can be both masculine and feminine. You don't have to pick one or the other.

[songwriter]

Originally Posted by Angela

Johnny, is that what you do? Is that what David DeAngelo does? Declaring that women who don't fall into this (yes, sexist) idea that women don't prefer family and "kind" over all else are emotionally unhealthy?

From what I've read of Johnny and DeAngelo, I think it's pretty unlikely that they'd make a declaration like this -- mostly because it doesn't sound like an effective approach if you want to get laid or have a great relationship with a woman.

As an emotionally healthy woman, I volunteer to come to Las Vegas to be a Subject Female in the PUAY-offs.

What about "a woman that supports your vision.... and you (the man) supporting your woman's vision"?

It's not so hard to write.

Go Angela, I would like to read reports from you, let's see what these super social skills are...

[AfteraDream]

Originally Posted by Bradshaw

Take Erin and Steve for example. Erin and Steve support each other's vision. And somehow i'm fairly sure that they are pretty healthy. In fact from what i remember, it was Steve who supported Erin on her vision. She wanted to go to NASA and Steve helped her fulfill her vision of helping people with her abilities. Erin's life seems to be quite the adventure. As is Angela's. And they seem to be pretty emotionally healthy.

Supporting and understanding each other's vision is best. If she sacrifices her vision for you, then what you have basically done is reduce her power in the world.

And, by the way, you can be both masculine and feminine. You don't have to pick one or the other.

No thanx, I prefer masculine...

I never said a woman can't have her own vision, just that she should support mine and choose her family over career.
And Steve has written himself that his mission is more important than any relationship. If Erin was not supportive he'd leave her probably. My whole point of view is based on his How to be a Man post because I can relate to what he wrote there a lot.

[Angela]

Yeah, songwriter, I think that is one of the essences of loving, long-term, mutually beneficial relationships -- supporting one another's vision and purpose.

As I've mentioned before, I think compromise is overrated. If one partner subjugates their own vision and purpose to their partner's, or even worse, to the bullying of some ridiculous standard that society says one must fit into or risk being considered unhealthy, then he or she is being stingy in his/her expression of the infinitely abundant, joyful, and powerful gift that we give ourselves by choosing to play in the human game. It's contraction, not expansion.

Personally, I think that's a really stupid thing to do. Or to ask someone you love to do. That's just me.

.....Those social skills, yeah, interesting, from a woman's point of view. It's fun to be present to how men approach women -- with how much authenticity? How much engagement, generosity, love, respect? How playful or serious are they? I think romantic relationship is one of my favorite parts of this Game.

[Bliss Sage]

Why is the idea of a woman wanting to have a man she respects and can get behind in his cause so revolting? Like the wife of Gandhi. I would love to have a husband I could love and support like that.

Why do women always insist on being exactly like men?

What is so revolting about men and women having different roles?

[AfteraDream]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

Why is the idea of a woman wanting to have a man she respects and can get behind in his cause so revolting? Like the wife of Gandhi. I would love to have a husband I could love and support like that.

Why do women always insist on being exactly like men?

What is so revolting about men and women having different roles?

Exactly! Why do women want to be like men? Equality is good, but sameness is not..

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

Why is the idea of a woman wanting to have a man she respects and can get behind in his cause so revolting? Like the wife of Gandhi. I would love to have a husband I could love and support like that.

Why do women always insist on being exactly like men?

What is so revolting about men and women having different roles?

Who said a woman wanting to have a man she respects and whose cause she can get behind is revolting?

Women always insist on behaving exactly like men? From where are you getting that data?

Who declares what roles, different or not, men and women have? Wouldn't you and I agree that each of us distinguishes our own role? Or would you say that there is some objective, inarguably written in cement role that each must or *should* fulfill?

[pterodactyl]

"What is so revolting about men and women having different roles?"

It isn't revolting, it's that when these roles become expected as normal and hence the most acceptable behavior for couples and no other avenues are considered, it is limiting. What is expected often becomes what is rewarded (and socially enforced).

I think it is profoundly selfish to expect someone you love to support your vision and abandon their own. If you genuinely want to love and support someone, and that alone is your vision, more power to you-- find someone like AfteraDream to serve and make more people together. If you, like most women, have aspirations and dreams and goals outside the home and in addition to having a family, I strongly feel that your partner and spouse should support those dreams and goals selflessly.

Let's say AfteraDream's wife was a writer before she met him. When she marries him, she wants to support his vision of individual greatness, whatever that may be, and he becomes tremendously successful. She puts writing on hold to raise her family and help AfteraDream rise to greatness, but deep inside the desire persists and burns within her. Finally, she begins to write again and becomes wildly successful at it, like J.K. Rowling. Suddenly, she has book tours, invited talks, screenwriters and publishers to meet, autographs to sign, magazine interviews to give, and on top of it she wants to write more books. Her family time diminishes because of her success, just as AfteraDream's did when he became a success. Let's say she becomes more successful at her career than AfteraDream. She is tremendously happy to have fulfilled her dream, but her career is now taking precedence over family.

Does AfteraDream now leave and divorce his successful wife (and her income), whom any man would be proud to be married to? Or does he step up himself, take on the role of family man, and proudly support his wife's direction, just as she has supported his?

This double-standard is behind many divorces today. AfteraDream should marry a woman with few ambitions outside the home in order to be happy and feel fulfilled.

[AfteraDream]

Originally Posted by pterodactyl

"What is so revolting about men and women having different roles?"

It isn't revolting, it's that when these roles become expected as normal and hence the most acceptable behavior for couples and no other avenues are considered, it is limiting. What is expected often becomes what is rewarded (and socially enforced).

I think it is profoundly selfish to expect someone you love to support your vision and abandon their own. If you genuinely want to love and support someone, and that alone is your vision, more power to you-- find someone like AfteraDream to serve and make more people together. If you, like most women, have aspirations and dreams and goals outside the home and in addition to having a family, I strongly feel that your partner and spouse should support those dreams and goals selflessly.

Let's say AfteraDream's wife was a writer before she met him. When she marries him, she wants to support his vision of individual greatness, whatever that may be, and he becomes tremendously successful. She puts writing on hold to raise her family and help AfteraDream rise to greatness, but deep inside the desire persists and burns within her. Finally, she begins to write again and becomes wildly successful at it, like J.K. Rowling. Suddenly, she has book tours, invited talks, screenwriters and publishers to meet, autographs to sign, magazine interviews to give, and on top of it she wants to write more books. Her family time diminishes because of her success, just as AfteraDream's did when he became a success. Let's say she becomes more successful at her career than AfteraDream. She is tremendously happy to have fulfilled her dream, but her career is now taking precedence over family.

Does AfteraDream now leave and divorce his successful wife (and her income), whom any man would be proud to be married to? Or does he step up himself, take on the role of family man, and proudly support his wife's direction, just as she has supported his?

This double-standard is behind many divorces today. AfteraDream should marry a woman with few ambitions outside the home in order to be happy and feel fulfilled.

AfteraDream supports her all along but let's her know that she can't put career before children. And AfteraDream's will have a career bigger and more successful than anyone, he will be a good father to his children and will try to find as much time for his kids as he can. Plus, most of wife's writing will probably happen at home so she can look after kids at the same time. AfteraDream will always be a family man but won't be sit at home dad. There is a big possibility though that he will work from home and the whole family will be together for most of the time.... Divorce won't happen unless the wife clearly abandons kids and pays no attention to her man.

And why is a woman helping her man is a servant according to you? She is still equal. That's your limiting belief not my selfishness..