Goodbye
 

Deleted for privacy reasons.
This forum is no use for me.


Goodbye

Hmm. First off, I'm kind of curious why you keep referring to your ideal romantic partner as a prize? It reminds me of the phrase "Trophy Girlfriend" or "Trophy Wife", meaning that that woman is generally "prized" for her looks but not really anything else.

Anyway... as for advice. What value do you believe you have to offer or bring to a relationship? A good relationship depends on so much more than looks, although they certainly are an undeniable factor. If you feel you aren't attractive or fit, then why not set your mind and ambition to excel in becoming fit, strong, and sexy? I think it simply takes commitment. Healthy and happy people are, generally speaking, pretty attractive.

If you become a healthy, happy and attractive individual, it's very likely you'll attract the same.

I guess my advice boils down to focusing on yourself and becoming what you perceive to be the "ideal" partner for the kind of woman you are looking for, while staying true to yourself and your ideals, and the rest will follow.

Tip for you, young man.

The ladies don't like being regarded as a "prize". They like being regarded as "human beings".

LOL, karma at work.

Looks like you were dumped by your lady, for a better "prize".

So...you're giving up? I sense a lack of man-juice.

P.S. All of these women you regarded as "first prize" that CHOSE GUYS WITH MORE MONEY (hint hint), knew exactly what they were doing and what kind of a guy you are. You are the common denominator.

This right here, this is the reason why you haven't had a successful relationship and will never have a successful relationship until you change t his belief.

You cannot sit around telling yourself that you are going to fail and then magically expect success.

Looks mean very little to women, dude. Haven't you ever looked at a couple and thought to yourself, "Damn! How in the hell did she end up with him?"

Your looks have absolutely jack to do with why you are unsuccessful with women. It has everything to do with your attitudes, lack of self-confidence, and negative beliefs.

The good news is, that you can actually CHANGE those, do the best with what you've got physically, and actually become very successfull with women if you take the time to reconstruct your beliefs about them (and about dating) and learned a thing or two about them.

Says who? And even if it were true (which it isn't given that there are no absolutes in terms of attractiveness), who ever said it matters?

Paradoxal much?

And why would being fit, wealthy or charismatic be important just to find a mate? If these goals are important to you, pursue them. If they are secondary, pursue your true goals and I assure you there will be a variety of people out there who will be able to appreciate them.

Also, I have a problem with your notion of "first prize women". By that, do you mean the women you are most attracted to and who would be the best match with you? If so, then it is definitely worth pursuing ; actually it's be stupid and disrepsectful to date someone you don't believe is attractive or a good match! But the notion of prize implies a universally recognized ranking. In terms of partners or friends, there is just no such thing.
It's not about lowering your expectations and making do with what ou can get. It's about knowing what is best for you, not what society tells you to want.

@Rachelle
I have a deep respect for women, the same respect I have for men and all other human beings. I don't make any distinction, and I have fervently fought to make this clear through what many would call "feminist" acticism, and I know very well both from real life experience and academic studies that looks don't always say everything about the other traits of the person. Each individual has her special and unique set of qualities. Research does suggest that good looks can influence the development of ones' personality!

However, I personally love the intrinsic value of physical beauty. I'm not discussing whether beauty is objective or subjective, but simply that if I am to live with another person, beauty (in the way I perceive it in advance, before knowing the rest of the person) is the most important trait.
And, after all these years, I could reach the extent of saying that beauty/sexual attractivity is the only thing I truly need from my ideal romantic partner, since I am pretty self-sufficient in everything else.
I have tried believing that I also need emotional commitment and such things, but I come to the conclusion that those eat me up from within even when I am in the "honeymoon phase" of a relationship. I am very well off by myself and feel that I can do my best towards the world and myself like that.

I am pretty healthy and very happy, sometimes even overly optimistic :D (which may be related to why I am so self-sufficient).

What I omitted in my above post is that my attractivity has been hampered by a disability that was caused in an incident (yeah, even ambitious people fail!) so that's something I cannot work on. I have tried to, but I invested so much time that I had to put aside many things where I generally excel at.
What I mean is that I would want to become attractive only in order to get the most attractive girl... which led to my conclusion: if such an investment is too risky and doesn't have return, it would be really a big cost for me in terms of all my other activities.

What I can offer to a woman?

I think leadership, social stability (in the long term, i.e. when I am up in my career ladder) and a bit of entertainment. However, I fail in some of the most important things needed by an extremely attractive woman (according to empirical research):
- protection, physical strength
- money in the short term (Invesment Banking is not my career choice)
- rich and popular family

I know this is true, but to a point. Geeze, I'm trying so hard to be impeccable with my word. I'm trying, i'm trying, but this guy is messed up. James, help him. (I was reading your bolg) Give him the gold membership program or i'm showing him to the door. :D

This is not about attitudes or beliefs but results of empirical research.

Howevermuch confident you are, there are so many other rules in play that may sound superficial but are what drives the world: money, physical strength, etc.

I don't want to make any assumptions about where you are getting at but before anything let me tell you that I also explored seduction/pick up methods in my late teens, and many of my few relationships started thanks to those.

What I conclude, however, is that no seduction method can ever even out your pre-conditions in the long term, unless you consciously work on those pre-conditions (money, strength, etc.)

Centuries of empirical study, complemented and confirmed by modern science, especially social and evolutionary psychology.
Unfalsifiable by my personal experiences (and trust me, I tried pretty hard to to be an exception).

Totally agree. This is what I meant by first prize. Sorry for the wording though.
But read what I replied to Rachelle to understand what is best for me.

What I mean here is that when I am in a relationship with my ideal woman, I want to invest a lot in it since I believe it to be one of the most important and special events of our life.

However, investing in order to increase the probability of getting something, i.e. in order to get into the relationship, is a bit like blind-hunting to me.

in a nutshell
 

you won't settle for less, but you expect the female to settle for less. Good luck with that.

You hit the nail on the head.

That's why I tend to think that I am probably not ideal for romantic relationships, and romantic relationships are not ideal for me :)

Everything is about attitudes and beliefs. Every action you have done or will do first started as a thought or a belief. Your mind and body are like a computer in a lot of ways...whatever you input into the computer, it will spit it back out. Garbage in....garbage out.

Your actions, lack of action, accomplishments are ALL a mirror of your thoughts.

Until you get that most basic of concepts, you will NEVER ever ever be able to change.

You are not the world. You are one person. And the dynamic of the world is so diverse and fluid that you can't broadstoke any generalization to "fit" into the mold. Like I said, it's your beliefs that are limiting you...not the world.

ESPECIALLY with women. Your situation (money, physical strength) is not holding you back from being successful with women. It's your beliefs that are reflecting a menatlity that is unattractive to women.

You see an effect, and you immediately link the cause to some external cause. For example, you look at guys with money, strength, power, etc. and see that they are surrounded by women. So you immediately do what most of us men do...logically conclude that women want men who have money, strength, power.

But it's not the money, strength, power, etc. that women want. It's the attitudes that come WITH those things that they want/are attracted to.

For example...a man with money has shown several things: 1. He can provide for her and her children 2. Socially he has been accepted and has the confidence to continually get what he wants...so she knows that not only can he provide for her, but he has what it takes to keep providing for her long term.

A man with strength has show several things as well...1. He is confident and believes in himself, because he is strong and can take care of himself (and her) 2. He has the stamina to endure hardships and overcome them

Do you see what I'm getting at? Also, keep in mind that these are subconcious cues that a woman receives from those things. She doesn't actually THINK that, for example, "Oh he has money! He can provide for me!" It doesn't work that way. All it does is flip a switch that she probably can't describe or pinpoint, but is biological and psychology within her. In the same way a nice pair of breasts or a wide set of hips flips those switches in YOU, as a man, that you are attracted to her. You just know that you are attracted to her. You don't consciously realize that you are subconsciously attracted to those things because they signal 1. The increased likelihood of healthy offspring 2. Her ability to nourish a child.

As a scientist, that should make *some* sense to you that the attraction switches within in us are a result of evolution and the things that we find attractive stem from the things that our ancestors of ancient have replicated. The genes that have survived (us), are essentially based in the natural selection of mates in our history.

That should give you a clue, then. I'm not big on the PUA community, but there ARE many great things that it can teach you. The biggest is that you need to get off your ass, go out and try stuff, and see what works for yourself. That's the most important thing you can carry away from that type of stuff.

You're on the right track, but I think you put too much stock in those specifics (money, for instance). it's not the money...it's the things BEHIND the money.

Here's the deal....

1. The number one most important thing you can do for yourself is live a healthy lifestyle. This means eating right and exercising. Without a healthy body, you aren't going to have the drive to endure. So, first things first, research/study nutrition and exercise and find yourself a good regimine to get yourself on.

2. Career. It's not so important that you make a ton of money. What IS important is that you find a career that not only makes you happy/gives you fulfillment, but also puts food on the table and provides stability. The ability to provide while providing value to others is not only important for women, but for yourself as well.

3. Social circles. Building your world. Knowing who you are. Look, are you even living? Or are you sitting around reasoning the world and life away. You don't have to be some party animal, life-of-the-party type, but you do need to know some basic social dynamics, have some stuff going on in your life so that you aren't needy/clingy, and be generally happy about the world you have built for yourself. You construct your reality...not vice versa.

You take care of and focus on those three things, you are going to see major changes in the area of your relationships. Why? Because in getting what you want in those three things will ultimately change your attitudes about life....the crux of everything that is holding you back right now.

@James81
Thanks for your extensive answer.

I agree with many things you say.

From some paragraphs of your reply I also feel that you are making too many assumptions about me as a person and of my experiences, so I feel you didn't get the point of my problem.

What I'm trying to say since my first post is that, in all my experiences so far in life, I've had an extremely positive attitude towards everything, including in my general relationships with women.
However, my positive attitude (and however much happy I have been) severely clashes with what I study in science and what empirical findings say.
My relationship to what I learn is:
- I experience life
- I study life, learn something new
- I apply that in my next experience
- I add that experience to my studies
and that's a kind of loop.

Yet... the findings of valid academic empirical research have a greater weight on my conclusions in my personal life (and this may be my mistake!).

My interior struggle has always been to disprove the typical materialistic results of science. So, in many ways I agree with what you're saying, or I would want that what you say is universally true, but science says the opposite.
(note that I am using the generalized word "science" as all empirical research and academic theories in psychology... it has no relation to science vs religion or such issues).

So, to be completely honest, I'd be glad to create my own research project in which I convince all the current scientists that what you are saying is possible is true! Now that would be great.

More specifically...

I agree with most of what you say (on attraction, mate choice, etc. most of which is also quite common sense in psychology), but there are certain things that cannot be changed, esp. due to my disability.

I am in the process of doing all those things :)
Yet I wonder whether I will be able to get the most beautiful woman unless I make major sacrifices (getting THE most well-paying job, etc. basically, focusing all my choices on goals of life, career, interests, etc. only so that I can get her!).

What I am saying is that I don't want my desire to get the most beautiful woman to shape my life, my activities, my interests, my career etc. since they are more important to me than any romantic relationship.

However, should I ever decide to be in a relationship with a woman, beauty is for me the most important value since I enjoy it intrinsically. Please read my answer to Rachelle to understand what I mean.

Actually, the data indicates more clearly that women are attracted to the things that CREATE wealth. Those would be Openness to New Experiences, Conscienciousness (on the Big Five) and Intelligence (just IQ is fine). Look up the work of Jordan Peterson if you're interested. He did some research on this, dunno if he published it, though. Anyhoo, in his study, women picked the rich, productive guy (ie had the above traits), then the poor, productive guy, then the rich, useless guy, then the poor, useless guy, if I recall correctly.

That makes more sense, too, no? Back in the good ol' days, most forms of "wealth" would just spoil and rot within a few days, so it's more important to be able to know how to fish than to have a lot of fish.

It's a bad idea to pick scientific principles to be axioms of your reality. They're usually low correlation and prone to changing. There are serious issues with evolutionary psych. Especially anything from psych is not like the laws of physics. It's not really "exceptions" but more like, a lot of things just don't apply in a certain percentage of the cases. Even in Seligman's learned helplessness experiments, a third or somin of the dogs just couldn't be trained to be helpless.

But all the above was just cause I was interested, but I know I won't change your mind. You already think you know better. Now I'm more interested in why you would post this here as your first few posts. Seeking attention, perhaps? Or perhaps you do want everyone to jump out and say "no don't!"? I'm not sure what game you're playing, but I sure hope you do.

In any case, congratz on your decision! Have fun!

Gotcha. But you know, empirical research gives you trends, how most members of a group behaves. In real life this is irrelevant: you're not looking to settle down with the majority of "first class" women, you just want one. Go look for the exceptions.

But your attitude ISN'T positive. Or, and no offense is meant by this, what I'm trying to say in blunt terms is that you are LYING TO YOURSELF. You are telling yourself that you have a positive attitude, but from an outside perspective (i.e. mine) you DON'T have a positive attitude. And that's easy to do. Hell, I've done it myself. Remember this post by you:

Let me break out, specifically, the attitude I am talking about:

Read that again. Recognize what you are doing with that statement. The statement itself is a poster example of one of those statements that signify you have negative attitudes about yourself because you are using an extreme with no real justification behind it other than your limited experiences (i.e. using the word "never" in a situation where you simply DON'T KNOW THAT, unless you are a prophet and can see the future).

And that's what I'm trying to point out to you.

Your past experiences have shaped who you are and what you believe (sure, I'll buy that), but they do not define who you CAN BE. Only what you do NOW defines that, and you aren't getting the things you want NOW because of your limitations in the PAST. But now that you have opened your mind to change...to a new set of attitudes....you can begin seeing the affects those attitudes (assuming you accept my challenge to change those attitudes) have on your ability to get things done in the FUTURE.

1. Your approach isn't scientific because you aren't starting with a completely unbiased hypothesis. Let me point that out by quoting the part that suggests that:

Your hypothesis is so general (disprove typical materialistic results of science)and you are specifically setting out to bend the science to what YOU think. And of course, you are going to get the results you desire because that's what you are focused on. Wouldn't a more scientific approach be to "verify the validity of the typical materialisitic results of science"? Again, another cue to your inherently negative belief system (again, nothing personal).

Mind sharing what your disability is? But again, there are limits from your disability, but it doesn't mean that you will inherently fail to get what you want. The interesting thing about going after what you want is that in the process of doing so, you actually discover what you NEED.

NO! No! No! Man, damn no!

Look, if you set out after those goals merely to acheive them to get a woman, you are going to likely fail, give up, or just become bitter about the process.

You don't do those things to "get a woman." You do those things because you know those are what's BEST for you as an individual. You do those things to show yourself you don't NEED a woman (that you can be happy on your own because you create your own happiness), and then the byproduct of those things is that you become more attractive to women because you have become independent.

You cannot approach those things from the standpoint of getting a woman, nor can you approach those things as some sort of scientific test to see if I am right. You must approach those things because you truly, inherently, believe that it is the best thing for you. Which...comes back to beliefs again. If you don't believe that, then your first goal is to find a way TO believe that. Then proceed.

@James81
You're confusing the attitude of the words I wrote here with my general attitude in life. Or better: my negative conclusions here are based on the input I receive from scientific research and academic texts, and also the input I have been receiving over years ever since I started exploring the field of psychology (and that goes back to almost my childhood), which I spend most of my time with.

They may have indeed shaped my own attitude, but what I am trying to say is that my way of approaching things is so connected to science/research/academics that if I want to reach a positive conclusion, I need to see empirical results of that.
(As a matter of fact, each time there is some finding e.g. in neuroplasticity that confirms how we are able to change and adapt ourselves to get the best even in the worst situations, that reinforces my own attitude and makes me even more positive! Whereas, if I read that a recent experiment found out that women generally don't like disabled people, my overall attitude slightly goes down)

Anyway, addressing the specific points...

This is what I was trying to say. I pursue my health because I truly want to stay healthy. I pursue my career/interests/activities because I truly like them. I pursue my social circles and establish new ones because I like them.
But, judging the specific things that I like as an individual and comparing them to what the majority of "most beautiful women" want (both academically and through experience, observation of others etc.) is that these things won't attract the women I like. In my experience, it has attracted women whom I don't like!!!

So, I'd rather pursue my objectives without even thinking about the byproducts.

It's related to the spine. Something that isn't completely visible, i.e. it hampers my body movements' spontaneity. A person who sees me the first time wouldn't say I am disabled but that I appear physically inactive. This is accompanied by perpetual chronic pain. (no problem for me), but the main problem is that I cannot lift anything or do anything with my arms and legs that requires physical strength. Except for walking. But the doctors aren't sure whether I'll be able to walk for very long.

See my paragraph above in which I described the relationship of my attitude to scientific discovery. Mmmm... so this is not science, but the way I perceive life...
But the former influences the latter.

I have no inherently negative belief system; what I am saying is that I try to base my positive expectations on valid empirical verifications.

For example, if suddenly there was a researcher saying that the people who have my specific disability will get the hottest women on Earth, I will immediately apply that to my attitude and... probably get the hottest woman on Earth!

Perhaps I was clearer about my problem this time.

Agreed. But is the time and money I invest in looking for these exceptions worth it? I feel that if I go looking for them, I might compromise my other areas of life (interests, activities, career, health, etc.)

Thanks I'll look this up. I hadn't heard of him before.

Finding theories, answers, reality models or concrete evidence tha I may have overlooked :)

Or, in case there aren't and I do have all the complete inputs from psychology, completely abandon the pursuit of even thinking of women and going on with my life as usual :)

So what's the problem then? Strike romantic relationships from your 'to do' list and you'll have a happy life.

Or, you do want a romantic relationship? Well better reconsider some beliefs you have in this area, then. My recommendations: women don't like to be a goal on your list. They're not assets, or results in your personal development or objects of social science (well actually, they are the latter, but they don't want to be considered that way. Neither do you or I.) They're human beings. Why not just enjoy their company, and forget the relationship for now? Take a break...

Honestly, it's not a matter of clarity. I understand you perfectly. You are just refusing to see the truth behind what I'm telling you. When you are ready for that, you'll see it. I just don' think you are ready to accept what I'm telling you, and thus you think I'm misunderstanding you or whatever.

I think I've given you all the advice that you need for now. The only thing I can do is to encourage you to TRULY open your mind, look past the whole "scientific" mindset for a few minutes and re-read what I've told you. The simple fact is that you can't deal with women with a scientific mindset. You just can't, and I've explained why. So right now you have two options:

1. You can choose to set aside your limiting beliefs, embrace a new philosophy and mindset towards dating.

or

2. You can simple choose to write off relationships for good and choose to be alone.

Only you can decide which of those things can make you happy. If you can be happy choosing point 2 (which it doesn't sound like you ARE happy with that), more power to you. If you want to meet with more success in relationships, however, you need to embrace point 1 and start working towards that end.

I AM sorry to hear about your physical issues though. That's gotta be rough and hard on you. :(

Sorry, you did not explain why. You only said I have a negative attitude; and also used some theories yourself that had been introduced by science. So I don't clearly understand where you stand.

Which specific beliefs and which new philosophy? This is not a rhethoric question. I am extremely confused since I don't understand what exactly you mean by the way you phrase this.

Are you saying I have to change my university subject?
Or that I should separate my personal life from what I learn through studies?
If it's this, how do you imagine I should do this?
Till which point of my life history do I have to go back in order to separate my personal experience from what I learned through books?

What I mean is there are also many positive things in my life that I would have never learned or experienced if i hadn't learned psychology.

Hmmm... I don't need their company :)

This is why I say you aren't ready to hear what I'm telling you. Good luck dude. Come back to this thread in a couple of months and re-read my posts and see if they don't make more sense.

Try this: Sit alone somewhere, and say to yourself, "If I were a man who knew all the answers, what would I tell myself?" Then listen to your own advice and see where it gets you. Meanwhile, I'll be ****ing myself and everyone else here.

I give myself the best advice I've ever received. I only ask other people out of curiosity, usually. Maybe you're the same.

What in the world is going on here? Someone seems like they're pretty angry. Well, I didn't really know FirstLife, but he's gone now, and this forum is going to be a little lighter. Probably a little more positive, too. I didn't read the original post because it said it was deleted for privacy reasons, so I guess I'll just leave it at that. If he has no use for this forum, he doesn't have to come here. Neither does anyone else.

wow. that was a bit weird. Geeze I was really getting into reading all those posts. :(