Porn and Relationships

[Matthew Shea]

It seems to me that monogamy carries the connotation of a single, real life, sexual partner. I don't think that most people, myself included, would view porn or even masturbation as straying from a monogamous relationship. Ultimately both are a matter of self-gratification that don't involve a real-life partner. I would argue that porn equates to simple visual stimulation and is inherenty intended and used as fantasy.

Having said that, your definition, Sally, definitely jives with my understanding of the word. I can certainly understand that some people have problems with their partners viewing porn and/or masturbating, but I would not go so far as to say that doing so is breaking a monogamous commitment.

[jamasiel]

Originally Posted by sallyfrieldam

hi jamasiel

is there porn that doesnt involve violence? if so can you give me the keywords so i can google it and find it. I have looked and looked and all i can find is violence wrapped up as sex. Farryn seems to be expressing a wish for a monogamous rellationship. Do you think her boyfriend is being monogamous by regularly masturbating to the thought of being sexual with other women and saying they should be sexual with other people?

I can't answer that question because you're obviously viewing porn in entirely different terms than I do. I don't view most porn as violent. (Although some is, of course)
I'm not going to argue the point with you, but seeing as we're on such divergent points on that, I really don't see how we can connect on it.
You're comparing fantasy life to action (even thinking about other people is akin to action) - which just shows how far apart we are on this, and I consider it pointless to try to persuade you otherwise, or even say you're "wrong" vs. me being "right".

If he's saying they should be sexual with other people,that's radically different than masturbating to fantasy. I'm not sure what that has to do with a fulfilling relationship.
Your minds are free - we're advanced beyond animals because of our capacity to fantasy, and fantasy is actually a tool for engagement with your own partner ~and~ reinforces the ability to not seek outside sexual satisfaction.

The solutions you offer...

"either with him using it less or not at all, you accepting its role in his life, or seeing that it all just doesn't matter that much."

... seem to overlook farryn feelings about porn being a bad thing. Do you think porn is an acceptable part of a loving monogamous relationship?

I think it can be. You seem to think it strictly can't be.
I don't think our roads will ever meet.

You'll kindly note that I said that an option would be to him changing his using porn - or changing her mindset. (I'll try to assume you weren't deliberately ignoring that part.)

Which do you think is more likely?

Additionally, her changing her mindset and approach would be more likely to leading to less or non-using of porn, if that is the conclusion they reach together. I'm disinterested in whether I prove to you that porn is a-ok, but would rather encourage people to have fulfilling relationships. I have a great one, porn and all. You can call me a liar, if you wish, but I'm a walking, breathing example of it working out fine. Thanks!

[sallyfrieldam]

Hi jamasiel

I have no wish to attack you, or for you to feel attacked. If you say that something works for you then you are right, you know yourself better than I know you.

I misread your words on him changing his use of porn. I thought the solutions you were offering were all about Farryn changing, so I stand corrected.

I think that people can have very fulfilling relationships and use violent or non violent pornography.

I personally feel violent pronography is harmful, it sometimes is not faked and includes real people being raped, tortured and hurt (it amazes me how this doesnt seem to bother people!!)and i feel that the reason people like to masturbate to it is that it fulfils some need in them and breaks down their internal resistance and normalises the violence.

There seems to be just a breakdown of semantics. I totally agree with you that porn can be a part of a fulfilling relationship if both partners want to include the fantasy of other people in their relationship. I think that is totally ok if that is what they want!! I know there is a difference between thoughts and actions.

Farryns seems to be saying that she doesnt want it to be a part of HER realtionship. I think this is totally reasonable. She is a human being with a right to her emotions, wants and desires. Are you saying she is wrong for wanting this? One poster went so far to say that if she feels like this she doesnt deserve a boyfriend. I just feel like we dont live in a porn dictatorship and everyone doesnt have to include it in their realtionship and we dont have to shame or be cruel to people who do not want to include porn in their relationship.

You wrote

"You'll kindly note that I said that an option would be to him changing his using porn - or changing her mindset. (I'll try to assume you weren't deliberately ignoring that part.)

Which do you think is more likely?"

I dont know which is more likely. It would be better to ask them that question. I dont know anything about them and therefore am not in a position to try to guess their behaviour.

[sallyfrieldam]

Hi Matthew

One solution would be to have two types of monogamy.

1. People who liked masturbating to the fantasy of being sexual with other people, but did not act out on their fantasies and have sex with multiple people in real life

2. People who like having real and fantasy sexual interactions with one partner.

It would be really cool if both were considered valid choices and everyone was allowed to express their preference free from pressure and coercion to mould themselves to fit in with other peoples version of reality.

[Farryn]

Wow, sallyfrieldam, thank you so much. And thanks to anyone else who wrote that I have a right to feel the way I do.

I hadn't visited this site for a long time (because my boyfriend [who is now my ex-boyfriend] got very upset when he read everyone's replies on the first page. I didn't intend to hurt his feelings or want to continue to hurt his feelings so I didn't return to the site). There were an extra 2 pages to this post when I came to it again! I found myself reacting very negatively to many of the replies. Luckily, sally's posts were there to set me back to a positive mindset.

I do want a monogamous relationship, and for me that means either watching porn together (although I haven't yet found a partner with whom I would trust and feel comfortable doing that) or it means not watching porn at all.

To those of you who wrote that I might be uncomfortable with sex, I'm not. I enjoy sex. I enjoy intimacy. Sex for me though is very emotional and I can't enjoy sex if I'm with a partner who I suspect may only care about the way I look. I was not attracted to my boyfriend at the time primarily because of the way he looked. I was attracted to who he was as a person, and it hurt me that he focused more on looks than I thought he did (since porn is sexual stimulation on looks alone). And please, from this last point about sex and emotions, don't assume that I don't like wild and lusty sex, because I do. But I like it with someone who I know cares a whole lot more about me than about the way I look.

Yes, my ex-boyfriend and I had a problem with communication: when he told me his reasons for watching porn, I failed to stand up for myself and my beliefs. I shut my mouth and convinced myself to accept his "need" to watch porn. If anything, it was a major failure of communication on my part because I didn't tell him sooner that we weren't compatilbe (porn wasn't the only reason).

It's okay that many people enjoy porn. I can enjoy certain types of it when I'm single, but I don't even consider watching it when I'm in a relationship. I don't feel the need to do something that I feel is very selfish when a man is offering his body and his emotional self to me. My boyfriend watching porn made me realize that he (not generalizing for all people who watch porn) probably wasn't offering his emotional self to me, only his physical self. That works for a one night stand, but not for a committed relationship (in my opinion).

Again, this is all only my opinion. I respect everyone else's (sorry that I responded negatively to some of your opinions). The bottom line though is that everyone has to follow their own instincts. I appreciate the discussion, but there isn't any one opinion that could have made me feel okay about my boyfriend watching porn.

All in all, he and I were simply not compatible. I'm sure I wouldn't have felt compelled to write such a post if I were in a loving relationship, even if that loving relationship involved porn. (Oh, and despite my feelings on the subject, I tried the, "maybe we could try to watch it together" route, but he wouldn't hear of it! He said he could only watch it alone).

Again, thank you. I tried to be something that I wasn't and failed. I'm never going to try that again. And I wish the same for all of you, and I admire those of you that have a strong sense of self and strong opinions about the subject (even if they differ from my own).

Farryn

[Matthew Shea]

Farryn,

Were you really asking for advice here or merely looking for people to back up your opinion? Based on your original post, I would have guessed the former. Now, however, we find out it was really the latter. When you ask for advice about a topic like this on an internet forum, you're going to get many different viewpoints, not all of which you'll agree with. I'm dismayed that you chose to simply reject outright any advice you disagree with. I would have hoped for something a little more open minded than that.

I'm sorry if this is harsh, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion on this matter, but please be clear when you're truly posting for advice vs. looking for support. I wish you better luck in your next relationship. Keep in mind, however, that most guys look at porn to a certain extent. You'll have to especially clear with your next romantic interest if you expect him to avoid porn. Also keep in mind that guys don't take hints very well.

[sallyfrieldam]

Hi Farryn

I'm sorry it didnt work out between you and your boyfriend. You have shown incredible courage and honesty to end a relationship that wasnt working. In your posts you come across as a very caring, considerate and loving person. There are lots and lots of men out there who really appreciate those qualities in a person. When you're ready you'll be able to find someone you are happy with, trust me!

I re-read your posts and am at a loss as to why Matthew thinks you were looking for people to back you up rather than for advice. I was surprised at the extreme negative reaction you got from some of the other posters in this thread too! I thought that since this was a personal development forum people would be more compassionate than average joes.

Trust yourself and your feelings. You are as important as everybody else, and your feelings are important and they do matter. If anybody tries to tell you that you are a bad person for having feelings understand that they are not being truthful.

My best wishes are with you!!

[ferociousgoals]

My advice for avoiding this situation in the future is to be very clear about this up front--a huge number of people (women and men) do watch porn and do not think of it as violating monogamous agreements in the least, so they should know from the get-go that you consider this cheating. It's not wrong at all for you to feel the way you do, or to have any sort of relationship requirement that isn't the norm, but it is on you to make sure you not asking something out of the norm from partners without warning.

[sallyfrieldam]

Hi Matthew

You posted...

"I'm dismayed that you chose to simply reject outright any advice you disagree with. I would have hoped for something a little more open minded than that."

Matthew, if I were to give you some advise that you disagreed with, would you reject it outright?

If the answer is yes, may I ask why you are dismayed at Farryn?

If the answer is no, then please take this advice. Please search your heart until you find your truth to the following questions...

(1)Do you honestly think Farryn would choose this forum for support instead of advice? Would she not have posted on one of the many forums that are against pornography if all she wanted was support.

(2)Do you have negative feelings about Farryns decision? Are you dismayed that she did not agree with your beliefs about porn in relationships?

[Matthew Shea]

Sally,

To put it as clearly as possible, and this is the last time I'll even look at this thread, I'm dismayed that my advice, and the advice of the many others that took a similar point of view, was simply waved off:

Originally Posted by Farryn

The bottom line though is that everyone has to follow their own instincts. I appreciate the discussion, but there isn't any one opinion that could have made me feel okay about my boyfriend watching porn.

Thanks for clarifying that now!

To answer question 1, yes, people do that on every forum I've ever read. It irritates me every time I see it. Regarding 2, if Farryn feels that way, fine. She has every right to hold her opinions and no obligation to agree with mine (and we are discussing opinions here, correct?). I would, however, appreciate a little more respect.

Finally, I acknowledge that I may be overreacting, but I stand by what I've said here.

[Velvet]

Originally Posted by sallyfrieldam

4. There are many many studies that link the use of porn to sexual violence. <snip>

Sally, you're obsessed with porn! Rrrowr!

As for your boyfriend's claim that after 6 years he only thinks of you when he masturbates--I'm sorry, but with all due respect, just reading that makes me uncomfortable. Not only do I not believe it, but I think it's a very unfair thing to require from a partner.

If my boyfriend ever held me to that standard, man, I'd be an adulterer of fearsome magnitude. And I'm a woman, with a much lower sex drive than most guys.

[Narz]

Originally Posted by Erock

I think it's really interesting seeing posts about porn and sex from men and women's points of view. As a 17 year old male, let me tell you that, at least from my personal experience, men are addicted to masturbating, not porn. I honestly feel it is because we, as men, have failed to learn how to circulate and control the immense sexual energy we are given. And because we have spent so many years just releasing it day after day, it becomes impossible to sustain. We don't need the pleasure of sex, but the release of all of the energy that comes with ejaculation.

Because most men's systems cannot sustain this energy, women become a tool or an object. That is why men objectify women so much. The better looking a woman is, the faster they can release, and so she is more valuable in a man's mind.

Now, what is the solution to this? I think men need to curb the addiction to ejaculation. If they did, women would not be treated as objects, and men would be much better lovers (last much longer). They wouldn't need to look at porn, or have sex every day or two. They could also use this energy for more productive means. Napoleon Hill talks about this and he calls it Sexual Transmutation, or using sexual energy for things other than sex. David Deida talks about how men need to learn to circulate their sexual energy, and I think this is really true.

Anyway, I can understand why you are offended, but realize that your boyfriend is like 99% of other men, and I guarentee you the reason he looks at porn is not because he doesn't like you, but because he is addicted to the release of energy.

So, can you achieve orgasm without ejaculation?

[Narz]

By the way, advice to the OP. If you don't like your man looking at porn, make your own. That way at least he'll be looking at you.

[Farryn]

Even though Michael isn't going to look at this post again I'd like to reply to what he wrote about my reason for writing it:

I definitely WAS looking for advice. I was wondering if my feelings were wrong and I was open to any opinion that could have changed my feelings. In fact, I was hoping that my feelings could change because I wanted my relationship to work.

I tried to apply many of the opinions that I read in this post to my relationship. I asked him more questions about his reasons for watching porn than I would have if I hadn't posted (then tried to be comfortable with his reasons); I tried to see that my feelings about porn were more about me than about him (which is true, but I discovered now that I have a right to those feelings).

So, I tried. I really did. I didn't disregard the replies that were contrary to how I felt. I appreciated all of the replies, even the ones that upset me. In fact, the ones that upset me challenged my feelings on the subject and helped me figure myself out.

In the end though, all of the opinions that I tried to apply failed in changing how I felt about the subject. I discoved that I have to honor and respect my own feelings and stop trying to be someone that I'm not (thank you very much to everyone for helping me get here). Therefore, since discovering the above, I stand by what I wrote:

"The bottom line though is that everyone has to follow their own instincts. I appreciate the discussion, but there isn't any one opinion that could have made me feel okay about my boyfriend watching porn [which I discovered only AFTER trying to apply and realize the opinions in this post]"

On another note, Sally, thank you again. Your posts mirror the true voice in me that I often try to ignore, and for that, I am forever greatful. I often feel shame for feeling anything other than happiness, so I thank you for confirming that my feelings are allowed. I should start to use my feelings to guide me to a happier life rather than try to suppress them.

All the best!!

Farryn

[Farryn]

Good suggestion, by the way!

We did do that. It was a lot of fun. The only problem now is that he has it and I don't!! (Not that I'd want to watch it, I'd just want to make sure it was destroyed!! Hahah)

[Michael Chui]

Bah. It took me five minutes of poking through the entire thread to realize I wasn't the one being addressed. *poke Farryn* Michael is the archangel; Matthew is just a Gospel writer.

[Farryn]

Haha! Oops!! Sorry Michael! I should pay more attention to whom I'm addressing in my replies!! And you're right, I meant Matthew

[Narz]

Originally Posted by Farryn

Good suggestion, by the way!

We did do that. It was a lot of fun. The only problem now is that he has it and I don't!! (Not that I'd want to watch it, I'd just want to make sure it was destroyed!! Hahah)

Ok, sorry if you mentioned it and I missed it (I only skimmed).

And good luck finding a new guy who spends all his sexual energy on you.

[sallyfrieldam]

Hi Farryn

Its lovely of you to say thanks. I'm just glad you felt i was of some help. You have shown great strength, intelligence and compassion in your response to the situation with your boyfriend and also the people in this thread. Combined with your true voice inside of you, I feel you have a truly winning combination

If you had decided that you were happy with the porn, i would have been happy for you. This wasnt about porn, it was about you and that your feelings are important and they do matter. I just wanted you to reach a decision that was right for you.

So, good luck and best wishes for the future!

[sallyfrieldam]

Hi velvet

You wrote...

"If my boyfriend ever held me to that standard, man, I'd be an adulterer of
fearsome magnitude. "

It sounds like your boyfriend is happy with you thinking about other people, therefore you are not an adulterer. I am sure you will always be able to find people who like you fantasizing about being sexual with other people so you need never be an adulterer. If you are happy with this arrangement I am happy for you.

You also wrote...
"As for your boyfriend's claim that after 6 years he only thinks of you when he masturbates--I'm sorry, but with all due respect, just reading that makes me uncomfortable. Not only do I not believe it, but I think it's a very unfair thing to require from a partner."

My boyfriend is happy I only think of him, is he asking an unfair thing of me too?

It was not something we sat down and consciously decided, we just naturally became sexually exclusive, does this still make it unfair to the both of us?

We are both happy with our arrangement, does that mean we are both doing something really bad?

I only masturbate to the thought of my boyfriend. With all your due respects do you not believe me either?

My choices do not affect you, what I do with my life makes no difference to yours, so why does something that doesn’t affect you make you feel uncomfortable?

You think something different to me, yet your choices don’t make me feel uncomfortable, so it is possible to live in a varied world and feel comfortable with the different choices people make. Just as long as we are not harming other people why not live and let live?

You also wrote ...

"Sally, you're obsessed with porn! Rrrowr!"
In relation to the studies on violence and porn. I am not obsessed. The studies were compiled on a different website, I just quoted them. If the suffering of others has struck a chord with you there are lots more people represented in studies if you want to look into it and help others.

[Narz]

I never understood why people masturbate in a realtionship at all (if they live together). Sex is so much better.

Then again I've never been with a girl who had a lower sex drive than me so the need has never arisen.