The big lie about Physical Attractiveness

[roxyruby]

I think that what we see as physical attractiveness is a learned thing. It is because of the messages associated with particular images we grew up with.

Yes this means a young curvy shaped blonde haired lady can be very ugly and plain to someone while an old 200kg lady with glasses, short curly grey hair, a body of similar shape to a man, and with red dots all over her body can be the most cutest and beautiful lady in the world.

Ofcourse, most people could not even Imagine seeing things this way. That's because you have never seen any sexy or beautiful descriptions or messages or labels about the last lady I mentioned.

Think about it!!! Here is a video I made for my unhappy girl friend who is a young mother.

YouTube - Pregnancy & after birth Inspiration

A reply to the video and my reply to the reply:

gothybatsandrainbows
This video is horrible. I can't believe how many women think it's "okay" and "natural" to let themselves go after pregnancy. Ugh, some of these pictures made me sick! Obesity is unhealthy for moms and babies alike. Yes, I AM a mom... living proof that this does NOT EVER NEED TO HAPPEN. Please ladies, don't throw yourselves away to stupid gluttony... not only is it hideous to look at, but it's bad for your health, and teaches your kids bad eating habits.

gothybatsandrainbows I don't think you understood my message. Its ok if you don't but thought I would explain more. Obesity is unhealthy, so is anorexia, smoking cigarettes, and drinking alcohol. But while they are getting healthier they can have good self esteem and feel gorgeous just as they are. You say someone is hideous to look at, but most people have grown up conditioned as to what is beautiful. Maybe, just maybe, beauty is a subjective thing. Think about it

[SimonaRich]

I disagree with you. Body fitness shows that a person is healthy and that attracts other people to such person.

If the person is overweight and does not look after him/herself, it always shows that a person is careless and is suffering from the lack of hygiene. That always repels people.

[Lauxa]

It seems like there are shared experiences of beauty that appeal to all people -- sunrises, sunsets, waterfalls, gardens, forests. There are studies that show that more symmetrical people are rated as more attractive, and also that women in certain proportions are rated as more attractive (bust:waist:hips ratio).

Beauty could all be cultural, but there could be evolutionary "hard-wired" components as well. For instance, if a woman's belly is too large compared to hips, that could be a signal of pregnancy. Also a body that is not well taken care of could be a symbol of low social status. Social conditioning could change what body types are symbolic of higher or lower status, but the desire for high status may be an evolved trait.

[garentee]

beauty comes from with in. I know plenty of beautiful people who are full of toxic feelings about themselves. One of the most recent girls that I have dated is quite physically attractive. One morning while we were eating breakfast she was sharing something that was going on in her life and the toxic feelings she had about that and her self etc ate through the attractive exterior. She is still a very attractive woman and her beauty shines through all that, but it absolutely amazed me to no end how I could see the toxicity she had on the inside show right through and made her less attractive. If you think you are ugly its because your thoughts are ugly. We all have the ability to be beautiful people to ourselves and others.. Loving yourself shines through the same way as hating yourself does.. and people pick up on that...

[cylon]

I think people have their own inherent worth, so if they physically let themselves go it's not like they are lesser people or "ugly" in the cosmic sense.

But I don't think they should "expect" to be perceived as physically attractive.

[rawxstasy]

I appreciate what you are doing for your girlfriend.

I think it is hardwired into our brains to. I was overweight for about 10 years. ( I still have a few more pounds to lose) Even when I was overweight, I felt like I had good self esteem and loved who I was in spite of how I looked on the outside. However, the rest of society did not see me that way. I was quite angry about this for awhile. I realized though that I am also attracted to men who are athletic and slim so why should I expect anything else out of other people? However, there is alot of weight discrimination that goes on in this society. When I got down to 145 from 186 the difference in the way (especially men) treated me was amazing. It went from doors slamming in my face ( going into a store) to the guys holding the door open, patiently waiting for me to walk by.

The saddest example, I worked at a supermarket for over a year and shortly after I had lost 40 pounds on three different occasions a coworker (male) would ask, "so how long have you been working here?" me, "a year", them, "a year? how come I never noticed you before?" me "maybe cause I was 40 pounds overweight." True story.

[timothydrake]

I say "good" for the people who don't care about weight in a person. I on the other hand love physically attractive women. I personally see overweight people as sloths, and gluttonous. I really don't care what their backstory is on why they are overweight. That is my judgement on why they are overweight. My life experience has taught me that 90% of the time it is that way.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I agree that physical attractiveness is primarily a social construct. While there are common attributes that many cultures find attractive, there are very different ideas of beauty across different cultures and time periods.

It is true that being overweight is unhealthy. That does not necessarily, however mean the person is physically unattractive. I understand that many people associate being overweight with an unhealthly lifestyle, which they find unattractive. That isn't the same, however, a the person being physically unattractive.

I think that too many people try to lose weight so they will be considered attractive, instead of to improve their health. While it is good that they are trying to lose weight, I think it would be much better to do it for the "right" reasons. The idea of beauty most common in our society seems out of reach for many people. This has a negative impact to their self-esteem, and often causes health problems due the use of extreme diets, dangerous diet drugs or unnecessary surgery. If the "attractiveness" issue weren't there, and the people were losing weight for their health instead I believe the negative impacts would be less.

The treatment that rawxstasy mentioned is another negative impact of the way our society views beauty. It is unfortunate that we live in a world in which people who need to lose weight are treated this way. It seems that more people would find the will-power to lose weight if their self esteem weren't being trashed by people who think they are "hideous".

[AGBourne]

Haha, whatever man.

I don't find any of that attractive. Making a video to change my mind or someone else's is tough to do.

If you find that attractive, great. I got nothing against it.

But, society didn't just tell me I shouldn't find these women attractive. My eyes and my gut did.

[RT Wolf]

^ Too bad your eyes and gut change based on where in the wrold you are and what era you were born in. Check out the attractive girls of a few hundred years ago, the portraits show plump girls. That was sign of health back then because not everyone had enough to eat so being curvy showed you were healthy, rather than being trim as it is now which still indicates health...to a degree.

To whoever, be careful of blaming people who are fat for their own condition. Some people do indeed are genetically predisposed to being big...however it is still upto them to be healthy. It's a body type, actually, endomorph I think.

[roxyruby]

Really?
I find curvy girls more beautiful than those that are fit, and thin and body is really healthy.

Perhaps it depends upon the slightly diffferent messages we grew up with, our own preferences etc.

But how can we say, this is objectively beautiful, and this is objectively ugly, when you are saying this overwieght person is hideous, and I am saying they are cute and gorgeous?

Either one of us is lieing and secretly agrees with the other, or there is no such thing as objective beauty and ugliness!!!!

If you grew up in one part of the world where there was an ice age, you would have been drooling over fat chicks. I'm guessing this from the only figurines of women from this time were females with a lot of fat on their bodies. It didn't matter what their face looked like either, as long as they had a lot of fat on their body.
You might find it hard to believe, but in the future, people will think you're crazy for finding the current ideal beauty beautiful.

Even in the 1600's, I found this map of the world from then, reprinted I suppose.
All the images of women? They were not thin, they were "normal" weight, today we might call it chubby. And I noticed, their arms were muscular and like a man's. Not huge, but masculine arms, but with petite feminine hands.
So this was the ideal beauty back then.

Beauty tends to be what most people have trouble attaining.

In africa there is surgery for women to have bottom implants to make their bottom bigger. That is what attracts the men there.
This is while in other places around the world, women are desperately doing butt exercises to make their bottom tiny.

As I said, yes, being overweight is unhealthy, but they have the right to feel gorgeous as they are. And how great it would be if there was more people that thought that look is cute and gorgeous or beautiful and sexy.

Maybe you call them hideous to motivate them to get healthier, but how would you feel if you were only told you were hideous?

It's not an objective phrase, and it is a hurtful thing to say.

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by RT Wolf

^ Too bad your eyes and gut change based on where in the wrold you are and what era you were born in. Check out the attractive girls of a few hundred years ago, the portraits show plump girls. That was sign of health back then because not everyone had enough to eat so being curvy showed you were healthy, rather than being trim as it is now which still indicates health...to a degree.

To whoever, be careful of blaming people who are fat for their own condition. Some people do indeed are genetically predisposed to being big...however it is still upto them to be healthy. It's a body type, actually, endomorph I think.

kudos to you RT Wolf!!! I like what you say. Thankyou

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by timothydrake

I say "good" for the people who don't care about weight in a person. I on the other hand love physically attractive women. I personally see overweight people as sloths, and gluttonous. I really don't care what their backstory is on why they are overweight. That is my judgement on why they are overweight. My life experience has taught me that 90% of the time it is that way.

Thats fine to have that opinion, however are overweight people really sloths, gluttonous?

Perhaps you are attracting this view of them?

I know an overwieght woman who is very hardworking in her shop. I think I have seen her eat fish and chips once, but she was eating like a normal person, apart from that, no I have never seen her snacking or eating, definitly nothing gluttenous.

I guess all the overwieght people I have seen, seemed to be eating like a normal person. They were graceful and kind, interesting and funny, just as appealing as any person with less fat on their body.

Are their thin people who are gluttonous sloths? And there are probably overwieght people who have a healthy lifestyle, perhaps they just aren't doing the right thing, or are attracting their condition or have some pyschological problem.

Maybe don't judge until you have had the problem of being overwieght or have found out more about them

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by SimonaRich

I disagree with you. Body fitness shows that a person is healthy and that attracts other people to such person.

If the person is overweight and does not look after him/herself, it always shows that a person is careless and is suffering from the lack of hygiene. That always repels people.

Really? Always repels people? What if there are people that have a fetish for careless people who are suffering from a lack of hygiene? Who know's , there are lots of strange fetish's that people can have.

This can also apply to what I was saying. There have never been any messages implying careless unhygienic people are sexy and beautiful as we were growing up, so how can our mind ever see them as that if we haven't questioned the messages about ugliness/attractiveness that we grew up with.

Ofcourse this may sound really over the top and silly, and being careless and unhygienic is not a good thing, but remember personal opinions about the attractiveness or ugliness of these people I believe are subjective.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by RT Wolf

^ Too bad your eyes and gut change based on where in the wrold you are and what era you were born in. Check out the attractive girls of a few hundred years ago, the portraits show plump girls.

Absolutely. I even found some interesting comments in old novels. For example: "She was tall and thin, but she was good at hiding those flaws by wearing clothes which made her appear fatter."

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by timothydrake

I personally see overweight people as sloths, and gluttonous. I really don't care what their backstory is on why they are overweight. That is my judgement on why they are overweight. My life experience has taught me that 90% of the time it is that way.

Of course. Your reality will always confirm your beliefs. That is its very nature.

Originally Posted by roxyruby

As I said, yes, being overweight is unhealthy, but they have the right to feel gorgeous as they are.

Thank you.

[pyrogen]

Beauty is cultural.

Google +obesity +Morocco +women and prove me wrong. Among some groups in Morocco, obesity is considered such the ideal for women that "fatorexia" is as much an issue for women there as anorexia is here.

The San peoples prefer women with large rear ends.

The Tuareg see nothing sexual about breasts, breasts are just baby bottles to them. The bottom is the focus of female sexual attractiveness, not the bust.

Among the Wodaabe people it is the *men* who compete with each other for who is the most beautiful (white teeth and large, bright eyes are preferred), they wear makeup to emphasize these features and they are chosen as husbands by the women, in what is basically a beauty and talent pageant.

BEAUTY IS CULTURAL.

We are all lemmings. We follow whatever messages are being transmitted around us, and think that we're original thinkers. And we can think of all kinds of reasons to justify our thinking.

[Some Random Loser]

On a biological level, or perhaps energetic level, we are instinctually attracted to those with certain genes, or energies, based on our own genes, or energies. What makes a good mating for one person, may not be so for the other. This happens at a brain stem level, it's like breathing or the heart pumping blood.

There's actually a wonderful text on this subject called "Sexual Dynamics." Really, it's a no brainer if you think about it.

- Mr. Brain Stem signing off

[dice]

its an evolutionary thing.

Animals will ignore potential mates if they appear unkempt, dirty, fat - and they don't read magazines.

Its great if someone is overweight/curvy if that's their genetic predisposition. All the power to them.

Overconsumption in general is something people should be careful and very aware of - it tends to be merely a side effect of something more serious.

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by dice

its an evolutionary thing.

Animals will ignore potential mates if they appear unkempt, dirty, fat - and they don't read magazines.

Its great if someone is overweight/curvy if that's their genetic predisposition. All the power to them.

Overconsumption in general is something people should be careful and very aware of - it tends to be merely a side effect of something more serious.

Animals will ignore potential mates if they appear unkempt, dirty, fat?


what about vultures or some predator that gets blood on itself. In mating season what does the mate do? Wait until they clean themself?

do animals really care if their potential mate is dirty and fat and unkept?



And yes overconsumption is not healthy and yes often there is deeper causes i think.

[roxyruby]

I think some might have been saying something about how overweight people are unattractive because of their unhealthy lifestyle.

But what about models who drink alot of alcohol and use a lot of drugs? That is Very dangerous and unhealthy, they could die a lot faster doing that than someone who over-consumes.

But these models are considered the ideal of beauty, how we "aim" to look.

Although that said, these people might say if they knew that about the model, the model may become unattractive to them.

Anyway, many overweight people therefore have a healthier lifestyle than some gorgeous thin, fit, models (that engage in the drugs and alcohol).

[roxyruby]

I was discussing this issue with my boyfriend, and he told me this:

One time on the radio there was a discussion about Pamela Anderson. Guys were saying she was the hottest woman in the world.

Then some guys were ringing up saying no-way, she is HIDEOUS and ugly because her body is so fake, things like that.

So we have one woman, some see as the most beautiful woman in the world, and some are seeing as hideous and ugly!!!!!!

Beauty really is not as fixed as you think, its just because you are used to receiving sexual and beauty messages about that one look, the "ideal" and none about all the other varieties of appearances which you may be used to seeing messages applied to them saying "normal" or "ugly".

[RT Wolf]

You've got a point about the super thin models. Studies indicate that women routinely overestimate the "ideal" weight that guys are attracted to. Most guys are attracted to "normal" women, which is heavier than most women think guys are attracted to. I personally dislike rail thin models. Often that "ideal" weight is ridiculosuly unhealthy and then some women berate themselves for not hitting it.

And yes, beauty is pretty much in the eye of the beholder. Beauty is not an intrinsic property of...anything, it's our consciousness that perceives it as such. And as such, there's different tastes and standards. Women in china are/were considered beautiful for having small feet...so that led to foot binding. I dunno about you, but I cannot stomach finding that attractive at all.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by roxyruby

I think some might have been saying something about how overweight people are unattractive because of their unhealthy lifestyle.

I agree with you, roxyruby, and I'd like to stress that overweight people don't necessarily have an unhealthy lifestyle. Sure some have, without any doubt, just like some thin people have an unhealthy lifestyle too. But I don't think we can claim that overweight people in general lead an unhealthier life than thin people.

I guess I can safely say that my lifestyle is very healthy, yet I am overweight. Now on a raw vegan diet I lose weight, but even before that, when I was eating cooked foods, my lifestyle already was much healthier than that of many of my thin friends. Including, yes you won't believe it, daily exercise!

It was very frustrating for me to see other people drink alcohol, eat pizza daily, and never exercise, and not put on any weight, whereas for me every tiny slice of bread wandered directly to my hips.

I don't believe that overweight people are overweight because they are gluttonous or lazy. I believe they are overweight because without being aware of it they eat things that aren't appropriate food for them. For example, I was eating grains and similar cooked starches, which is no appropriate food for me personally. It took me years to find out.

Sometimes (but not always) those inappropriate foods can lead to overeating because the body doesn't get what it truly needs, which leads to cravings and an incontrolable urge to eat more - which is in itself a healthy mechanism. It's just our food choices that are poor.

Judging overweight people as lazy, gluttonous, out of control, unhealthy, etc. suggests the problem is some flaw in their character - when what they truly need simply is more awareness about the effect food has on them. Berating them and calling them ugly just contributes to making them feel bad about themselves and doesn't help them to educate themselves about food.

It's so much easier to learn in a loving environment.

Next time you despise a fat person, think of that.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by timothydrake

I say "good" for the people who don't care about weight in a person. I on the other hand love physically attractive women. I personally see overweight people as sloths, and gluttonous. I really don't care what their backstory is on why they are overweight. That is my judgement on why they are overweight. My life experience has taught me that 90% of the time it is that way.

I am happy to stand up right now and admit I am as lazy and gluttonous as they come. I love to cook, love pasta and butter and bread and delicious sauces, and glasses of wine and chocolate. And I barely do a lick of exercise, apart from walking my (small) dog (usually to the local cafe) and a bit of very unstrenous yoga.

I am, however, slim and always have been: 5'8" and 120 pounds. God knows where it all goes to. My mother is just the same so I guess it's genetics.

I put it to you, Timothy Drake, that you don't hate 'sloth and gluttony' - just when it seems to correlate with a body type you don't find attractive. If you were dating me, you'd barely notice that I don't exercise, and you'd be charmed by the feasts I prepare. You'd probably even boast to your friends that I can eat anything and not put on weight, or call me 'Hollow Legs' or some other cute nickname, like boyfriends of mine have done.

People do seem to like to group what they perceive as positive traits together, and negative traits together, even when they're not based in reality.

[dice]

Originally Posted by roxyruby

Animals will ignore potential mates if they appear unkempt, dirty, fat?


what about vultures or some predator that gets blood on itself. In mating season what does the mate do? Wait until they clean themself?

do animals really care if their potential mate is dirty and fat and unkept?



And yes overconsumption is not healthy and yes often there is deeper causes i think.

absolutely. eg. rabbits and birds and chimps constantly preen and grooming each other. They have standards too, even higher ones in a lot of cases. Their instinct is to produce healthy offspring that will survive and extend their lineage - to do that you need a pretty schnazzy and self-respecting mate.

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by dice

absolutely. eg. rabbits and birds and chimps constantly preen and grooming each other. They have standards too, even higher ones in a lot of cases. Their instinct is to produce healthy offspring that will survive and extend their lineage - to do that you need a pretty schnazzy and self-respecting mate.

Oh I forgot about that! Yes animals do groom themselves alot

but high standards for themselves??? or just to help keep mites, fleas and bacteria and virus's off their body?

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by roxyruby

Oh I forgot about that! Yes animals do groom themselves alot

but high standards for themselves??? or just to help keep mites, fleas and bacteria and virus's off their body?

I guess its the same thing anyway! "High standards or just keeping fleas and bacteria off"

I guess you could see it as the same thing lol

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

I agree with you, roxyruby, and I'd like to stress that overweight people don't necessarily have an unhealthy lifestyle. Sure some have, without any doubt, just like some thin people have an unhealthy lifestyle too. But I don't think we can claim that overweight people in general lead an unhealthier life than thin people.

I guess I can safely say that my lifestyle is very healthy, yet I am overweight. Now on a raw vegan diet I lose weight, but even before that, when I was eating cooked foods, my lifestyle already was much healthier than that of many of my thin friends. Including, yes you won't believe it, daily exercise!

It was very frustrating for me to see other people drink alcohol, eat pizza daily, and never exercise, and not put on any weight, whereas for me every tiny slice of bread wandered directly to my hips.

I don't believe that overweight people are overweight because they are gluttonous or lazy. I believe they are overweight because without being aware of it they eat things that aren't appropriate food for them. For example, I was eating grains and similar cooked starches, which is no appropriate food for me personally. It took me years to find out.

Sometimes (but not always) those inappropriate foods can lead to overeating because the body doesn't get what it truly needs, which leads to cravings and an incontrolable urge to eat more - which is in itself a healthy mechanism. It's just our food choices that are poor.

Judging overweight people as lazy, gluttonous, out of control, unhealthy, etc. suggests the problem is some flaw in their character - when what they truly need simply is more awareness about the effect food has on them. Berating them and calling them ugly just contributes to making them feel bad about themselves and doesn't help them to educate themselves about food.

It's so much easier to learn in a loving environment.

Next time you despise a fat person, think of that.

Thank you Rose

I like what you say!

If you do want to loose weight this book "the beck diet solution" might help - it's no normal book, and focuses on the typical thoughts of people that have trouble with food, its like cognitive behavioral therapy (the right thoughts can change our behaviour)

maybe also you are used to being where you are, it is a comfortable place for you. Even frustration can be a comfortable place if we get used to it!

Anyway perhaps experiment with visualization and experiencing being thinner as normal for you, or being able to eat food and it goes straight through without adding weight around your body.

Whatever it is that you want anyway.

Got no doubt you're a beautiful lady and perfect as you are

[Some Random Loser]

To quote a famous country song

"I'm a dog, and my girlfriend has fleas"