A chick is bizarrely fascinated by PUAs

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cylon

Anyway, now we're at the point where the women say "well cylon, if you are not at the level you'd like to be with women, clearly, everything you have ever said is false. Not only is it false, but the literal, actual opposite of what you say, is true."

Who has said anything about false or true, or perfection for that matter, other than yourself?

Who, precisely, are the "women" who say "well, cylon... if you are not at the level you'd like to be....."

What any of us say may be true or false, perfect or imperfect, and how is that important, really? They have nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

You're not getting upset, are you?

[cylon]

Originally Posted by fitx3

I wonder if there is a correlation between how generous a man is at the introduction point of a relationship, i.e. buying a woman a drink, to how generous he is in bed. Hmmmmmm.

I don't know, ask all the girls who date the guy they keep calling a jerk all the time.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Angela

Who, precisely, are the "women" who say "well, cylon... if you are not at the level you'd like to be....."

Well first it was fitx3, saying that I was contradicting myself,and then it was you, saying that if I didn't have a perfect love life, then I wasn't speaking with authority.

This thread is officially de-railed.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cylon

This is what works.

If it works, it works. That's what I was getting at. If you feel comfortable trusting in what you're doing and being patient about getting the results you want, then that answers my question.

I'm glad you clarified because I got the impression that after knowing me better than most people on this forum, you were trying to hit me where it hurts in order to make a point.

Ai chihuahua. Cylon, I WANT you to get the results you want, haven't you figured that out? Have you not noticed that I ask these kinds of questions -- is what you're doing working? -- of almost everyone?

Same thing for pyrogen. In my experience, using manipulative (for a win/lose result) or inauthentic tactics just doesn't work well for me, and I find The Rules (as well as some approaches that some PUA's use) to be both win/lose and inauthentic. The PUAs who have results that I would want to have are people who put aside tactics and show up authentically and highly present in their interactions -- maybe they have a few tricks up their sleeve for being what they want to see in their life, like being confident and being engaging and taking on physiology and language that feels good to self and others, but they're not shooting for Power Over. Same goes for women who want to be more effective in romance and sex.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cylon

Well first it was fitx3, saying that I was contradicting myself,and then it was you, saying that if I didn't have a perfect love life, then I wasn't speaking with authority.

I don't know about fitx3, but I never said that if you don't have a perfect love life, then you're not speaking with authority. You seem to have perfection on the brain, but if you think I said anything about it, you are hallucinating.

I did say that if a person is getting the results he wants in life, and he talks about how what he's doing actually works in getting those results, then that person is speaking with power and authority. If a person insists that she's right about how to get desirable results, and she is not getting the results she wants, would you see a whole lot of power and authority in her speech? I wouldn't. She may be right, but it's not likely she's going to be very motivating or inspirational if her beliefs and her behavior are not congruent.

[cylon]

Again, this has worked for me, better, than anything else. It took me a while to actually accept that women respond better to not getting what they say they want. I'll just let that be the "overarching theme" to what I've been saying. And pyrogen has confirmed it, other women have confirmed it, it's been confirmed in my experience.

So I'm fine with that, I'm probably not doing myself any good by defending a belief I already know to be true. This is how I see things, no need to convince others to see things my way. I don't need women to change their ways, and I don't need to be the defender of all men, and I don't need to make anyone else feel bad for what they may or may not do, which I have done plenty of in this thread.

[fitx3]

Originally Posted by Angela

I don't know about fitx3, but I never said that if you don't have a perfect love life, then you're not speaking with authority. You seem to have perfection on the brain, but if you think I said anything about it, you are hallucinating.

I did say that if a person is getting the results he wants in life, and he talks about how what he's doing actually works in getting those results, then that person is speaking with power and authority. If a person insists that she's right about how to get desirable results, and she is not getting the results she wants, would you see a whole lot of power and authority in her speech? I wouldn't. She may be right, but it's not likely she's going to be very motivating or inspirational if her beliefs and her behavior are not congruent.

This pretty much states my point as well, hence the contradiction comment.

A happy Sunday to you all-
Fit

[cylon]

Originally Posted by fitx3

This pretty much states my point as well, hence the contradiction comment.

You're right, all men should buy drinks and pay for a woman, all the time. What was I thinking?

Not only am I wrong, but the exact opposite of what I say, is true.

Anyway, I'm glad you are so pleased with yourself.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Angela

She may be right, but it's not likely she's going to be very motivating or inspirational if her beliefs and her behavior are not congruent.

(or he may be right). I'm going to have to settle for being right. I can't be responsible for motivating others. As far as I'm concerned, my beliefs and behavior are congruent. When I am active with women, this is what works. When I'm not...... it's still working.

Anyway, dead horse has been beaten to death enough times.

[fitx3]

Now you just sound childish. I never once said a man should buy drinks and pay for a woman all the time. Never.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by fitx3

Now you just sound childish. I never once said a man should buy drinks and pay for a woman all the time. Never.

Wait, I thought you left and wished me a good Sunday.

Doesn't matter. Have the guy buy you drinks, I'm not sure why I even got caught up with this in retrospect. If he wants to buy you a drink, he should buy you a drink. If it gives him pleasure, more power to him.

I am now wishing that every good looking guy you see buys you a drink.

[fitx3]

Thank you so much Cylon! You are quite the spitfire. It's been fun........

[cylon]

As long as no one gets hurt. No one get hurt in these online discussions!

[Angela]

You know, we've been talking a lot about cylon's approach, but I don't think it's off-topic from pyrogen's original post. It's all related: is what you're doing getting you what you want? Is it really what you want?

I think a person might be really well served by boldly looking at what his/her heart's desire. Am I totally satisfied, fulfilled, and joyful having one-night or short-term encounters, or would I really prefer to have something else, like connection, joy, generosity, and love? Am I looking for marriage at the expense of real authentic relating? What's really important to me right now?

If you are relating to a woman as if she is "Women" (or a man as if he is "Men") as you believe "Women" or "Men" to BE as a reality, then you are robbing yourself of flexibility in responding and relating to the woman or man who is front of you. You are relating only to your own beliefs about who (s)he is, not to the actual person. This approach works well if you're interested in only relating inside your own head. But if you want to have authentic relationship, I think it works much better to let go of all your hard-won beliefs about what is a man or what is a woman, and be really present and accepting with the person who stands before you.

Personally, I prefer not to have drinks involved at all in the process, because it just enhances hallucination and it diminishes the power of your authentic body-response to the person, and your ability to trust it.

And I think that 5 minutes may be enough for your conscious mind to register whether or not you'd like to be romantically or sexually involved with this person, or whether he's a potential Mr. Right, but when you're focusing on making that evaluation, you're also killing off your ability to really accept and be present with the person. If you widen your acceptance perception, you're able to both make that evaluation AND be really present and authentically relate, and it takes a lot of the pressure off you both -- there's no win/lose involved in that kind of encounter. If you're in a hurry to get laid or into a "relationship", I can see where you might get impatient with this approach. And if you'd like to have everything you dream of in a relationship, including love, connection, generosity, peace, joy, or whatever else, you might want to try letting go of everything you think you know about what men or women ARE. (You could still accomplish all that in 5 minutes, by the way, cylon. But it would mean opening yourself up to much more than just the evaluation of whether or not she likes you or is available to you.)

It has nothing to do with buying drinks or having someone pay for dinner, or waiting 3 days to call, or limiting your calls to 3 minutes, or or or.

It has everything to do with showing up, big and bold, and opening up your bandwidth.

[cylon]

I am interested in girls that are giving and generous and kind, not gold diggers or girls who just need attention to validate themselves. I've had enough experience with that. Now, I know ALL WOMEN are not like that. But since I know plenty ARE, what I need, is a way to distinguish, between the two. Everyone's time is valuable, including mine.

So I've learned ways to sift through that. Maybe I haven't perfected it, but I am looking for the diamond, not the rough around it. I am learning, like most people here.

One of the ways to distinguish between the two is to just take money out of the equation, COMPLETELY. Just get rid of it. In fact a lot of wealthy men, when meeting a woman, will lie about their jobs. They'll say they have a very low-income type job, just so they can weed out the girls looking for a meal ticket. And some brag about how much money they make, because they believe the only way a girl could ever like them is because of what he can do for her, not the type of person he is.

I do not take kindly to the idea that I am SUPPOSED to buy a drink, or pay for a date. Sorry, but that is not cool. Everyone has their own money. Some may say that's "masculine", I say it's being willingly taken advantage of.


(Although to be fair, I have to say, for ME at least, her buying her own drinks and food is not that big of a deal, at least in the beginning. A lot of women now are onto this and don't want to appear as gold diggers, so they gladly buy their own stuff. For a time.)


The part about how long to stay when first meeting someone, it goes down to supply and demand. We value that which is scarce, not that which comes to us easily. From many men's perspective, it doesn't look so great when you go out, start talking to the first attractive woman you see, and then make her your focal point for the entire evening. It looks desperate. She knows there are other women there. She knows you are looking.

And I believe that she wants to be the one that makes the biggest impression. When she sees that you aren't going to make her your reason for living, and works to earn you a little, in the end, she feels like she actually was the best girl there, and out of all the other options you had, you chose HER. So the girl feels special, and the guy feels good that he put a bit of planning in there and did his best to distinguish himself from the guys who would marry the girl right away, like the guys in the Pick Up Artist tv show. So in a way, they have both earned each other's admiration by showing that they have self-respect. And now they may have the beginnings of a relationship that is based on mutual respect. Which is a good thing.

So it's a guideline. The point is, be a little hard to get. Don't wear your heart on your sleeve. Make it more of a fun game instead of walking right into a serious relationship. That's all there is to it. The other stuff, is just guidelines to follow that sort of force you to follow through, because sometimes, you can work against yourself by being too interested, too early. When the "chase" is over, it's really over. And often, it's over before it's begun, simply because the guy didn't know when to walk away when he was ahead.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cylon

From many men's perspective, it doesn't look so great when you go out, start talking to the first attractive woman you see, and then make her your focal point for the entire evening. It looks desperate. She knows there are other women there. She knows you are looking.

The night Danger Man and I met, he immediately made me his focal point and stayed close to me the entire evening. He made it very clear that he was interested in finding out what he could about me and having me see the real him. It didn't look desperate to me or to anyone around us, I don't think. It looked like: body response, and a willingness to take a chance. It looked like courage, and it looked like fun. We didn't decide to be in a relationship that night; we simply chose to open up boldly to each other.

Once again, when you are married to your generalizations, you may miss out on something good, if it doesn't corelate to your expectations.

[cylon]

That's great. Sounds like he knew what he was doing, so I'm happy.

I'm not married to anything. I'm not rigid, they are guidelines, like I said a couple times already. I can't believe that out of my entire post, all you took from it was that I was married to my generalizations.

But anyway, you use your guidelines, then you deal with life, which is what happens while you're busy making plans. Things will come up and you will hit it off and time will stop and everything I am saying will be meaningless, and that's when you've found someone who is different and better than all the rest.

[Jasonv]

Originally Posted by Angela

Once again, when you are married to your generalizations, you may miss out on something good, if it doesn't corelate to your expectations.

It also seems like you're "married" to the idea of reframing him.

Although, I'm not necessarily taking his side. I get both your points. They are complementary not opposites.

When you meet a woman you're genuinely interested kick back and spend time with her. Buy her a drink, hell, buy her some nachos.

If you're only a little interested part ways after 5 minutes and maybe see if you connect better with her later.

Jesus Christ.....

[cylon]

Yes, flexibility.

[pyrogen]

Just thought I'd clarify something since there's as much misconception about The Rules and other 'chick tactics' books, as there is about PUA.

The Rules is NOT about making a man do anything he doesn't want to do. It's not about manipulating ANYTHING. It's about weeding out anyone who doesn't already have a high interest level, and who doesn't sustain the high interest level, and it's about pacing guys who are "blowtorching" (John Gray's terminology), who can quickly fall in love then just as quickly fall out. TR is NOT an active manipulation system, it's passive - we chuck anyone who isn't already displaying certain behaviors without our prompting.

TR is also a lot about "inner game" (being a Creature Unlike Any Other) and not needing someone so much we settle for crumbs/being treated poorly. We're guided a lot to get rid of nervous behaviors, and to start being happy with ourselves.

I'll address other stuff in this thread when I have time.

[supertom]

thankyou pyrogen for opening this and thankyou cylon for saying what I wanted to, can somebody make this into a sticky lols

[cylon]

Originally Posted by supertom

thankyou pyrogen for opening this and thankyou cylon for saying what I wanted to, can somebody make this into a sticky lols

Glad to say it for you.

[fitx3]

Originally Posted by Angela

The night Danger Man and I met, he immediately made me his focal point and stayed close to me the entire evening. He made it very clear that he was interested in finding out what he could about me and having me see the real him. It didn't look desperate to me or to anyone around us, I don't think. It looked like: body response, and a willingness to take a chance. It looked like courage, and it looked like fun. We didn't decide to be in a relationship that night; we simply chose to open up boldly to each other.
Once again, when you are married to your generalizations, you may miss out on something good, if it doesn't corelate to your expectations.

I'm just getting back home from my day's events and read the above. Everyone may have interpreted something different, but what I got from it is how two mature, non game playing people "hooked up." It's in the same way that my serious relationships developed. I was the "star" from the beginning as she appears to be above. Men aren't blind, they can look over a room and see what's there pretty quickly. A man who sees something he's interested in and goes for it is brave and I find that SO attractive. That's what makes a woman feel special. Perhaps it's an age thing as well as a confidence issue, I don't know, but I do know that all the men in my life have been decent, good men who were able to see things through good and bad. Again, I'm curious about the psychological health of these women who fall for these guys who play things so cool. I know I'd lose interest pretty quickly.

edit: just thought i would mention that the term "hook up" to me means the beginning of a relationship-

[cylon]

Damn, if the girls I attract are psychologically unhealthy... then what does that say about ME?

I must not be a decent man, unable to handle psychologically healthy girls.

I know you weren't talking about me in that post, but I really have to think about this now.

[Angela Leeds]

Originally Posted by dice

On the flip side I almost don't even notice guys hitting on girls anymore. it's like seeing pidgeons sitting on buildings - I'd be concerned if it wasn't happening.

LoL...yep. Cute.

[Angela Leeds]

Originally Posted by cylon

By getting her number. Saying it was nice to meet her. What I'm going to start hanging on her every word like 99.99999% in that bar hoping that she'll like ME?
That is plenty of time to make a first impression. More than enough. And I'm sure you know, lots of women humor men just for the hell of it. The idea is to step around that, completely.

If that's enuf to get a woman to give you her number, awesome. More power to you! To me, I'd be like..."Tch! I don't think so!" I mean, if it were otherwise, I'd be giving my number out all the time. You do realize that women are hit on all the time by men, right?

I don't believe in paying or renting a woman's attention. Any other form of that is illegal in most states.

There are other ways of looking at it. But I understand that element can come into play.

When I go out dancing, I have a strict rule of *never* allowing a man to buy a drink for me, unless it's known to be only a friendship, or he's already a romantic partner. Never ever...because if I let that happen, there's a feeling on the part of the guy that I owe him something, even if it's just my attention. And since I'm there to dance, and to dance with many partners, ithat one decision keeps me utterly free from sticky situations.

I find it a real turn-off when men force a drink into the situation and then think I owe them anything. So...you do have to navigate those waters intelligently. That's why I think if I were a guy, I'd view it simply as hospitality...the way a woman may cook for or feed visitors to her home. But...no strings.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Angela Leeds

When I go out dancing, u have a strict rule of *never* allowing a man to buy a drink for me, unless it's known to be only a friendship, or he's already a romantic partner. Never ever...because if I let that happen, there's a feeling on the part of the guy that I owe him something, even if it's just my attention. And since I'm there to dance, and to dance with many partners, ithat one decision keeps me utterly free from sticky situations.

I find it a real turn-off when men force a drink into the situation and then think I owe them anything. So...you do have to navigate those waters intelligently. That's why I think if I were a guy, I'd view it simply as hospitality...the way a woman may cook for or feed visitors to her home. But...no strings.

No strings. Just free drinks. Good deal for you, bad deal for me. Where in the world are you getting this notion of "hospitality"? For what? What did you do? This isn't my home. I don't own this bar/club/whatever. And most likely, I paid to get in, and you got in for free. And it's probably women's night where your drinks are free. And etc. And since YOU got in for free, and got free drinks because it lures guys like me in, the least you could do, is help a guy out, and buy ME a drink. Thanks. I did have to pay a cover charge you know.

And hey, about that dance. Here you are telling me I'm supposed to pay you undivided attention, but there you are dancing with all the guys in the club! That hurts me really bad inside. You're supposed to pay me undivided attention too right? Didn't that dance mean anything to you? Wasn't that officially "our song"?

You're going to proudly dance with multiple partners? After our dance? I feel so betrayed.

Just kidding. But I will take that drink now.

[Angela Leeds]

Originally Posted by cylon

How did you get the impression, that I would not be discussing those things? You projected a lot in that post, on how you think I behave...

I'm just going off of what you have described about your views & how you conduct yourself. Not projecting beyond that...just saying what it sounds like you are aligning yourself with. No offense meant...

Not buying a drink, and not hanging around like every other guy in the bar would, and suddenly, I need an overhaul. That's your perspective. My perspective is, I think it's good to be a bit of a challenge. Add a bit of mystery. And make the woman earn more time with me

See...that's a feminine thing. That's what I'm pointing out. But certainly that's cool...there are many, many women that match up well with that. "There's a lid for every pot."

It's feminine to buy a woman stuff in the hopes of getting her approval. It's weak.

If that's why a guy is doing it, I so agree.

It sounds like you've really encountered some greedy women, or identified in yourself the tendency to try to win approval with things, and so have made a course correction that works for you right now.

I'm just planting a seed here for what could come next on your path...there is also a lovely vibe of graciousness that can exist, for men in giving and women in receiving, without the stickiness.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Angela Leeds

See...that's a feminine thing. That's what I'm pointing out. But certainly that's cool...there are many, many women that match up well with that. "There's a lid for every pot."

I know you get a kick out of calling me feminine, but you never back your stuff up. You just say "that's feminine". I imagine you never say this to guys in the real world, or they would dump you on the spot.

Good luck finding your lid.

[Angela Leeds]

Originally Posted by cylon

I'm also noticing many personal comments coming my way. Looks like the conversation can't stay adult and mature from the perspective of the ladies here. Am I surprised?

II didn't have the impression this thread had veered into childish immaturity, just some harmless candor...

I have no sense of having attacked you personally, cylon. I've enjoyed chatting. With you. But sounds like I've offended you...I guess my playfulness may have come out wrong.

I love talking with guys, and when you're not each others' type, there's a different kind of relaxed candor about it.

I was hanging out earlier this evening with a very good male friend, and I brought up this thread with him. Made for some interesting conversation.