Is this true:

[seeker5]

The belief that I hate the most that others have about me is what I really hate that I believe about myself?

I've been noticing that lately in my life, especially in relationships. That when I feel that someone else believes something in me, and I absolutely hate it and it keeps running in my head...then when I sit down and think about it, in truth, it's something I myself believe about myself and hate about myself. That's not to say that the other person doesn't believe it as well, but if it bothers me a lot then it seems most likely to be something I believe about myself as well.

This would mean that relationships and situations with other people provide a great opportunities to discover things about yourself that you hate, so that then you can know what to address. So, this means, instead of running away (or fighting irrationally), you can stay and put yourself in a lot of situations so you can see what gets reflected, so you can see what you hate that people believe about you so you can face it, realize it's there, and then go and figure out how to overcome that belief or address it.

I dunno, I just felt like posting this, it's something I was thinking a lot today in looking over my relationships and that dawned on me so hard.

[Dan.Linehan]

It seems to make sense on its face, but I'm not sure what you mean exactly?

Why are you trying to figure out what people think about you so much?

[Dan.Linehan]

Let me put that another way.

I have certain goals right now. For instance, right now I want to earn more money and enjoy more financial independence. Both of those things can be achieved through a career shift.

So I am working towards a couple certifications that would improve my career outlooks.

Now, I would only worry about what someone thought about me if they stood between me and my certifications. Maybe a teacher, or a prospective employer.


So, my question is, why do people's beliefs about you hold any meaning to you? Are they holding you back from something?

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

So, my question is, why do people's beliefs about you hold any meaning to you? Are they holding you back from something?

Ah. Well, I was thinking of a situation I was in that was a romantic relationship.

It's not that they are holding me back, it's more that I've kept having these negative thoughts about what she believes about me and I started doing the works last night and I realized that those things she believed about me were things I believed about me. Then today I realized even more things that I believed that I actually agree, and that's why it would bothers me so much. And then talking to Aspiring about the things she believes about her boyfriend and how it's a reflection of what she believes about herself and she confirmed that so it was just further showing cementing my thinking on this.

So this made me think - not that she may not be right about what she believes about me, but if I didn't believe in them too and those beliefs didn't bother me, then it wouldn't bother me if she believed that too.

For example, to extrapolat that to work. If you feel you're a loser at a certain field (and you hate yourself for being such a loser at it instead of being accepting of being a newbie), and someone tells you you're a loser, then you're likely going resonate with that and get angry at the person. In truth, you're angry at them for showing the way you truly feel about yourself. Because if in truth you felt you were a winner and a great person in that field, then if they told you that you were a loser, it wouldn't resonate with you.

To me, I've tended to get away from people whom I felt would have these negative beliefs about me. This is showing me that no, the answer is not to run away from them, but to thank them (at least in my head) for making me aware of something I may have been avoiding. And if I already knew about it, then i can thank them for reminding me to do something about this negative self-belief. . Sometimes I get lazy and don't deal with a negative self-belief I need to work on, and getting reminded with a painful experience like that can be great to help me get off my butt and moving on it.

Does this make sense?

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Now, I would only worry about what someone thought about me if they stood between me and my certifications. Maybe a teacher, or a prospective employer.

Well, that's how to be. No doubt about it.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by seeker5

Ah. Well, I was thinking of a situation I was in that was a romantic relationship.

That makes sense. Relationship / romantic stuff can definitely play with your head, bigtime.

Originally Posted by seeker5

It's not that they are holding me back, it's more that I've kept having these negative thoughts about what she believes about me and I started doing the works last night and I realized that those things she believed about me were things I believed about me.

Sure. Insecurities basically.

Originally Posted by seeker5

Then today I realized even more things that I believed that I actually agree, and that's why it would bothers me so much. And then talking to Aspiring about the things she believes about her boyfriend and how it's a reflection of what she believes about herself and she confirmed that so it was just further showing cementing my thinking on this.

So even though she might not have been thinking any of that stuff at all, insecurities you are holding onto are still coming out. Nothing like a new relationship / crush / dating to do that.

Originally Posted by seeker5

For example, to extrapolat that to work. If you feel you're a loser at a certain field (and you hate yourself for being such a loser at it instead of being accepting of being a newbie), and someone tells you you're a loser, then you're likely going resonate with that and get angry at the person. In truth, you're angry at them for showing the way you truly feel about yourself. Because if in truth you felt you were a winner and a great person in that field, then if they told you that you were a loser, it wouldn't resonate with you.

Yep, exactly. In my experience people who are very outgoing and chipper at work usually get promoted faster for just that reason.

Originally Posted by seeker5

To me, I've tended to get away from people whom I felt would have these negative beliefs about me. This is showing me that no, the answer is not to run away from them, but to thank them (at least in my head) for making me aware of something I may have been avoiding. And if I already knew about it, then i can thank them for reminding me to do something about this negative self-belief. . Sometimes I get lazy and don't deal with a negative self-belief I need to work on, and getting reminded with a painful experience like that can be great to help me get off my butt and moving on it.

It depends if A: the beliefs are accurate and B: these are things that you are wanting to change about yourself?

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

That makes sense. Relationship / romantic stuff can definitely play with your head, bigtime.

Yeah, and it's a great way to expose issues about self-worth, self-love, your fears, and stuff.

So even though she might not have been thinking any of that stuff at all, insecurities you are holding onto are still coming out.

Yup yup.

Yep, exactly. In my experience people who are very outgoing and chipper at work usually get promoted faster for just that reason.

Ah, good point.

It depends if A: the beliefs are accurate

Hmmm yeah. Well in my case though, even if the beliefs are accurate, even if she believes that, I shouldn't let it affect me and hurt me so much unconsciously you know? For example, if someone feels I'm a complete loser, yes I should make the logical, rational decision to not associate with them if I find out they truly believe that. However, I shouldn't let it affect me emotionally and have it send so much pain throughout my whole body that I can't fall asleep, you know? Yes, maybe have the pain of having to separate from that person if it's someone I'm close to, but not the pain of what it means about who I am as a person, etc. That indication means I need to address this issue of being a loser, so the possibility that someone else may think that wouldn't affect me.

and B: these are things that you are wanting to change about yourself?

Yup.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by seeker5

For example, if someone feels I'm a complete loser, yes I should make the logical, rational decision to not associate with them if I find out they truly believe that. However, I shouldn't let it affect me emotionally and have it send so much pain throughout my whole body that I can't fall asleep, you know?

Sure. The main thing is knowing yourself that you've done things that make that belief (or fear / insecurity) not true.

Excelling at whatever your passion is: fitness, sports, education, business, etc. Doing your best in life. Supporting others when they need it. Having fun.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Sure. The main thing is knowing yourself that you've done things that make that belief (or fear / insecurity) not true.

Excelling at whatever your passion is: fitness, sports, education, business, etc. Doing your best in life. Supporting others when they need it. Having fun.

Yes, good point. Hmmm.

Oh, and doing Byron Katie's The Works help too .

Edit: I guess I'm more focused on the internal stuff, rather then doing things on the outside to affect how I am on the inside. For example, with the loser thing, even if I'm new at something and I suck completely at it, I should be ok with it - I shouldn't let myself feel like a loser at it, and I should accept my newbieness with full acceptance and knowledge I'll get better by focusing on it. That is, there should be no negative emotional resonance with this belief.

Edit2: Though, I assume that working on the outside and learning the skills, etc. would help too with those beliefs. However to me it seems you need to do both - work on the inside and on the outside, at least in my case.

[Honeywith4bees]

I most strongly notice that the things that bother me about other people, are the things I'm bothered about myself with.

For example, I always feel super critical of people who don't work and get "taken care of" instead. Like my boyfriends ex wife, she hasn't worked in five years, just living off her alimony, and it pisses me off. Or my ex husband, doesn't work just takes advantage of his grandmothers generosity. (See how I couldn't resist ranting about them! ) But in reality, I shouldn't expend any energy thinking about how others choose to live, I should just get to the heart of my own insecurities which lie in the fact that I believe that I am not "worthy" of being taken care of.

On another note,
In another thread Seeker, you mentioned staying out of relationships until you had worked on your own issues, I have to say that I don't agree with that for two reasons, one being that loving relationships are too important to put off until we are "fixed", and the other is that once you are in a relationship, it's pretty much a guarantee that new and surprising issues will surface!!

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by seeker5

So this made me think - not that she may not be right about what she believes about me, but if I didn't believe in them too and those beliefs didn't bother me, then it wouldn't bother me if she believed that too.

Exactly. What you're saying makes perfect sense, Seeker.

If someone believes about you that you have purple hair, or finds your purple hair unattractive, and you don't think purple hair is bad in any way, or you have no purple hair in the first place, then their beliefs about your purple hair wouldn't bother you, right? You'd probably just think they're weird.

But if you believe that you have purple hair, and you believe that having purple hair is ugly, and someone else also believes that you have purple hair, which is unattractive to them, then it would probably trigger your own negative beliefs about yourself and hurt you.

Sorry in case I'm being unclear. Love.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Honeywith4bees

I most strongly notice that the things that bother me about other people, are the things I'm bothered about myself with.

Yeah, I had noticed that too, and the idea that what people believe about me that bothers me is about what I believe about myself that really bothers me is an extension of that basic idea you wrote.

For example, I always feel super critical of people who don't work and get "taken care of" instead. Like my boyfriends ex wife, she hasn't worked in five years, just living off her alimony, and it pisses me off. Or my ex husband, doesn't work just takes advantage of his grandmothers generosity. (See how I couldn't resist ranting about them! ) But in reality, I shouldn't expend any energy thinking about how others choose to live, I should just get to the heart of my own insecurities which lie in the fact that I believe that I am not "worthy" of being taken care of.

Hehe . That's interesting, thanks for sharing with me

In another thread Seeker, you mentioned staying out of relationships until you had worked on your own issues, I have to say that I don't agree with that for two reasons, one being that loving relationships are too important to put off until we are "fixed", and the other is that once you are in a relationship, it's pretty much a guarantee that new and surprising issues will surface!!

You know, I'm coming to think you guys may be right. I originally was thinking I needed to get away from them for a while so I could think things on my own, and in a way that's been helpful to get a clearer head and analyze what was going on without being in the heat of the middle of it. However, at the same time I'm realizing too that unless I throw myself into these situations then these issues won't surface, and I won't have the motivation/focus to deal with it. I'll just spend my time doing something else. In a way, it's like walking away from the fire, and you go...hmmm, what was that about and go your merry way, but then you go back into the fire, and you realize, hey it's warm and I need to deal with it. At the same time though, you do need some time away from the fire to think and figure out what was going on you know and do some preparation. However refusing to put yourself into the fire until everything is great inside of you can be a forever experience.

I guess there's a balance to be dealt with here and I need to think about this some more. I think though I'm partly influenced by my limiting beliefs which tells me that when they pop up I need to get the hell away .

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

If someone believes about you that you have purple hair, or finds your purple hair unattractive, and you don't think purple hair is bad in any way, or you have no purple hair in the first place, then their beliefs about your purple hair wouldn't bother you, right? You'd probably just think they're weird.

But if you believe that you have purple hair, and you believe that having purple hair is ugly, and someone else also believes that you have purple hair, which is unattractive to them, then it would probably trigger your own negative beliefs about yourself and hurt you.

That's a great example. In my case, I'd have a problem with having purple hair, so if someone made a bad comment about it while I'm wearing the wig, it would strike inside of me emotionally and I'd feel hurt. But I have no problem with wearing brown hair, so if someone makes a nasty comment about how bad brown hair is on me, I'd just look at him like he's a strange person for making that comment. Interesting way to look at it thanks

Sorry in case I'm being unclear.

Nope, sorry, in this case you were perfectly clear

[The Cloud]

Anything that you believe is you, so your beliefs about other people's beliefs are still your beliefs. In fact, what they actually believe is totally irrelevant. It's all your beliefs.

Anything you believe is just an approximation of reality, anyways. There are no truly accurate beliefs, only relatively more useful ones. You give them too much importance.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

Anything that you believe is you, so your beliefs about other people's beliefs are still your beliefs. In fact, what they actually believe is totally irrelevant. It's all your beliefs.

That's an interesting viewpoint, Cloud, and I agree with you. I had a hard time wrapping my head around this one. I long thought that what others thought was relevant. It's difficult to detach from this idea and to realize that no matter what happens, it's all me.

Anything you believe is just an approximation of reality, anyways. There are no truly accurate beliefs, only relatively more useful ones. You give them too much importance.

I agree again. Instead of asking "Is this true?" or "Is this right?" we could ask "Is this en empowering belief?".

Thanks for reminding me! I needed to hear it again.

[jaamkie]

I very much agree with this, and I've consciously realized it with my manager and my boyfriend. My manager is very scattered and likes dynamic imaginative open-ended discussions, hates grinding through the details and verifying completeness. I'm exactly the same way, and I'm annoyed with both of us for continuing the dysfunctional relationship where neither of us take on documentation and review until it becomes a crisis. My boyfriend annoys me at times with his laziness- willingness to float around aimlessly doing nothing- annoys me precisely because I'm the same way, and trying to change- so when I'm struggling to go exercise or run errands or plan a fun activity and he is lazing around considering a snack and a nap, I feel like I'm fighting both my own laziness and his- I'm annoyed cos so often I cave and snuggle up with him rather than taking responsibility for my own actions. With both of these beliefs, I'm not sure what way to modify them- simply negating them is unconvincing, and I've yet to find a more empowering believable angle.

Also I think it is important to consider our own beliefs, because we are often subconsciously bound by them- when I'm procrastinating on an assigned task at work, if I stop to think about why, it is usually because subconsciously I believe I can't do it or that completing the task won't solve the underlying problem. Realizing that, I can figure out what help I need to get it done, or what particularly is wrong with the solution- and then I can address it with my team. If I flounder around trying to ignore my feelings and willpower myself into productivity, I find I'm actually wasting time that could be spent dealing with the issues behind the vaguely-felt uneasiness.

Sorry this isn't more directly relationship-y.... current relationship isn't flaring up that way very much right now (current biggest issue is annoyance with the time/money inefficiency of technically "living apart" but actually spending a lot of time together out of mutual preference; annoyance of each trying not to impinge on the other's decisions/privacy, trying not to "act married" when we're not, while really we both are open to input and both will be affected by the decisions)

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by jaamkie

Also I think it is important to consider our own beliefs, because we are often subconsciously bound by them- when I'm procrastinating on an assigned task at work, if I stop to think about why, it is usually because subconsciously I believe I can't do it or that completing the task won't solve the underlying problem. Realizing that, I can figure out what help I need to get it done, or what particularly is wrong with the solution- and then I can address it with my team. If I flounder around trying to ignore my feelings and willpower myself into productivity, I find I'm actually wasting time that could be spent dealing with the issues behind the vaguely-felt uneasiness.

You know that's very true with me too, and something I've really realized. I've had a tendency to try to bury away emotional pain that sometimes results from situations like this, or get rid of it partly because I feel I want to spend my time on other things. Yet, I've noticed now that when I try to bury or ignore it, then I become truly unproductive, and unwilling to do any productive work. So I've ended up wasting a huge amount of time and energy precisely because I didn't think I had the time or energy to deal with the emotional pain!

Because of this realization, I'm making a new rule now for my life. Anytime I notice an emotional pain or hit in me, after it washes away, as soon as possible, I'll go immediately examine it (via journaling) and see what I can learn from the message and then see how I can address it instead of burying it thinking I don't want to spend time on it. (I actually did that today, I was sitting fine in my class and then had a thought about the forum and boom, felt an emotional pain in my body. I didn't really know what it was or why it felt painful in me. After class I went to journal about it not knowing if I'd have the answer, but the answer came and it made sense! It's relate to some issues I'm current facing so I know I'm dealing with it instead of burying or ignoring it )

Sorry this isn't more directly relationship-y

No need to apologize, I appreciated your post

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

Anything that you believe is you, so your beliefs about other people's beliefs are still your beliefs. In fact, what they actually believe is totally irrelevant. It's all your beliefs.

Anything you believe is just an approximation of reality, anyways. There are no truly accurate beliefs, only relatively more useful ones. You give them too much importance.

I'm trying to wrap my head around what you're saying here.

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by seeker5

I'm trying to wrap my head around what you're saying here.

If you experience a belief, whose belief is it? Yours. When you say "Jack believes X," what you really mean is "I believe that Jack believes X." X is still your belief, which you've superimposed upon Jack. You can't know for sure if that is what Jack believes. Technically, Jack himself is your belief that the stimuli you associate with Jack are Jack. Jack doesn't actually exist, except as a belief that you are experiencing.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

If you experience a belief, whose belief is it? Yours. When you say "Jack believes X," what you really mean is "I believe that Jack believes X." X is still your belief, which you've superimposed upon Jack. You can't know for sure if that is what Jack believes. Technically, Jack himself is your belief that the stimuli you associate with Jack are Jack. Jack doesn't actually exist, except as a belief that you are experiencing.

OK, that seems to be a subset of what I thought you meant. That then makes total sense. Thanks . I agree then, when it comes to what we believe other people might believe, it's best to treat it as a belief that we can't know for absolute certainty so might as well choose an empowering belief. Now to implement that on an emotional level

[jaamkie]

Originally Posted by seeker5

OK, that seems to be a subset of what I thought you meant. That then makes total sense. Thanks . I agree then, when it comes to what we believe other people might believe, it's best to treat it as a belief that we can't know for absolute certainty so might as well choose an empowering belief. Now to implement that on an emotional level

mostly I agree with this, have for a long time- which is why I'll express a bit of "devil's advocate"...

I think we shouldn't throw out all care for "what we think others think", or to 100% always see our experiences with the belief we are the only consciousness in existence. It is absolutely true that as I sit here all I know, all I experience, is my own consciousness- I can never get beyond it to objectively "prove" anything exists, and as "intelligent design" explains, even if the scientific explanations are seamless and complete, we can always posit an intelligence/power outside who has created the perfect explanations. BUT, I think I'm better off spending most of my time accepting and experiencing the illusion, only occasionally coming up for perspective. To spend all my time cynically nihilistically focusing on the limits of my awareness would prevent me from emotionally connecting, and from learning the lessons I'm setting up for myself, attracting to myself. It is like how we only emotionally connect with a movie when we intentionally forget that the movie is a screen reflecting projected light in a dark room, a movie is a recording of actors reciting lines on a contrived set. I choose to pretend to know that others are as real/conscious as myself, that I can communicate/relate to them and generally empathize- I choose to pretend it all matters, I choose to participate in relationships, I choose to care about others and how they feel because it is a more interesting enjoyable experience than watching detachedly from outside it all.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by jaamkie

mostly I agree with this, have for a long time- which is why I'll express a bit of "devil's advocate"...

I think we shouldn't throw out all care for "what we think others think", or to 100% always see our experiences with the belief we are the only consciousness in existence. It is absolutely true that as I sit here all I know, all I experience, is my own consciousness- I can never get beyond it to objectively "prove" anything exists, and as "intelligent design" explains, even if the scientific explanations are seamless and complete, we can always posit an intelligence/power outside who has created the perfect explanations. BUT, I think I'm better off spending most of my time accepting and experiencing the illusion, only occasionally coming up for perspective. To spend all my time cynically nihilistically focusing on the limits of my awareness would prevent me from emotionally connecting, and from learning the lessons I'm setting up for myself, attracting to myself. It is like how we only emotionally connect with a movie when we intentionally forget that the movie is a screen reflecting projected light in a dark room, a movie is a recording of actors reciting lines on a contrived set. I choose to pretend to know that others are as real/conscious as myself, that I can communicate/relate to them and generally empathize- I choose to pretend it all matters, I choose to participate in relationships, I choose to care about others and how they feel because it is a more interesting enjoyable experience than watching detachedly from outside it all.

That's a very interesting point jaamkie. I like that warning, it helps treat other people as more human. I remember a guy online in my previous life as an online gamer who started to feel that we were just avatar, figment of his imagination, so he didn't care how he treated us. Definetely not pleasant at times.

However, what I wrote in my post is valid even in objective reality.

The truth though, is for me, I want to be able to know (believe with full certainty) that someones believes the worst thing possible about me, and yet I'd still be completely ok and not bothered by it. To live life caring so much for other people, and yet to be completely unbothered by their perception of me sounds quite lovely. I know some people who are there, and it I find it quite inspiring to aim to be at that level myself.

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by seeker5

The truth though, is for me, I want to be able to know (believe with full certainty) that someones believes the worst thing possible about me, and yet I'd still be completely ok and not bothered by it.

But you can't know. At best you could theorize. Whatever beliefs you know about are yours, even if you attribute them to others, right? Therefore, the trick is not to not care what others think about you, but to not care what you think about you.

What anybody else does or says is completely irrelevant; it is what you choose to believe about what they do or say that matters. If all beliefs known to you are your beliefs, then it is your own beliefs that you must be able to disregard. You must be able to disregard your own judgmentalism. Once you are free of judgment, then you will be free of the suffering that it comes with. That is the only way to get what you say you want. Give up judgment, and there will be nobody left to judge you.

[jaamkie]

Originally Posted by seeker5

That's a very interesting point jaamkie. I like that warning, it helps treat other people as more human. I remember a guy online in my previous life as an online gamer who started to feel that we were just avatar, figment of his imagination, so he didn't care how he treated us. Definetely not pleasant at times.

However, what I wrote in my post is valid even in objective reality.

The truth though, is for me, I want to be able to know (believe with full certainty) that someones believes the worst thing possible about me, and yet I'd still be completely ok and not bothered by it. To live life caring so much for other people, and yet to be completely unbothered by their perception of me sounds quite lovely. I know some people who are there, and it I find it quite inspiring to aim to be at that level myself.

I'm all for striving toward whatever "better self" mental image you have For me, I think I already tend toward unconventional, going off my own way without caring what people think, so this doesn't seem so great to me, and I see pitfalls in completely not giving a damn about your reputation or how you are perceived.

I care about animals, hope by example and by conversation to encourage others to see animals as fellow beings, not objects, but I think people who know me often dismiss veganism because they equate it with my general non-conformity (not having a TV, living simply on a small % of my income so I can save and give to charity like I feel I ought; various political/religious views; being a high school dropout/going to college early; excessive book-a-day reading; drawing nude figure models as a hobby; and on and on) . If they perceived me as more relatable, perhaps my example would have a larger impact. So right now I'm trying to care a bit MORE about how others perceive me, not less.