Two guys, one girl, big mess.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Sadly, this is not a happy little tale of polyamoury at its best. I'll try to keep it brief, but I could really use some help. I did not want to post this wide, but I'm at loss.

BF has a friend. Friend is quite good looking. I am friendly to friend as we get a long well enough. He seems to be a decent guy. Apparently, friend looks at me a good deal according to bf. I haven't noticed this myself. In my opinion he pays me the most cursory of attention...just being friendly.

So, bf is angry with me because in conversation about this topic I truthfully said that his friend is a good looking guy and his supposed attention is flattering. I can see how lots of people would say I made a big mistake in being truthful there, but I desire honesty, so it's what I try to give. I also made clear that I have not acted improperly toward or with said friend and have no intention of doing so. I told him that if he preferred he could stop having said friend over to our house and instead they could hang out at his house. (I would have offered to leave the house myself but since they are together constantly I'd never get to be in my own home).

Facts:

Friend is an attractive, decent guy. Made no inappropriate advances to me, in fact we rarely converse.
I am loyal to bf. Attracted to but have no intention of acting on that with friend. Keep conversation with friend to minimum and go out of my way to let bf know if friend contacts me for any reason (always looking for bf).
Bf has kissed someone else, sent and received numerous inappropriate texts with various girls, allegedly had sex with others and goes out fairly often to parties and overnight "vacations" with friends, many times "forgetting" to tell me that females will be present.

I'm at a loss. Bf states he hates other guys looking at me. I don't know what to do about this situation at all. I can't control where they look. I am the only one getting "punished" for this as he hasn't said anything to his friend. In addition, he completely negates any feelings I've had when girls have openly flirted with him while I'm standing right there. He says that it's nothing and I should just get over it.

The bottom line though is that I do have an attraction to this other guy. That's a first for me since we've been together. And the more bf gets angry with me and pushes me away the more it builds up. And still I will not let myself act out. I refuse. But I just don't know what to do. I don't even believe that said friend even really notices me. I really think all of this is in my bf mind. His friend is a good friend to him first and foremost. Secondly, I am really not all that to look at. Both bf and friend are handsome guys and could be with anyone, no need to compete over nerdy little me. Thirdly, I think he's just scared now that he's committed and loves me that he will lose me to someone he perceives as better than him.

Bf is being cruel and harsh with his words and it's just wearing me down. I'm so exhausted from trying to make sure I don't offer his friend a drink or accidentally laugh at something he says or have a normal conversation with him. I feel like a prisoner.

I could keep rambling, but do your worst. Advice, criticism, escape plan? Just seriously give it to me straight. If I'm in the wrong I am fully ready to take responsibility for that.

ETA: There's more to this story I think but I don't know how relevant. Anyway, I'll take what you've got and I appreciate the hard questions if there be any.

[Jthorn]

Bf is insecure. And you can't really do anything about that, it's up to him (definetely don't call him that!).

[Angela]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

Bf states he hates other guys looking at me....In addition, he completely negates any feelings I've had when girls have openly flirted with him while I'm standing right there. He says that it's nothing and I should just get over it.

You are the beautiful and clear mirror for BF, who is gazing in and not liking what he sees about himself, and so he is projecting it onto you. For him in this circumstance, you are not a real person, you are the ghostly projected image of how he sees himself in his own mind.

The bottom line though is that I do have an attraction to this other guy. That's a first for me since we've been together. And the more bf gets angry with me and pushes me away the more it builds up.

Isn't that funny? You might never have even noticed this other fellow's attraction to you if BF hadn't emotionally pointed it out to you. It's as if he is screaming at you: "Whatever you do, DON'T think about a fuzzy pink bunny! You are so wrong to think about a fuzzy pink bunny!" And all you can picture in your mind is ... well, you know. Do you think he realizes how powerful he is in creating the fuzzy pink bunny?

Advice, criticism, escape plan? Just seriously give it to me straight.

The first thing I'd ask you to do is: Notice the truth of what he's saying -- you are indeed a beautiful and attractive woman, and men are attracted to you because you are attractive. That is completely obvious. Now, notice that your reaction to that sounds something like, "oh, no no no, no I'm not, you don't really know how unattractive I am.... blah blah blah squawk squawk." And then notice how good it feels when you are ready to let go of that inner talk, and take on fully accepting a belief that you are attractive (what's that? an "I can't?" let that go, too -- keep practicing; the more you do it, the easier it gets to really allow yourself to see a picture in your mind of an ideal, gorgeous, attractive You.)

As far as BF's problem goes, there's really nothing for you to do -- that's his issue, and I know that you are generous and loving enough to allow him the space to work out his own learnings. You can be a generous and loving mirror in the relationship by boldly taking on your OWN lessons, and then trusting that he can be influenced by the freedom and courage and commitment to personal growth that you are BEING. You can, you know.

He sees what he sees in his mirror which is you, and your most profound lesson in the relationship is in boldly looking at what YOU see in your mirror which is him, and in seeing that the way to change the image in the mirror is to change what you are doing. Watch!

[magi13]

it's a genetic thing. men want to have their women to themselves.

now it's your obligation and responsibility to make things clear.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

... he completely negates any feelings I've had when girls have openly flirted with him while I'm standing right there. He says that it's nothing and I should just get over it.

One thing you could say to him is something like:

Wow! Now I can really get it. When I've felt anxiety about what I've noticed you doing and you have said, "Aspiring, you should just get over it", it's just like I feel now. We have traded places, so we could both see it from each other's perspective. How great! Now I can see what you were talking about -- I wish you could just "get over it" because by insisting that there's a problem, you enhance and increase the "problem" -- just like I have done! It's really amazing how powerful we are together.

So now, is this something we're willing to go ahead and learn the lesson in? We can both see that "just getting over it" is not really effective at all. Do you want to brainstorm together on finding a solution, so that we can both feel totally loving and partnership and generosity and freedom [or whatever it is you both want in your relationship], or do we want to just go ahead and continue to feel pain around it and to nurture that pain until it gets so bad we just break up (or get married and be miserable)? How would you like to go forward so that you are most satisfied and fulfilled?

[generous listening generous listening generous listening]

[Dharma]

If you make this about him and not her, you lose any benefit the experience could give her.

ATC, the bf is a reflection of you, a perfect mirror in the moment. He's not broken, he's just showing you something you want to get clear on about yourself.

Changing him is like drawing a smile on a mirror with lipstick. It's not a real change, cuz who is being reflected in that mirror? You! You need to see what is up for you in this situation and change yourself if you choose to. That is the only way to change what's in the mirror... you change yourself.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Angela

You are the beautiful and clear mirror for BF, who is gazing in and not liking what he sees about himself, and so he is projecting it onto you. For him in this circumstance, you are not a real person, you are the ghostly projected image of how he sees himself in his own mind.

Makes sense.

Originally Posted by Angela

Isn't that funny? You might never have even noticed this other fellow's attraction to you if BF hadn't emotionally pointed it out to you. It's as if he is screaming at you: "Whatever you do, DON'T think about a fuzzy pink bunny! You are so wrong to think about a fuzzy pink bunny!" And all you can picture in your mind is ... well, you know. Do you think he realizes how powerful he is in creating the fuzzy pink bunny?

It doesn't help that I was already nonchalantly thinking of the fuzzy pink bunny's cuteness. I was just secure in the fact that it didn't matter because there was no way the bunny was thinking about me.

Originally Posted by Angela

The first thing I'd ask you to do is: Notice the truth of what he's saying -- you are indeed a beautiful and attractive woman, and men are attracted to you because you are attractive. That is completely obvious. Now, notice that your reaction to that sounds something like, "oh, no no no, no I'm not, you don't really know how unattractive I am.... blah blah blah squawk squawk." And then notice how good it feels when you are ready to let go of that inner talk, and take on fully accepting a belief that you are attractive (what's that? an "I can't?" let that go, too -- keep practicing; the more you do it, the easier it gets to really allow yourself to see a picture in your mind of an ideal, gorgeous, attractive You.)

That's where you lose me. Honestly that will take a lot of work. When you've been the unattractive one in every group your whole life, it's hard to accept, even if a fine looking guy notices you (or even if your bf just thinks he does).

Originally Posted by Angela

As far as BF's problem goes, there's really nothing for you to do -- that's his issue, and I know that you are generous and loving enough to allow him the space to work out his own learnings. You can be a generous and loving mirror in the relationship by boldly taking on your OWN lessons, and then trusting that he can be influenced by the freedom and courage and commitment to personal growth that you are BEING. You can, you know.

He sees what he sees in his mirror which is you, and your most profound lesson in the relationship is in boldly looking at what YOU see in your mirror which is him, and in seeing that the way to change the image in the mirror is to change what you are doing. Watch!

So, I guess it's time to distinguish what my OWN lessons are in this. I'm conflicted about my attraction to this guy. I feel unworthy of his notice and as if it is most likely fictional. I feel that there is something for me to look boldly at, but I haven't yet distinguished exactly what???

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by magi13

it's a genetic thing. men want to have their women to themselves.

now it's your obligation and responsibility to make things clear.

He's made it clear it's not possible for me to do that. I've said the truth and acted with integrity, but that doesn't calm his mind. What else would you suggest I do?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Angela

One thing you could say to him is something like:



[generous listening generous listening generous listening]

I've said something quite similar to that, but not as well worded.

His response was "leave me alone" and so I have since then.

[magi13]

move on. it seems to me you guys aren't responsible. you're prides are clashing with each other.

in a relationship both parties have to give each other more than 50 percent atleast 60 percent effort on both sides.

since you guys are in a polyamory relationship, it's bound to happen.

All I can now say is be more responsible. There is nothing else you can do, but face the music. If he says you can't be responsible for him, that's true but you are responsible for yourself.

I'll again state this for emphasis, move on.

Now it's all up to you, your responsible for everything that happens to you, make sure you have no regrets.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Dharma

If you make this about him and not her, you lose any benefit the experience could give her.

ATC, the bf is a reflection of you, a perfect mirror in the moment. He's not broken, he's just showing you something you want to get clear on about yourself.

Changing him is like drawing a smile on a mirror with lipstick. It's not a real change, cuz who is being reflected in that mirror? You! You need to see what is up for you in this situation and change yourself if you choose to. That is the only way to change what's in the mirror... you change yourself.

I definitely agree and I'm looking now to figure out what it is he's showing me that I want to get clear on for myself. I'll gladly change I just don't know what I should change or what I want to change.

Honestly the more I think about it the less compassion I have for how he feels right now and the more bitterness I have for the things he's done. That's certainly not what I want, but it's the truth of my feelings right now.

I feel disallowed from having a normal life where I can interact with people on a casual basis. I know that if I'm being controled that it is only because I allow myself to be. The part of me that thinks this is unfair just wants to leave.

Part of me just wants to have this imagined attraction alive in my head just so I can feel pretty or special. I know that acting on it wouldn't produce fantasy results. The reality is that we'd not be right for each other. But in the state I'm in right now, even imagining that someone thinks about me in a favorable way is like a drug. In my relationship I haven't felt special and I've never felt that bf was attracted to my looks and that's been hard for me to live with.

I can see this is opening a whole can of worms. I know you guys will have advice on what to do about myself. I am ready to dig into that. Practically, at home, how do I move forward? Do I just wait?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by magi13

move on. it seems to me you guys aren't responsible. you're prides are clashing with each other.

in a relationship both parties have to give each other more than 50 percent atleast 60 percent effort on both sides.

since you guys are in a polyamory relationship, it's bound to happen.

All I can now say is be more responsible. There is nothing else you can do, but face the music. If he says you can't be responsible for him, that's true but you are responsible for yourself.

I'll again state this for emphasis, move on.

Now it's all up to you, your responsible for everything that happens to you, make sure you have no regrets.

We are not in a poly relationship, sorry to be confusing it was more of a comment on how non-poly we actually are.

Thanks for your advice, but moving on is only one tiny piece of the puzzle. Even if I were to do that, I'd need to deal with all of the issues that have come up due to this situation.

I have no regrets in this life. What do regrets do for you?

[magi13]

Good luck. :3...

it seems to me you already know what you want to do.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

That's where you lose me. Honestly that will take a lot of work. When you've been the unattractive one in every group your whole life, it's hard to accept, even if a fine looking guy notices you (or even if your bf just thinks he does).

...imagining that someone thinks about me in a favorable way is like a drug. In my relationship I haven't felt special and I've never felt that bf was attracted to my looks and that's been hard for me to live with.

So, I guess it's time to distinguish what my OWN lessons are in this. I'm conflicted about my attraction to this guy. I feel unworthy of his notice and as if it is most likely fictional. I feel that there is something for me to look boldly at, but I haven't yet distinguished exactly what???

Umm, excuse me for saying so, but.... DUH!

His response was "leave me alone" and so I have since then.

That sounds pretty clear to me. He may just be asking for some time to process on his own. On the other hand, if, when asking what he's willing to do to grow together, you consistently get a response of "leave me alone" -- well, it doesn't get much clearer than that! Again, though, he may be a solitary processor (he is a man, after all) so give him some space and he may come back to you with something fun.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Angela

Umm, excuse me for saying so, but.... DUH!

Yes, duh. Obviously I could look at my feelings of unattractiveness. I just don't know what to look at there. I feel that all people are beautiful on the one hand and at the same time feel I'm definitely not beautiful in the same way say, Natalie Portman is beautiful.

So, is it my work to accept myself as attractive? Is that what this whole thing is trying to teach me? I'm to learn something about the fact that I'm attracted to him in the first place, but I already know my values around stepping outside of your relationship, so what to learn there?

I'm not being intentionally dense. Truly. I guess it's just my preference for a "big lesson" to be clearly set out with steps and everything. I really don't know where this will take me.

Originally Posted by Angela

That sounds pretty clear to me. He may just be asking for some time to process on his own. On the other hand, if, when asking what he's willing to do to grow together, you consistently get a response of "leave me alone" -- well, it doesn't get much clearer than that! Again, though, he may be a solitary processor (he is a man, after all) so give him some space and he may come back to you with something fun.

It's hit or miss with him so I'll leave it alone for now and see what he comes back with. Most recently his response to any question of his willingness to grow the relationship has been more promising than in the past...until the situation at hand.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

In thinking about it, there's definitely more to the attractiveness portion of this situation. This past week I overate and did not exercise. It wasn't conscious, but now that I take time to look at it I was passive-aggresively making myself less attractive which would also backfire as I tipped the fine line between still being attractive to my bf, but not to other guys. I'd eventually be too overweight for him to be attracted to me any more, he'd go out and get a hot 19 year old and I'd be even more unattractive and alone.

I guess that's something to look at, huh?

[Angela]

What quality or condition would make the biggest positive difference for you, if it were present. You know what I'm asking you: what way of being, if you were to take it on, would have you feeling satisfied, fulfilled, and inspired? What could you let go of? What are you willing to let go of?

From my perspective, it's easy for me to see what I might take on or let go of that would make a difference. That's because I'm outside of your body and mind, and I'm seeing them through my eyes rather than yours. Maybe you'd like to try that. Not necessarily looking through my eyes, but just dissociate yourself from your body, pull your reference point up, up, up as high as you need to go to look down onto the situation and look through the eyes of a disinterested observer. How do things look, sound, and feel from way up there?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

In thinking about it, there's definitely more to the attractiveness portion of this situation. This past week I overate and did not exercise. It wasn't conscious, but now that I take time to look at it I was passive-aggresively making myself less attractive which would also backfire as I tipped the fine line between still being attractive to my bf, but not to other guys. I'd eventually be too overweight for him to be attracted to me any more, he'd go out and get a hot 19 year old and I'd be even more unattractive and alone.

I guess that's something to look at, huh?

Yeah, isn't it?

You think you might have a little secondary gain going on there with "being unattractive"?

[gingembre]

It seems to me you are not getting *your* needs met. You are uncomfortable with your bf flirting with other girls in front of you (or being flirted with) and when you bring it up, he brushes you off. Given how careful you are to avoid even the appearance of impropriety with regards to your bf's friend (aka fluffy pink bunny!), you are understandably upset that your bf refuses to even take *you* concerns seriously - and it sounds as though you have reason to have many of them.

Valueable as it can be to consider another's behavior as a "mirror" of you, and vice versa, it seems to me that you are reaching a point wherein a serious conversation needs to happen, and where you may want to be open to the possibility of a break (even temporarily) from teh relationship if you bf is not willing to meet you halfway. Your concerns ARE valid. Please do not let your insecurities (i.e. you are nerdy and somehow not deserving such a handsome bf - something I am certain is not true) blind you to the fact that *your* needs are valid and important and must be met as well.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Angela

What quality or condition would make the biggest positive difference for you, if it were present. You know what I'm asking you: what way of being, if you were to take it on, would have you feeling satisfied, fulfilled, and inspired? What could you let go of? What are you willing to let go of?

First that comes to mind is Peace. There is definitely more digging to be done there. Peace would certainly make a difference, but it's not the heart of the issue.

Originally Posted by Angela

From my perspective, it's easy for me to see what I might take on or let go of that would make a difference. That's because I'm outside of your body and mind, and I'm seeing them through my eyes rather than yours. Maybe you'd like to try that. Not necessarily looking through my eyes, but just dissociate yourself from your body, pull your reference point up, up, up as high as you need to go to look down onto the situation and look through the eyes of a disinterested observer. How do things look, sound, and feel from way up there?

It's really difficult for me to take that perspective. I'm so entrenched in my pov. Right now when I try to do it, I just keep getting stuff like: two people in a lot of pain who don't think they are worthy of being loved and loving someone else and having that work. They are looking outside themselves for the answers but they won't find them there. They each have to deal with the entrenched feelings of hatred toward themselves in order to move forward and grow.

I feel like this is something really big because it truthfully feels like everything in me is holding me back from looking at this.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Angela

Yeah, isn't it?

You think you might have a little secondary gain going on there with "being unattractive"?

You mean getting to eat whatever I want and sit around like a slob? If so, yes.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by gingembre

It seems to me you are not getting *your* needs met. You are uncomfortable with your bf flirting with other girls in front of you (or being flirted with) and when you bring it up, he brushes you off. Given how careful you are to avoid even the appearance of impropriety with regards to your bf's friend (aka fluffy pink bunny!), you are understandably upset that your bf refuses to even take *you* concerns seriously - and it sounds as though you have reason to have many of them.

Valueable as it can be to consider another's behavior as a "mirror" of you, and vice versa, it seems to me that you are reaching a point wherein a serious conversation needs to happen, and where you may want to be open to the possibility of a break (even temporarily) from teh relationship if you bf is not willing to meet you halfway. Your concerns ARE valid. Please do not let your insecurities (i.e. you are nerdy and somehow not deserving such a handsome bf - something I am certain is not true) blind you to the fact that *your* needs are valid and important and must be met as well.

You've really hit the nail on the head with my feelings about the inequality -- double standard, if you will -- that I feel is present in the relationship.

This is exactly what makes me so angry and has me on the verge of leaving. I treat these people (all males we know, basically) as if I hardly know them (not doing things I would normally do for a friend or even a casual aquaintance) to avoid even the implication of impropriety and this is what I get for my efforts from someone who has made no such effort himself.

But truly I know my concerns are valid and that he is taking more liberty for himself than he's willing to give me. I also know he can't see that from where he is.

I may have already been gone if we weren't so "stuck" in terms of living situation.

I love him very much, but I'm losing respect for the balance of power he thinks is appropriate in relationships.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by magi13

Good luck. :3....

Thank you.

Originally Posted by magi13

it seems to me you already know what you want to do.

I'm not sure what you're implying, but in fact I have no such certainty.

[Honeywith4bees]

I sent you a PM Clarity.

Good luck and lots of love with this.

I KNOW you can do it!!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

You mean getting to eat whatever I want and sit around like a slob? If so, yes.

That's not exactly what I was talking about. If you believe you are unattractive, that lets you off the hook for something -- you're just not responsible for it, because The Truth is that you're unattractive, so you can't (don't have to) really take on this something. Can you see what that something is?

[cylon]

Whatever you're thinking of doing, it is going to ruin the friendship of your bf and his friend. And when you have completely forgotten about both of these guys, their friendship will still be ruined.

I think your bf is jealous and insecure which is pretty common, which is making him less attractive to you, which is pretty common, and you are now seeking justification and permission to cheat on him (or leave him if the other guy isn't willing to be responsible for cheating) so you don't feel so bad when the inevitable happens, which is pretty common.

This would fall under the category of games. It's called "Branch Swinging". You're securing the next branch with this post, and looking for permission to hold onto that new branch tighter.

There's also the drama, the rush that comes from having two guys be interested in you at the same time, and all the posting about it and everything. It's exciting. I liked when two girls would be competing for me, I felt on top of the world, and would actually enjoy when I saw them getting catty with each other. Of course, I would never admit it. Except right now.

But now that you've lost attraction for your bf, sounds like it's over. He doesn't realize why he's pushing you away because of his neediness, and if it's not with his friend, it's gonna be with the next guy. He's done. If he was fine with you liking his friend, and was confident in himself, it probably wouldn't have developed past that.

Anyway, whatever makes you happy. Maybe this guy is better for you. Don't stay in a relationship that is not meeting your needs. There are no points in heaven for that.

But I would at least consider, the friendship that's about to be ruined between these two dudes. Then you could know you made a choice that considered the feelings of everyone involved.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cylon

Whatever you're thinking of doing...... you are now seeking justification and permission to cheat on him (or leave him if the other guy isn't willing to be responsible for cheating) so you don't feel so bad when the inevitable happens, which is pretty common...

Cylon, do you think you might be reading her mind a little bit? Is it possible you're doing a little bit of projection, yourself, here?

[cylon]

Could be. But this is like textbook "I'm about to dump my boyfriend and now I want permission to do it."

I could be projecting. I've been the "friend", I saw what happened. She started getting into fights with the bf and I could tell she was searching for justification, to make the leap to me.

And I'm also picking up a bit of conversation we were having earlier.

Besides, I am ALWAYS RIGHT.

Not to be too hard on her, she knows I'm in her corner.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by cylon

Whatever you're thinking of doing, it is going to ruin the friendship of your bf and his friend. And when you have completely forgotten about both of these guys, their friendship will still be ruined.

I think your bf is jealous and insecure which is pretty common, which is making him less attractive to you, which is pretty common, and you are now seeking justification and permission to cheat on him so you don't feel so bad when the inevitable happens, which is pretty common.

This would fall under the category of games. It's called "Branch Swinging". You're securing the next branch with this post, and looking for permission to hold onto that new branch tighter.

But now that you've lost attraction for your bf, sounds like it's over. He doesn't realize why he's pushing you away because of his neediness, and if it's not with his friend, it's gonna be with the next guy. He's done.

Anyway, whatever makes you happy. Maybe this guy is better for you. But I would at least consider, the friendship that's about to be ruined between these two dudes. Then you could know you made a choice and considered the feelings of everyone involved.

That is just the thing. I'm not thinking of doing anything with this other guy. Actually, let me say that correctly, the thought has crossed my mind, but it's not up for consideration. I'm not looking for permission, I'm looking for a lifeline here. It's in my code not to do such a thing. It wouldn't in fact make me happy at all to do something that could potentially hurt so many people. Not to mention the fact that this other guy is not someone I'd want to be in a relationship with. He's eye candy, nothing more. And the only reason I'm enjoying the view right now is because it's a distraction from the very real mess that is my relationship.

IF I swing away from the "branch" of my bf, it will most certainly not be to his friend. In addition, any swinging I do will be done only when/if this relationship is over. I feel that you're projecting here based on what the women you've known would do. If I leave, I feel I will be alone for a long time because the wounds and lessons of this relationship are not so easily healed/learned. Cylon, I truly appreciate your perspective, but you don't have all the facts of what's happened between us to make these declarations. If you knew half of what he's done I don't see how you could say such things to me.

I don't want to ruin their friendship. I'd sooner take myself out of the equation to a land far away. I've offered as much. I even said, look, he's a really good friend to you. This is not worth losing the friendship over. It's a look and someone being flattered by that look, nothing more. It really hurts me that you can't see past your bias against women and into the truth of this situation.

And what of his friend? He is the one who's looking, right? And yet if something were to happen between us (and again, that is not an option) it would be I who ruined their friendship? Come on! You may certainly feel the reverse is true, but a woman can't survive the way guys have this game rigged. If in the midst of all this drama I did sleep with his friend, I'd be slut-shamed and they'd go on being bros. It would just cement the fact in their minds that women are not to be trusted (no matter that both of them have a cheating rap sheet a mile long). Jesus! Is his friend as much as a bitch as I am in the scenario? Why does he get a free pass?!

I really don't know what else to say. You imagine me a monster and I doubt I can change your mind on that. It just hurts. I'd hoped that maybe I could be a woman who would show you that not all women fit your perception, but it seems like that perception is set in stone.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by cylon

There's also the drama, the rush that comes from having two guys be interested in you at the same time, and all the posting about it and everything. It's exciting. I liked when two girls would be competing for me, I felt on top of the world, and would actually enjoy when I saw them getting catty with each other. Of course, I would never admit it. Except right now.

This I will freely admit to right in the middle of it all. It does feel good to think someone fancies me. As an insecure and never sought after person it does bring a rush. But as an adult with full control of my actions and certain values the rush of an imagined fantasy is all it will ever be. I would not enjoy it if they actually had a falling out with each other or got...whatever the male version of "catty" is. I'd hate to feel responsible for that! And I would, even if I had done nothing to perpetuate it (like right now).