Parenting & Polyamory

[mirror]

I only registered on this forum to comment on the exploration of the polyamory adventure. I was drawn to the issue because I am a child of a father with two wives. I am now 43 years old and have (almost grown up) children myself, but growing up in a polyamory environment has had a major impact on my thought patterns and beliefs and I am only now beginning to realize how this situation has shaped and created many of my painful learning experiences through life. I do not resent that, I am merely here to understand it.

For as far back as I remember, my father was a strong believer in personal freedom. He was the typical bohemian hippie artist, only interested in creating his own life and his own next artistic expression. When I came along as his daughter, I was kind of an inconvenience. I have always felt that he loved me, but not fully or equally much as he loved himself. I have always felt that he wanted the best for me, but not to his own expense or if this meant he would have to invest any energy into me, much less give up any of the desires he pursued for himself. I was offered a safe home with plenty of good things and opportunities, but it was well understood that I was never to ask for or express my own needs, for the needs of my father were the only ones that counted. Not hard to guess where my feelings of unworthiness stemmed from.

My father was married to a sweet submissive lady who was my stepmother, who would take care of him and the family, and worked harder than he did. He also had a slightly younger lover, who would share in his artistic and philosophical life and live at our house for about 3 days a week. Their sex life was a triangle. From the very beginning of this situation I felt a resentment against this woman. Obviously she was showered with my father's attention, since she was the manifestation of his desires, and I was not. As his child, I felt that I had more rights than she had to his love and attention. I felt it was my birthright. I intuitively felt that this situation was very "wrong", even though I couldn't quite define what was wrong with it at the time.

When I was around the age of 13, I started to listen to this intuitive voice, telling me that this situation was not correct, not in alignment with how I felt it was supposed to be. Not in alignment with my truth (or at least what my truth was at the time, for I believe our truths change as we grow and evolve). When I opened up to my father and stepmother about how I felt, it was firmly dismissed as an immature point of view. My father told me that marriages or relationships can have many forms and can involve many people, and that my view on the matter was merely one of an ignorant child. He told me the "wrongness" I intuited came from fear of not being loved, but that I had nothing to worry about because this form was merely a bigger love. Obviously too big to be understood by my immature mind, according to him.

I remember a very clear shift in my consciousness at that moment. Not in a good way though. Because the dominant power of my father's words at that moment was louder than the tiny inner voice of my budding intuition, and the desire to be loved and appreciated by my father was stronger than the desire to appreciate myself first, I chose to accept his words as my truth, dismiss my intuition as an unreliable compass and become at least in expressed opinions, less childish. This has been a defining moment for the rest of my life. I tried hard for many many years to be something that I was not, to express opinions that I didn't resonate with on an inner level, while keeping that intuition suppressed at all times.

I share this adventure with you, because it has taught me that the balance within a family unit is so very delicate. The level of consciousness that children are at is still so very mouldable. It is child’s play for an adult to overrule the truth of a child. Take control of the mind of a child, before he or she has learned to master his own.
I have no doubt that Steve and Erin are people who do their best to raise their children to think for themselves, however I know that when we want things really badly to be a certain way, there is always the temptation to overrule other people's truths in order to get our own. We might not even be consciously doing it, but our mere presence might be dominant and intimidating enough for the child to suppress his own intuition out of fear of not being accepted and loved.

From what I have found, when we form a relationship or form a family, our sense of "I" expands. Finding alignment with all the "I"-s involved, becomes a more complex process. Certainly fun, enjoyable and interesting, but where children are concerned, I believe they deserve an honest and equal share in the alignment process, regardless of their age.

As Steve and Erin move into polyamory, I am very curious to find out how they work through this process, especially with regard to the opinions of their children. I am grateful for the openness in their lives. It has brought me a lot of clarity and insight.

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by mirror

He told me the "wrongness" I intuited came from fear of not being loved, but that I had nothing to worry about because this form was merely a bigger love. Obviously too big to be understood by my immature mind, according to him.

Thanks for your thoughtful post, Mirror. I wonder if you had been getting your needs met in the relationship - if you hadn't felt dismissed - if your intuition would have been the same? I wonder if your feelings weren't fear of not being loved? That if your parents had been connected to you, and you didn't feel extraneous, you wouldn't have seen the situation as wrong?

I really appreciate your point of view!

[mirror]

Originally Posted by carenkh

Thanks for your thoughtful post, Mirror. I wonder if you had been getting your needs met in the relationship - if you hadn't felt dismissed - if your intuition would have been the same? I wonder if your feelings weren't fear of not being loved? That if your parents had been connected to you, and you didn't feel extraneous, you wouldn't have seen the situation as wrong?
I really appreciate your point of view!

Thank you for your comment and question. I will try to answer this as accurately as I can. I am convinced that my lack of connection to my father -parents-, has been at the basis of my gut feeling that something was "wrong" in our situation. I even knew this as a child. I knew that the lack of concern I experienced from my father had a lot to do with the way I felt toward his polyamory.

That observation became even more complex when my father pointed this out to me, made me even feel more stupid and dependent as a child. He triggered my guilt button. I didn't want to be this "needy" immature child who was too narrow minded to cope with an unusual family structure or couldn't see beyond the norms and restrictions of society. I wanted to be open minded, mature and wise just like him, so that (so I hoped) my father would appreciate and love me.

What it boils down to, is that a child needs to feel safe in his or her family circle. Needs to feel seen and heard by the people that he depends on for his well being and spiritual education. If the child is not acknowledged in his own truth, he is at risk of shutting down his inner voice and start adopting his adult parents’ points of view as his own, and I know from experience that this is not a healthy thing. It is an artificial overlay.
Perhaps if my father would have responded with genuine concern toward my feelings (and get down to my level) I would have felt differently. I might have felt “seen and heard” and might have been willing to meet him halfway.

But I have to say "perhaps", because the feeling that prevails is that I am not entirely sure that my gut feeling regarding “the other woman” would indeed have been different. When push comes to shove, children do not want their family unit infiltrated by foreign objects

Now to even things out, in blunt language my father could be described as a self absorbed egotist only concerned with his own desires, never worried about matching them with the greater good for all. Who would want such a father? But it is obvious to me that I chose this situation in my life for myself, for the repression of my inner voice and my conditioned beliefs of unworthiness and guilt, are at the basis of my spiritual growth. My consciousness needed this experience. I take full responsibility and rejoice in the understanding it has brought me. However, I still have a lot of unresolved pieces of the puzzle, and I am curious to hear Steve share about his experience. He has shared a lot from his own point of view, and how he moves through the process with his partner, but I am most interested in an open and honest assessment of the childrens’ feelings and responses, if and when a “third party” enters his family unit.

[carenkh]

I asked the moderator to copy & move this discussion to its own thread - I know several people have asked about parenting & polyamory, and I thought mirror's experience was valuable to read, and a good starting point. I have more thoughts about our discussion, but for now, I just wanted to bump this thread to the main page.

peace ~

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by mirror

But I have to say "perhaps", because the feeling that prevails is that I am not entirely sure that my gut feeling regarding “the other woman” would indeed have been different. When push comes to shove, children do not want their family unit infiltrated by foreign objects

You said SO much, mirror! For now, I wanted to pull this out, and point out: You did not want your family unit infiltrated by foreign objects. That's valid, and I'm sorry your feelings weren't honored. But I know there are some children who don't see another person as a foreign object; the other person is someone else to love and care for them.

This doesn't make you wrong for feeling the way you did. Every child is different; that's why being an aware parent can be tough, because it requires close connection and communication with your child, you can't just follow blanket statements about what's best for children.

[pyrogen]

I relate to your post on several levels... one day, I swear, I'm going to write a book on 'Hippie Parent Syndrome', that's actually one of my reasons for wanting to become a psychologist/psychotherapist (I'm not sure which yet).

1) though I've only been in monogamous relationships, I really relate to your father, I'm a very similar personality (except I'm female). Your post hit a chord because I wonder if a child growing up with me as a parent, would suffer similarly.

2) My own parents were very bohemian (though monogamous - they TRIED poly at one point and it didn't work for them) and I was raised outside of a traditional family life. We were not part of any of the usual community structures. They did not socialize with other parents. I was kind of like an appendage to an otherwise totally adult-centered life. My parents had their music buddies over at 1am playing folk music on school nights. They managed to have NRE *their entire relationship* until they split up. They were constantly making out and constantly telling each other in jokes, but their relationship was more important than their relationship with their child. I was excluded. I'm sure I've been damaged as a result.

3) When my parents split up when I was 13, I had to spend the next four years coping with both of them being totally nonentities in my life because of their dating lives, then both remarrying at the same time and having their spouse be front and center (New Relationship Energy). I felt completely, utterly abandoned and started making a lot of bad life choices, I started to turn to boyfriends for what I should have been getting from my own parents. I also felt threatened by the fact that my mom had boyfriends. I felt on an instinctual level that it was wrong for other men to be in the picture, although I did not feel wrong about my dad having girlfriends (which he did only briefly before remarrying; she played the field for YEARS). I didn't feel threatened by strange women the way I did by strange men. I did not like thinking of my mother as having sex with a number of strange men. It was confusing and painful for me.
I felt threatened by the presence of these men and did not want them in the house. I didn't even want them around or want to be near them. I was at "dating age" in my teen years and it seemed wrong that I couldn't sleep around yet here was my mother having casual relationships. I solved the dissonance by sticking to my guns, but I lost respect for my mother as a result. She fell from being an adult figure that I could look up to, to another clueless teenager my own age but stuck in a 30something body. The damage still goes on to this day, because I really don't trust her to know anything and have trouble taking her advice about anything. The situation in my teens really damaged my trust of her.

I was *FINE* with it when she actually got involved in a *serious* relationship with my future stepfather, even if he was a jerk for the first few years, because to me that was different. That was an adult relationship to someone who was going to be a permanent member of the family and who I could look up to as an authority figure. I didn't feel comfortable having a succession of men around who had no vested interest in our life as a family.

The deal is though - because my parents were monogamous, they eventually settled down with their mates, and the NRE faded. If they'd been poly, it could've been wash, rinse, repeat with a succession of people.

I do not see New Relationship Energy between adults as compatible with the well-being of the adults' children, over the long term. The time for NRE is when a couple gets together and has not had children yet, or when the task of raising those children during their formative years, is complete. Being in anything but a "married" type relationship (whether to one or more people) brings NRE into the picture as a loose cannon that can run roughshod over everything.

Your dad's relationship with his lover wasn't really like two co-wives, as you describe it. Lover is a distinct role from wife. She had the "muse" version of the lover role. Your dad had the various relationship tasks diversified: your mother to be the helpmeet and this other woman to be the muse. This is more like the traditional "wife vs mistress" relationship, even though they had it all out in the open. Did your mother have a "muse" of her own? How was she with all of this?

Your father may have eventually settled in with that woman and the New Relationship Energy would've dissipated. But then, the moment she moved in, the "muse" role would be over. I don't think being a "muse" and being a "helpmeet" are compatible for many people. Sharing the hazards and burdens of daily life, spells death to "muse" energy.

You don't usually feel inspired and turned on by the person picking up your socks off the floor, or who's telling you to pick up your own damn socks.

Also, I wonder if the lover would have been as much of a "foreign object" if she had actually been in a real co-wife role, not in a "lover" role. It sounds to me like she didn't take any responsibility for household stuff or share tasks at all with your mom.

[funchy]

I really feel for people in your situation, and I personally don't believe kids should be raised this way. It is confusing at best to be faced with "the other wife" who isn't your mom and doesn't appear to want anything to do with you.

Thank you for sharing your private experiences & feelings with us. You seem to be doing great dealing with it. It might be tempting to get bitter or resentful, and you sound like you're doing a good job trying to understand & work through your feelings.

[Michael Chui]

It's hard for me to respond without waxing philosophical and mythical. I wrote an entire post explaining not one, but two works on mythology, and realized I was trying way too hard to package my entire thought into a dozen paragraphs, so I'm just going to leave random stuff out. Indulge me while I ramble.

---

Blatant disclaimer: I am pro-polyamory.

I think it's unfair to blame polyamory for the parenting situations described in this thread (yes, including pyrogen's). Think about the benefits to parenting that polyamory is espoused to bring: more hands to provide food and care, more perspectives to share, and so on.

So instead, I want to point out the details of parenting. Pyrogen, in other threads, has pointed out that many people end up monogamous anyways, because they settle down and focus everything on one person and it works out. This is worth extending.

For the past year or so, I've been toying with the idea that people shouldn't be allowed to be parents without a license. Previous to that, I have been pretty emphatic that parents must be trained in parenting. But leaving all of that aside, the first and foremost requirement for a parent should be interest, if not dedication. Sure, an untrained and dedicated parent will have attachment problems later on in life, but it's better than a trained but negligent parent.

Choosing to be a parent is something that needs to be followed through. I was surprised, for instance, that mirror's mother was a nonentity in his narrative: she existed for a sentence, and then she was gone. His stepmother existed, psychologically, as a receptacle for his father, and nothing more. Why? Why is it that his father is the only person who got air time, and none of it was positive, except, interpretably, his endorsement of polyamory?

Of course, it could be a matter of an incomplete tale. That's fine; polyamory is the subject at hand. But it doesn't sound incomplete to me. It worries me that polyamory was such a significant subject: that doesn't sound well-adjusted in the first place: the father seemed to need a security that didn't permit self-doubt to enter through his child's voice.

And I thought it was odd that your stepmother had nothing to say on the subject. You asked her, too, but when your father was done being haughty and superior to his teenage son, she simply stepped back silently? If she deserves the title of stepmother, then I expect her to be a mother.

This kind of parenting isn't bad by most societies' standards, but it's terrible by mine. Of course, my bar is set much, much higher, so that's understandable, but well... I'm right, so obviously everyone else is wrong. But I'm also the kind of person who dislikes people who want nothing to do with kids and forcefully agrees with the notion of a community raising a child, rather than a mere two people. Or three. Or five.

---

By the way, I ran a Google search for polyamory parenting and found some relevant websites, including a Christian one denouncing the practice by explaining the concept and then, in one short sarcastic rejoinder, pointing out how horrible it would be if it didn't work out. Only, if it didn't work out.

Adding "child" to my search terms got me this gem: Polyamorous Percolations. It wasn't what I was looking for (a child's perspective), but it's certainly a contrast complementary to my point: that there is a different and better way to parent, at least, even if there's no assurance (I skimmed, so maybe there is) that it'll work out.

[osuzyq828]

Originally Posted by mirror

I only registered on this forum to comment on the exploration of the polyamory adventure.

I haven't been to this site for a few months. I can't say I am pro or anti poly - however, I do have thoughts to share being my ancient 47 year old self. I appreciate "mirror's" post as an aspect of the lifestyle you don't hear much about. I also appreciate the post by the person who talked about New Relationship Energy.

I know about polyamory not because I have practiced it, but I have had on-line friends who have done it. I did experience other alternative lifestyle/sexual choices where the subject of poly was often discussed, so I am familiar with the concept and the arguments for and against.

One thing that is easily brushed off is the question that "If polyamory isn't about sex, why does it always seem to be about sex - why is sex even an issue?" I have never gotten a good response for that, one I could wrap my head around completely.

I find in my aging that looking before leaping definitely has its benefits. If I knew someone personally who was considering, I would say talk to each other until the cows come home and even when they seem to be well bedded down in the barn for the night. Don't lie about any of your feelings regarding it. Don't hide your intentions. And, all this seems so exciting today but what's wrong with waiting a while. Why not just completely set it aside for 3-6 months, and see how you feel about it then?

The only other thing that makes sense to me is that those who have no kids may be better suited and that those with kids may wait until the kids are older to pursue this lifestyle

I wish Erin and Steve the best in their choices. Sending light and love.

Sue

[passionfruit]

Greetings:

Mirror, I feel your pain. I am about 16 weeks away from turning 40 and I too grew up with a parent who was in multiple relationships. My father was always involved with more than one woman. This was tradition and a cultural trait that he inherited from his father and his society. We're Haitians. The thing is that most times and for those of his generation it seems to have been practiced too clandestine (ly)? So there was an element of sexism and taboo in this practice that did not serve the women well at all.
It also gave me a sense that I was not worthy of his love because I could not provide him sexual satisfaction. So I have looked to be sexually appealing for periods in my life. It still bothers me a great deal though. I still feel insecure about matters regarding love and acceptance that I attribute to my relationship with my father.

interestingly, I only lived with my father for only 3 years of my life. He died when I turned 16 and I was just about to become a woman. Needless, to say that I always felt threatened by his new and often younger love interests because they were "different" and took all of the attention away from me and my sister and his other children too (but they had caring mothers who were present in their lives while me and my sister didn't.)

At this time I know that I need to heal that part of my personality but I am not sure how. When I can I will get help from an experienced healer. But I know that my insecurities about love and relationships have a lot to do with that experience with my dad.

However, I don't believe that folks who practice polyamory will necessarily have children who come out feeling as we did. The simple fact that they are "out" and have a genuine agreement between adults serves to promote a specific kind of environment for themselves and their children. In my case, my father was always "cheating" and so were some of the women including my step mother who had other lovers. Nothing was ever explained to us because we were kids and we had no rights nor were we allowed a voice or opinion on the issue.

I am hopeful about the polyamory movement because I think that it will serve to spread the love and make families stronger.

Thanks for starting this thread though.

[polyfulcrum]

Ironically enough, I had the dubious honor of having someone on another online forum tell me that my child should be taken away from me, on the basis of our family being polyamorous. That was a first! Of course, this person was fairly obviously not speaking from a place of anything resembling critical thought, so a large grain of salt was added to processing that.

Yes, I have no real concrete idea how being raised in a polyamorous household will affect the two children that are involved as adults. All I can go off of is what I can see currently. Here's what I've noticed since we started cohabiting: Both kids are doing better academically. Both are learning to ask for what they need as far as attention and help. Both are gaining better communication skills and able to negotiate more readily. There are times that they seek more exclusivity, so we try to make "dates" with our kids, as well as the adults.

Most of those things seem to hinge on the fact that, with three adults, three wage-earners, we have more time for the kids as well as ourselves. There is almost no need for daycare anymore, since there is usually a parent available.

Long-term, I don't know. There aren't any guarantees within any parenting model I've seen. All I can say is that we're doing the best we can with what we know, and aren't afraid to make changes as we learn more.

[ssandra]

As long as your child comes first, your lifestyle doesn´t matter!

This is my opinion, but one I think most people will agree with (and to quote Michael Chui: Obviously I am right, so anybody who disagrees must be wrong...).

You can be a single parent, have 3 wives and 6 husbands, work full time, be a stay at home mom or dad... your children will do fine as long as they are first, and receive unconditional love and attention!

From everything I have heard so far of children not being ok when they grow up later, it has to do with wrong focus of their parents. Not with the lifestyle itself!

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I just thought it rather, I don't know, humerous I guess that I pulled up Slate.com and found this piece of advice: A creepy acquaintance continues to contact me, even though I've asked him to stop. - - Slate Magazine (scroll to second question, under the video).

Most of the time I like "Prudie's" advice (her Ask Prudence column is actually the only thing I read at Slate). Here, I think she could have delved deeper rather than being so closed off and dismissive. Just wondering what everyone else thinks of the question, especially you poly folks. How would you handle that situation with your teens?

ETA: The comment section has a surprisingly good discussion going on. The folks on the side of "she was too sarcastic in her answer and didn't really provide actionable help" seem to be faring better and making more cogent arguments than the "oh noes, poly is icky and they shouldn't be allowed as parents" side. Check it out...pretty fascinating how I'm seeing poly everywhere right now...

[polyfulcrum]

We don't have teens yet, but we have a 7 and 11 year old. One from each side of the family. They are both aware of who is dating whom. Most of the time, they are cool having extra family members.

When they feel like they need some exclusive time, we encourage them to bring it up and set a "date" of their own with whatever family member(s) they would like. Their friends come over to the house, and no one much seems to care that our household isn't too traditional. They've gotten more flack from other kids about not being religious than having an unusually structured family.

When it comes to dating as they get older, I'm sure we'll have some conversations about how that will work, making introductions etc. For now, we just say we're a family of choice, and let it go at that.

[pyrogen]

Originally Posted by ssandra

As long as your child comes first, your lifestyle doesn´t matter!

Yep

My parents were a traditional nuclear family but I still identify so painfully with the OP. Parents were very selfish and focused on each other, treated a kid like an appendage.

[crescive]

Originally Posted by ssandra

As long as your child comes first, your lifestyle doesn´t matter!

This is my opinion, but one I think most people will agree with (and to quote Michael Chui: Obviously I am right, so anybody who disagrees must be wrong...).

You can be a single parent, have 3 wives and 6 husbands, work full time, be a stay at home mom or dad... your children will do fine as long as they are first, and receive unconditional love and attention!

From everything I have heard so far of children not being ok when they grow up later, it has to do with wrong focus of their parents. Not with the lifestyle itself!

I agree with this 100%. I align with the polyamorous philosophy and I don't think it should have a detrimental affect on children as long as the children always come first. Even if they're not my children, I would never want to come between the relationship between a child and their father. I would also not want to date any father who would put me before their own child. That is just wrong to me and anybody who wants to compete with a child has a lot more issues beneath the surface. If I was involved in a relationship with someone who had a kid, I would put their kid's needs above their needs because that would be the sort of relationship I'd want to have with their child. I would not be involved unless I bonded with their children.

I think in general there is a huge lack of disrespect towards children from adults. I definitely feel that there is a lot more that adults can learn from children than we give them credit for. Hasn't anyone read "The Little Prince" or any Roald Dahl when they were children? Well, read them now! Us adults should be empowering children and giving them unconditional love. Learn from children, they are closest to the eternal infinite. That is my opinion.

[Dan.Linehan]

Original post sounds like an issue with giving a child enough love, attention and respect, not an issue with polyamory.