Social issues with women

[pyrogen]

Hi folks.

I have social issues with women. I am 35 and female, myself.

The problem is always in all-female groups, not in mixed-sex groups; something about the dynamic of all-female groups trips me up.

I have trouble even in employment when it's all women.

It's not a general, debilitating social problem because I DON'T have trouble with mixed-sex groups, which is most of what I encounter out in society.

This happens in person and online - I am always being pulled aside, accused of taking up too much space, et cetera.

Online, I actually get told what I do wrong instead of being shunned - I'm told I come off arrogant/cocky/like a know it all. I don't mean to come off like this.

But in a mixed sex online group nobody seems to have a problem with me, although a lot of people might assume I'm male. In groups of people in real life I don't really have a problem as long as there are also men in the group.

When it's an all female group it ends up a problem, and I DATE women but am not skilled with them - I somehow seem to end up saying something that offends them and they never call me back or want to hear from me again. I've ended up losing female friends frequently too and have no idea what I did wrong. They end up uncomfortable or I break some kind of rule. I don't have a problem getting dates with guys when I'm single.

Maybe is it that women communicate differently and I come off bossy/authoritative or something instead of being cooperative/giving/soft? I am a very left-brained woman and very clinical in my thinking - I'm told I come off like I have no empathy or something and I don't know how to change this perception. Something about how I communicate reads differently to women in all-female environments than it does to women I am alone with, or women who are among men.

I'm fairly skilled with the dynamics of mixed sex groups, heck I even wrote a whole long paper (partly with humorous intent) about how to be a queen bee in a mixed group.

The problems are SPECIFICALLY with women. There is something about women's dynamics with other women, that I am just not getting. Maybe I need to be "softer" but I don't know how to be, in this context. Online I usually even get taken for a man!

I'm in a lot of mixed sex groups and the trouble is that I find my "offensive" behavior is getting reinforced by the men I'm around, maybe I need to take a break from mixed sex groups and try socializing just with women for a while so I can learn what to do.

It's nothing outrageous I do - I'm as polite as anyone else and I don't talk trash, cuss a lot, or act flagrantly inappropriate. There is something small I do that is a sin in womanland that's acceptable in manland or tolerated in mixedland.

Women often think I'm socially weird or awkward but men NEVER THINK SO!!

What is going on here?

[LordSappington]

I've also gone out to dinner with only women before, and even though I liked the women individually, collectively they were really nasty, horrible people. They started off making fun of a really good friend of mine and followed by completely trashing one of their friends behind her back. It made me feel really bad, so I told them to stop it. Of course, they didn't like that, but what was I to do? My female friends back me up on this; they often times hate large groups of women. So don't put all the blame on yourself. The social dynamic between women is very different than between men, and no matter how hard you try, you're always going to be recognized as not a woman.

That being said, there are probably things you're doing that just piss them off. Approach one of them you trust alone and ask her.

[RT Wolf]

Interesting question. It's probably something about the way women communicate with each other that you're not fulfilling their expectations or something. Interesting. If you're really looking for feedback, you'd proly do better by having some sort of sample of interaction. Buy/borrow/steal a camera and record yourself hanging out with people. If anyone asks about it, you can make some sort of joke about wanting to see how you look to other people, or wanting to feel like Jim Carrey in that movie where he's in a bubble. You don't have to post it here, but it may raise your awareness of what you've been doing.

[pyrogen]

Originally Posted by LordSappington

The social dynamic between women is very different than between men, and no matter how hard you try, you're always going to be recognized as not a woman.

You've proved my point! I AM a woman. I even said I was a chick.

(I mentioned in there that I'm ALWAYS read as a guy online, didn't I?)

[bunnyman]

You could read How to Be a Woman. It sounds like you are being male on some level.

It would be nice if some women could speak up in this thread now.

[cacheborn]

interesting. perhaps your thinking process is closer to the male psyche. Women tend to think very differently and it is impossible to guess about that. (I am a man, by the way) Women also have lots of nonverbal ways of communicating to each other. do you also tend to communicate nonverbally?

[Cyllya]

I know some people bond by talking to each other and some bond by doing an activity together. (And it's sort of a spectrum, so not everybody is at one extreme or the other.) It seems to be difficult for people at one end to get along with people in the other group. While there are exceptions, women tend to be in the first group while men to be in the latter.

So if you're an exception yourself, that may be a factor. If you hear them complaining about their job or boyfriend, you'll think they want some kind of advice, but they actually just want to vent and/or connect with you. They're not actually unhappy enough with the situation to care about changing it, and even if they were, that's not what they're trying to get out of talking to you.

On an unrelated note, it seems to me that people are more... polite?... or something in mixed-sex groups.

Women also have lots of nonverbal ways of communicating to each other. do you also tend to communicate nonverbally?

Hmm. What kind of nonverbal communication are you talking about? I've heard interesting factoids on how much of our communication is actually nonverbal but it never factored in gender.

[pyrogen]

Originally Posted by Cyllya

I know some people bond by talking to each other and some bond by doing an activity together. (And it's sort of a spectrum, so not everybody is at one extreme or the other.) It seems to be difficult for people at one end to get along with people in the other group. While there are exceptions, women tend to be in the first group while men to be in the latter.

This makes a LOT of sense - I seem to have made more female friends in settings of a common hobby (an art class, at the open studio, at the gym, doing exercise stuff) where the pretext is something we're doing together, rather than the setting being for socializing/talk in and of itself.

I really hadn't thought about before! I don't seem to have a problem with women I meet in the context of art stuff, at all! We usually are doing art stuff at the same time.

[cacheborn]

Hmm. What kind of nonverbal communication are you talking about? I've heard interesting factoids on how much of our communication is actually nonverbal but it never factored in gender.

I wish I knew, but I am guy
But almost all the literature on non verbal communication talks about 'women's intution'. For instance, this is what Body Language by Alan and barbara Paease says about women, "Overall, women are far more perceptive than men, and this has given rise to what is commonly referred to as woman's intution. Women have an innate ability to pick up and decipher non-verbal signals, as well as having an accurate eye for small details...... Research by psychologists at Harvard University showed.... short films, with the sound turned off, of a man and woman communicating, and the participants were asked to decode what was happening by reading the couple's expressions. The research showed that women read the situation accurately 87% of the time while the men scored only 42% accuracy."

[The Cloud]

Women tend to emphasize connection, while men tend to emphasize status. For example, it's really easy for most women to ask for directions because that increases connection, but it's terribly difficult for most men because it weakens status. Conversely, it's usually much easier for men to speak up in group discussions because it doesn't violate status to do so, as opposed to women who avoid doing so because it singles them out and may decrease connection.

Maybe you're more status-driven than most women, which would disrupt the dynamic of what is expected to be a connection-driven group of women. I can't speak from personal experience, since I'm a man and thus automatically never in an all-woman group, but I can see where that would mess with the social expectations. That might explain your lack of "empathy," which could actually be a lack of consideration for connection versus status. I've certainly had female friends be disgruntled with my preference for giving advice instead of sympathy when they come to me with problems.

On the bright side, I'm sure the men in your life appreciate that you are so much easier to understand than most women .

[polyfulcrum]

I am one, I date them too. It's been my experience that women, especially in groups, are somewhat passive-agressive in the way they communicate. If you are a woman that is more direct and clear in your communication style, you don't fit well with the average group of women.

Atypical femininity of this sort is much less confusing to men than the standard approach, so you'll also find other women upset with you because, for no discernable reason (to their way of operating), you'll get more attention and favor from men in the area.

On the flipside, you've already discovered that with a distraction activity, that diffuses a lot of that. I'd also say that, while we might be the minority, there are still quite a few women that prefer a less ambiguous style of interaction. This is one of those "build your own community" sort of opportunites. Find them and bring them together!

[pyrogen]

Not going to quote all that, it's a mouthful (if you're typing, does that make it a handful? An eyeful?).

Interesting stuff you point out!! I hadn't really thought of a lot of that. I'm not really aware of how I communicate or how I sound to other women. I know that I can come off opinionated or like a know-it-all but it's always women who point that out to me. My women friends all tend to be *older* women, somehow it's more acceptable for a woman to be opinionated when she is over 40.

Could also be a cultural thing too, I notice that I have more female friends who are Jewish, I think it's more acceptable w/in Jewish culture for women to be more opinionated and direct (I'm Jewish too and was raised with a mom who herself is like this). Women at my mom's synagogue aren't anything like the women out in the general world. They all take up a lot of space, compete for who has the loudest voice and can talk the most, and it's the men who seem to be quieter. Completely the reverse of the non Jewish world...

My partner started life as female, and one of the most maddening things about the relationship is that he is totally sensitive and hates when I express strong feelings about anything... thinks I am yelling, being angry or aggressive when I'm NOT! I'm not even yelling!

You're right, about forming my own group - I seem to have done best when I formed a group in which I was the organizer/moderator, rather than trying to fit myself into an existing group... maybe I just have more of a "Queen Bee" personality. I seem to always end up pissing off the Queen Bee of any group I try to actually fit into. On all-female boards (I got kicked off a wedding planning board once!) I usually end up with the oldest/most established members getting angry, not the other noobs.

Edited to add:

Maybe it IS a Jewish thing, because while I find myself sometimes overwhelmed by the strong personalities of my mom and her Jewish female friends, *I* perceive *them* the way that Anglo women seem to perceive *me*.

[LordSappington]

Wow, I feel like an idiot now. For some reason, I read that you were a bisexual guy because I completely missed that first paragraph. That teaches me to reply to messages while simultaneously baking dinner and chatting with other people online.

It has been my observation that the social dynamic of women is very hierarchical. There is an alpha female, and everyone sort of does whatever she does. In larger groups, there are various other secondary females who simultaneously admire but secretly (and not so secretly) hate the alpha female. I've definitely seen female groups that don't conform to this stereotype; as a guy, I enjoy those women much, much more because they lack all of the melodrama. I also have female friends who despise the jealous, catty groups. Maybe you're hanging around with the wrong people.

But maybe you want to maintain your relationship with these people. I can imagine that if you were oblivious to these boundaries, you could definitely step out of line and assert yourself more than was permitted. I'd wager that the majority of nastiness that happens between women arises out of jealousy. What could you be doing to make the other women jealous?

[Magicinthenight]

Have you asked the women who have shunned your company why they are doing it? Or alternatively, ask the women you know what they think, maybe they'll have some answers as to what aspects of your behaviour have caused these reactions. You might even find out it's nothing to do with you, personally.

We don't see the way you interact so it's difficult to tell you why you get the results you do. It could be that you're hanging out with the wrong people, it could be that you're doing something others find offensive, or it could just be misunderstandings from all sides.

Since you said women pick up on things that you do that they find awkward but men never do, it might be that you do things that women find as socially bad behavour but have come to accept that men do these things without realising but have a hard time accepting a woman who does the same mistakes?

[Angela]

Pyrogen, it's not them; it's you. It looks like you've got a pretty good sense of that. It also looks like you're torn between wanting to make changes in yourself that works better (being at cause), or being resigned about the situation because women "always" (but men "never") do this or that (being at effect of external circumstance.)

My suggestion to you is choose now. Will it work better in your life to be at cause or at effect?

You've labeled yourself as a Queen Bee here twice and also elsewhere on the forum, and you've also made some declarations about what you are and what others are (labels and judgements) that effectively lock yourself and others into how you and they occur for you as "reality." Being really at cause would take letting everyone out of the box.

If you want to really have some influence in this situation, I recommend becoming more flexible in how you see yourself and how you see women, and practice letting go of always's and nevers. Allow yourself the freedom to try on a new way of being that might work better and create what you WANT to create in relationship with women. For instance, I think you've already noticed that being attached to being "Queen Bee" often creates an alpha, power-over vibe that works well with many men but works poorly with many women. What might be possible in your relationship with women if you were to let go of being queen bee and take on something that would make a difference, and inspires you?

The people who declare, "well, that's just who I am and I'm not gonna go changing just because other people can't handle me" -- they get to feel "right", but they don't often get to feel very effective, influential, or in love with their lives. What they do get to feel is often: "others need to change before I will be satisfied and fulfilled" which often leads to "Life is hard." Because, of course, you can wait an awfully long time for others to change. But you -- you can change in the blink of an eye. You don't have to, of course. Choosing to remain at the effect of external circumstance is a perfectly valid choice. In my experience, it doesn't work very well in being in love with life, but that doesn't stop masses of people from living there!

So, choose. What are you willing to let go of, and what are you willing to generate, to get where you want to be?

[gingerbaker]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

Not going to quote all that, it's a mouthful (if you're typing, does that make it a handful? An eyeful?).

Interesting stuff you point out!! I hadn't really thought of a lot of that. I'm not really aware of how I communicate or how I sound to other women. I know that I can come off opinionated or like a know-it-all but it's always women who point that out to me. My women friends all tend to be *older* women, somehow it's more acceptable for a woman to be opinionated when she is over 40.

Could also be a cultural thing too, I notice that I have more female friends who are Jewish, I think it's more acceptable w/in Jewish culture for women to be more opinionated and direct (I'm Jewish too and was raised with a mom who herself is like this). Women at my mom's synagogue aren't anything like the women out in the general world. They all take up a lot of space, compete for who has the loudest voice and can talk the most, and it's the men who seem to be quieter. Completely the reverse of the non Jewish world...

My partner started life as female, and one of the most maddening things about the relationship is that he is totally sensitive and hates when I express strong feelings about anything... thinks I am yelling, being angry or aggressive when I'm NOT! I'm not even yelling!

You're right, about forming my own group - I seem to have done best when I formed a group in which I was the organizer/moderator, rather than trying to fit myself into an existing group... maybe I just have more of a "Queen Bee" personality. I seem to always end up pissing off the Queen Bee of any group I try to actually fit into. On all-female boards (I got kicked off a wedding planning board once!) I usually end up with the oldest/most established members getting angry, not the other noobs.

Edited to add:

Maybe it IS a Jewish thing, because while I find myself sometimes overwhelmed by the strong personalities of my mom and her Jewish female friends, *I* perceive *them* the way that Anglo women seem to perceive *me*.

I think you have hit on a number of well reasoned explanations throughout this thread, and possibly a few workable solutions as well (such as focusing more on activity-oriented groups).

The "Jewish woman" thing I *had* to remark on! I remember well when a coworker and friend was readying for aliyah, and in having a conversation with her on it, it was mentioned that she and her husband were taking classes in preparation. Okay, not overly surpsring there....but what WAS surprising was finding out several of those classes had to do with cultural training such as learning not to stand in line, to press up to the front of the counter, raise your voice, and get pushy if you wanted any service LOL. Just thought I'd share!

[aelle]

I have a similar pattern going on. I feel very ill-at-ease in all-feminine groups, don't manage to bond with others in these situations and either get alienated or alienate myself. However, being a mechanical engineer, hanging around in very geeky communities or with other "ladybro" type girls, that happens very rarely and I haven't had the opportunity or the desire to fix it. I don't think I have been in an all-feminine group since high school, actually.

I had reached the conclusion that I have a problem with women who prefer to associate with other women exclusively, not with all women. I'll keep reading this thread, there are interesting thoughts here.

[lasti]

Originally Posted by bunnyman

It would be nice if some women could speak up in this thread now.

I hang around with both male, female and mixed groups and have never felt a difference, so I can't say anything about that. It's all the same to me.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by aelle

I have a similar pattern going on. I feel very ill-at-ease in all-feminine groups, don't manage to bond with others in these situations and either get alienated or alienate myself. However, being a mechanical engineer, hanging around in very geeky communities or with other "ladybro" type girls, that happens very rarely and I haven't had the opportunity or the desire to fix it. I don't think I have been in an all-feminine group since high school, actually.

I had reached the conclusion that I have a problem with women who prefer to associate with other women exclusively, not with all women. I'll keep reading this thread, there are interesting thoughts here.

Aelle, your post really struck me, because it's as if you are hypnotizing yourself and cementing within your subconscious the "truth" of these beliefs. I recognize that you have reasons for believing them, and I'm not trying to convince you that they're not true -- simply asking you to look at the power of your own expression as a means of keeping them in place.

What if you, or anyone else who holds a belief like "I don't get along with women as well as I do with men" were to, just for a moment, try on a belief that might work better? You might feel just fine with the beliefs you have, and I'm not asking you to change them; I am suggesting that if you would like to make a difference in the situation, you might try to tell the story in a way that works well for you.

Can you see where what I'm suggesting might work, if you'd like to get things moving in another direction?

[selkis]

Originally Posted by Angela

So, choose. What are you willing to let go of, and what are you willing to generate, to get where you want to be?

That's a great piece of advice! I have to think it through twice, or even three times. Anyway, I have a similar problem, although the other way around - I'm a woman and usually I get along well with all-female groups. However, all-male cast is a problem in my case. And there some deep issues running here.

[LordSappington]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

Hi folks.
When it's an all female group it ends up a problem, and I DATE women but am not skilled with them - I somehow seem to end up saying something that offends them and they never call me back or want to hear from me again. I've ended up losing female friends frequently too and have no idea what I did wrong.

I'm going to try to salvage my unfortunate oversight by offering some insight I have gained, although it's not much. I'm a guy, and I get this *all the time*. I've had several women, some of them quite close friends, suddenly and inexplicably stop talking to me without any explanation. I still don't know what I did wrong.

One thing I have figured out that I do wrong is try to offer advice. Here is a conversation I might have:

Her: Sometimes, I don't like the way that Julie treats me.
Me: Really? What happens.
Her: She's just ignores me to spend time with her boyfriend.

As a guy, I interpret this as "I want to spend more time with Julie and don't know what to do." But here's probably what she really means, "I feel slighted and upset that Julie is ignoring me and need reassurance that I'm a good person." If you try to offer advice in this situation, she's likely to get angry at you because you're subtly suggesting that she's not doing everything right, which only reinforces her insecurity. Instead, I try to consciously focus on how it makes me or her feel and talk about that. To me, a lot of this feels like playing games in which I always lose, but my female friends tell me that's just how it's going to go so I have to learn.

I should note that there are certain women I know who I offer advice to a lot and they tell me that they value it tremendously. But I know them very well, and we have very good lines of communication to begin with.

[selkis]

Originally Posted by LordSappington

If you try to offer advice in this situation, she's likely to get angry at you because you're subtly suggesting that she's not doing everything right, which only reinforces her insecurity. Instead, I try to consciously focus on how it makes me or her feel and talk about that. To me, a lot of this feels like playing games in which I always lose, but my female friends tell me that's just how it's going to go so I have to learn.

Good point. It's more important to allow the other person to talk about her feelings and emotions connected with the upsetting situation. In a way, while talking about it, she may reach some valuable conclusions herself. And that's way much better than just offering straight-to-the-point piece of advice, methinks

[jaamkie]

another woman here who doesn't quite understand all-female groups. though I'm different in that I always feel I get along fine with other women, just disconnected and like I don't get beyond superficial politeness to genuine connection- sometimes it feels quite overt within the first few minutes of chatting with other women written off as too odd or something, then treated quite kindly but not with any real warmth. then when I do occasionally have a flash of connection with a woman, it feels so unusual and intense, I freak out a bit and don't know how to continue the relationship into a durable normal friendship. not sure how I ended up with social phobia about women/friendships instead of men/dating- I'm fearless on dates with men, confident in connecting with them, and capable of continuing the relationship or letting it go as circumstances dictate, yet I'm insecure and anxious about getting to know other women. currently joining MENSA, planning on going to the events and forcing myself focus my energy on meeting women- the events sound like fun and like they'd attract others with shared interests, and the structure of planned social events would help me force myself to interact with mostly women, while in my techie career I don't get much opportunity to do so.

[pyrogen]

After reading all of you guys/gals, and thinking also, "if someone else said this, what would I tell them?" (I have lots of my own social theories, I decided to apply them to my own problem).

I've figured out that the problem is, is that I have a communication style that's often seen by women as being combative. I don't spend enough time building parity/commonality with other women, when in a new group, before jumping in with my opinions and long windedness. Also, I've noticed now in groups of women that they often have a heirarchic idea of who gets to take up the conversational space; they often pay more attention to "who says it" than to what's being said. I'm going into a situation where there are established queen bees, and instead of establishing parity with the other "worker bees" I'm jumping in with a communication style that's perceived as competitive/combative.

I notice in groups of men that "who gets to do the talking" isn't strictly in the hands of one person.

Finally, Angela: regarding the 'Queen Bee' thing - I've actually never said I've been that all the time or even most of the time; I've just had about two social settings where I was the QB. When I was a LOT younger, too. Now, at 35, it seems like most social settings I go into, are pretty established.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

Finally, Angela: regarding the 'Queen Bee' thing - I've actually never said I've been that all the time or even most of the time; I've just had about two social settings where I was the QB. When I was a LOT younger, too.

Okay, got it.

Now, at 35, it seems like most social settings I go into, are pretty established.

What does this sentence mean? what or who is established?

[bluedragon]

if even women have trouble dating women...
I don't know why some of the women you date stop answering the phone and don't want to hear from you. I'm sure it has more to do with them. I'm still investigating this weird habit some people have of not wanting to talk to someone again - luckily, it doesn't really happen to me. But if it would, I would probably wait for the person somewhere I knew she was bound to be, with a chocolate or something, and ask her about it. It may sound crazy, but I can't stand the idea of a relationship ending out of the blue. Anyway, there is surely a solution to this - and the solution has to reside in the interaction that goes on while you are WITH that person, face to face.

[pyrogen]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

if even women have trouble dating women...
I don't know why some of the women you date stop answering the phone and don't want to hear from you. I'm sure it has more to do with them.

I'm starting to think that the communities I've been in, just haven't been very open minded/conscious, and not very tolerant to mix of communication styles - I really am starting to think there's much to be said for mixed-gender communities. I really haven't seen a women-only group that's filled with very conscious members yet, all the ones I've been in (JUST MY EXPERIENCE - not generalizing) have been filled with people who were fearful, hypersensitive and narrow minded. I wonder what gender-segregated groups on this forum (like if there were a "men's lounge" "ladies' lounge" board for each) would look like, if even highly conscious people would fall into the same traps they get into in gender-segregated groups.