A 'Pick Up Artist' is ultimately a 'Con Artist' in the arena of the sexual predator

[Johnny Soporno]

For the last couple of years, I've been actively campaigning against the glorification of "Pick Up Artists":

Here is an audience bootleg video of my first 5 minutes of my address to the +/- 600 attendees at 'The Real Man Conference' in Amsterdam in September '08 -
Johnny Soporno on the RMC

In it I explain that PICK UP ARTISTS are the CON ARTISTS of the 'Sexual Predator' arena.

Throughout history, whenever someone was ACCUSED of being a 'Pick Up Artist' he'd back-peddle and deny it.

"I wasn't playing games with her emotions, just trying to have sex with her, without offering to make an 'honest woman' out of her...."

But society's unwitting 'Sexual Cartel' has always insisted that a woman is ONLY supposed to have sex with a man in exchange for his providing her with SECURITY - ideally by marrying her, and committing to support her for life.

So a Pick Up Artist essentially CONS a woman into considering him as someone who is offering her ongoing security - but he is actually just trying to get into her pants, without a care for her feeling used and abused - leaving her to publicly decry the Pick Up Artist for being the scoundrel he was, in an effort to save-face for having been duped.

Now I'm not criticizing learning "Pick Up" theory or skills - I believe that most men were taught to be timid of and anti-social with women, and NEED to learn that women are not 'the enemy' - that IT'S OKAY to meet them and learn about them and let them learn about you, without compunction.

What I'm concerned with are men who believe that they want to BECOME A "PICK UP ARTIST" .

When being a 'PUA' becomes their goal, they stop being cool and they become creepy.

Instead of becoming socially calibrated, and comfortable enough in themselves simply to introduce themselves to women - they begin to treat the affection of women as a method of proving themselves TO OTHER MEN and they stop viewing women as PEOPLE, and instead view them as TROPHIES.

Men who look at women as 'HB8.5' or "UG5" are beneath us. They are CREEPY, because they are not trying to enjoy the company of people who attract them, to share themselves with the objects of their desire; they are looking to impress other men with their ability to dupe externally-appraised trophies into 'putting out'.

Please check my post on 'The NATURAL alternative to 'Rating Women' if this is at all unclear!

To summarize, people who THINK OF THEMSELVES AS "PICK UP ARTISTS" are creepy.

Don't be creepy.

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[seeker5]

That's an interesting post Johnny! I've checked out different PUA material online, and read through some journals of some PUA and a lot of it has come off to me as manipulative, condescending and I don't resonate with it.

[jaamkie]

I totally agree, and I think what makes Johnny resonate differently than the creepy-macho guys that call themselves PUA is HONESTY. What I appreciate about the "seduction community" thing is if it can help some men become more honest with women- to honestly put himself out there and express what he wants instead of quietly creeping around with ulterior motives- acting like a friend while wanting sex and/or love, acting like a "nice guy" when he wants attention, acting distant when he wants closeness, or even acting like he just wants friends-with-benefits when he really wants a relationship- all out of lack of confidence or on the mistaken assumption that he has to bribe women into fulfilling his needs.

[Xanafax]

I just wanna say that I am totally interested in just sex. At the moment relationships are secondary, or even tertiary (can you imagine my first too motives )

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Xanafax

I just wanna say that I am totally interested in just sex. At the moment relationships are secondary, or even tertiary (can you imagine my first too motives )

Nothing wrong with that at all.

I think the key is to recognize that there are women who want the same, perhaps more than most people realize. And it's easier to find/attract them if you're honest about what you want.

[Xanafax]

Your right Steve, I will say - it won't be a surprise to the smart-arse amateur psychologists on the forum - that I have virtually no experience with women but I believe that, after viewing many of my friends in their relationships, I don't want anything to with relationships just yet.

[jaamkie]

Originally Posted by Xanafax

I just wanna say that I am totally interested in just sex. At the moment relationships are secondary, or even tertiary (can you imagine my first too motives )

as long as your first motive is to be an authentic person who respects others, I have no problem with someone wanting sex not a relationship- the problem is when men use "techniques" to mislead women into thinking they want one thing when they really want another. Actually my memorably worst interactions with men have been finding out the men really wanted a relationship after at first pretending they only wanted sex-and-friendship with a non-needy independent girl. Need to be careful what we wish for- cos we just might get it!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Xanafax

I just wanna say that I am totally interested in just sex. At the moment relationships are secondary, or even tertiary (can you imagine my first too motives )

The thing is, if you're having sex with someone, you are indeed having a relationship with herm. It may be a very short relationship, and there may not be much more than physical relating going on, but there is relationship.

The question is, it's never (or very, very rarely) just physical. At the very least, there is some courtesy involved, which is emotional relationship. There's nothing wrong with consensual, no-strings sex, but are you going to be a baboon or a robot about it? Even a one-night stand is a great chance to practice effective relating.

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by jaamkie

As long as your first motive is to be an authentic person who respects others, I have no problem with someone wanting sex not a relationship

Brava - a perfectly enlightened perspective

Originally Posted by jaamkie

Actually my memorably worst interactions with men have been finding out the men really wanted a relationship after at first pretending they only wanted sex-and-friendship with a non-needy independent girl.

I can understand that! - But are you certain their interest in you didn't change from the outset?

Most guys are not confident enough in themselves to state the plain truth about emotional issues, and some would likely contrive that their desires for you were ALWAYS to have a 'serious relationship', even if they had actually modified over time, through becoming more emotionally and sexually dependent on you?

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[jaamkie]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

I can understand that! - But are you certain their interest in you didn't change from the outset?

Most guys are not confident enough in themselves to state the plain truth about emotional issues, and some would likely contrive that their desires for you were ALWAYS to have a 'serious relationship', even if they had actually modified over time, through becoming more emotionally and sexually dependent on you?

God knows what they each were thinking, but for all 4 it happened fairly quickly- days to weeks- from meeting and connecting/having fun together, to communicating I wasn't looking for a relationship- them agreeing they were fine with that and enjoyed me as a friend, to hanging out and getting physical once or a few times, to them clingingly overwhelming me and eventually explicitly saying they wanted a relationship, to me rejecting them, to them pouting in silence and me loosing a friendship with someone I enjoyed. I think they probably all in reality wanted a relationship, and had the stupid preconception that ALL women are ALWAYS the ones pursuing emotional relationships and commitment, so assumed if I could enjoy them physically, I must be otherwise attracted and want a relationship.

Probably part of it is that I'm a computer geek- all of these guys were in geeky fields, all overweight, all very sweet men in a needy way, all accustomed to being the "smart one". But they didn't have broad enough intellectual interests for me, so I just wanted to enjoy their companionship for what it was and not force myself to settle for someone who couldn't challenge or teach me anything. I guess it's happened a few additional times even when agreeing to officially "date" the guy- the feeling that I've run through the extent of their knowledge and opinions and ideas, and am stuck on boring reruns.

(Luckily I've got a great guy now who's always surprising me with his thoughts )

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by jaamkie

God knows what they each were thinking, but for all 4 it happened fairly quickly- days to weeks- from meeting and connecting/having fun together, to communicating I wasn't looking for a relationship- them agreeing they were fine with that and enjoyed me as a friend, to hanging out and getting physical once or a few times, to them clingingly overwhelming me and eventually explicitly saying they wanted a relationship, to me rejecting them, to them pouting in silence and me loosing a friendship with someone I enjoyed. I think they probably all in reality wanted a relationship, and had the stupid preconception that ALL women are ALWAYS the ones pursuing emotional relationships and commitment, so assumed if I could enjoy them physically, I must be otherwise attracted and want a relationship.

Sounds to me like they honestly thought they could handle a non-relationship type of sex-friendship with you, and then once they actually tasted the fruit, they got too clingy on you. You were probably the only woman they were physical at the time, and they probably hadn't had anyone they liked as much as you for a while...?

[Savage]

Originally Posted by jaamkie

God knows what they each were thinking, but for all 4 it happened fairly quickly- days to weeks- from meeting and connecting/having fun together, to communicating I wasn't looking for a relationship- them agreeing they were fine with that and enjoyed me as a friend, to hanging out and getting physical once or a few times, to them clingingly overwhelming me and eventually explicitly saying they wanted a relationship, to me rejecting them, to them pouting in silence and me loosing a friendship with someone I enjoyed. I think they probably all in reality wanted a relationship, and had the stupid preconception that ALL women are ALWAYS the ones pursuing emotional relationships and commitment, so assumed if I could enjoy them physically, I must be otherwise attracted and want a relationship.

Probably part of it is that I'm a computer geek- all of these guys were in geeky fields, all overweight, all very sweet men in a needy way, all accustomed to being the "smart one". But they didn't have broad enough intellectual interests for me, so I just wanted to enjoy their companionship for what it was and not force myself to settle for someone who couldn't challenge or teach me anything. I guess it's happened a few additional times even when agreeing to officially "date" the guy- the feeling that I've run through the extent of their knowledge and opinions and ideas, and am stuck on boring reruns.

(Luckily I've got a great guy now who's always surprising me with his thoughts )

I can understand that. A lot of people who work in geeky fields aren't very in-tune with their emotions -- they tend to be a lot more head-centered than heart-centered. The guys may not have intended any deception. They may simply have been unaware of what they wanted. They may have also felt like you were their only shot at a decent relationship (scarcity thinking), so they'd better grab onto you while they have the chance.

I met some women like this in college. I majored in Comp Sci and Math, so most of my female friends were fellow geeks. Even though they had plenty of guys in their life (the M-F ratio was like 8-to-1 in those fields), when they got a relationship they often became super clingy, probably because they didn't trust their social skills to be able to land them a new one if the first one didn't work out.

[jaamkie]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

I can understand that. A lot of people who work in geeky fields aren't very in-tune with their emotions -- they tend to be a lot more head-centered than heart-centered. The guys may not have intended any deception. They may simply have been unaware of what they wanted. They may have also felt like you were their only shot at a decent relationship (scarcity thinking), so they'd better grab onto you while they have the chance.

I met some women like this in college. I majored in Comp Sci and Math, so most of my female friends were fellow geeks. Even though they had plenty of guys in their life (the M-F ratio was like 8-to-1 in those fields), when they got a relationship they often became super clingy, probably because they didn't trust their social skills to be able to land them a new one if the first one didn't work out.

Yes that's probably very accurate- I don't think they were intentionally deceptive, but I felt they weren't really listening to me, but were projecting their preconceptions of romance and relationships and "women" instead. All of them were very focused on pleasing me, completely ignorning their own desires/interests, and thought I should be pleased with their submission and efforts and willingness to give more than receive.

I feel like I tend to attract more submissive men, though I'm actually quite uncomfortable being dominant in a relationship, and avoid those relationships if I realize that's how the dynamic is evolving. I feel like these submissive low-confidence "nice" guys don't respect themselves and the validity of their own desires, which tempts me to not respect them either, which is ultimately a huge turn-off. I've also met older men who want to treat me as a "princess"- they seem to respect their own opinions, but choose to put their resources in my hands as a gift because it amuses them to have a pet. I've never gone far in these relationships either, because I don't want to be someone's toy and I find there are always subjects where older men presume to know better than me and condescendingly try to "teach" me though I never asked to be their "protege".

I prefer a equal push-and-pull of debate and attraction and giving, not competitive or equally-needy, but rather that each partner takes responsibility for ther own life and feelings and desires, has the independence to be honest, to give generously with no expectation of reciprocation, and to walk away before accepting mistreatment. Maybe it's not that I attract submissive men so much as it is that I don't even get into relationships with men that expect to dominate/lead- I've gone out on dates with men that expect to lead relationships- they expect the woman to chase them a bit while they mess around and act distant, so when I don't cling and demand commitment, they don't follow up either and we end up mutually-respectful friends but neither one wanting a relationship with the other.

[Zygor]

In summary this post explains nearly every problem I have with the traditional "pickup community".
Great job Johnny

[James81]

I think the PUA community is like all other areas of personal development. Most of the "teachers" (the ones writing e-books, giving seminars, etc.) mainly focus on the right things (learning to set boundaries, facing your fears of approaching and talking to women, etc.), but the people who seek these materials tend to be self-serving, wanting the "easy" route to what they want without actually doing the work of making it an internal, natural lifestyle.

So I wouldn't attack PUA so much as I would attack the insecure guys who misinterpret it.

Although, i'll admit there are some really sleezy PUA products out there. But most of the stuff I've read has almost always encouraged finding ways to be natural about internalizing the changes and the people who follow it just misconstrue and twist it.

[Zygor]

I think the PUA community is like all other areas of personal development. Most of the "teachers" (the ones writing e-books, giving seminars, etc.) mainly focus on the right things (learning to set boundaries, facing your fears of approaching and talking to women, etc.), but the people who seek these materials tend to be self-serving, wanting the "easy" route to what they want without actually doing the work of making it an internal, natural lifestyle.

Thats why PUA websites have 10,000's+ of members and less than 500 actually get girls.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Zygor

Thats why PUA websites have 10,000's+ of members and less than 500 actually get girls.

Probably even less than that. Heck, those websites (I've been to a couple of them) have more keyboard jockeys than anything else. lol And I've also noticed that they tend to attract a large base from high school kids or really young college students. Which, personally, I don't think most of them are really old enough or mature enough to grasp the aspects of PUA that are more lasting and real.

When the goal is just "sex," most are not willing to go through the intense amount of work it takes to become natural at it and not make it some kind of creepy thing just for sex. It's usually the ones who are beyond that and are ready for some form of relationship that truly "get" what needs to happen in their lives.

[Orecle]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

For the last couple of years, I've been actively campaigning against the glorification of "Pick Up Artists":

Here is an audience bootleg video of my first 5 minutes of my address to the +/- 600 attendees at 'The Real Man Conference' in Amsterdam in September '08 -
Johnny Soporno on the RMC

In it I explain that PICK UP ARTISTS are the CON ARTISTS of the 'Sexual Predator' arena.

Throughout history, whenever someone was ACCUSED of being a 'Pick Up Artist' he'd back-peddle and deny it.

"I wasn't playing games with her emotions, just trying to have sex with her, without offering to make an 'honest woman' out of her...."

But society's unwitting 'Sexual Cartel' has always insisted that a woman is ONLY supposed to have sex with a man in exchange for his providing her with SECURITY - ideally by marrying her, and committing to support her for life.

So a Pick Up Artist essentially CONS a woman into considering him as someone who is offering her ongoing security - but he is actually just trying to get into her pants, without a care for her feeling used and abused - leaving her to publicly decry the Pick Up Artist for being the scoundrel he was, in an effort to save-face for having been duped.

Women do the same to men all the time. How many men have been scammed for their money and gifts, and not got anywhere near the pants? How many men have tried to provide a woman with security just for the girl to ditch for the school/college/ workplace/neighbourhood a**hole who she knows has multiple women. I know you are a very social guy, and I have seen the stunning women on your mysppace, are you telling me that none of them have ever used a man for dinner, gifts or cash.

ps. To be fair i have personally seen men beg to be used, even when the woman is being completely disrespectful. So men that try the other tactic of buying a womans time get medium sympathy from me. Lets face it, this seems to be the default option of choice wen a man has no skills

A good friend of mine was bodyguarding a super rich banker in a fancy club up west end. The client saw a stunning super model, and proceeded to buy her 9 bottles of champayne at £500 (this was way before credit crunch) and a £10,000 watch that the club were selling. Anyway, my friend is a 16 stone lump of muscle, so she starts to hit on him to make the banker jealous. My mate completely ignores her. After 2 hrs and 3 bottles of champs, she is virtually in tears openly begging my friend for sex. The banker is vex, cos he has been embarassed infront of his friends, and the fact that my mate was not interested made it worse. End of the night, she kept the watch, my mate completly lost it with the model for her to go away, so he can keep his job hich was making him £400 per night, which to a bouncer is like 2 - 3 nights work.

I gym in a men only gym in London, the amount of bouncers that have told me they have slept with women in the managers office, while the boyfriend is shaking his ass on the dance floor is horrifying. Women are NOT 100% sweet, nice and made with sugar and spice!

ps. I really like your vid

Now I'm not criticizing learning "Pick Up" theory or skills - I believe that most men were taught to be timid of and anti-social with women, and NEED to learn that women are not 'the enemy' - that IT'S OKAY to meet them and learn about them and let them learn about you, without compunction.

What I'm concerned with are men who believe that they want to BECOME A "PICK UP ARTIST" .

When being a 'PUA' becomes their goal, they stop being cool and they become creepy.

Instead of becoming socially calibrated, and comfortable enough in themselves simply to introduce themselves to women - they begin to treat the affection of women as a method of proving themselves TO OTHER MEN and they stop viewing women as PEOPLE, and instead view them as TROPHIES.

Men who look at women as 'HB8.5' or "UG5" are beneath us. They are CREEPY, because they are not trying to enjoy the company of people who attract them, to share themselves with the objects of their desire; they are looking to impress other men with their ability to dupe externally-appraised trophies into 'putting out'.

Please check my post on 'The NATURAL alternative to 'Rating Women' if this is at all unclear!

To summarize, people who THINK OF THEMSELVES AS "PICK UP ARTISTS" are creepy.

Don't be creepy.

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[/QUOTE]


I agree with you about the creepy thing, I had a rant on Steves David D post about guys who spend 7 years learning pick up, like they are learning to be Jedi, and then they become very cultist elitist like the NLP folk were ding a few years back. They become super obsessed with it , and then jump on this forum and make extreme statements. Its funny when you see a 19 yr quoting their favourite teacher of the moment verbatim

I am not entirely in agreement about the ratings things. To rate and rank is a normal human tool. Mercedes ranks higher the ford. Bentley ranks higher than chrysler. In fact all European cars rank better than American( i live in Europe so I am being biased)

Your system serves the same purpose as a 1 - 10 sytem

Women rank men all the time, even with the 1 to 10 thing, so I dont see the harm in it being vice versa. I think its an automatic human reaction, whether its a basic system of 1 - 10 or a system of - not all that , to average , to hot, to stunning(like some of the women in your myspace) Ranking is not new, we all grew up with it. Helps sort out what peeks interest, to what you want, to what you really want .

ie. I would rank Steve as the best online motivator/ PD teacher on the net. Now if that makes other motivators feel bad well, sorry? this is the world we live in? They have a chance to impress me like steve does, if they require my business. it makes no differnce if I say "I Definately recommend Steve, to I partially recommend the other guy. If I give Steve 9.759 and the other teacher 5.5, it does the same thing to the person listening. In fact I will argue the numerical scale would provide better clarity

and the same applies to both males and females where dating is concerned.

Originally Posted by James81

I think the PUA community is like all other areas of personal development. Most of the "teachers" (the ones writing e-books, giving seminars, etc.) mainly focus on the right things (learning to set boundaries, facing your fears of approaching and talking to women, etc.), but the people who seek these materials tend to be self-serving, wanting the "easy" route to what they want without actually doing the work of making it an internal, natural lifestyle.

So I wouldn't attack PUA so much as I would attack the insecure guys who misinterpret it.

Although, i'll admit there are some really sleezy PUA products out there. But most of the stuff I've read has almost always encouraged finding ways to be natural about internalizing the changes and the people who follow it just misconstrue and twist it.

I completely agree with this post

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Orecle

A good friend of mine was bodyguarding a super rich banker in a fancy club up west end. The client saw a stunning super model, and proceeded to buy her 9 bottles of champayne at £500 (this was way before credit crunch) and a £10,000 watch that the club were selling.

This may be unsympathetic, but any man who buys a woman he has just met nine bottles of champagne and a $10,000 watch, just because she's hot or famous is a tool.

Also, nine bottles? Even if the woman was a drinking champion, after the second she would barely be able to hold her head up, let alone beg the bodyguard for sex.

So presumably he was buying it for all her mates as well, in the hope that she was going to take one for the team and shag him. What a joke. No wonder she hit on the bodyguard... he wasn't so desperate that he was trying to buy sex by getting a girl drunk beyond comprehension.

[TonyToneTone]

There seems to be some flaws in your logic:

1. There are some women who just want to have sex as well. Not every woman is looking for a long term relationship.

2. How is it a con if you are being honest about your situation?

If you are as good as you say with women, I would consider you a PUA. You definitely have made an art out of pick-up. Does that make you a con artist?

If I am misunderstanding what you are getting at, please let me know. It's like you are saying two different things. First, it looks like you are attacking PUAs. Then it looks like you are focusing on guys instead who want to be PUAs.

[MillenniumMike]

This looks like a polarizing attack within the Pick Up Community. This thread essentially is attacking indirect game. I have not used indirect game for years and I feel it has been dispatched to the mainstream media, an example being the TV show "The Pick Up Artist." Looking at "Authentic" methods of attracting women is not new either; RSD and Love Systems do the same. On the West Coast there is a group called the "Authentic Men Program" created be female PUA teachers along with a few guys. The idea of teaching authenticity and natural game is preposterous; the point of being authentic or natural is that you learned it on your own and through experience.

At the beginning I mentioned it as a polarizing attack, many people looking at the thread may agree and resent mainstream pick up. Most PUA's who were taught by naturals or other experienced PUA's (for free) tend to do the best. Now on some level I do agree mainstream pick up has a huge pitfall of making people social robots, which the thread reveals however I feel this at its root is a sales pitch.

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by Orecle

Women do the same to men all the time. How many men have been scammed for their money and gifts, and not got anywhere near the pants? How many men have tried to provide a woman with security just for the girl to ditch for the school/college/ workplace/neighbourhood a**hole who she knows has multiple women. I know you are a very social guy, and I have seen the stunning women on your myspace, are you telling me that none of them have ever used a man for dinner, gifts or cash?

You're absolutely correct; most men set themselves up to be taken advantage of constantly by women they find attractive, because they buy-in to the notion that every woman is looking for a man who can display how IMPRESSIVE he is through displays of magnanimity and wealth.
What these men fail to realize that AT HER CORE every [straight] woman wants to be INTERESTED IN, AND ATTRACTED TO a man because of his character, not necessarily because he demonstrates that he can provide economic security & social validation.

Most women respond favourably to being entertained and receiving gifts and tokens of affection from "prospective suitors", despite their lack of genuine interest in him as a potential sexual or romantic partner; often EXPRESSING DIRECTLY that the man is "not their type", or otherwise attempting to discourage him from believing there is an opportunity for him there.

Originally Posted by Orecle

To be fair i have personally seen men beg to be used, even when the woman is being completely disrespectful. So men that try the other tactic of buying a womans time get medium sympathy from me. Lets face it, this seems to be the default option of choice wen a man has no skills

They get no sympathy from me. It's not about 'skills', it's about appreciation and respect for women; it's their MINDSET which makes all the difference.

Originally Posted by Orecle

I gym in a men only gym in London, the amount of bouncers that have told me they have slept with women in the managers office, while the boyfriend is shaking his ass on the dance floor is horrifying. Women are NOT 100% sweet, nice and made with sugar and spice!

Women have been incredibly poorly understood, by both genders, for most of written history. The obvious disconnection between how men and women are RAISED to believe how women should be, versus how women actually are biologically and hormonally evolved to be is SO radically different, it's no wonder that there are so many unhappy people everywhere, due to INCREDIBLY POOR EXPECTATION MANAGEMENT.

Originally Posted by Orecle

I am not entirely in agreement about the ratings things. To rate and rank is a normal human tool. Mercedes ranks higher the ford. Bentley ranks higher than chrysler. In fact all European cars rank better than American( i live in Europe so I am being biased)

Your system serves the same purpose as a 1 - 10 system

[Sigh] - Please go back and reread my post on 'The NATURAL alternative to 'Rating Women', and try to recognize that the essence of the post is that NO ONE ELSE'S OPINION MATTERS BUT YOUR OWN.

Ultimately the subject of your evaluation either IS someone you would choose to bring to bed, or she is not. That's all the 'rating' you ever needs, unless you are trying to prove something to someone else.

Originally Posted by Orecle

pps. I really like your vid

Thanks! Tell your friends!

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[James81]

Originally Posted by Orecle

I gym in a men only gym in London, the amount of bouncers that have told me they have slept with women in the managers office, while the boyfriend is shaking his ass on the dance floor is horrifying. Women are NOT 100% sweet, nice and made with sugar and spice!

Yup, and I can't tell you how many men I've heard who are willing to sleep with a girl who has a boyfriend (even if they are single).

Most men think that it's wrong for them to cheat on their girlfriends, but it's rare to find a man who realizes that it's ALSO wrong to have sex with a girl who has a boyfriend.

Cheating is cheating.

And what I've found is that a lot men get so caught up in the bad things women do, that they paint ALL women with the same brush. But they can't see that men are just as bad at women. But we, as men, understand the way other men THINK, so it doesn't seem to be as bad to us. So, the reality is that these men who are so bitter against women's bad traits, simply don't understand how women think.

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by TonyToneTone

There seems to be some flaws in your logic:

1. There are some women who just want to have sex as well. Not every woman is looking for a long term relationship.

Indeed - although 'Pick Up Artists' (as a community) decry such women as undesirable, and instead focus on finding traditional 'Good Girls' who would not go to bed with a man without several 'dates' first.

Originally Posted by TonyToneTone

2. How is it a con if you are being honest about your situation?

It isn't. If a man is direct and forthright about his intentions and what he is offering, both explicitly in words, and implicitly, by being genuinely HIMSELF, and not posturing as someone/something he is not, then there is nothing unscrupulous or unethical about it whatsoever.

Originally Posted by TonyToneTone

If you are as good as you say with women, I would consider you a PUA. You definitely have made an art out of pick-up. Does that make you a con artist?

I am not a Pick Up Artist. I meet women, interact with them without pretense or misdirection, and I welcome them to drop any pretense of their own, and I ensure they recognize that I offer non-judgmental acceptance to anything they wish to share with me. This, combined with my obvious self-satisfaction, sexual confidence, and genuine happiness inspires many women to escalate our light-weight flirting to physical intimacy.

I have not made an art out of picking up women - I have learned to be disarming, charming, interesting, and compelling, without any dishonesty or inhibition, and to allow women to make their own choices, without fear of negative consequences.

Originally Posted by TonyToneTone

If I am misunderstanding what you are getting at, please let me know. It's like you are saying two different things. First, it looks like you are attacking PUAs. Then it looks like you are focusing on guys instead who want to be PUAs.

I am not attacking anything, merely trying to awaken those who mistakenly imagine that becoming a 'Pick Up Artist' is an honorable or noble goal.

Learning to be attractive is a positive thing. Learning not to fear, resent, or distrust women is very positive! Learning that engaging women, EVEN WOMEN WHOM YOU'VE NEVER MET BEFORE, can be very well-received and appreciated, and might lead to very positive outcomes, is pretty critical!

BUT while those could all be described as part of 'pick up arts', learning them does not make one into a 'pick up artist', any more than learning to block punches, transfer an opponent's attacking force into a throw, or learning to throw a punch makes one a martial artist.

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy Institute

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by MillenniumMike

This looks like a polarizing attack within the Pick Up Community. This thread essentially is attacking indirect game.

I can see why you could classify it that way - but I meant it more in a uniform sense, rather than merely calling out 'Indirect Methods'...

'Direct Method' PUAs are also stranded in their personal development because they remain 'Pick Up Artists' rather than simply being guys who are good with women... in other words, they have not ACHIEVED their goal of being able to meet and interact with/sleep with women they find attractive, but rather remain 'in the game' trying to prove something to themselves, or to other men.

Originally Posted by MillenniumMike

Now on some level I do agree mainstream pick up has a huge pitfall of making people social robots, which the thread reveals, however I feel this at its root is a sales pitch.

Heh - well, fundamentally, you're correct! Only what I'm 'selling' is free for the taking:

I am encouraging more and more people to download and review my Seductive Reasoning seminar videos, and share them with others, to help get the messages of personal acceptance, self-respect, sexual and socialogical emancipation, and the self-serving benefits of 'lightworking' to the greatest audience.



Johnny Soporno
Sexual Revolutionary & Lifestyle Guru

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by James81

Yup, and I can't tell you how many men I've heard who are willing to sleep with a girl who has a boyfriend (even if they are single).

Most men think that it's wrong for them to cheat on their girlfriends, but it's rare to find a man who realizes that it's ALSO wrong to have sex with a girl who has a boyfriend.

Cheating is cheating.

I have a friend who would often try to tell me about his sexual adventures, with single and taken women. I eventually told him to not talk to me about that stuff anymore because it honestly lowers my opinion of him. I spent less and less time with him. I'd rather just not know. It's not impressive that you slept with a cheating pushover.

Even I've had taken women come onto me for a night of sex and I wasn't even trying to attract them. It's kind of fun to blow them off... they probably thought they were cool ♥♥♥♥♥! Too bad that I thought differently.

[funchy]

THANK YOU for posting this!

As a woman, I found the PUA thing very disturbing and a bit sad. I felt it was worse to see PUA 'experts' teaching others to be fake and treat women as disposable. It's created a whole subculture based on lying to the opposite sex.

I can see why women like you. You're cute and charming. You seem very approachable, which I think is extremely important in meeting people.

Keep up the great work!

[James81]

Originally Posted by funchy

As a woman, I found the PUA thing very disturbing and a bit sad. I felt it was worse to see PUA 'experts' teaching others to be fake and treat women as disposable. It's created a whole subculture based on lying to the opposite sex.

Not all PUA focuses on that. In fact, most of the actual PUA stuff (the ebooks) is focused on teaching men why being overly nice and supplicating is creating all their problems with getting with women.

My question to you is this....how exactly would you suggest a guy who has never gotten a date and fails at getting dates LEARN to get dates? I mean, obviously the guy is going to have to change his approach, which is going to seem "fake" at first.

I'm seriously asking, btw, not trying to be snarky.

[funchy]

Originally Posted by James81

Not all PUA focuses on that. In fact, most of the actual PUA stuff (the ebooks) is focused on teaching men why being overly nice and supplicating is creating all their problems with getting with women.

The PUA teaches you to be an actor. They give you a script and you play this role, and eventually women respond to the act. The guy gets the phone #s or gets laid, so he thinks he's successful. The thing he's missing is that the women are responding to the script, not to the real him. He'll never learn how to be the real him if he spends all his time trying to be the "artist".

The act is build on a foundation of "it's ok to use women" and "it's just a game". If you integrate the PUA act into you permanently, what keeps you from switching back into 'game' mode?

My question to you is this....how exactly would you suggest a guy who has never gotten a date and fails at getting dates LEARN to get dates? I mean, obviously the guy is going to have to change his approach, which is going to seem "fake" at first.

I'd suggest just do it. How did the more successful people manage it? They weren't born with a self-help book or a relationship coach to help them. Just start talking to people. The worst they can say is no.

[Halffull]

Many people here have a very narrow definition of what it means to be a pick up artist.

Obviously, if you define pick up artist as someone who is being fake... then they're not being real.

If you define pick up artist as someone who is trying to improve themselves and how they communicate with the opposite sex... I don't see a problem.

Ultimately it seems the thread was worded this way to provoke response and discussion, rather than being buried in the multitude of "just be real" information that's out there.