Personal Development for Smart People^TM Forums

Corey · 02-23-2009, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parthon

He's not the one being small minded.

Yeah he is. Look at his original post regarding the getting laid crap. Thats seriously something some smallminded junior high/high school kid would ask someone.

Plato · 02-23-2009, 01:19 PM

If you want to be happy, click the link in my sig. You will be freaking amazed what happens. That process is MADE for you.

What's the worst that can happen? You'll give up 5 minutes for potentially changing your life (that's how long it takes!)

Alexjstrandberg · 02-24-2009, 04:36 PM

Lots of posts and haven't read them all but here is my take on pickup. There is very little value in the seduction community and is hard to find beyond all the bullsh**.

Most guys are clueless when it comes to dating so when they find the community they absorb all of the information as if it was the truth. They adopt destructive beliefs that take a long time to eliminate.

The problem is that most guys are scared and overly needy when it comes to women. The community does not solve this problem but makes it worse with all of the rules they use. "Never show interest" "Always demonstrate higher value blah blah blah"

This causes men to be overly paranoid about doing the wrong thing. Worrying about doing the wrong thing still holds an underlying neediness (the true problem).

This fear causes men to become social robots spewing out scripted material that other people wrote. It works but over time the one delivering it doesn't feel satisfied because it's not him. It makes him wonder, did she like me or someone else's words?

Pickup doesn't work in relationships and won't attract healthy ones. Pretending to be aloof draws in women who try to be aloof to cover up their neediness.

Always question who is delivering the advice. Most pickup artists are sociopaths with serious mental disorders-mystery is depressed and tried to commit suicide many times.

The pickup community should be used for a very very short period of time. Use the line "hey, who do you think lies more, men or women?" if you have not approached many women in your life (sober that is). After you have gotten comfortable doing that the line should be dropped. Unfortunately, many men get over that initial fear and still don't take it to the next level-approaching without lines, just little old you.

How to Be Successful With Women in the Wrong Way | Inner Game Reframe

Here's an article talking about basically what is being taught in the seduction community

How to be good with women (in a nutshell)

1. Be confident. Confidence comes from pushing through fears.

2. Learn to be social. You can't learn to be social in a ebook or downloadable product. You become socially competant by being social. Push through your fears (confidence building) and talk to many many people

3. Develop a sense of humor. Humor comes greatly from not being scared to make jokes and being comfortable in your own skin

4. Love yourself-happy people get more women than miserable ones

5. Work on your neediness issues

pyrogen · 02-24-2009, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexjstrandberg

Always question who is delivering the advice. Most pickup artists are sociopaths with serious mental disorders-mystery is depressed and tried to commit suicide many times.

The guy is a former AD&D geek who found his one claim to fame. He's just like the gamer dorks I used to hang with. He'd be living in his mother's basement still, if he hadn't gotten into pickup. He's a sad sack. I can't believe he's held up as this big hero. He'd've done just as well or better to just go to college and find a line of work he liked, but like a lot of those gamer-dork type people, they all think they are going to find some magic system that is going to solve all their problems, or some get-rich-quick scheme. In his case it worked, but he's no happier for it.

SupersecretIdentity · 02-24-2009, 08:15 PM

I don't think people who are naturally sociable and self-confident can really understand what it's like not to be. "Just be yourself" has absolutely NO meaning to someone who doesn't even know who they really are. It's like trying to describe color to a blind person. The PUA community is great at giving repeatable instructions on how to work on self actualization. The "light" side of pickup is really just a zen how-to presented with a dating context.

Unfortunately, a lot of the guys who get drawn to pickup are very analytical and goal oriented. It is VERY easy for them to get caught up in a "If i follow steps 1,2,3 and do A B C, then X will do Y". They inadvertently turn dating into a numbers game, and get caught up trying to optimize their strategy. If you lurk on PUA forums, you will see several guys who talk about trying to improve their success rate, get more reference experiences, etc. Basically, they miss the big picture and get so wrapped up in the results that they end up doing the exact opposite of the zen approach which is ACTUALLY attractive.

The good thing about pickup, is if you are careful not fall into that trap, it's a really great starting point for personal development. It gives you goals, actual ways to achieve those goals, measurable progress. If you do it right, you actually will get better at dating, and will gain a lot of other less tangible benefits too.

babuji · 06-23-2009, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SupersecretIdentity

I delved into pickup for a while (mostly RSD).
I really think the cause of this is the culture that you see on the PUA forums. Most of the guys there (case in point, Corey), are extremely dominant and aggressive with their opinions. Keep in mind, the PUA movement started in LA, and is primarily aimed at the club scene. The new guys tend to be indoctrinated by the confident, dominant, club guys, and emulate them. As a result, a lot of the really important self-actualization stuff gets buried under club-logistics. So, rather than focusing on how to really connect, guys are taught to be flashy, exciting, high energy, sexually aggressive, and focus on hooking up that night rather than have a longer, drawn out interaction.

As a result, guys like me who aren't into clubbing, get a lot of bad advice which doesn't translate well to a more laid back, non-party atmosphere. I had to stay away from the community for a while to pick apart the logistic, club advice from the really good stuff (how to be yourself, feel confident, express your value). I think most PUA communities will tend to have some form of logistics covering up the deeper things, because its harder to understand, integrate, and get results from self-actualization, whereas the surface level advice can have immediate results.

I think you'd enjoy learning from David Wygant. He's not a PUA and is turned off by the idea of bars / clubs as the ideal place to meet women and tray 'canned' lines. He actually advocates meeting people and starting conversations in everyday places... regardless if it's with men or women..

I'm much like you and would rather try to meet quality women in a non-party atmosphere, so I was impressed with David Wygant's approach.

Here's a blog entry that you might like: First Impressions | Dating Tips and Dating Advice by David Wygant

cheers..

brendannz · 06-23-2009, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pyrogen

The guy is a former AD&D geek who found his one claim to fame. He's just like the gamer dorks I used to hang with. He'd be living in his mother's basement still, if he hadn't gotten into pickup. He's a sad sack. I can't believe he's held up as this big hero. He'd've done just as well or better to just go to college and find a line of work he liked, but like a lot of those gamer-dork type people, they all think they are going to find some magic system that is going to solve all their problems, or some get-rich-quick scheme. In his case it worked, but he's no happier for it.

He's quite a smart and clever guy, he's spoken at universities.. but his relationships with women and probably men as well, are totally calculated so entirely superficial.. Doesn't just say and do what is natural.. it seems

pyrogen · 06-24-2009, 09:05 AM

I am in a community that uses a lot of the same tactics as pickup. In fact, I'm pretty sure that PUAs borrowed the stuff from RulesGirls. The trouble is - the malignant side of the community has TOTALLY warped my mind, and thrown me off of my game - I am about to pull out (except that there are a few people there I really like talking to). I can see the same thing being true of PUA community. I am actually at this point interested in learning to use some stuff in PUA tactics to attract the love of my life. The Rules approach is way too inflexible and uncalibrated and does not allow for variables of any situation. Besides, Rules weeds for maybe a 10% of people and after a while you get bored seeing them jump through your hoops - it really stops being a very fun game. It's deadly serious. And rather dull. It's much more fun to play games that calibrate. I act like water - flow where they flow, flow around them when they stop. It should be a dance, not a war. Rules treats anyone a woman wants to get with, as the adversary.

That said, I've had fun meeting PUAs in groups and throwing their lines back at them. I really kept these two going at this art fest. "So, I've seen you around. do you work for the state?"

Good guess, half of eveybody and his brother in my town, works for the freakin' state.

"Nope."

"You work for the government?"

"Yep."

"What do you do?"

"Can't tell you."

As I walked off, I told him and his buddy, "You need a better wing, and your cold reading sucks. Good luck!" and waved.

pyrogen · 06-24-2009, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brendannz

He's quite a smart and clever guy, he's spoken at universities.. but his relationships with women and probably men as well, are totally calculated so entirely superficial.. Doesn't just say and do what is natural.. it seems

The Rules community is also totally full of this superficiality. Flat-iron your hair, giggle a lot. Change the subject when things get too deep.

It has gone way beyond what's actually in the book - the book's tactics are defensive, not manipulative. It just guides women to not act desparate and available.

The way the community treats it, however, is another matter.

I'm actually starting to feel negative toward The Rules - it helped me in the beginning, with learning to have healthy boundaries in relationships, not have fantasy relationships, and move beyond crushing to actually dating. But I feel like it's full of "sleepers" (I've described this in other entries - I went on a 3 month board hiatus since then though) who mistake their distorted, negative worldview for reality. Most of them do not believe in love LOA or calibration, for example. TR is an EXTREMELY rigid and uncalibrated approach that asks all women to treat all love interests as if the situation were Night Game. The social context of talking to someone you meet at a company picnic is TOTALLY different from the social context of the singles scene.

I've learned far more about my "game" from PUAs than I've ever learned from any female-oriented community - god, that could be a book. "What I learned about dating, from PUAs."

I've actually gotten into some toxic thinking from TR. I feel like I will need a deprogrammer. For a while, I became so addicted to that community and those books that I felt like my life was revolving around that. I really can see how PUAs fall into this trap even MORE since PUA is FAR more technical and nuanced than Rules.

AlekNovy · 06-25-2009, 02:23 PM

Hey murphy and related

I have just one objective question, please answer it honestly:
-How many years have you been involved in the seduction community?

Give me a number

The reason I'm asking is that you have the tonality of an ideological newbie. I've been involved with it for years, built a few lairs, heck, I still even let them host a bunch of community websites on my servers for free... lol.

I'm not in it anymore... and guess what? No one that I know from back when is still in the community. There are reasons for that, think about it. Most guys (99%) either become a "guru" or leave the community within 5 years with a summary of "some weird thing I was involved in lol, boy is that embarassing to look back on haha".

None of us (ex-communiters) say the community is evil or what not, just ineffective and filled with a lot of negativity. Only after you leave it do you understand the amount of negativity and misogyny its based around.

AlekNovy · 06-25-2009, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SupersecretIdentity

I don't think people who are naturally sociable and self-confident can really understand what it's like not to be. "Just be yourself" has absolutely NO meaning to someone who doesn't even know who they really are. It's like trying to describe color to a blind person. The PUA community is great at giving repeatable instructions on how to work on self actualization. The "light" side of pickup is really just a zen how-to presented with a dating context.

Unfortunately, a lot of the guys who get drawn to pickup are very analytical and goal oriented. It is VERY easy for them to get caught up in a "If i follow steps 1,2,3 and do A B C, then X will do Y". They inadvertently turn dating into a numbers game, and get caught up trying to optimize their strategy. If you lurk on PUA forums, you will see several guys who talk about trying to improve their success rate, get more reference experiences, etc. Basically, they miss the big picture and get so wrapped up in the results that they end up doing the exact opposite of the zen approach which is ACTUALLY attractive.

The good thing about pickup, is if you are careful not fall into that trap, it's a really great starting point for personal development. It gives you goals, actual ways to achieve those goals, measurable progress. If you do it right, you actually will get better at dating, and will gain a lot of other less tangible benefits too.

Dude, this is like the BEST summary I've ever seen, lol, yeah. I wish this forum had a "vote up" function, lol.

But yeah, basically, even though 99% of the community is ****ed up misogynistic weirdos teaching other socially misscalibrated weirdos...

There is a HUGE potential for it being spring-board into personal development. In fact, some of the most developed people I know started out there... But as it is, the community needs serious reform.

But again, its really sad when it gets hold of a social misfit (like the OP and others), and then it turns them into these guys who go around weirding people out, and feeling "superior" for it... Lol.

The 1% who do get good results from the community are people who are already pretty natural, and just come in and take up what's useful, laughing at the weird stuff, and learning a few distinctions.

The kids who turn it into their identity... scary

Coffeesmurf · 07-03-2009, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

Plato, well, I was 15 when I had my first kiss. Until then practically ZERO girls had a romantic interest in me. I didn't really care though.

Might as well make my first post (hi everybody!) a deeply honest one

I'm 32 years old and only just lost my virginity this January to the first girl who displayed a real sexual interest in me after getting to know me. We were together for three months after that.

Me having a good deal of social anxiety didn't help in getting to meet girls.. but deep down I guess the real reason was that I didn't think I had anything to offer to a potential partner. Luckily my self-esteem has risen during the last five year after a bout with cancer and I'm now dating although it's still very hard for me to do.

Funny how having cancer can develop real strength and give a sense of perspective about what's important in life. It certainly deactivated my "autopilot" way of living.

As far as approach anxiety goes - I wouldn't say I would rather rob a bank.. but I can give presentations at work, attend business meetings, ride a mountainbike down steep hills, sail an ocean kayak in rough weather, etc. etc. - all without much fear at all. But approaching a woman instills an incredible fear.

An an example - some years ago a woman displayed interest in me at a bar (first time that happened in my life) by having a friend tell me she would like it if I came over and talked to her at some point during the evening. This elevated my fear to a level where my entire body was literally shaking and I couldn't think straight. I ended up putting it off for so long that she left the bar. The fear of approaching someone who hasn't displayed interest scares me even more..

111 · 07-03-2009, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coffeesmurf

Might as well make my first post (hi everybody!) a deeply honest one

I'm 32 years old and only just lost my virginity this January to the first girl who displayed a real sexual interest in me after getting to know me. We were together for three months after that.

Me having a good deal of social anxiety didn't help in getting to meet girls.. but deep down I guess the real reason was that I didn't think I had anything to offer to a potential partner. Luckily my self-esteem has risen during the last five year after a bout with cancer and I'm now dating although it's still very hard for me to do.

Funny how having cancer can develop real strength and give a sense of perspective about what's important in life. It certainly deactivated my "autopilot" way of living.

As far as approach anxiety goes - I wouldn't say I would rather rob a bank.. but I can give presentations at work, attend business meetings, ride a mountainbike down steep hills, sail an ocean kayak in rough weather, etc. etc. - all without much fear at all. But approaching a woman instills an incredible fear.

An an example - some years ago a woman displayed interest in me at a bar (first time that happened in my life) by having a friend tell me she would like it if I came over and talked to her at some point during the evening. This elevated my fear to a level where my entire body was literally shaking and I couldn't think straight. I ended up putting it off for so long that she left the bar. The fear of approaching someone who hasn't displayed interest scares me even more..

Hi Coffeesmurf, welcome. I am new here too and I only came here when I was finally learning what you fear most. I wish I found this place sooner. It would have helped me to know that others were in the same boat.

I haven't seen many posts recently that give hope to people about this fear. For me it was what I didn't want to face. Tonight again as in yesterday and earlier today I approached random girls and started conversations.

Last night I spoke to maybe 15-20 and about 5 had boyfriends who pulled them away or stood there (I then made conversation with them, they seemed to respect that I liked there girl) and about 10 maybe started talking then I walked away since I wasn't from the area and maybe 5 I couldn't get anything going with. Nothing happened but I had fun talking to the girls and the other guys sat around watching, I liked that because that used to be me and I noticed.

Tonight I talked to maybe 7 girls and never really got much going with any of them except two. I ended up sitting by some coffee place while her friend waited and then got her number. Hopefully it goes well.

Look forward to succeeding. Really I feared this more than you and only since maybe about 2 weeks ago I was doing well and maybe since last week I feel confident to approach all the time. Nothing will happen and I say this to help you and reassure myself. Have fun. I am still trying to find the girl that I can go out with all the time and it's fun trying to find her.

Your Friend.

pyrogen · 07-05-2009, 06:24 PM

A passionate and potentially brief affair has given me a new perspective on this.

I consider that there are two ways to approach mating: I call them "tactical" and "zen". Basically, people approach mating in two ways: with the idea of fulfilling a goal (left brain) or the idea of experiencing a process and experiencing personal growth (right brain). the former is the tactical approach and the latter is the zen approach.

Pickup (along with women's books such as The Rules) falls into the camp of "tactical". Love tacticians figure that if they master a certain set of behaviors, they will win their goal (lots of sex for men, marriage for women). Of course all tactical systems emphasize inner game, but there is still a very rigid assumption about human behavior. PUA is actually a superior tactical system to The Rules, because of the concept of "calibration" - TR is completely uncalibrated, does not allow for any individual sensitivities - but ALL tactical methods have the failing of being... overly tactical. You can ALWAYS be ambushed using tactics. Even Rulesgirls get played. Google 'Braddock' and 'French-Indian War' to know what the failing of tactical approach is. Overly tactical thinking leads to obsession and neurosis where following steps 1, 2, 3 becomes more important than the actual goal.

Some tacticians are very natural (the most skilled of courtesans) but some are kind of clunky. Tactics DOES work, but it has failings. In some cases, one absolutely must be tactical. If one is into goal-driven dating - then yes, you must be tactical. If a woman ABSOLUTELY must get married and have x children by y age, she must be tactical; a person in that situation places accomplishment of the goal over connection with the person.

I was very deeply tactical in my thinking - you do X to produce Y effect.

Tactical has advantages - you don't experience anywhere nearly as much hurt because of the extent to which tacticians dehumanize their targets in the early game. At the same time, you don't experience as much growth, IMO

The other approach is the zen approach. This is process-focused. If I were to look at my (possibly brief, but presently unresolved) affair from a zen perspective, I would thank the other person for a beautiful experience and think about what it taught me about myself. The other person in the equation btw is zen approach. Zen people do not make promises; they go with the moment and live fully in that moment. Zen people get hurt as well, but they remain vulnerable and in the moment. They love more deeply than tactical people and it's mostly zen people that report "finding their soulmate". They also have a life purpose (service, art, or world conquest - muahahaha) that they are driven by.

The experience has taught me something. I absolutely have no control over whether or not I ever marry/partner and have children. Even if I found the right partner, I have no control over this. The universe has ways of laughing at you when you make plans.

What would I want, a genuine love connection with a human being, or attainment of my goal at any and all cost? The women on the Rules Board (I bring this up a lot because I think it is VERY relevant to PUA thinking) have lost sight of the "connection" part and want a Husband At All Cost. They memorize lists of what to say to men if men ask x, y, z question. This is a cognitive dissonance producing issue for me.

Mind you, LOA methods are more zen than tactics. Many people achieve great results by setting an intention and releasing it to the universe. And setting up boundaries (like how soon you want to sleep with a person) based upon your own self knowledge is still operating from a receptive (zen) framework.

But trying to do tactics on the manifestation when it shows up, constitutes what another poster called "digging at your seed".

The key with tactics vs zen is you CANNOT mix them up. They are two completely different energies. Zen couples who get together tend to experience full disclosure early on; tacticians emphasize withholding information and remaining mysterious! You can't do both of these!

Tactics may get you hurt less, but there's less opportunity for personal growth.

I'm done with tactics.

Pyro is polarizing zen.

I want a deep relationship, if any relationship at all. I'm completely releasing my intention to the universe and moving on with my life.

Hey. This was good. I'm reposting it as my own thread.

AlekNovy · 07-15-2009, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pyrogen

A passionate and potentially brief affair has given me a new perspective on this.

I consider that there are two ways to approach mating: I call them "tactical" and "zen". Basically, people approach mating in two ways: with the idea of fulfilling a goal (left brain) or the idea of experiencing a process and experiencing personal growth (right brain). the former is the tactical approach and the latter is the zen approach.

Pickup (along with women's books such as The Rules) falls into the camp of "tactical". Love tacticians figure that if they master a certain set of behaviors, they will win their goal (lots of sex for men, marriage for women). Of course all tactical systems emphasize inner game, but there is still a very rigid assumption about human behavior. PUA is actually a superior tactical system to The Rules, because of the concept of "calibration" - TR is completely uncalibrated, does not allow for any individual sensitivities - but ALL tactical methods have the failing of being... overly tactical. You can ALWAYS be ambushed using tactics. Even Rulesgirls get played. Google 'Braddock' and 'French-Indian War' to know what the failing of tactical approach is. Overly tactical thinking leads to obsession and neurosis where following steps 1, 2, 3 becomes more important than the actual goal.

Some tacticians are very natural (the most skilled of courtesans) but some are kind of clunky. Tactics DOES work, but it has failings. In some cases, one absolutely must be tactical. If one is into goal-driven dating - then yes, you must be tactical. If a woman ABSOLUTELY must get married and have x children by y age, she must be tactical; a person in that situation places accomplishment of the goal over connection with the person.

I was very deeply tactical in my thinking - you do X to produce Y effect.

Tactical has advantages - you don't experience anywhere nearly as much hurt because of the extent to which tacticians dehumanize their targets in the early game. At the same time, you don't experience as much growth, IMO

The other approach is the zen approach. This is process-focused. If I were to look at my (possibly brief, but presently unresolved) affair from a zen perspective, I would thank the other person for a beautiful experience and think about what it taught me about myself. The other person in the equation btw is zen approach. Zen people do not make promises; they go with the moment and live fully in that moment. Zen people get hurt as well, but they remain vulnerable and in the moment. They love more deeply than tactical people and it's mostly zen people that report "finding their soulmate". They also have a life purpose (service, art, or world conquest - muahahaha) that they are driven by.

The experience has taught me something. I absolutely have no control over whether or not I ever marry/partner and have children. Even if I found the right partner, I have no control over this. The universe has ways of laughing at you when you make plans.

What would I want, a genuine love connection with a human being, or attainment of my goal at any and all cost? The women on the Rules Board (I bring this up a lot because I think it is VERY relevant to PUA thinking) have lost sight of the "connection" part and want a Husband At All Cost. They memorize lists of what to say to men if men ask x, y, z question. This is a cognitive dissonance producing issue for me.

Mind you, LOA methods are more zen than tactics. Many people achieve great results by setting an intention and releasing it to the universe. And setting up boundaries (like how soon you want to sleep with a person) based upon your own self knowledge is still operating from a receptive (zen) framework.

But trying to do tactics on the manifestation when it shows up, constitutes what another poster called "digging at your seed".

The key with tactics vs zen is you CANNOT mix them up. They are two completely different energies. Zen couples who get together tend to experience full disclosure early on; tacticians emphasize withholding information and remaining mysterious! You can't do both of these!

Tactics may get you hurt less, but there's less opportunity for personal growth.

I'm done with tactics.

Pyro is polarizing zen.

I want a deep relationship, if any relationship at all. I'm completely releasing my intention to the universe and moving on with my life.

Hey. This was good. I'm reposting it as my own thread.

Interesting post, and I admit, did not read all of it.

However you're at level 2.

There's about 5-6 levels a guy goes through when he discovers the community. First level is tactics for pick up, second level is "omg, its all inner game and connection and zeeeeeeeen!"

I know you think you've discovered the end truth, but you're far from it still. The end level doesn't even involve women or pick up, or any of that ****.

Angela · 07-16-2009, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlekNovy

There's about 5-6 levels a guy goes through when he discovers the community.

Perhaps you do realize that pyrogen is not a guy. Isn't it important for a good PUA to be able to spot a female when he encounters one? Granted, it's not obvious, but there are hints in her post!

Mynder · 07-16-2009, 02:58 PM

It may just be me, but somebody who comes across aggressively preaching that men simply HAVE TO learn PUA tricks because otherwise they're all losers and at the same time has a link in his sig that goes "Sexual Techniques For Men" (and seems to be auto-censored by the forum software without that person even realizing it)...well...that somebody strikes me as somebody who might have his very own motives about writing that post in the first place.

In a somewhat offensive manner.

Daffy Duck · 07-16-2009, 04:15 PM

The OP (Murphy) is long gone, hasn't posted since February. He's probably busy sleeping with my wife.

Mynder · 07-16-2009, 06:34 PM

And all the while you are sitting at the bedroom PC hacking away at Forum posts here. What an insensitive bloke. He could at least have asked her out.

AlekNovy · 07-23-2009, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angela

Perhaps you do realize that pyrogen is not a guy. Isn't it important for a good PUA to be able to spot a female when he encounters one? Granted, it's not obvious, but there are hints in her post!

1) I'm not a PUA. Climbed that mountain and outgrew it years ago. The community is fully in level 1, and maybe a bit of level 2.
2) I did state I did not read the post, just skimmed it

The rest still holds true. The levels are the same for both men and women. The first level is obsessing with techniques (when to call, when not to call, what to say, what not to say), the second level is that "OMG its all about being zen and in the moment, oh wow".

brendannz · 07-23-2009, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlekNovy

1) I'm not a PUA. Climbed that mountain and outgrew it years ago. The community is fully in level 1, and maybe a bit of level 2.
2) I did state I did not read the post, just skimmed it

The rest still holds true. The levels are the same for both men and women. The first level is obsessing with techniques (when to call, when not to call, what to say, what not to say), the second level is that "OMG its all about being zen and in the moment, oh wow".

There's a community local to me. They market themselves as a fun and friendly social club dedicated to meeting girls, and helping other guys meet them, but I just don't really think these dudes are particularly cool, if they post online stories about how awesome they are with women.. lol

domjt · 07-21-2010, 02:50 AM

I'm not sure I agree with you. As already pointed it seems as if your morals are certainly different to mine.
I picked up from each section your encoring one night stands, to just go sleep with whom you want. And possibly this is all an image :P

But you can't talk for me, I've said / thought some of those points, Like the meeting girls in clubs. However I disagree with you totally.
I go clubbing and I enjoy it, but I’ve never tried or wanted to go to pick girls up, as it’s not the scene I want to meet girls. I like to meet girls sober when they're themselves, and not necessarily in a club, possibly drunk or after guys.
There’s nothing wrong with it, but for myself one nighters and picking girls up in clubs isn’t my thing. Therefore I think you speak rubbish.............that or you think all those questions but feel you need to shout at yourself on here about it.

Liz Caitlin · 07-21-2010, 04:37 AM

Just read the original post, will sift through the rest of this thread in a moment.

But seriously, OP...quality, man. Sometimes it's actually, you know, FUN to sleep with the same girl more than once! Particularly once you know how to turn each other on like no other! I'm just sayin'...sheesh.

theuprising · 07-21-2010, 05:30 AM

A lot of the seduction community is going about it the wrong way. A lot of the work is internal, just confidence building. The rest is just going out and learning, and having a few "tactics" to fall back on and some theory won't hurt as a crutch at first, but the eventual focus is just learning to have fun in social situations, learning to calibrate to others, and being your best self.

domjt. What is backing your opinion up? Nothing, a feeling, which is backed by a past experience, which was more or less arbitrary.

domjt · 07-22-2010, 05:21 AM

What’s backing up my opinion?
I don't need proof as to whether it’s right or wrong. But for me it goes against MY morals.
When I approach girls for more than just friendship, its because I want a serious/long relationship (not a relationship just to last a time period).

I haven’t had a bad experience or anything like that, so don't assume that’s why. I've grown up being taught to be a gentleman. And its in MY opinion that going out to get laid doesn’t seem right.

Stereotyping that guys sleep around, or only think with their ****, is not right. Not all guys are like that.
I know a lot of guys; older than myself, who didn’t have loads of girlfriends or sleep around and they've turned out fine and are in happy long lasting marriages. Now I'm not saying it’s necessarily the opposite way around for guys who do sleep around, but its proof to show there’s nothing wrong with MY opinion.

Marty McFly · 07-22-2010, 02:55 PM

Murphy - are you a salesman? - I bet you would make a winning salesman. So what is your line of work?

scotthegeek · 07-22-2010, 05:52 PM

I'm very uncomfortable about sex but I do find its fun to flirt if the girl enjoys it too. but You get to the point where if the girl is really interest. and I don't follow up (ask for a date) than she feel frustrated and I do too.

so even though I hear a lot of girls say why do men always want sex and I try to avoid sex thinking girls will want me because I being nonsexual that what they say they want.

I think the truth is that no one want to be used but to go the other direction of being lifeless and afraid of doing wrong and walking on egg shells dose either one any good. that why some men read PUA stuff so they can learn to make them self and women happy.

Rage · 08-03-2010, 05:52 PM

There is nothing wrong with the original purpose of the Pick Up community: help men who aren't 'naturals' to improve their success with women, wheter that means to have more and better sex or to find the great love of their life.

What is wrong with the community is that by now it has turned into a big business, where scores of old and new 'masters' and 'gurus' try to convince guys that if they don't sleep with at least 1000 supermodels they are losers and that they possess the ultimate methods or the last secrets to give you INCREDIBLE and OUTRAGEOUS success (these the words they use in many of their promotion posts and websites) with steaming hot women. So how one can pick the correct and useful informations among all this commercial crap?

02-24-2009, 04:36 PM	#183 (permalink)
Alexjstrandberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 300	Lots of posts and haven't read them all but here is my take on pickup. There is very little value in the seduction community and is hard to find beyond all the bullsh. Most guys are clueless when it comes to dating so when they find the community they absorb all of the information as if it was the truth. They adopt destructive beliefs that take a long time to eliminate. The problem is that most guys are scared and overly needy when it comes to women. The community does not solve this problem but makes it worse with all of the rules they use. "Never show interest" "Always demonstrate higher value blah blah blah" This causes men to be overly paranoid about doing the wrong thing. Worrying about doing the wrong thing still holds an underlying neediness (the true problem). This fear causes men to become social robots spewing out scripted material that other people wrote. It works but over time the one delivering it doesn't feel satisfied because it's not him. It makes him wonder, did she like me or someone else's words? Pickup doesn't work in relationships and won't attract healthy ones. Pretending** to be aloof draws in women who try to be aloof to cover up their neediness. Always question who is delivering the advice. Most pickup artists are sociopaths with serious mental disorders-mystery is depressed and tried to commit suicide many times. The pickup community should be used for a very very short period of time. Use the line "hey, who do you think lies more, men or women?" if you have not approached many women in your life (sober that is). After you have gotten comfortable doing that the line should be dropped. Unfortunately, many men get over that initial fear and still don't take it to the next level-approaching without lines, just little old you. How to Be Successful With Women in the Wrong Way \| Inner Game Reframe Here's an article talking about basically what is being taught in the seduction community How to be good with women (in a nutshell) 1. Be confident. Confidence comes from pushing through fears. 2. Learn to be social. You can't learn to be social in a ebook or downloadable product. You become socially competant by being social. Push through your fears (confidence building) and talk to many many people 3. Develop a sense of humor. Humor comes greatly from not being scared to make jokes and being comfortable in your own skin 4. Love yourself-happy people get more women than miserable ones 5. Work on your neediness issues Last edited by Alexjstrandberg; 02-24-2009 at 04:40 PM.

06-25-2009, 02:23 PM	#190 (permalink)
AlekNovy Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 31	Hey murphy and related I have just one objective question, please answer it honestly: -How many years have you been involved in the seduction community? Give me a number The reason I'm asking is that you have the tonality of an ideological newbie. I've been involved with it for years, built a few lairs, heck, I still even let them host a bunch of community websites on my servers for free... lol. I'm not in it anymore... and guess what? No one that I know from back when is still in the community. There are reasons for that, think about it. Most guys (99%) either become a "guru" or leave the community within 5 years with a summary of "some weird thing I was involved in lol, boy is that embarassing to look back on haha". None of us (ex-communiters) say the community is evil or what not, just ineffective and filled with a lot of negativity. Only after you leave it do you understand the amount of negativity and misogyny its based around. Last edited by AlekNovy; 06-25-2009 at 02:25 PM.

07-21-2010, 05:30 AM	#204 (permalink)
theuprising Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 705	A lot of the seduction community is going about it the wrong way. A lot of the work is internal, just confidence building. The rest is just going out and learning, and having a few "tactics" to fall back on and some theory won't hurt as a crutch at first, but the eventual focus is just learning to have fun in social situations, learning to calibrate to others, and being your best self. domjt. What is backing your opinion up? Nothing, a feeling, which is backed by a past experience, which was more or less arbitrary. Last edited by theuprising; 07-21-2010 at 05:32 AM.

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02-23-2009, 01:19 PM	#182 (permalink)
Plato Banned Join Date: May 2007 Location: in your fridge Posts: 2,018	If you want to be happy, click the link in my sig. You will be freaking amazed what happens. That process is MADE for you. What's the worst that can happen? You'll give up 5 minutes for potentially changing your life (that's how long it takes!)

02-24-2009, 08:15 PM	#185 (permalink)
SupersecretIdentity Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 49	I don't think people who are naturally sociable and self-confident can really understand what it's like not to be. "Just be yourself" has absolutely NO meaning to someone who doesn't even know who they really are. It's like trying to describe color to a blind person. The PUA community is great at giving repeatable instructions on how to work on self actualization. The "light" side of pickup is really just a zen how-to presented with a dating context. Unfortunately, a lot of the guys who get drawn to pickup are very analytical and goal oriented. It is VERY easy for them to get caught up in a "If i follow steps 1,2,3 and do A B C, then X will do Y". They inadvertently turn dating into a numbers game, and get caught up trying to optimize their strategy. If you lurk on PUA forums, you will see several guys who talk about trying to improve their success rate, get more reference experiences, etc. Basically, they miss the big picture and get so wrapped up in the results that they end up doing the exact opposite of the zen approach which is ACTUALLY attractive. The good thing about pickup, is if you are careful not fall into that trap, it's a really great starting point for personal development. It gives you goals, actual ways to achieve those goals, measurable progress. If you do it right, you actually will get better at dating, and will gain a lot of other less tangible benefits too.

06-24-2009, 09:05 AM	#188 (permalink)
pyrogen Banned Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Northern California Posts: 3,030	I am in a community that uses a lot of the same tactics as pickup. In fact, I'm pretty sure that PUAs borrowed the stuff from RulesGirls. The trouble is - the malignant side of the community has TOTALLY warped my mind, and thrown me off of my game - I am about to pull out (except that there are a few people there I really like talking to). I can see the same thing being true of PUA community. I am actually at this point interested in learning to use some stuff in PUA tactics to attract the love of my life. The Rules approach is way too inflexible and uncalibrated and does not allow for variables of any situation. Besides, Rules weeds for maybe a 10% of people and after a while you get bored seeing them jump through your hoops - it really stops being a very fun game. It's deadly serious. And rather dull. It's much more fun to play games that calibrate. I act like water - flow where they flow, flow around them when they stop. It should be a dance, not a war. Rules treats anyone a woman wants to get with, as the adversary. That said, I've had fun meeting PUAs in groups and throwing their lines back at them. I really kept these two going at this art fest. "So, I've seen you around. do you work for the state?" Good guess, half of eveybody and his brother in my town, works for the freakin' state. "Nope." "You work for the government?" "Yep." "What do you do?" "Can't tell you." As I walked off, I told him and his buddy, "You need a better wing, and your cold reading sucks. Good luck!" and waved.

07-05-2009, 06:24 PM	#194 (permalink)
pyrogen Banned Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Northern California Posts: 3,030	A passionate and potentially brief affair has given me a new perspective on this. I consider that there are two ways to approach mating: I call them "tactical" and "zen". Basically, people approach mating in two ways: with the idea of fulfilling a goal (left brain) or the idea of experiencing a process and experiencing personal growth (right brain). the former is the tactical approach and the latter is the zen approach. Pickup (along with women's books such as The Rules) falls into the camp of "tactical". Love tacticians figure that if they master a certain set of behaviors, they will win their goal (lots of sex for men, marriage for women). Of course all tactical systems emphasize inner game, but there is still a very rigid assumption about human behavior. PUA is actually a superior tactical system to The Rules, because of the concept of "calibration" - TR is completely uncalibrated, does not allow for any individual sensitivities - but ALL tactical methods have the failing of being... overly tactical. You can ALWAYS be ambushed using tactics. Even Rulesgirls get played. Google 'Braddock' and 'French-Indian War' to know what the failing of tactical approach is. Overly tactical thinking leads to obsession and neurosis where following steps 1, 2, 3 becomes more important than the actual goal. Some tacticians are very natural (the most skilled of courtesans) but some are kind of clunky. Tactics DOES work, but it has failings. In some cases, one absolutely must be tactical. If one is into goal-driven dating - then yes, you must be tactical. If a woman ABSOLUTELY must get married and have x children by y age, she must be tactical; a person in that situation places accomplishment of the goal over connection with the person. I was very deeply tactical in my thinking - you do X to produce Y effect. Tactical has advantages - you don't experience anywhere nearly as much hurt because of the extent to which tacticians dehumanize their targets in the early game. At the same time, you don't experience as much growth, IMO The other approach is the zen approach. This is process-focused. If I were to look at my (possibly brief, but presently unresolved) affair from a zen perspective, I would thank the other person for a beautiful experience and think about what it taught me about myself. The other person in the equation btw is zen approach. Zen people do not make promises; they go with the moment and live fully in that moment. Zen people get hurt as well, but they remain vulnerable and in the moment. They love more deeply than tactical people and it's mostly zen people that report "finding their soulmate". They also have a life purpose (service, art, or world conquest - muahahaha) that they are driven by. The experience has taught me something. I absolutely have no control over whether or not I ever marry/partner and have children. Even if I found the right partner, I have no control over this. The universe has ways of laughing at you when you make plans. What would I want, a genuine love connection with a human being, or attainment of my goal at any and all cost? The women on the Rules Board (I bring this up a lot because I think it is VERY relevant to PUA thinking) have lost sight of the "connection" part and want a Husband At All Cost. They memorize lists of what to say to men if men ask x, y, z question. This is a cognitive dissonance producing issue for me. Mind you, LOA methods are more zen than tactics. Many people achieve great results by setting an intention and releasing it to the universe. And setting up boundaries (like how soon you want to sleep with a person) based upon your own self knowledge is still operating from a receptive (zen) framework. But trying to do tactics on the manifestation when it shows up, constitutes what another poster called "digging at your seed". The key with tactics vs zen is you CANNOT mix them up. They are two completely different energies. Zen couples who get together tend to experience full disclosure early on; tacticians emphasize withholding information and remaining mysterious! You can't do both of these! Tactics may get you hurt less, but there's less opportunity for personal growth. I'm done with tactics. Pyro is polarizing zen. I want a deep relationship, if any relationship at all. I'm completely releasing my intention to the universe and moving on with my life. Hey. This was good. I'm reposting it as my own thread.

07-16-2009, 02:58 PM	#197 (permalink)
Mynder Family Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Northern Germany Posts: 2,659	It may just be me, but somebody who comes across aggressively preaching that men simply HAVE TO learn PUA tricks because otherwise they're all losers and at the same time has a link in his sig that goes "Sexual Techniques For Men" (and seems to be auto-censored by the forum software without that person even realizing it)...well...that somebody strikes me as somebody who might have his very own motives about writing that post in the first place. In a somewhat offensive manner.

07-16-2009, 04:15 PM	#198 (permalink)
Daffy Duck Banned Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,001	The OP (Murphy) is long gone, hasn't posted since February. He's probably busy sleeping with my wife.

07-16-2009, 06:34 PM	#199 (permalink)
Mynder Family Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Northern Germany Posts: 2,659	And all the while you are sitting at the bedroom PC hacking away at Forum posts here. What an insensitive bloke. He could at least have asked her out.

07-21-2010, 02:50 AM	#202 (permalink)
domjt Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: UK Posts: 91	I'm not sure I agree with you. As already pointed it seems as if your morals are certainly different to mine. I picked up from each section your encoring one night stands, to just go sleep with whom you want. And possibly this is all an image :P But you can't talk for me, I've said / thought some of those points, Like the meeting girls in clubs. However I disagree with you totally. I go clubbing and I enjoy it, but I’ve never tried or wanted to go to pick girls up, as it’s not the scene I want to meet girls. I like to meet girls sober when they're themselves, and not necessarily in a club, possibly drunk or after guys. There’s nothing wrong with it, but for myself one nighters and picking girls up in clubs isn’t my thing. Therefore I think you speak rubbish.............that or you think all those questions but feel you need to shout at yourself on here about it.

07-21-2010, 04:37 AM	#203 (permalink)
Liz Caitlin Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Illinois Posts: 789	Just read the original post, will sift through the rest of this thread in a moment. But seriously, OP...quality, man. Sometimes it's actually, you know, FUN to sleep with the same girl more than once! Particularly once you know how to turn each other on like no other! I'm just sayin'...sheesh.

07-22-2010, 05:21 AM	#205 (permalink)
domjt Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: UK Posts: 91	What’s backing up my opinion? I don't need proof as to whether it’s right or wrong. But for me it goes against MY morals. When I approach girls for more than just friendship, its because I want a serious/long relationship (not a relationship just to last a time period). I haven’t had a bad experience or anything like that, so don't assume that’s why. I've grown up being taught to be a gentleman. And its in MY opinion that going out to get laid doesn’t seem right. Stereotyping that guys sleep around, or only think with their ****, is not right. Not all guys are like that. I know a lot of guys; older than myself, who didn’t have loads of girlfriends or sleep around and they've turned out fine and are in happy long lasting marriages. Now I'm not saying it’s necessarily the opposite way around for guys who do sleep around, but its proof to show there’s nothing wrong with MY opinion.

07-22-2010, 02:55 PM	#206 (permalink)
Marty McFly Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 137	Murphy - are you a salesman? - I bet you would make a winning salesman. So what is your line of work?

07-22-2010, 05:52 PM	#207 (permalink)
scotthegeek Family Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Windsor Ontario Canada Posts: 1,115	I'm very uncomfortable about sex but I do find its fun to flirt if the girl enjoys it too. but You get to the point where if the girl is really interest. and I don't follow up (ask for a date) than she feel frustrated and I do too. so even though I hear a lot of girls say why do men always want sex and I try to avoid sex thinking girls will want me because I being nonsexual that what they say they want. I think the truth is that no one want to be used but to go the other direction of being lifeless and afraid of doing wrong and walking on egg shells dose either one any good. that why some men read PUA stuff so they can learn to make them self and women happy.

08-03-2010, 05:52 PM	#208 (permalink)
Rage Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 4	There is nothing wrong with the original purpose of the Pick Up community: help men who aren't 'naturals' to improve their success with women, wheter that means to have more and better sex or to find the great love of their life. What is wrong with the community is that by now it has turned into a big business, where scores of old and new 'masters' and 'gurus' try to convince guys that if they don't sleep with at least 1000 supermodels they are losers and that they possess the ultimate methods or the last secrets to give you INCREDIBLE and OUTRAGEOUS success (these the words they use in many of their promotion posts and websites) with steaming hot women. So how one can pick the correct and useful informations among all this commercial crap?

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