Is Pick Up Weird? Of Course Not You’re Just Too SCARED To Try It

[Murphy]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

I do my best to serve up my best-reasoned and most rational arguments, I can't avoid continually and adamantly insisting that I am NOT a 'pick up artist', and I don't support the efforts of those who consider themselves as such.

Sorry Jonny but my definition of a "pick up artist" is anyone who is actively trying to get better with women, so therefore you are one.

If you're definition is someone who uses manipulation and deceit then I am not one of those.

Daffy Duck/ If you'll refer to my original post you'll see I already answered the question of how many girls I've slept with. 18. And I'd consider half of them to be hot.

The reason most guys don't have the goal of sleeping with a lot of hot women is because - even though they'd love to do it - they think it would be to hard for them to accomplish, so they don't try.

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by Murphy

If you'll refer to my original post you'll see I already answered the question of how many girls I've slept with. 18.

Ah, yes, I see now.

Just to make something clear for you and any other readers, I definitely do not share your goal, even though I've joked about as it in past posts as if I did. I have always preferred monogamous meaningful relationships where I have a higher emotional and mutual love with the person. You can make a connection with someone in a club for a one night stand but that's not what I am talking about.

I'm young and I have never been in a relationship that lasted less than one year. My longest was over five years. I'm also faithful, I'd rather kill myself than cheat. And that's not just for the woman, it's for me. I don't want to look at myself in the mirror and know that I lack integrity or honor. So my number of partners is way less than your "18," although I've probably had MUCH more sex than you have (one of the 'benefits' of monogamy). But that really, really does not matter.

Like I've said, I've had woman come onto me for just sex without me trying, but I always turn them down. One persistent girl knew I had a girlfriend, and even after I reminded her again of that fact, she kept trying to initiate something. That's just a bit sleazy. In hindsight I should have just walked away and never tried to be friends with her.

When does your number end, Murphy? Do you have a set goal? Do you really want to have sex with a thousand women? Are you going to keep a list of their names like a running score card? Sex is great but living just for "hot sex," to me, is like eating nothing but icing. What about the cake? If all I eat is icing I know what happens -- I get sick and feel like ****. Too much sugar, man. Although I loved it when I was younger and less experienced with eating cake.

Another poster on this forum named Hot Alpha Female put it like this: "A lot of them go through stages. When they first learn it they want to get with as many woman as possible. But they grow through this stage as well and search for more meaning."

I say this: when your "inner game" is truly good, it won't matter how many women you sleep with. You're happy either way. But you probably know that.

Originally Posted by Murphy

If you're definition is someone who uses manipulation and deceit then I am not one of those.

And yet you talk about sleeping with married women in your OP. No deceit, you say? Interesting.

Your original post is a little surprising, Murphy. You say you believe in karma. I know you have worked hard to overcome your self-esteem issues. And yet your original post is full of negativity and trash talking. What was your intention? Were you trying to rock the boat? It just made you look silly. It wasn't a very good "neg." If we were a girl in a club, we just slapped you in the face and walked away.

The reason most guys don't have the goal of sleeping with a lot of hot women is because - even though they'd love to do it - they think it would be to hard for them to accomplish, so they don't try.

I'd say that is true for some guys, but not most. It depends on their age and life experience. For many guys it is simply not a worthwhile goal, like being the world's fastest hot dog eater. Why don't you eat more hot dogs? ARE YOU AFRAID?! MAKING EXCUSES?! You know while you're at work I'm eating all the hot dogs in your fridge!!

Lol sometimes I make myself laugh.

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

I think the sleazy and manipulative ones (eg OP) are good with the low self esteem girls.

Exactly, Midas. You hit the nail on the head. My friend who I referred to earlier as a "natural" is the exact same way. He tends to only find himself with low self-esteem girls, who are not really suitable for a long-term relationship. The thing is, I think he would really like to settle down with someone more confident, but he only seems to attract these type of girls. I'm sure that will change some day.

I just don't see how a confident woman be impressed with such seeming idiots.

Me neither. Steve mentioned being authentic earlier. I think confident women prefer authentic guys.

[Murphy]

So Daffy Duck you take back what you said about sleeping with hot women being easy?

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by Murphy

So Daffy Duck you take back what you said about sleeping with hot women being easy?

No... did you read what I said? Sleeping with "hot women" is easy. Especially in college.

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

Like I've said, I've had woman come onto me for just sex without me trying, but I always turn them down.

So easy I have a friend who does it quite frequently without trying and even he turns many of them down too. And he's not exactly a Casanova...

[Savage]

If you want to get your rocks off a lot, have fun with it. But it seems rather juvenile to denigrate others who make different choices, as if they're secretly envious or something. Please...

Maybe pepole just don't think the PUA lifestyle is all that special. Many who've slept around a lot have said it's not worth such a huge time investment, and they come out wanting other things. But those who are in the thick of it often need to draw others in to justify their lifestyle.

The opportunity cost of sleeping with lots of women can be pretty high. Some people pour a good chunk of their lives into it. But the long-term gains they retain from that pursuit, if any, have little to do with how many women they slept with. It's more about the fears they were able to overcome.

I think many people who get into PUA are sex addicts, borderline sex predators. They become like druggies trying to sell others on it so as to justify their ongoing addiction, even as real life is slowly passing them by. They think more sex will fulfill them, but it just leaves them feeling empty, frustrated, and angry.

Would I rather have invested my time in sleeping with 100 women instead of doing other things instead? Not remotely. I'm happy with the lifestyle choices I've made thus far. I'm glad I built a successful business (two actually), wrote hundreds of articles, got a book published, made fascinating friends, had a family, moved to Vegas, went vegetarian then vegan then raw, ran a marathon, trained in martial arts, go into pro speaking, learned podcasting, bought two houses, etc. I'm glad I didn't sacrifice any of those things to become a top PUA with lots of sexual conquests.

I still enjoyed plenty of sex along the way, but I'm glad I didn't turn sex into the central focus of my life. I think I'd be much less happy if I did that.

Don't get me wrong. Sex is great. But so is a really good salad... especially one with olives and sundried tomatoes... when the tomatoes have that perfect balance of sweetness and tartness... soooo good! But I can enjoy food without ballooning myself to 300 lbs. Similarly, I can enjoy sex without becoming a sex addict.

I could use the same silly tactics as some of these PUA types and goad people into doing stuff to "build their courage". I could shame people into new lifestyle choices. I could chide people for being too cowardly to shoplift, for instance, which is something I did hundreds of times as a teenager. I could label PUAs as wimps and cowards for being too scared to risk prison time. Seriously... how brave can you be if you can't even break the law? You think it takes balls to approach a woman on the street and start a conversation? To get her into bed and have sex? Gimme a break! Even my daughter can overcome approach anxiety. If you want to build your courage, try taking a real risk for once. If the only thing you're risking is embarrassment, you can hardly wrap yourself in a cloak of courage. Play a game with more than penny stakes. Risk your livelihood. Risk your freedom. Risk your family's financial security. Risk your life.

The PUA community is filled with people who claim their marshmallow balls are made of steel. But most of them don't even have the balls to post in public forums with their real names... traceable to their real identities. If they had an ounce of courage, they'd post on public forums using their real names, not lame handles to hide their identities from their boss, friends, and of course their mommy.

See what I mean? I can use shame just as easily, and most PUAs are easy targets. But does it really help?

[jaamkie]

what I wonder is if either of you find it easy, or even possible, to sleep with intelligent emotionally-healthy women?

[Savage]

Originally Posted by jaamkie

what I wonder is if either of you find it easy, or even possible, to sleep with intelligent emotionally-healthy women?

Every day.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

I could label PUAs as wimps and cowards for being too scared to risk prison time. Seriously... how brave can you be if you can't even break the law? You think it takes balls to approach a woman on the street and start a conversation? To get her into bed and have sex? Gimme a break! Even my daughter can overcome approach anxiety. If you want to build your courage, try taking a real risk for once. If the only thing you're risking is embarrassment, you can hardly wrap yourself in a cloak of courage. Play a game with more than penny stakes. Risk your livelihood. Risk your freedom. Risk your family's financial security. Risk your life.

Funnily enough that motivates me. The higher the stakes the more fear, the more motivation to succeed.

I'm a weeeeeiiirdo though.

[Eric Roosevelt]

I saw a guy trying to pick up a girl in the library the other day, and it was pretty sad to watch. She was trying to look for a book, and this guy kept bothering her with all sorts of inane questions. I think the important thing is to be authentic, and don't start talking about things you aren't the least bit interested in. The time and the place needs to be right as well.

[jaamkie]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Every day.

giggle, you know I meant the OP and others one-upping each other about "sleeping with hot girls", not you!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

... a really good salad... especially one with olives and sundried tomatoes... when the tomatoes have that perfect balance of sweetness and tartness... soooo good!

Now, here is a guy who really knows how to turn a woman on!

[BeyondtheWrap]

Originally Posted by Murphy

“I’m too ****ing scared to go out into the real world, push myself and meet women. I’d rather stay procrastinating behind a keyboard, not getting laid, but feeling good about myself because I do ‘personal development.’"

Sounds like me.

[BeyondtheWrap]

Originally Posted by SomeRandomGuy

The primary complaints that I see regarding the seduction community are that the teachings tend to objectify women and that "success" is often measured by how many hot women you can sleep with.

Guys do that without the community anyway.

Also, the ebooks that I've read usually say to define success for yourself (so that you have a specific personal goal)

[Plato]

So, does this make Neil Strauss the devil?

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by jaamkie

what I wonder is if either of you find it easy, or even possible, to sleep with intelligent emotionally-healthy women?

Who are you referring to, Jaamkie? There is basically only one PUA posting in this thread. His name is Murphy, the OP.

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by Murphy

Sorry Johnny but my definition of a "pick up artist" is anyone who is actively trying to get better with women, so therefore you are one.

Actually, I actively and constantly try to become better with PEOPLE, and therefore your definition of "Pick Up Artist" does not apply to me.

Originally Posted by Murphy

If your definition is someone who uses manipulation and deceit then I am not one of those.

In that case, you are NOT a "Pick Up Artist" - and good for you!

I urge you to read & consider my definition again, before you defend the indefensible and, frankly, make yourself less credible.
HERE: A 'Pick Up Artist' is ultimately a 'Con Artist' in the arena of the sexual predator

Originally Posted by Murphy

I already answered the question of how many girls I've slept with. 18. And I'd consider half of them to be hot.

Well, you've got me beat... I certainly haven't slept with as many as 9 women I didn't find hot.

Originally Posted by Murphy

The reason most guys don't have the goal of sleeping with a lot of hot women is because - even though they'd love to do it - they think it would be to hard for them to accomplish, so they don't try.

[SIGH]
Mr Murphy, there are elements of truth to what you're saying, for most people; as I posted HERE, it is completely normal for ego-afflicted people to believe that some people are 'out of their league' - and therefore they won't engage with them.

@Steve: Where you issued your mock-challenge:

You think it takes balls to approach a woman on the street and start a conversation? To get her into bed and have sex? Gimme a break! Even my daughter can overcome approach anxiety.

It is important to accept and appreciate that FOR MANY, there is nothing close to as terrifying as would be attempting to engage in flirtatious conversation with a stranger they find sexually attractive.

Your own lack of compunction in this area is outstanding, and far from normal. I'm sure you've instilled sufficient personal social acceptance in your daughter that she would not hesitate to engage with someone interesting to her - but I'm also confident that you've lovingly warned her against engaging with unknown 'Grown Ups'. I suspect her ability to reconcile the two messages will be very challenging as she enters her teen-years!

For many, this fear of casual, playful, light social interaction is crippling. The very notion that someone might not mind being approached, inconceivable. (And yes, the word means what I think it means

I have had to address and conquer this issue with countless extremely highly-powered and effective clients (senior Fortune 500 executives, famous athletes, musicians, actors & other celebrities, as well as respected and accomplished professionals of all varieties) and I'm confident when I say that before working through it, ANY of them would more-willingly shoplift something from a store I might point out across the street, than begin a conversation with an attractive stranger I might point out standing in front of that store.

Such is the paralyzing power of societies inhibition towards socialization - and it must be BROKEN, in most people's cases. (This goes for BOTH genders, straights AND gays alike.)


@Murphy, returning to your quote:

The reason most guys don't have the goal of sleeping with a lot of hot women is because - even though they'd love to do it - they think it would be to hard for them to accomplish, so they don't try.

While there is some truth, there's way more 'logical fallacy' and 'projecting' taking place in your comment.

MOST GUYS don't have "sleeping with a lot of hot women" as their goal because accomplishing it GAINS NOTHING. There's no "THERE" there!

Contrast this with goals such as "living a happy life", "accepting myself", "earning the love and respect of people I love and respect", and you'll see that there's no payoff in investing time in pursuits like chasing hotties for sport.

Ultimately, the only payoff most guys get out of actually learning to "bring hot women to bed", is discovering that it doesn't matter, except if you need to impress other guys.

And that if you're still worried about what other guys think, you've got much more critical goals to set for yourself!

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[DerekH]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

If you want to get your rocks off a lot, have fun with it. But it seems rather juvenile to denigrate others who make different choices, as if they're secretly envious or something. Please...

Maybe pepole just don't think the PUA lifestyle is all that special. Many who've slept around a lot have said it's not worth such a huge time investment, and they come out wanting other things. But those who are in the thick of it often need to draw others in to justify their lifestyle.

The opportunity cost of sleeping with lots of women can be pretty high. Some people pour a good chunk of their lives into it. But the long-term gains they retain from that pursuit, if any, have little to do with how many women they slept with. It's more about the fears they were able to overcome.

I think many people who get into PUA are sex addicts, borderline sex predators. They become like druggies trying to sell others on it so as to justify their ongoing addiction, even as real life is slowly passing them by. They think more sex will fulfill them, but it just leaves them feeling empty, frustrated, and angry.

Would I rather have invested my time in sleeping with 100 women instead of doing other things instead? Not remotely. I'm happy with the lifestyle choices I've made thus far. I'm glad I built a successful business (two actually), wrote hundreds of articles, got a book published, made fascinating friends, had a family, moved to Vegas, went vegetarian then vegan then raw, ran a marathon, trained in martial arts, go into pro speaking, learned podcasting, bought two houses, etc. I'm glad I didn't sacrifice any of those things to become a top PUA with lots of sexual conquests.

I still enjoyed plenty of sex along the way, but I'm glad I didn't turn sex into the central focus of my life. I think I'd be much less happy if I did that.

Don't get me wrong. Sex is great. But so is a really good salad... especially one with olives and sundried tomatoes... when the tomatoes have that perfect balance of sweetness and tartness... soooo good! But I can enjoy food without ballooning myself to 300 lbs. Similarly, I can enjoy sex without becoming a sex addict.

I could use the same silly tactics as some of these PUA types and goad people into doing stuff to "build their courage". I could shame people into new lifestyle choices. I could chide people for being too cowardly to shoplift, for instance, which is something I did hundreds of times as a teenager. I could label PUAs as wimps and cowards for being too scared to risk prison time. Seriously... how brave can you be if you can't even break the law? You think it takes balls to approach a woman on the street and start a conversation? To get her into bed and have sex? Gimme a break! Even my daughter can overcome approach anxiety. If you want to build your courage, try taking a real risk for once. If the only thing you're risking is embarrassment, you can hardly wrap yourself in a cloak of courage. Play a game with more than penny stakes. Risk your livelihood. Risk your freedom. Risk your family's financial security. Risk your life.

The PUA community is filled with people who claim their marshmallow balls are made of steel. But most of them don't even have the balls to post in public forums with their real names... traceable to their real identities. If they had an ounce of courage, they'd post on public forums using their real names, not lame handles to hide their identities from their boss, friends, and of course their mommy.

See what I mean? I can use shame just as easily, and most PUAs are easy targets. But does it really help?

Lets take Steve at 19 years old.

Say for instance, Steve at 19 years old is a virgin. As a 19 year old, Steve is very young. At 19 he becomes of age (here in Canada). He starts going out to the bars on weekends with some of his nerdy friends from college. The three of them stand around the bar, hoping a girl will start to talk to them. Maybe things will be good and they dance together and make out. Probably not though. Steve being the courageous man he is, attempts to approach a girl! GOD FORBID! The girl looks him up and down.. she turns away and doesn't give him the time of day.

Steve turns back to his friends in complete embarrassment. That night ends and he goes home to jerk off cause... well hes never been laid. He is fed up with his social life so he goes onto google and types in 'dating'. He finds some great material there. Some cool e-books and even some lines to try out! To Steve this is a godsend, the answers are here, he is learning the basics of attraction because no one has ever taught him. What about his Dad? HA! His dad is a joke and lives his life passively without any purpose.

After using the lines for a while, Steve realizes that they are stupid and discards them and looks for something a bit more natural because he realizes he doesn't have to use deceit. He finds other sources and so the journey continues.

Steve at 37 years old looks back at Steve at 19 and discards this as absolutely retarded and pointless.

Throwing judgement at younger boys who really have no idea what they're doing is pretty foolish. Whats that old adage, 'Young and stupid'? I'm sure Steve at 19 was like, 'Well these pickup lines don't align with the three pillars of Truth Love and Power, so I'm not going to use them"

Give me a break man and give these young guys a break. I know there are some guys who are really weird with how they've reacted to tactics in the dating community. Let them be, if they are too stupid to realize what they're doing is distancing themselves to who they are.

There are also a lot of good guys though who if they could get past the initial interactions with women could actually prove to be a very beneficial to their lives.

Who knows though...

P.S. I do use my real name on here (and on dating sites), I've even posted a picture and put my hometown. But I'm one of those weird guys

[90802]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

@Steve: Where you issued your mock-challenge:
It is important to accept and appreciate that FOR MANY, there is nothing close to as terrifying as would be attempting to engage in flirtatious conversation with a stranger they find sexually attractive.

Your own lack of compunction in this area is outstanding, and far from normal. I'm sure you've instilled sufficient personal social acceptance in your daughter that she would not hesitate to engage with someone interesting to her - but I'm also confident that you've lovingly warned her against engaging with unknown 'Grown Ups'. I suspect her ability to reconcile the two messages will be very challenging as she enters her teen-years!

For many, this fear of casual, playful, light social interaction is crippling. The very notion that someone might not mind being approached, inconceivable. (And yes, the word means what I think it means

I have had to address and conquer this issue with countless extremely highly-powered and effective clients (senior Fortune 500 executives, famous athletes, musicians, actors & other celebrities, as well as respected and accomplished professionals of all varieties) and I'm confident when I say that before working through it, ANY of them would more-willingly shoplift something from a store I might point out across the street, than begin a conversation with an attractive stranger I might point out standing in front of that store.

Such is the paralyzing power of societies inhibition towards socialization - and it must be BROKEN, in most people's cases. (This goes for BOTH genders, straights AND gays alike.)


Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

Ahh Johnny, ya got me! Let me embarras myself here and say that you've summed me up pretty damn good. I'm also a bit too old to be feeling this way about it

I'd love to ask you a ton of questions, but I think I'll hold off for now and just go with one:

Do you think online dating is a plus or minus for the, errrm, socially challenged? I have my own opinion, but will post it later.

[Daffy Duck]

Derek, I don't observe that Steve was throwing judgement at Murhpy. I see Steve expression his opinions on PUA, just like many other people have.

[DerekH]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

I have issues with them. I'm allergic to PUAs, I can't stand them. I don't know why. That's something I need to look at some time, just not now, I have other priorities now.

I have issues with hairy 30 year olds who prejudge someone before meeting them.



Just sayin...

[DerekH]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

Derek, I don't observe that Steve was throwing judgement at Murhpy. I see Steve expression his opinions on PUA, just like many other people have.

He doesn't know the full truth of it. In my post you could replace Steves name with mine and that's why I do what I do.

I'm just trying to make a point that we sometimes have to explore the dark side to realize their is a light side.

We find guys like Johnny and other companies who share our new found values like, honesty, making people feel good, liberating people, offering value.

[jaamkie]

Originally Posted by 90802

Do you think online dating is a plus or minus for the, errrm, socially challenged? I have my own opinion, but will post it later.

Not that you asked ME, but I have an opinion, and I'm always happy to share

While I've never paid to be part of a dating site, I've met guys through craigslist, and it is now my absolute favorite way to meet men (mostly cos a blank email is all the rope not-right men need to hang themselves without me even asking a question, and I like intelligent geeks who would go online to get dates). I don't build up fantasy "relationships", but just use it as a tool to find interesting blind dates, and then it's like normal dating from there on. I once replied to a one sentence ad for "geeky guy looking for a dinner and conversation tonight", had dinner that night, great conversation, and ended up eventually dating him for a bit.

I think the great pluses using craigslist or the like to schedule dates with random interesting women are:

- reduced amount of time to find someone you're actually interested by (assuming your criteria isn't entirely physical or whoever your friends identify as the "hottest girl", if you have to actually talk to the person to decide, it is quicker to browse ads/replies, and you don't have to make excuses/sneak away if not interested), and the fact that you can talk to many women in parallel.

- ease of the initial random introduction (both the anonymity, and the fact that people are specifically there to DATE, you know they want to be approached), and ease of brushing off any rejections (which are usually just disappointing silences that can be interpreted any way that salves the ego )

- when you meet, you've already got the woman's undivided attention and some basic info to start a conversation- an awkward first impression won't get you blown off, since she's specifically there to meet you.

- the fact that the women you meet probably don't know you from any other context- you can reinvent yourself and try new things without being bound by existing reputation or comfort zones, and if some experiments don't go over well, hey you'll never see her again!

on the other hand, I can imagine dating sites going horribly wrong if they distract from the goal of spending time with women IN PERSON, if they become endless emails and tweaking of profiles and overanalyzing a lot of nothing, or getting attached before you even know the woman (my approach is always that I know nothing about a person until I meet them offline).

for balance and to directly confront the fear of meeting new women, maybe structured speed-dating events would be a good way to force yourself into practicing short flirtatious introductory conversations.

btw if anyone wants to PM me with an ad/reply for a dating site, I'd be happy to give one woman's impression and suggestions

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

I have had to address and conquer this issue with countless extremely highly-powered and effective clients (senior Fortune 500 executives, famous athletes, musicians, actors & other celebrities, as well as respected and accomplished professionals of all varieties) and I'm confident when I say that before working through it, ANY of them would more-willingly shoplift something from a store I might point out across the street, than begin a conversation with an attractive stranger I might point out standing in front of that store.

Are you serious?

What about grand theft? I find it hard to believe that talking to a woman and risking... what... a mild rejection at best... is scarier to such people than committing a felony and risking time in prison. Maybe if you're just stealing a magazine and know you won't get caught, it could be no big deal though.

The funny thing is that when I was doing tons of shoplifting (often grand theft -- i.e. dollar value above $400), I was incredibly social too. Approaching and talking to new people seemed like nothing compared to all the other crazy stuff I was into. I knew nothing about PUA stuff back then, but it seems far more tame than getting fingerprinted and spending a night in jail. Even after having done plenty of stealing, I'd rather approach a hundred women on the street than steal something, moral issues notwithstanding.

Then again... a lot of people are deathly afraid of public speaking too, so maybe they share a common mindset that says other people are somehow a threat to them. Speaking can be a lot of fun once you get used to it, but most people don't progressively train themselves to handle it w/o fear.

[DerekH]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

The funny thing is that when I was doing tons of shoplifting (often grand theft -- i.e. dollar value above $400), I was incredibly social too. Approaching and talking to new people seemed like nothing compared to all the other crazy stuff I was into. I knew nothing about PUA stuff back then, but it seems far more tame than getting fingerprinted and spending a night in jail. Even after having done plenty of stealing, I'd rather approach a hundred women on the street than steal something, moral issues notwithstanding.

That's like saying if I scaled a 60 ft rock wall then going and talking to a girl on the street is a piece of cake. After all, I'm risking my life on that little rope.

You're comparing two different things.

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Are you serious?

Absolutely serious! I could tell you stories that would bring tears to your eyes... one client who is literally a famous rockstars, comfortable singing & playing in front of 40,000+ auditoriums, who wouldn't (therefore couldn't) walk across a room to introduce himself to an attractive woman at a coffeeshop! Another famous adult film star, been with well-over 1000 different sexy girls ON FILM, but utterly uncomfortable to approach anyone in 'the real world'...

To those of us who don't suffer from this degree of social paralysis, it seems incredible that there are so many out there who do...

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

What about grand theft? I find it hard to believe that talking to a woman and risking... what... a mild rejection at best... is scarier to such people than committing a felony and risking time in prison. Maybe if you're just stealing a magazine and know you won't get caught, it could be no big deal though.

Steve, scroll back to the reply from 90802! -

Please accept that what I'm describing is genuine, and while irrational, it presents an insurmountable challenge emotionally.

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Then again... a lot of people are deathly afraid of public speaking too, so maybe they share a common mindset that says other people are somehow a threat to them. Speaking can be a lot of fun once you get used to it, but most people don't progressively train themselves to handle it w/o fear.

BINGO - and that's why there's Toastmasters; and the 'Seduction Community' exists principally for men who've suffered under the misguidance that their acceptance by women DEFINED them - and at the same time, that women were The Enemy in the 'Battle of the Sexes'.

Madness, indeed - but more people ARE affected by this than are free from it!

Originally Posted by Derek H

That's like saying if I scaled a 60 ft rock wall then going and talking to a girl on the street is a piece of cake. After all, I'm risking my life on that little rope. You're comparing two different things.

Yes, Derek has it right: Being able comfortably to do one thing which is hazardous does NOT translate into being comfortable doing something else which might also be hazardous. The tightrope walker is generally NOT the snake charmer, nor the lion tamer!

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[Savage]

Originally Posted by DerekH

That's like saying if I scaled a 60 ft rock wall then going and talking to a girl on the street is a piece of cake. After all, I'm risking my life on that little rope.

You're comparing two different things.

The underlying process of progressively training yourself to overcome fear is the same. It really doesn't matter what the fear is -- fear of failure, fear of rejection, fear of embarrassment, fear of death, etc.

The more fears you systematically overcome, the easier it is to identify and overcome new fears, and the less fearful you become overall.

The courage I developed in my teen years made it easy for me to take risks in my 20s years later. It didn't matter that this courage was developed by doing illegal stuff, and I was applying it to making business decisions. Courage is courage.

Previous acts of courage can also serve as powerful reference experiences. You can tell yourself, "If I was able to do X, then surely I can do Y." Then you take action to do Y, even though it may be something you've never done before.

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

The underlying process of progressively training yourself to overcome fear is the same. It really doesn't matter what the fear is -- fear of failure, fear of rejection, fear of embarrassment, fear of death, etc.

Yes, on the RATIONAL level. Phobias, however, exist strictly on an irrational level. That's why I advocate hypnotherapy for my clients (as opposed to straight conscious behavior-mod) with particularly deep-seated, emotionally imprinted issues.

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[DerekH]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

The underlying process of progressively training yourself to overcome fear is the same. It really doesn't matter what the fear is -- fear of failure, fear of rejection, fear of embarrassment, fear of death, etc.

The more fears you systematically overcome, the easier it is to identify and overcome new fears, and the less fearful you become overall.

The courage I developed in my teen years made it easy for me to take risks in my 20s years later. It didn't matter that this courage was developed by doing illegal stuff, and I was applying it to making business decisions. Courage is courage.

Previous acts of courage can also serve as powerful reference experiences. You can tell yourself, "If I was able to do X, then surely I can do Y." Then you take action to do Y, even though it may be something you've never done before.

Oh I definitely agree with that, it was just how you wrote it made it come across differently.

[90802]

Hmmm, maybe I need to clarify. I'm not saying I'd commit robbery instead of approaching a hot woman, I'm just saying it may take me about half an hour to make up my mind

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by DerekH

I have issues with hairy 30 year olds who prejudge someone before meeting them.

This kind of remark reminds me of something I've read frequently when I've come across PUA descriptions of what some guys do on their nights out. It's about how guys cut down other guys who are trying to enter their set, trying to sabotage them by finding the most sensitive thing about them and then using it against them. I've also read about how some guys use some sort of technique on women, to make the girls feel a lot less secure and confident about themselves and eventually because of that and other things, they'll end feeling more attracted toward the guy.

So, here you are, bringing up something from another thread where Rose declared something that makes her feel quite unattractive and she is unhappy about. You bring it up here in this thread as an offhand remark when she writes about how she doesn't like PUA in reply to this thread which is about what's to like and not like about PUA. I find this practice deplorable of trying to aim for someone's weakest known point whenever they say something you don't like. Mind you, Rose is too strong of a woman to let a remark like yours affect her, but I find this pratice still deplorable.

Maybe you didn't mean to do this, but that remark of yours reminded me of another reason I don't generally like the PUA community.