A question re: PUA and relationships

[Keith]

PUA seems like a great way to meet women, but I was wondering: does it colour the possibility of a long-term relationship? Are relationships started through PUA skills more or less likely to last in the long-term?

Thanks.

[cacheborn]

As far as I know, most PUA help you getting a date. They even cover things to do and not to do on a date. After that you are pretty much on your own. I have not seen anybody covering relationships, long-term or otherwise.

[Xanafax]

PUA is about augmenting your ability to interact with women, that's all it is, it is not a concentrated therapy that will solve all your problems, if you can't hold long term relationships with women no amount of skill or learning will help, these are personal issues you have to respond to yourself.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Xanafax

PUA is about augmenting your ability to interact with women, that's all it is, it is not a concentrated therapy that will solve all your problems, if you can't hold long term relationships with women no amount of skill or learning will help, these are personal issues you have to respond to yourself.

I understand that. I was interested more in whether use of PUA techniques 'taints' the relationship that follows. For example: Does it make it harder to have a meaningful relationship if it was started 'artificially'?

I recall Neil Strauss saying that, as his skill with women improved, his respect for them decreased.

That sort of thing.

Thanks.

[cacheborn]

Does it make it harder to have a meaningful relationship if it was started 'artificially'?

This is one of the points made by David Wygant, a well-known dating couch. So his approach is based on real life situations and not some artificial opener. Also, I think he specialises in the day-game.

[Neblasian]

Tricks and seduction techniques will get may a one night but a loving relationship requires no such gimmicks. In the book "The Game" by Neil Strauss Mystery succumbed to major depression each time a girlfriend dump him. This is a guy that reportedly slept with hundreds of women. Even Neil Strauss found it hard to get the girl he really wanted. I wanted to go the pua route but realized it was empty.


Best Regards

Neblasian

[pyrogen]

Anything can help that gets a guy over being an Average Frustrated Chump, just as stuff like 'The Rules' 'Why Men Love Bitches' and 'Stop Getting Dumped' can help women who are Average Frustrated Chicks.

I've been with AFCs of both the Chick and Chump variety, and I've been an Average Frustrated Chick.

Here is the trouble of being in a relationship with an AFC:

If they are the AFC, you are probably an AFC too. AFCs get together and have very mediocre, dull relationships based upon two people settling, that probably contribute a great deal to the high divorce rate.

You are never really sure if the person is into *you* or if they just couldn't have someone "higher on their ladder". You never really feel secure. And you know that YOU settled, TOO. You never really feel sure that the other person is really in love with you, and don't experience what it's like to be with someone to whom you are really truly attracted, and vice versa.

Where it specifically applies to men/PUAs: lots of men get into relationships with women based upon being "unable to get laid". You end up with a long-term one night stand, not a true relationship based upon real connection. This isn't fair to the other party.

[funchy]

Just say no to the PUA mindset. It's not a "game" and women are more than notches on a bedpost. As a woman i find it somewhere between amusing and offensive, depending.

Forget the PUA stuff. Just be yourself. Get out there. Talk to people. The best way to learn to relate to others is to go out there and do it... not sit in front of a computer watching videos of guys tell you how they think women think.

IMO, the PUA-pickups are far less likely to result in a real relationship. From the moment you meet her, she only knows the act, not the real you. When do you let the real you show? Can you ever?

Also consider that most women have good BS detectors. Sometimes we'll smile and play along with fabricated pick-up lines, but that doesn't mean we can't spot the PUAs and wannabe-players. Some women may spot the novice PUA and write the guy off as weak. The women looking for more than a pick-up will usually avoid the total PUA unless you're an excellent liar. If you're a good liar, this prevents a normal relationship from occurring. If you're a bad liar and you eventually do get a girl to buy into the act, she may be the kind of girl you DON'T want to keep around.

[cacheborn]

Forget the PUA stuff. Just be yourself. Get out there. Talk to people. The best way to learn to relate to others is to go out there and do it... not sit in front of a computer watching videos of guys tell you how they think women think.

I agree. But the problem is there are so many guys who would rather jump from a cliff or slay a dragon but when it comes to talking to women, they just freeze. And the more beautiful she is, harder it gets. Usually, for such guys PUA teaches them the first step which is the opener. Then they realise that just opening is not enough, so they learn routines. But you cannot use routines on a date, so they learn how to engage in good conversation. PUA teaches you how to be charming, how to flirt, how to have a high EQ, how to listen to women, how to respond to them.

It is unfortunate that the word game conveys a different meaning. In reality, game has nothing to do with women. It is your mind and how you behave that are called inner game and outer game. Initially, I had the same impression of PUA but gradually I realised that to get women, you have to develop confidence, social skills. You have to love yourself first. Thats the reason why so many PUA's are referring to stevepavlina.com

[chrisentheo]

Originally Posted by Keith

Are relationships started through PUA skills more or less likely to last in the long-term?

I think PUA is more the icebreaker and technique. In the long term PUA seems deceiving and not the real you. Its a way to attract a woman, but maintaining the attraction, PUA can only do so much before the woman loses interest of the 'novelty.' There is only so much 'sarging' and 'negging' you can do before you run out of techniques. My 2c

[Michael Chui]

When should you call a woman after having sex with her? - Fast Seduction 101 Player Guide

Managing many relationships at once - Fast Seduction 101 Player Guide

[Keith]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

You are never really sure if the person is into *you* or if they just couldn't have someone "higher on their ladder". You never really feel secure.

Surely though, if you use artificial material to get someone interested in you, you can never be sure if the person is into you or into the material.

If I got a job using forged credentials I would never feel confident that I legitimately deserved to be there. How is it different if I get a woman using a forged personality?

Originally Posted by chrisentheo

I think PUA is more the icebreaker and technique. In the long term PUA seems deceiving and not the real you. Its a way to attract a woman, but maintaining the attraction, PUA can only do so much before the woman loses interest of the 'novelty.' There is only so much 'sarging' and 'negging' you can do before you run out of techniques. My 2c

Interesting perspective, thanks.

Originally Posted by Neblasian

In the book "The Game" by Neil Strauss Mystery succumbed to major depression each time a girlfriend dump him. This is a guy that reportedly slept with hundreds of women.

To be fair, Mystery suffered from mental illness long before he became a PUA, so he's probably not the most representative sample.

[philipnet]

Just re-read the end of "The Game" by Neil Strauss, aka Style.
In it he says, that everything he learned about pickup ruined him for relationships.

[pyrogen]

I'm probably one of the few women out there who isn't hurt/offended/whatever by the whole PUA phenomenon. Then again, I did "The Rules" for years, and I don't see how it's that different. It's just that PUA aims at what men tend to be after and The Rules aims at what women tend to be after. So many of the principles are the same, it's scary!

After getting dumped by three boyfriends in a row, I was taught a version of "The Rules" by a *man* who was a PUA, when I was 16, before that book even was published, so "The Rules" may actually have its root in PUA for all we know. This PUA may have been a member of an earlier (80s/90s) PUA subculture in Los Angeles. And he was also up on Law of Attraction before very many people knew about it.

He taught me about the games that men play, and how men think.

One thing he taught me was to never be seen too often in the same venue by men I was interested in, or was trying to hold as a boyfriend. Let the guy think I had this busy active social life whether it existed or not; I could even make up rumors for my friends to pass around (really mature stuff there). Never pick up the phone the first time he calls, screen my calls, don't answer every email (the BBSs - the "Ancient Internet" - were a huge social venue for me), don't initiate. I could open the first contact as "friends" (because according to this guy's theories, most guys think that's a come-on anyway) but then the guy would have to close the deal. Don't kiss on the first date or let on that I was too interested. Don't be too available. Keep the balance of power on my side, about 70/30... don't give him enough attention that he feels he has me, but give just enough to keep interested.

Sounds like 1950s grandma wisdom, some of it, right? I was taught by a guy.

I fell prey to the syndrome that happens to people who play games - you lose respect for what you can manipulate.

It backfired on me. I only fell for people who played better than I did who could back-end all of my checklists. The better a "player" I was, in the female version, the more susceptible I was to really masterful male players. A movie that's a must-watch for anyone who plays games of any kind, is "Boomerang" with Eddie Murphy, it's about this very phenomenon.

Eventually I came to really dislike men. I've been out as bisexual since 16 but I took the extra leap and lived as a lesbian for a while.

And found out... what it was like to date women, and what men go through.

I started to understand men a heckuvalot better... as human beings.

I went from being confident in hetero settings to being totally an Average Frustrated Chick and making all the same dumb "nice guy" moves with women.

After I learned to see men as human beings again it was a short step from that to being able to work with them and be better at being friends with them and even the potential to love them again.

So, do I think this stuff is great stuff? Not necessarily.
It's scary to look back on my old relationships and know exactly, in retrospect, at what point what "Rule" I broke and why the relationship failed.

Do I think it can be helpful? Yes.

You can come at your gender of preference from a place of honesty, love and respect. Some people though need to learn to stop being used, and to wield their personal power, before they can even get to a more adult place.

All this stuff really only applies to "night game" which I'll extend to include the singles world in general. It doesn't mean a thing for people you meet as friends, for people you meet in the "real world". Being in the singles world is a totally different skillset.

[chrisentheo]

Originally Posted by philipnet

Just re-read the end of "The Game" by Neil Strauss, aka Style.
In it he says, that everything he learned about pickup ruined him for relationships.

Also, this is a 'story' and not an actual biography/autobiography. Its made to make people aware of the whole PUA society and certainly not a guide on how to suceed with PUA.

Its a great way to meet women and get them into bed, lets all be honest, the whole PUA intention is 99% about 'closing' or sealing the deal.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

before that book even was published, so "The Rules" may actually have its root in PUA for all we know. This PUA may have been a member of an earlier (80s/90s) PUA subculture in Los Angeles. And he was also up on Law of Attraction before very many people knew about it.

All the stuff is probably originally sourced from here:

Medieval Sourcebook: Andreas Capellanus: The Art of Courtly Love, c.1174-1186

Which, amusingly, has some interesting contrasts.

[pyrogen]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

All the stuff is probably originally sourced from here:

Medieval Sourcebook: Andreas Capellanus: The Art of Courtly Love, c.1174-1186

Which, amusingly, has some interesting contrasts.

Interesting. Reading that gave me an epiphany. "The Rules" seems to have more in common with how a courtesan would operate, than how a woman would traditionally get a husband in many cultures and even many American subcultures. The Rules wasn't written for churchgoing working class women or even Middle America types. It was written for women who want to marry men who are professionals. Rulesgirls don't actually hold out for marriage or even engagement. They play the sex game with a set of rules... after the third date, his place not yours, and leave first (make him chase you down if he wants to have breakfast together).

"The Rules" is predicated on the idea that upper class men these days look for a legally sanctioned courtesan relationship rather than a traditionally defined marriage. "The Rules" has very little to do with dating customs of working class people or religious communities.

It's amusing to see people here really make a study of the Don Juans and Casanovas of the world while forgetting about their female counterpart, the Madame de Pompadours of the world.

I had more issues with "player" collisions when doing The Rules than when not doing any special technique at all. The players know how to play The Rules better than the sincere men do. Trying to do The Rules around a bunch of nerds/geeks is an exercise in futility. Every subculture has its own rules.

My criticism of The Rules is that it's a double edged sword and it can end up playing right into the same predatory hands that the woman is trying to manipulate.

Rulesgirls have as much derision for AFCs as PUAs do; in Rules terminology they're called "moonpies".

I have really got to make a side-by-side comparison of all the Rules/PUA techniques and the terms they use.

The only reason this doesn't seem to apply much anymore is because the Rules have become kind of passe, the Rules subculture has diminished and the online communities are less active,
and a number of other books have come along since, that are more popular... though every single one has ridden on the coattails of that book.

But damn, if PUA and Rules aren't practically identical. The only real difference is that PUAs are trying to get sex and Rulesgirls are trying to get married. They mean different things by closing the deal. For a RG to "close the deal" means either engagement in a year or dump him.
But damn if they don't play right into each other's hands. I think I found one of those natural enemy relationships. If only "Nature" wanted to cover this.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

I have really got to make a side-by-side comparison of all the Rules/PUA techniques and the terms they use.

Please do. I would challenge you to be as scholarly as you can about it, though I'd just as soon suggest you publish your first draft anyways.

Originally Posted by pyrogen

But damn if they don't play right into each other's hands. I think I found one of those natural enemy relationships. If only "Nature" wanted to cover this.

Nature covered Britannica v. Wikipedia. I don't see why they'd shrink from a well-written essay on the much vaunted Battle of the Genders. Er, Sexes. Yes. I meant that.

[yintherapy]

My boyfriend studied pick-up and it seemed to help him meet more women and learn how to make them feel comfortable and wanted (as opposed to annoyed or creeped out). Meeting more women increases the chances of finding one that's compatible with you, especially if you apply pick-up in the right places (e.g. NOT clubs, bars). When we met for the first time, I appreciated that he wasn't intimidated by me (because he'd had plenty of experience talking to women) and he knew how to escalate (versus guys who want to touch or kiss me but are too terrified to do so). So yeah, I'd say PUA material can be useful in meeting women, and starting things off on the right foot. What happens beyond the first few dates, however, is in the realm of personal growth, and that's not something PUA is really about (actually, the Ideagasms stuff was, but their focus has since shifted).

[Murphy]

Here's how I define PUA/The Seduction Community:

Seduction Community = Getting good with women

Of course getting into the seduction community improves the likely hood of having a successful relationship, thats the whole point.

To say that PUA could possibly harm your chances of having a relationship is a total logical fallacy. Your confusing the idea of "success with women" with a particular technique or trick.

(Most likely routine and ego based game based on getting good reactions from women to boost your state.)

[Murphy]

Originally Posted by Xanafax

PUA is about augmenting your ability to interact with women, that's all it is, it is not a concentrated therapy that will solve all your problems, if you can't hold long term relationships with women no amount of skill or learning will help, these are personal issues you have to respond to yourself.

WRONG - You can be the coolest most self assured guy in the world with absolutely no issues and still suck with women if you don't understand their basic psychology.

Let me ask you this as well. Are you in the community? Are you good with women? Because if you're not you really shouldn't be commenting on this thread.

[Murphy]

Originally Posted by Neblasian

Tricks and seduction techniques will get may a one night but a loving relationship requires no such gimmicks.

Uhuh. Next time your girlfriend gets upset with you and you don't know why I want you to remember this. I know why. Because I've studied seduction. It's not a gimmick to understand women

Originally Posted by Neblasian

In the book "The Game" by Neil Strauss Mystery succumbed to major depression each time a girlfriend dump him.

Yes because he has a history of depression. Getting into the game doesn't mean you going to start getting depressed.

Originally Posted by Neblasian

Even Neil Strauss found it hard to get the girl he really wanted.

Yeah, cause he wasn't good enough yet. Plus a lot of the mindsets and techniques he used are outdated. Nobody said it was easy.

[Murphy]

Originally Posted by philipnet

Just re-read the end of "The Game" by Neil Strauss, aka Style.
In it he says, that everything he learned about pickup ruined him for relationships.

No he doesn't. And he wouldn't even have had a relationship without pick up.

[Parthon]

Originally Posted by Murphy

WRONG - You can be the coolest most self assured guy in the world with absolutely no issues and still suck with women if you don't understand their basic psychology.

Let me ask you this as well. Are you in the community? Are you good with women? Because if you're not you really shouldn't be commenting on this thread.

I'm confused here Murphy, are you saying the Pickup community will help solve your other problems including those surrounding long term relationships?

You said he was wrong about the community only helping with your ability to interact with women, by using an example of where someone needs help interacting with women.

Or is it that as your improve your ability to interact with women, your ability to be in a relationship also improves? And that learning to pickup is more about learning the woman's pscyhe rather than tricks and deceptions?

[Murphy]

Originally Posted by Parthon

I'm confused here Murphy, are you saying the Pickup community will help solve your other problems including those surrounding long term relationships?

You said he was wrong about the community only helping with your ability to interact with women, by using an example of where someone needs help interacting with women.

Or is it that as your improve your ability to interact with women, your ability to be in a relationship also improves? And that learning to pickup is more about learning the woman's pscyhe rather than tricks and deceptions?

I've confused even myself here.

But your basically right in your assessment in the last paragraph. Xanafax is saying that if you can't hold a long term relationship then there must be something wrong with you. But there are other issues. Like understanding womens psychology. I think its wrong to tar men as losers just because they aren't very good with women.

But whilst it's not what I was saying in that post, your also right in the first paragraph.
Pick Up is heavily tied into Personal Development. Its a highly Practical form of personal development. It will also - or has for me - solve other problems like self esteem issues.