Converting Girl Friends into 'Girlfriends'

[Johnny Soporno]

I ran this by a giggle of girlfriends who ALL, UNIFORMLY agreed with me - but this ONLY works with REAL friendships... not girls whom you've only befriended because you couldn't get them to sleep with you....

Here goes:
Women want to have fun.
Women love to have sex!

This may include Recreational-Only Sex with MEN THEY KNOW THEY CAN TRUST!

Naturally, anyone they consider truly a friend would fall into that category - BUT NO ONE WANTS TO RISK LOSING A FRIEND!

Therefore most women won't chance beginning a sexual relationship where there is currently a solid friendship.
THEREFORE IT IS ESSENTIAL that the girl understands she absolutely won't lose your friendship either way, and that
YOU ARE OFFERING HER SOMETHING - NOT ASKING FOR ANYTHING!

The decision is ALWAYS in her court.

Most women have learned the hard-way that IF they sleep with a guy whom they respect, appreciate, and admire - BUT ARE NOT OVERLY TURNED ON BY - it will end badly, when the guy begins to wish to become their 'Boyfriend'. They will lose their opportunity to be 'Just Friends' with that guy once things sort themselves out, because HIS ego will be bruised and he won't be able to forgive her for the 'rejection' he feels.

IF YOU COMMUNICATE TO A FEMALE FRIEND IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS:

A ) YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED IN BEING HER BOYFRIEND, nor do you want her as 'your Girlfriend' -- 'cuz while the respect/friendship/admiration is there in abundance, the chemistry isn't a fit - there's no 'Romantic Crush' aspect for how you feel about her - Just true, real, justifiable appreciation, and that's enough!

B ) YOU ARE ALREADY HER FRIEND which makes her much more important and interesting than just someone you'd like to have sex with - and you wouldn't change that for the world; BUT.... You are a boy, and she is a girl, and that's a nice arrangement.

Try saying something like this to her: "You know I would NEVER fcuk-you-over; ...But I'd gladly fcuk you over-and-over!"
(I have used this line for a decade with fantastic success - it's light and cute and funny and reassuring all at once)

C) YOU DEFINATELY DON'T WANT TO INTERFERE WITH HER PURSUIT OF 'MR. RIGHT' nor would you stop pursuing and sleeping with other girls... in fact, you'd appreciate any pointers or suggestions which would help your Game, and of course you'll be more than happy to hook her up with new guys you think might suit her...

D) YOU'RE GOING TO LEAVE THIS WITH HER - and there's truly no urgency at all - nothing will change between you either way; at least, not negatively ...but you know you'd be a fool not to let her know that you'd enjoy having friendly-fun-without-strings with her, and that she can rely upon you for non-judgemental acceptance.

That last bit, the 'non-judgemental acceptance', is a FANTASTIC OFFER for any woman. It guarantees her the security she craves, and relaxes the fears she may have about her reputation's being damaged by her taking you up on your offer...

You are offering her a 'FREE PASS' - because YOU WON'T COUNT!
When she considers the number of guys she'll admit to having 'been with' - SHE WON'T 'COUNT' YOU - You're her FRIEND!
There's no 'romance' there, no chance of a 'serious relationship', and no need to write-about you in her diary... YOU SIMPLY WON'T COUNT!

REMEMBER, that's what's happening here: YOU ARE OFFERING HER SOMETHING SHE WANTS, and at a price she can afford!
(ie, fun sex with someone who will stick around, be loyal (though not exclusive!) and trustworthy, and IS her friend-for-real.)

My comfort in this Frame, the notion that WOMEN LOVE SEX, and would have lots more of it if they felt confident that their partners weren't going to disappear OR become Cling-ons, is absolute.

One caveat, again - YOU CAN ONLY OFFER THIS IF YOU TRULY WILL REMAIN FRIENDS WITH THE GIRL, EITHER WAY:

She might not immediately accept your offer; she might not agree for months, or until someone she's seeing flakes on her, breaks up with her, or whatever; or maybe NEVER. But if you are SINCERE, and nothing changes either way between you, you will rise in her esteem and SHE WILL consider it, subconciously as well as conciously.

If you are faking, if you change your behaviour towards her once you make the offer, if you are trying to GET HER rather than offer yourself TO HER, she'll sniff it out, and you'll seriously drop in her estimation. Maybe costing you the friendship.

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[Elenny]

Really? Okay.

How fitting that your name is Johnny SoPORNO.

Seems you got your knowledge from a PORNO!!

[RRR]

This style of friendship has worked wonders for me. I listened to your lectures about a year ago and they entirely changed they way I socialize. The only issues I have run into with this is when I lived from a scarcity mindset. When I didn't go out and find other women and started to rely on a small few for sex; I began to count and things entirely changed for the worse. This line also begins to blur when you are completely emotionally intimate, it seems if you aren't internally completely settled on not counting you will be tested for it over time.

I have a question. What do you describe yourself as when you are "just friends"? I would say that and it tended to raise problems. Does this indicate I had begun to count? What should I do once I've begun to count and I don't want to? It felt that the time I began to count was around the same time we became closer emotionally..which I enjoy just as much as the sex.

Did you behave this way when you first met your primary? Do you maintain this kind of relationship with all the women you are with?

Its great to have you here Johnny. Welcome to the boards.

[ajkumar]

interesting video.

[Steve Pavlina]

FYI Johnny posted this here partly as an answer to a question that I asked him. He and his girlfriend Violet were hanging out at our house for a few hours this afternoon. The four of us had a delightful conversation about relationships, polyamory, and more.

He and Violet are an amazing couple with a successful open relationship.

[ajkumar]

sounds like Tom Lykis

[Dan.Linehan]

Also known as "friends with benefits".

Not exactly a new concept..

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Also known as "friends with benefits"

Yes, that's a common term for it

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Not exactly a new concept..

Of course not - it has been going on since time immemorial. That said, few people have actually EVER been able to develop such friendships - and that is why I have written out the Frame here, in its entirety, so that EVERYONE can experience the rewards of non-exclusive, non-possessive persistent relationships, with quality people.

I hope this helps!

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by RRR

This style of friendship has worked wonders for me. I listened to your lectures about a year ago and they entirely changed they way I socialize.

Thanks for the feedback, RRR. I am delighted to learn of the overlap between Steve & Erin's appreciators and my own

My seminars are still available for free downloading from 'Worthy Playboy'(tm) Johnny Soporno presents: Introduction to Seductive Reasoning 101 - un-edited, live recording - there are now six hour-long segments, where there had been only two last year, so please feel free to grab the last two, but ideally rewatch them from the beginning - there are some monumental reframes in the initial four segments, and watching them again after putting them into play will reveal an astonishing amount more that you'd surely missed the first-past!

Originally Posted by RRR

I have a question. What do you describe yourself as when you are "just friends"?

I never describe myself that way - I never deliniate 'JUST' in front of 'friends', as I find it demeaning, and frankly rather tragic. I simply refer to us as 'friends'.

Whose business is it if we sleep together, aside from our own, after all?

Originally Posted by RRR

I would say that and it tended to raise problems. Does this indicate I had begun to count? What should I do once I've begun to count and I don't want to? It felt that the time I began to count was around the same time we became closer emotionally..which I enjoy just as much as the sex.

The 'not counting' quality is meant merely as a stop-gap, whilst assisting your female friends in recognizing that there is NEVER ANY REASON TO "COUNT" their lovers, period.

It is NEVER anyone else's business but their own.

Originally Posted by RRR

Did you behave this way when you first met your primary? Do you maintain this kind of relationship with all the women you are with?

I work to emancipate women from the oppression of society's insistence that any woman who does not follow the 'traditional wifely role' must be decried and condemned for her wickedness... and brow-beaten by friends and family until she recants, via phrases like "When are you going to settle down/grow up/take your life seriously/raise a family?"

I do not ask my playmates to reveal their 'count' to me, either the public number, or the actual one.

Originally Posted by RRR

Its great to have you here Johnny. Welcome to the boards.

Thanks again, RRR - I hope to be able to contribute regularly!

Johnny Soporno
'The Man Who Didn't Count'

[jaamkie]

Another girl here who agrees with this advice (though the "count" bit is ridiculous). I've had various friends-with-benefits situations where for whatever reason it was clear from the start that it wasn't going to be a "relationship". OP is exactly right that women's biggest reasons not to have sex are that the guy is going to fall into puppy-love, or that they guy is going to be an ****** and forget about the friendship part and only spend time if he can get some. I've had both happen to me multiple times, and have learned to recognize those guys, and decide from the start if I want to go down one of those paths again.

The first set of guys are the emotionally-unavailable, negative-opinion-of-women guys- the stereotypical jackass pick-up artists. I don't mind sleeping with them, they can be fun/amusing, but one of the important qualities that I'm attracted to is a habit of kindness/openness/generosity. These guys lack that, so I'd never be satisfied to be in a monogamous relationship with them, and I know from the start I can't depend on them. I shouldn't be surprised, but I'm always disappointed, when I get into a more serious relationship and want to stop being physical with them, they tend to become much less available/interested in spending time with me, and then I'm hurt cos all along we have great conversations and they seem like a friend.

Then there are the usually-overweight puppy-love guys, who tend to want to date me at first but never quite admit it, so we end up in a fawning obsessive friendship. Of course I enjoy the attention, am clear with them that I don't think we'll have a relationship, and then sometimes end up messing around with them physically. Somehow the original and continued reminders that I don't want a relationship get overridden by all the good-emotional-and-physical-connection moments, and they start to see me as a potential girlfriend. Eventually I have to be harsh to pop their fantasy-bubble, and they're usually hurt and stop wanting to spend time with me.

Anyway, my point is, if you want the woman as a girlfriend, be honest and go for it from the start, don't let yourself get emotionally attached while she sees you as a friend.

[Magicinthenight]

Originally Posted by jaamkie

Anyway, my point is, if you want the woman as a girlfriend, be honest and go for it from the start, don't let yourself get emotionally attached while she sees you as a friend.

Agree. This would be the biggest thing that could cause issues. So you really can't want to be her boyfriend or wish that once she sleeps with you, your prowess will convince her she wants you as her boyfriend.

I think the friends with benefits/f-buddies thing can work quite well as long as neither parties are emotionally attached and accept the situation.

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by Magicinthenight

I think the friends with benefits/f-buddies thing can work quite well as long as neither parties are emotionally attached and accept the situation.

In my own experience, there is always SOME emotional attachment, albeit often strictly an 'agape' aspect of love, devoid of romantic delusions or erotic aggrandizement - and that is KEY as to why these encounters can be such an enhancement to an otherwise adequate and comfortable relationship.

Acceptance that the situation might never (and likely SHOULD never change) removes the greatest challenges to an ongoing, enriching situation.

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[SomeRandomGuy]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

A ) YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED IN BEING HER BOYFRIEND, nor do you want her as 'your Girlfriend' -- 'cuz while the respect/friendship/admiration is there in abundance, the chemistry isn't a fit - there's no 'Romantic Crush' aspect for how you feel about her - Just true, real, justifiable appreciation, and that's enough!

I would like to ask for one clarification. The subject of this thread is

Converting Girl Friends to 'Girlfriends'

You specifically, however, mention telling the girl that you do not want her as 'your Girlfriend'. Is this simply a matter of the subject not entirely matching the message of the post? Or are you suggesting that to get a girl to become your girlfriend you should tell her you do not want her as a girlfriend?

[pyrogen]

As someone who's had many male friends (and either been their object of affection, or watched them make mistake after mistake with their own objects of affection), this is my two cents about how to make a girl friend into a girlfriend...

DON'T. Don't get on the friends track if you're looking to date and attracted to the woman. You won't get anywhere. If you want to date her, start off dating her. Make your intentions known from the beginning. Stay consistent, too.

If you started off friends, or she turned you down and you stayed friends (with ulterior motives), and she accepts whatever you offer while not actually dating you, it's not her fault, it's yours.

[Steve Pavlina]

Erin and I began as close friends first without entering a dating frame. I was actually dating someone else when Erin and I first met. Erin and I smoothly transitioned from friends to lovers. Sex became an extension of our intimate friendship. It was wonderful.

With an open, conscious friendship, this can definitely work. And the awesome thing about it is that genuine frienship, rather than fleeting physical attraction, becomes the core basis of the relationship.

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by SomeRandomGuy

A ) YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED IN BEING HER BOYFRIEND, nor do you want her as 'your Girlfriend' -- 'cuz while the respect/friendship/admiration is there in abundance, the chemistry isn't a fit - there's no 'Romantic Crush' aspect for how you feel about her - Just true, real, justifiable appreciation, and that's enough!

I would like to ask for one clarification. The subject of this thread is converting girl friends to 'girlfriends' - You specifically, however, mention telling the girl that you do not want her as 'your Girlfriend'.

Is this simply a matter of the subject not entirely matching the message of the post? Or are you suggesting that to get a girl to become your girlfriend you should tell her you do not want her as a girlfriend?[/quote]

Neither: This is a distinction between ROLES and TITLES - which I cover in another thread, HERE.

I'm explicitly speaking about adding a sexual component to an existing friendship, without risking (or altering substantively) said existing, enduring, ongoing, and valuable friendship.

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[jaamkie]

There's a difference between a friendship that can't go further for external reasons that may change, and a friendship that can't go further because at least one of the people doesn't really want a relationship with the other. I think the point I and others were trying to make is that trying to first befriend a woman because you're scared to just ask her out and maybe get rejected is a foolish strategy; as is frustrating yourself by hoping to be with someone who has clearly let you know they don't want to be more than your friend.

People here talk about the "friend zone", but I think they're confusing correlation with causation. Women don't move men from "datable" to "not-datable" because he starts out just getting to know her as a friend, but women don't date every man that comes along (just as men don't date every woman that comes along), even if they're willing to befriend him; so often they'll be your friend thinking that's all there is to it, and then will turn down the man trying to make it more, just as they would've turned him down if he approached her for a relationship from the start. Of course, if during the time you're friends with a woman, she sees unattractive traits such as dishonesty or callousness with others, particularly with others you date, her feelings might change; but they would've changed anyway once she saw those traits while dating you herself.

[HealingMaven]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

My seminars are still available for free downloading from 'Worthy Playboy'(tm) Johnny Soporno presents: Introduction to Seductive Reasoning 101 - un-edited, live recording

Very interesting. (FYI: I'm a poly-identifying woman.) I actually started watching these yesterday, after Steve twittered about hanging out with you and your lady. I've only watched/listened to about 2 1/2 of these so far but I'm finding them quite interesting. Aside from occasional overgeneralizations of women & explicit references to facials, (not that there's anything wrong with them, but I find it to be a strong personal turnoff, especially as it strikes me as a less safe sex practice) I like the videos a lot. I like them quite a bit MORE than your written pieces. I think in this topic, it's incredibly easy for the written word to come across as judgemental, unrealistic, or frankly, sleazy. (Not saying YOU are, saying the written words can sound that way.)

(This last bit about the spoken being far more reasonable and less sleazy than the written is aimed more at others than you. Because I did see the above commented who dismissed you quickly and honestly, I can see why. The tone is very promo-material, which isn't surprising on your website, but slightly more surprising on these forums.)

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

I never describe myself that way - I never deliniate 'JUST' in front of 'friends', as I find it demeaning, and frankly rather tragic. I simply refer to us as 'friends'.

I really like this. There is no ONLY about friends. Friendship is awesome. Friendship is treasure.

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by HealingMaven

I actually started watching [your videos] yesterday, after Steve twittered about hanging out with you and your lady. I've only watched/listened to about 2 1/2 of these so far but I'm finding them quite interesting.

Thanks for the feedback, presuming you're using the word 'interesting' in the positive sense, rather than in the "What did you think of her shoes?" "They were interesting" sense!

Originally Posted by HealingMaven

Aside from occasional overgeneralizations of women & explicit references to facials, (not that there's anything wrong with them, but I find it to be a strong personal turnoff, especially as it strikes me as a less safe sex practice)

Please forgive the MANY gross over-generalizations; my physical audience was a group of approximately one hundred men, aged 20-50, and I knew that if I were to have taken enough time to ensure adequate balance in my assessments, I would not be able to maintain the tempo necessary to remain engaging.

As for the safety of semen facials, I am dedicated to a regimen of condom-use and aggressive hygiene, and am tested for a broad spectrum of STIs monthly, (for professional reasons, via AIM Healthcare - Home) thereby ensuring there is NO potential for transmission of anything.

But you're definitely correct, from a random stranger, risking sperm entering your body through your eye is unwise!

Originally Posted by HealingMaven

I like the videos a lot. I like them quite a bit MORE than your written pieces. I think in this topic, it's incredibly easy for the written word to come across as judgemental, unrealistic, or frankly, sleazy.

Good point - I hope more people will grab the free videos as a result of yours, Steve's & Erin's supportive comments!

Johnny Soporno
'Worthy Playboy'(tm) Johnny Soporno presents: Introduction to Seductive Reasoning 101 - un-edited, live recording

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

As someone who's had many male friends (and either been their object of affection, or watched them make mistake after mistake with their own objects of affection), this is my two cents about how to make a girl friend into a girlfriend...

DON'T. Don't get on the friends track if you're looking to date and attracted to the woman. You won't get anywhere.

Precisely! That's why I preface the OP with this:

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

this ONLY works with REAL friendships... not girls whom you've only befriended because you couldn't get them to sleep with you....

Originally Posted by pyrogen

If you want to date her, start off dating her. Make your intentions known from the beginning. Stay consistent, too.

If you started off friends, or she turned you down and you stayed friends (with ulterior motives), and she accepts whatever you offer while not actually dating you, it's not her fault, it's yours.

Bingo!

That said, if the friendship IS genuine, and would exist regardless of gender, then the most likely reason there has never been a sexual component is described in the OP - and that reason might be mitigated and overcome if the sentiments and understandings I've put forward here can be shared with your friend.

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[HealingMaven]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

Thanks for the feedback, presuming you're using the word 'interesting' in the positive sense, rather than in the "What did you think of her shoes?" "They were interesting" sense!

*laughter* Oh yes! Definitely interesting in the positive sense! I don't agree with everything, certainly, but the sociological theories as well as seeing what it takes to GET IN TO the straight male mind (your audience) was definitely interesting. Being a queer-identified bi-woman I can often relate to straight men (I have had a girlfriend with really bad PMS, I really really get that kind of thing!), but really really REALLY not get where they're coming from, so it's been interesting to me from an anthropological/cross-cultural perspective. I also really appreciate your appeal for the end of mysogyny on the basis of take some damn responsibility for your own sexual appeal. I most sincerely thank you for that.

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

Please forgive the MANY gross over-generalizations; my physical audience was a group of approximately one hundred men, aged 20-50, and I knew that if I were to have taken enough time to ensure adequate balance in my assessments, I would not be able to maintain the tempo necessary to remain engaging.

Oh yes -- I already assumed it was a room full of straight men and that sometimes you have to generalize in order to teach. Forgiveness granted with ease!

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

As for the safety of semen facials, I am dedicated to a regimen of condom-use and aggressive hygiene, and am tested for a broad spectrum of STIs monthly, (for professional reasons, via AIM Healthcare - Home) thereby ensuring there is NO potential for transmission of anything.

As a healthcare worker, I am always grateful to hear than anyone is devoted to condoms and being tested for anything regularly, and once a month is just awesome! Thank you for the link, I look forward to looking more closely at that. Upon a quick look, and your comment about being tested for "professional reasons," I'm wondering - do you identify as a sex worker? I've only heard of you for a few days, so please forgive my forray into the possibly blindingly obvious. What I've seen of you, it appears that you fall more into the categories of sex educator and motivational speaker. Is it more that you're involved with sex workers? Because that I would understand.

But still, facials, for me, fall into the cateogory of YKINMK. (For the rest of the forum, that's Your Kink is NOT My Kink.) Nothing morally wrong with it. Just hits my ick button on a fundamental level. It's the only thing I'm finding really challenging about listening to an otherwise really interesting program.

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

Good point - I hope more people will grab the free videos as a result of yours, Steve's & Erin's supportive comments!

It's not just you -- I observed something similar about Steve & Erin's podcast. That they so clearly sounded in-sync and just light of spirit that listening to that sounded far, far less worrisome than the initial post on the topic of poly. (And while I supported them, loudly and gleefully, from the get go, I still had some minor concerns until hearing them talk about it. I have, after all, seen people do poly very very badly. Not everyone is cut out for it.) Heck, my own writing style looks far more formal, most of the time, than my speaking style. I do use a lot of big words in real life -- but I also use muppet voices and cartoon-like sound effects. Text is only a part of the story and it's always good to be reminded of that.

[jaamkie]

Originally Posted by HealingMaven

As a healthcare worker, I am always grateful to hear than anyone is devoted to condoms and being tested for anything regularly, and once a month is just awesome! Thank you for the link, I look forward to looking more closely at that. Upon a quick look, and your comment about being tested for "professional reasons," I'm wondering - do you identify as a sex worker? I've only heard of you for a few days, so please forgive my forray into the possibly blindingly obvious. What I've seen of you, it appears that you fall more into the categories of sex educator and motivational speaker. Is it more that you're involved with sex workers? Because that I would understand.

probably none of my business and probably the man himself will answer your question, but my assumption was that "professional reasons" are simply that it would totally undermine his message of the health of non-monogamous relationships if it became public that he'd got an STD, and certainly any guy that gives a lover an STD out of carelessness/dishonesty would deserve all women's scorn, not their continued support and affection. Presumably part of his success at selling his coaching to men is based on his own success with women- if he has a string of angry lovers after him spreading rumors, or had to refrain from sex for awhile because of an infection, I'm sure it wouldn't help his business. Plus if he's genuine in what he's selling, being anything less than careful and responsible would be acting incongruent wth his message of respectfully honestly healthily enjoying many sex partners.

[HealingMaven]

Originally Posted by jaamkie

probably none of my business and probably the man himself will answer your question, but my assumption was that "professional reasons" are simply that it would totally undermine his message of the health of non-monogamous relationships if it became public that he'd got an STD, and certainly any guy that gives a lover an STD out of carelessness/dishonesty would deserve all women's scorn, not their continued support and affection. Presumably part of his success at selling his coaching to men is based on his own success with women- if he has a string of angry lovers after him spreading rumors, or had to refrain from sex for awhile because of an infection, I'm sure it wouldn't help his business. Plus if he's genuine in what he's selling, being anything less than careful and responsible would be acting incongruent wth his message of respectfully honestly healthily enjoying many sex partners.

Oh! Queen of the Blindingly Obvious (me) strikes again!!

[cylon]

Wow look who showed up to the relationship forum! A belated welcome to you Johnny, I've talked to you on another site under a different name.

I think your take on relationships, especially from a male perspective, is a positive change for this section of the forum (I see you've been a member for quite some time, but this is the first time I've seen you here lol).

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by HealingMaven

Upon a quick look, and your comment about being tested for "professional reasons," I'm wondering - do you identify as a sex worker? ...it appears that you fall more into the categories of sex educator and motivational speaker. Is it more that you're involved with sex workers? Because that I would understand.

Originally Posted by Jaamkie

...It would totally undermine his message of the health of non-monogamous relationships if it became public that he'd got an STD, and certainly any guy that gives a lover an STD out of carelessness/dishonesty would deserve all women's scorn, not their continued support and affection. Presumably part of his success at selling his coaching to men is based on his own success with women- if he has a string of angry lovers after him spreading rumors, or had to refrain from sex for awhile because of an infection, I'm sure it wouldn't help his business. Plus if he's genuine in what he's selling, being anything less than careful and responsible would be acting incongruently with his message of respectfully honestly healthily enjoying many sex partners.

Both Jaamkie's and your own observations are correct and insightful!

While I am not formally a 'sex worker', my Primary partner, Violet (photos beneath) with whom I share a home, (and who routinely joins me on speaking tours, addressing the audience and providing invaluable female insights) is a professional mainstream Porn Star.


Violet Marcell

(I have performed in front of the camera, and still might occasionally, but that's most-frequently as a favor to the director, or by request of the female Talent; I've never considered myself a professional sex worker, despite being paid for ad hoc scenes)

Jaamkie is also correct in that my congruency requires both sexual and social maturity, and that any failure to act responsibly would undermine completely my message.


Violet Marcell, myself, and Angie Savage

Originally Posted by HealingMaven

But still, facials, for me, fall into the cateogory of YKINMK. (For the rest of the forum, that's Your Kink is NOT My Kink.) Nothing morally wrong with it. Just hits my ick button on a fundamental level. It's the only thing I'm finding really challenging about listening to an otherwise really interesting program.

Completely understood, and acknowledged!

I appreciate your ability to get past your initial distaste and continue through the material - I imagine I must lose some of my audience unintentionally because of my cavalier honesty. (When I release an edited-for-mass-market version, I will drop such references!)

My near 20 year long professional career as a management consultant, frequently in the Adult Entertainment arena, has brought into sharp relief the hallmark of that industry: Different Strokes for Different Folks!

You can't fake a fetish - and you generally can't suppress one either - so coming to comfort with your own kinks is critical to personal satisfaction.

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[HealingMaven]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

Both Jaamkie's and your own observations are correct and insightful!

While I am not formally a 'sex worker', my Primary partner, Violet (photos beneath) with whom I share a home, (and who routinely joins me on speaking tours, addressing the audience and providing invaluable female insights) is a professional mainstream Porn Star.

*nods* Well, that officially proves that you practice what you preach. Kudos. Many many many men would have trouble with that being their partner's career.

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

Completely understood, and acknowledged!

I appreciate your ability to get past your initial distaste and continue through the material - I imagine I must lose some of my audience unintentionally because of my cavalier honesty. (When I release an edited-for-mass-market version, I will drop such references!)

Hey, most valuable lessons come with a bit of discomfort. And I'm glad I actually provided valuable feedback, not just random kvetching. Just keep in mind, the turn-off is from the female perspective (and I do know women far kinkier than I who wouldn't have a problem with it) and that I think your audience is primarily male, so I'm not sure how much value my perspective actually has. OTOH, the reference that bug me might well be problematic to your typical Sensitive New Age Guy as well, who is probably part of your target market.

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

My near 20 year long professional career as a management consultant, frequently in the Adult Entertainment arena, has brought into sharp relief the hallmark of that industry: Different Strokes for Different Folks!

*laugh* I can't tell you how many puns I want to make here. *grin* If only I'd chosen an online handle less connected to my professional online presence. Ah well.

It's a genuine pleasure to meet you Johnny. I was wondering, you mentioned in the videos that you were doing some research on same sex interactions -- was the video recorded long enough ago that you've any progress on this? (I'm a girl who likes girls, so I'm curious if you have anything there.)

I do have one major correction to something you said in the videos - not all girls are bi- from the waist up. Trust me on this. I went to Vassar at a time when female bisexuality was much more the norm than female heterosexuality, to a degree because the ratio of het women to het men was something like 4:1 or greater. And I knew a number of women who bemoaned their lack of bisexuality because it was so hard to find a guy. They tried. Trust me. I was occasionally the experimentee. But many girls really are straight. Poor things. (KIDDING!! Straight ladies please don't throw things at me!)

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by HealingMaven

*nods* Well, that officially proves that you practice what you preach. Kudos. Many many many men would have trouble with that being their partner's career.

Thanks for that! Please check out this thread, which no-one has yet commented on, for some reason? (Maybe it's so comprehensive that it requires no criticism?) My 'Two Rules' to happy, comfortable non-exclusive relationships

Originally Posted by HealingMaven

It's a genuine pleasure to meet you Johnny. I was wondering, you mentioned in the videos that you were doing some research on same sex interactions -- was the video recorded long enough ago that you've any progress on this? (I'm a girl who likes girls, so I'm curious if you have anything there.)

Indeed, I have done very significant research into this, and I look forward to sharing some of it with you offline, while I'm codifying defensible conclusions prior to 'going public' with my analysis. I'll follow up with you via PM

Originally Posted by HealingMaven

I do have one major correction to something you said in the videos - not all girls are bi- from the waist up. Trust me....

Harumph - such language! And from an otherwise so-respectful woman!

(Since you've used terms like 'maven' and 'kvetch' I presume you must know that 'Trust me' is Yiddish for 'Screw You!' as well? )

Where I say 'Bi from the waist-up' I mean that OVERWHELMINGLY women will play with other girls lightly, from holding-hands and cuddling to open-mouth kissing, and fondling boobies, etc - even when they are not comfortable with doing these things when GUYS are not around. I have been a 'tour guide' for bisexual experimentation for so many different women, and have been in an almost-unique position to explore this phenomenon (that many women won't admit to same-sex curiosity unless they are in the presence of a non-judgmental male) but again, I'd like to discuss these observations offline, for now!

Johnny Soporno
mailto:JohnnySoporno@hotmail.com

[HealingMaven]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

Thanks for that! Please check out this thread, which no-one has yet commented on, for some reason? (Maybe it's so comprehensive that it requires no criticism?) My 'Two Rules' to happy, comfortable non-exclusive relationships

Will do. Wouldn't that be a dream? Something so complete that it's above criticism? *laughter*

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

Indeed, I have done very significant research into this, and I look forward to sharing some of it with you offline, while I'm codifying defensible conclusions prior to 'going public' with my analysis. I'll follow up with you via PM

Awesome! I look forward to that!

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

Harumph - such language! And from an otherwise so-respectful woman!

(Since you've used terms like 'maven' and 'kvetch' I presume you must know that 'Trust me' is Yiddish for 'Screw You!' as well? )

*laughter* I did forget about that. It must be a slightly different dialect from the one I use.

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

Where I say 'Bi from the waist-up' I mean that OVERWHELMINGLY women will play with other girls lightly, from holding-hands and cuddling to open-mouth kissing, and fondling boobies, etc - even when they are not comfortable with doing these things when GUYS are not around. I have been a 'tour guide' for bisexual experimentation for so many different women, and have been in an almost-unique position to explore this phenomenon

Hmm..... I'm still a little skeptical about it. Certainly many women are much much more comfortable cuddling and hand-holding and being generally affectionate with other women than men are about men. I think that's mostly culturally based, though I haven't got any studies to back it up. I also think your sample of "all women" is self-selecting -- that anyone interested in getting involved with you is already a bit flexible (as opposed to rigidly straight) and open-minded.

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

(that many women won't admit to same-sex curiosity unless they are in the presence of a non-judgmental male) but again, I'd like to discuss these observations offline, for now!

*nods* You do have a point there -- the presence of a non-judgemental male removes the appearance of homosexuality from the behaviour. It becomes more heteroflexible because they're in the presence of a male.

As to anything else, by all means, contact me offline, I dropped you a PM with my email.

[Susie]

This sort of thing never worked for me in my freewheeling days (now in a monogamous relationship) because usually if I hadn't slept with a guy, it was because I simply wasn't attracted to him. So if he was just a friend and we had never dated, there was a reason! Whenever I had "friends" try to break out of that mold with me it was never successful. But maybe that's something peculiar to me because I always preferred men with mystery when it came to meaningless flings, and good friends just didn't have that, obviously.

[BettyBoo]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

FYI Johnny posted this here partly as an answer to a question that I asked him. He and his girlfriend Violet were hanging out at our house for a few hours this afternoon. The four of us had a delightful conversation about relationships, polyamory, and more.

He and Violet are an amazing couple with a successful open relationship.

Seems like Steve wanted to open polyamory season with Violet. hahaha