Converting Girl Friends into 'Girlfriends'

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by BettyBoo

Seems like Steve wanted to open polyamory season with Violet. hahaha

Sorry to burst your bubble, but our orgy was mental, not physical.

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Sorry to burst your bubble, but our orgy was mental, not physical.

True!
Nevertheless, it was immensely satisfying!



Although I believe there was an awful lot of positive emotional connection as well!

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[BeyondtheWrap]

Love this! Friends with benefits is exactly my ideal setup! True, I have been a KJ for a while, but my happiest times have been when I had a FB, whereas my most distressing times have been when I was in a relationship.

Is this your whole method, Johnny? Or is it one of many? I would presume a lot of discretion is necessary to do stuff like this. Exactly how is it done? Do you make sure you and your female friend are alone together before you talk about this? Do you set aside a time to have a conversation of this sort? Or does the topic just seem to come up naturally? Do you talk to her about this in a single sitting, do you spread it out over longer period of time, or do you come back to this topic on future occasions?

That's a lot of question marks. I'm just asking how.

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by BeyondtheWrap

Love this! Friends with benefits is exactly my ideal setup! True, I have been a KJ for a while, but my happiest times have been when I had a FB, whereas my most distressing times have been when I was in a relationship.

I can appreciate that Not everyone can be comfortable in sexual exclusive relationships, and for those among us who have overwhelming needs beyond those which can be served by any single partner, 'relationships' in the traditional, monogamistic sense are untenable.

Originally Posted by BeyondtheWrap

Is this your whole method, Johnny? Or is it one of many?

While what I've detailed in the Original Post is written to facilitate transitioning an existing, ongoing long-term friendship into one which includes the potential for a sexual component, everything I write fundamentally begins with the essentials from here: The 'Inner Game' of Life

As far as relationship-management goes, I have begun another thread, but it's critical to read both the TWO Original Posts, the first-and-second in the thread, before commenting or asking for clarification! That thread is here:
My 'Two Rules' to happy, comfortable non-exclusive relationships

Since my lifestyle philosophy stems from these concepts, there is never any surreptitious or deceptive posturing - I am completely unabashed, and unashamed of my frame, and I present it clearly and as simply as possible, RIGHT UP FRONT - certainly before deciding to take someone home to bed!

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[Steve007]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

Thanks for the feedback, presuming you're using the word 'interesting' in the positive sense, rather than in the "What did you think of her shoes?" "They were interesting" sense!



Please forgive the MANY gross over-generalizations; my physical audience was a group of approximately one hundred men, aged 20-50, and I knew that if I were to have taken enough time to ensure adequate balance in my assessments, I would not be able to maintain the tempo necessary to remain engaging.

As for the safety of semen facials, I am dedicated to a regimen of condom-use and aggressive hygiene, and am tested for a broad spectrum of STIs monthly, (for professional reasons, via AIM Healthcare - Home) thereby ensuring there is NO potential for transmission of anything.

But you're definitely correct, from a random stranger, risking sperm entering your body through your eye is unwise!



Good point - I hope more people will grab the free videos as a result of yours, Steve's & Erin's supportive comments!

Johnny Soporno
'Worthy Playboy'(tm) Johnny Soporno presents: Introduction to Seductive Reasoning 101 - un-edited, live recording

Hey good to see you here Johnny, I must have seen this article about 10+ times in 4 different forums, and once you sent me on MSN but it's always a pleasure to read.

I was personaly there at that seminar, was it the one you did at Toronto?

[RegisteredUser]

Here's my question for the OP or anyone else who can answer: what about guys for whom the sex is just part of what they want? What they also want is to hear the woman say "I love you", call him her boyfriend. He's fascinated by her and wants to know every little thing about her, and no matter what he finds out about her he still feels the same about her, as long at it has nothing to do with her not being loyal to him. I know, this is the typical AFC mindset of the guy who puts a woman on a pedestal and gets told "sorry I don't feel that way about you."

But what can a guy do if he wants more than to just have sex with her? Is he just blinded by the initial warm fuzzy infatuation he feels for her, and if he ever did have a relationship with her those feelings would fade? Or is this the kind of guy that other guys would call a name that is slang for vagina (trying not to offend the ladies here lol)?

As I've said in another thread I'm 35 and have lived a life driven by fear rather than desire as Dennis Waitley puts it. As a result I think most high school kids have more life experience than me. This also includes my experience with women. In short, I'm a mess lol So please try to get past how pathetic it is for a 35 year old guy to be asking these questions, if you could lol Thanks.

[Angela Leeds]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Also known as "friends with benefits".

Not exactly a new concept..

True. And when done with consciousness, certainly viable.

Works both ways, as there are men on the planet who only engage sexually with prospective significant others...although from all the "game talk" on the forum, one would think they don't exist, lol. Women don't have exclusive rights to that perspective.

Edit to add: Johnny, you did a great job explaining the dynamic.

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by Steve007

Hey good to see you here Johnny, I must have seen this article about 10+ times in 4 different forums, and once you sent me on MSN but it's always a pleasure to read.

Introduction to Seductive Reasoning 101

Originally Posted by Steve007

I was personally there at that seminar, was it the one you did at Toronto?

Actually, the first four hour-long segments were from the seminar you attended in January of '07; the following two segments were shot at another seminar I held in October of that same year, also in Toronto.

I am FINALLY preparing a (slightly) edited version of this freely-available 'Intro' seminar, designed for viewing on TVs via DVDs. It will be 'slightly censored' to remove references to the most contentious elements, so that anyone should feel comfortable watching it with, (or handing it to), their parents, children, or whomever.

I have spent the last year on tour throughout Europe and the US, conducting my follow-up seminar "Applied Seductive Reasoning - 201", which I am currently attempting to make into DVDs as well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGEvZzysPyw <- click here for a 4 min segment on Violet's and my tour, courtesy of TVBrussels evening news

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by RegisteredUser

What about guys for whom the sex is just part of what they want? What they also want is to hear the woman say "I love you", call him her boyfriend.

This model is not intended for developing exclusive & over-riding romantic relationships from existing platonic ones - it is for establishing powerful and enduring friendships in which recreational sex is an option which is not seen as jeopardizing the friendship.

If what you're after is a Boyfriend/Girlfriend dynamic, than this is explicitly not for you. Furthermore, you would be well-advised NOT to attempt any method for converting "a friend" into "Your Girlfriend", as it is enormously likely to break at least one heart (yours!) and could do more damage than that!

Originally Posted by RegisteredUser

But what can a guy do if he wants more than to just have sex with her? Is he just blinded by the initial warm fuzzy infatuation he feels for her, and if he ever did have a relationship with her those feelings would fade?

Infatuation is chemically-enhanced romance (ie, your hormones "drug" your mind, and make the object of your infatuation seem irresistible & flawless in your eyes) which tends to fade rapidly once a genuine relationship begins in its throes.
Normally, between a few days and eighteen months is the expected duration of infatuation, after which you will begin to see your 'beloved' without the rose-coloured lenses, faults-and-all - and she might just lose all her appeal to you - OR she might actually be ideally appropriate for you!

But the sad fact is that neither of those options is likely - what is likely is that you'll begin to find her more and more annoying and less and less attractive, until your relationship becomes more of a chore than a joy, and ultimately endures for a further six+ months before you both finally decide it's run its course, and should be abandoned.

Originally Posted by RegisteredUser

In short, I'm a mess lol So please try to get past how pathetic it is for a 35 year old guy to be asking these questions, if you could lol Thanks.

Knowing and admitting to your problem is the most-critical step in resolving it! - FEEL NO SHAME in searching for guidance, particularly here, in a forum dedicated to self-improvement and personal satisfaction... and keep asking great questions!

Personally, I recommend checking out the seminar videos I'm sharing in my signature... There's an awful lot there which might serve you well!

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[RegisteredUser]

I appreciate the response. I'm just curious because I've watched some of the seminar at your website. Do you think it's only men who are less enlightened, evolved, whatever word you want to use, who even want the girlfriend-boyfriend exclusive relationship to begin with? I have read people say (not on this board) "get some experience with women first before you ask questions like this." So maybe there's only so much I could ever understand now before I get some experience.

[James81]

Therefore most women won't chance beginning a sexual relationship where there is currently a solid friendship.
THEREFORE IT IS ESSENTIAL that the girl understands she absolutely won't lose your friendship either way, and that
YOU ARE OFFERING HER SOMETHING - NOT ASKING FOR ANYTHING!

Let me get this straight...these are the options you are offering her:

1. You can have sex with me, and we can remain friends.
2. You can choose NOT to have sex with me, and we can still remain friends.

Why on God's green earth would an attractive woman, who has access to any number of guys at any moment that she could have sex with, choose to risk bringing issues into her friendship with you by having sex with you?

Let's get real here...if you are friends with a woman that you want to sleep with, then you need to make the decision within yourself that you are going to put it on the line. Risk something. Don't use your friendship as leverage to get her to sleep with you, but realize that if you are wanting to sleep with your "friend" then you probably don't see her as just a friend, and being "friends" with the women you want to sleep with is only taxing of YOUR time (a waste of time if you ask me) and YOUR emotional health (women tend to "vent" to their "friends").

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by James81

Let me get this straight...these are the options you are offering her:

1. You can have sex with me, and we can remain friends.
2. You can choose NOT to have sex with me, and we can still remain friends.

Heh - I can see how you might distill it down to just that, if you were convinced that women didn't enjoy recreational sex!

The offer is actually nested in the follow-up to expressing your openness to, and appreciation of, her right to decide when and with whom she has sexual experiences. In other words, your offer is:

I accept you for who you are, a treasured friend, and I am unwilling to sacrifice the relationship we have, because it is healthy, worthwhile, and appropriate. That said, I have no desire to have you as 'my property', or to interfere with your pursuit of romantic satisfactions, so I would not label you as "MY Girlfriend", just as you wouldn't want me to be "Your Boyfriend".

We ARE eachothers' "Friends", and IF you would like to have playful sex with someone who will continue always to be here for you, and who will appreciate, accept, and attend you WITHOUT JUDGING YOU! then I'd be delighted to be that someone - or ONE of those 'someones', as I will never make a claim to having exclusive access.

Originally Posted by James81

Why on God's green earth would an attractive woman, who has access to any number of guys at any moment that she could have sex with, choose to risk bringing issues into her friendship with you by having sex with you?

[Sigh]

First of all, you are operating from a VERY faulty premise.

Women, regardless of how attractive they may be, DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO 'ANY NUMBER OF GUYS' whom they are ATTRACTED TO, AND ENJOY SUFFICIENTLY simply to select one, and have sex with him.

Women SHOULD, certainly - but they don't; mostly because they KNOW that they will live to regret it if they DO, because society will brand them negatively and deride them publicly; the men they connect with with alter their opinions of the woman afterwards, (particularly if she doesn't wish a repeat encounter); and they have been raised to believe that doing so would prove them 'unclean' and 'unworthy' and demonstrate that she hasn't any self-respect.

When you explicitly and sincerely express to a woman FRIEND that she WILL NOT BE JUDGED, CONDEMNED, NOR ABANDONED regardless of her decision as to whether or not to engage in recreational sex with you, and that the only way your relationship might change is that NOW you'd have gotten past the 'physical intimacy barrier' and can be still more open and connected than before. Oh, and that you can also both get laid when you both want to, if you wish, without risk.

Originally Posted by James81

Let's get real here...if you are friends with a woman that you want to sleep with, then you need to make the decision within yourself that you are going to put it on the line. Risk something. Don't use your friendship as leverage to get her to sleep with you, but realize that if you are wanting to sleep with your "friend" then you probably don't see her as just a friend, and being "friends" with the women you want to sleep with is only taxing of YOUR time (a waste of time if you ask me) and YOUR emotional health (women tend to "vent" to their "friends").

Just because YOU cannot have a friendship with a woman you find sexually attractive does not imply that other, more mature men will have the same limitation.

Overwhelmingly, I HAVE slept with most of my female friends, and still might on occasion, with any of them. This is because OUR FRIENDSHIP IS GENUINE, and doesn't require us to compartmentalize-away our sexuality in order to relate. We can accept one another as sexual creatures, without feeling that 'having sex' implies 'being boyfriend & girlfriend', nor assigning any sense of possessiveness of jealousy to one another.

As for my girlfriends venting to me about their stresses and concerns, trials and tribulations, OF COURSE THEY DO, and they are welcome to - we're FRIENDS, remember? - and frequently they will ask me for advice on how to get with some guy they have a crush on at work, while lying in my arms in bed, or equivalent.

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[James81]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

Heh - I can see how you might distill it down to just that, if you were convinced that women didn't enjoy recreational sex!

The offer is actually nested in the follow-up to expressing your openness to, and appreciation of, her right to decide when and with whom she has sexual experiences. In other words, your offer is:

I accept you for who you are, a treasured friend, and I am unwilling to sacrifice the relationship we have, because it is healthy, worthwhile, and appropriate. That said, I have no desire to have you as 'my property', or to interfere with your pursuit of romantic satisfactions, so I would not label you as "MY Girlfriend", just as you wouldn't want me to be "Your Boyfriend".

We ARE eachothers' "Friends", and IF you would like to have playful sex with someone who will continue always to be here for you, and who will appreciate, accept, and attend you WITHOUT JUDGING YOU! then I'd be delighted to be that someone - or ONE of those 'someones', as I will never make a claim to having exclusive access.



[Sigh]

First of all, you are operating from a VERY faulty premise.

Women, regardless of how attractive they may be, DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO 'ANY NUMBER OF GUYS' whom they are ATTRACTED TO, AND ENJOY SUFFICIENTLY simply to select one, and have sex with him.

Women SHOULD, certainly - but they don't; mostly because they KNOW that they will live to regret it if they DO, because society will brand them negatively and deride them publicly; the men they connect with with alter their opinions of the woman afterwards, (particularly if she doesn't wish a repeat encounter); and they have been raised to believe that doing so would prove them 'unclean' and 'unworthy' and demonstrate that she hasn't any self-respect.

When you explicitly and sincerely express to a woman FRIEND that she WILL NOT BE JUDGED, CONDEMNED, NOR ABANDONED regardless of her decision as to whether or not to engage in recreational sex with you, and that the only way your relationship might change is that NOW you'd have gotten past the 'physical intimacy barrier' and can be still more open and connected than before. Oh, and that you can also both get laid when you both want to, if you wish, without risk.



Just because YOU cannot have a friendship with a woman you find sexually attractive does not imply that other, more mature men will have the same limitation.

Overwhelmingly, I HAVE slept with most of my female friends, and still might on occasion, with any of them. This is because OUR FRIENDSHIP IS GENUINE, and doesn't require us to compartmentalize-away our sexuality in order to relate. We can accept one another as sexual creatures, without feeling that 'having sex' implies 'being boyfriend & girlfriend', nor assigning any sense of possessiveness of jealousy to one another.

As for my girlfriends venting to me about their stresses and concerns, trials and tribulations, OF COURSE THEY DO, and they are welcome to - we're FRIENDS, remember? - and frequently they will ask me for advice on how to get with some guy they have a crush on at work, while lying in my arms in bed, or equivalent.

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

Sorry man, you are logically trying to compartmentalize woman, and woman are not rooted in logic so much as they are rooted in emotion.

They don't make logical deductions for their actions. They tend to back rationalize their behavior rather than think of the consequences beforehand. In the realm of dealing with women, the man who can make her feel the broadest range of emotions will be the man she is most attracted to.

If you are meeting with success with your method, then it's because you are exhibiting other behaviors that those women find attractive. You can't broadstroke your advice based off of this one little trick, because there's way more to it than that.

In fact, it's kind of hard to broadstroke dating/sex advice anyway, and usually when I see someone doing it, I immediately write them off as a keyboard jockey or a fraud. Nothing personal, just stating my observations.

Another thing to think about.....there are TWO types of friends when it comes to women. There's the "friends with whom she MAY sleep with if the right situation and circumstances allowed it" and there are the "completely and totally friendzoned guys that she can never be attracted to." Your advice might fall in line with the first one, but it gives false hope to the second one (where more guys actually ARE whether they realize it or not).

The real truth behind it is this...be who you are. Don't choose to be friends with a woman that you find yourself desiring to sleep with. If you want to sleep with her, then escalate it toward a sexual relationship, NOT a friendship. I don't know about you, but when I choose to be friends with a girl, I immediately remove the idea of having sex with her from my mind. She becomes on of those people with whom I seek friendship. When I want to have sex with a woman, I escalate the situation towards a sexual relationship and take the risk like a man.

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by James81

Sorry man, you are logically trying to compartmentalize woman, and woman are not rooted in logic so much as they are rooted in emotion.

Humans are NOT rooted in logic, regardless of their gender. (Logic is an artifact of language, fewer than three thousand years old)

While men tend to be RAISED to control or ignore their emotions, women are generally not, which explains the phenomenon you are trying to express.

Originally Posted by James81

If you are meeting with success with your method, then it's because you are exhibiting other behaviors that those women find attractive. You can't broadstroke your advice based off of this one little trick, because there's way more to it than that.

There is no trick. This works because it empowers the woman to make up her own mind, with the confidence that she will not be exposed to harsh and public criticism and condemnation for opting to enjoy her sexuality outside of a 'conventional' relationship.

This will work for EVERYONE, EVERYTIME, if they employ it sincerely, without outcome dependence.

Originally Posted by James81

In fact, it's kind of hard to broadstroke dating/sex advice anyway, and usually when I see someone doing it, I immediately write them off as a keyboard jockey or a fraud. Nothing personal, just stating my observations.

I couldn't agree with you more, for the most part. That said, I'm not offering any dating advice at all in this thread, nor sex advice, neither.

Originally Posted by James81

Another thing to think about.....there are TWO types of friends when it comes to women. There's the "friends with whom she MAY sleep with if the right situation and circumstances allowed it" and there are the "completely and totally friendzoned guys that she can never be attracted to." Your advice might fall in line with the first one, but it gives false hope to the second one (where more guys actually ARE whether they realize it or not).

There is no such thing as 'The Friendzone' unless YOU PUT YOURSELF THERE. It ONLY exists in the mind of the person who believes they have been relegated to it.

It is a severely limiting belief, an existential handicap which prevents success from even being possible for those who choose to believe it.

Originally Posted by James81

The real truth behind it is this...be who you are.

Now THAT is good advice!

Originally Posted by James81

Don't choose to be friends with a woman that you find yourself desiring to sleep with.

THAT, alternatively, is social suicide. If I enjoy a woman enough to be her FRIEND, them I'm virtually certainly going to be attracted enough to her to want to sleep with her. (There are certainly physical 'types' which I am less attracted to, or even repelled by, but it would be dishonest to suggest that I couldn't imagine finding them sexually attractive if the emotional/sensual connection was right)

Originally Posted by James81

If you want to sleep with her, then escalate it toward a sexual relationship, NOT a friendship.

WHY? Why should ANYONE limit themselves to ONLY having sexual pleasure with someone in an established 'sexual relationship'?
Consider this for a while before you try to answer it, please.

Then, please return to the ORIGINAL POST, and see that this is NOT meant to be a method for turning women whom you've found attractive, but when you couldn't manage to get them to consider you as 'boyfriend material', you relegated yourself to the 'Friendzone' to await her eventual notice...

This is for GENUINE, LEGITIMATE, ENDURING FRIENDSHIPS which established themselves organically.

Originally Posted by James81

I don't know about you, but when I choose to be friends with a girl, I immediately remove the idea of having sex with her from my mind. She becomes on of those people with whom I seek friendship.

In other words, you assert that you can only have male or neuter friends.

Instead of allowing gender to be an issue, I determine who my friends are through mutual discovery, psychological and spiritual compatibility, and philosophical harmony, resulting in our having shared values. I normally do not have sex with anyone who would not qualify to be my friend!
However, whether or not we ever DO have sex is insignificant, in the larger scheme of things. "I am open to all outcomes, and attached to none", as my dear friend Zan often says, and is equally true for me.

Originally Posted by James81

When I want to have sex with a woman, I escalate the situation towards a sexual relationship and take the risk like a man.

Have you considered that what you are ACTUALLY SAYING IS:
"When I meet an attractive woman, I immediately attempt to begin a sexual relationship with her, because that is the ONLY OPTION I can imagine.
I can not be her FRIEND, because my craving for sex with her will override my abilities to reason and relate (since, as a man, I am driven by logic ) and it will just cause me suffer."

Please take a few moments and consider that... and then consider that IF YOU DON'T INSIST ON 'OWNING' THAT WOMAN (ie, not formally acknowledging a social contract of sexual exclusivity) then you COULD be her friend, on a long-term and enduring basis, AND POTENTIALLY ALSO HAVE SEX WITH HER, when it suited you both.

That is the essence of my message - and it works very well for everyone who tries it, PRESUMING THEY DON'T LET THEIR EGOS INTERFERE.

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[Dan.Linehan]

I'm going to have to go with Johnny Soporno here.

Security is a primary need. A person who can offer safety, stability and security in a fun, "friends with benefits" type scenario, can be very, very attractive.

[Yynatago]

Originally Posted by James81

If you are meeting with success with your method, then it's because you are exhibiting other behaviors that those women find attractive.

Well... Duh!

Originally Posted by James81

The real truth behind it is this...be who you are. Don't choose to be friends with a woman that you find yourself desiring to sleep with. If you want to sleep with her, then escalate it toward a sexual relationship, NOT a friendship. I don't know about you, but when I choose to be friends with a girl, I immediately remove the idea of having sex with her from my mind. She becomes on of those people with whom I seek friendship. When I want to have sex with a woman, I escalate the situation towards a sexual relationship and take the risk like a man.

This a very common choice people make, but its not a choice you have to make. Have you ever, or do you know some who has had sex with a friend, and still have great friendship? I have, and that's why I see holes in what you just wrote, It just doesn't align with what I've experienced.

However, I see a very valid message. If you reworded it to:

Originally Posted by Yynatago

The real truth behind it is this...be who you are. Don't pretend to just be friends with a woman that you find yourself desiring to sleep with. If you just want to sleep with her, then escalate it toward a sexual relationship, NOT a friendship...

This I can agree with, because the message is more about being congruent with your intention

As a side note, If you want to sleep with a women, and be friends too, its easier to do the sleeping first, then build the friendship later

Regards,
Yynatago

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

I'm going to have to go with Johnny Soporno here.

Security is a primary need. A person who can offer safety, stability and security in a fun, "friends with benefits" type scenario, can be very, very attractive.

Agreed. I had a FWB situation years ago, and it was perfect for where I was and what I wanted at the time.

James81 - You do not know women as well as you think you do.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

then you COULD be her friend, on a long-term and enduring basis, AND POTENTIALLY ALSO HAVE SEX WITH HER, when it suited you both.

That's called a "sexual relationship."

[James81]

Originally Posted by carenkh

Agreed. I had a FWB situation years ago, and it was perfect for where I was and what I wanted at the time.

James81 - You do not know women as well as you think you do.

Of course I don't, and I don't pretend to either. I know enough, though, to spot unrealistic advice when I see it.

[ilrein]

Originally Posted by James81

Of course I don't, and I don't pretend to either. I know enough, though, to spot unrealistic advice when I see it.

There is simply no way to contradict Johnny on sexual philosophy. You can try though!

John, some varying questions if you please:

At what point in your life did you, pardon the limiting terms, switch to polyamory? I recall you mentioned your last monogamous relationship was in '89. What happened here?

Also for adding a sexual element to a friendship, does this concept fall short for younger people? I ask because, I'm quite young, and something like this takes definite maturity to embrace, that I'd like to think I possess =D

[Pequod]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

you would be well-advised NOT to attempt any method for converting "a friend" into "Your Girlfriend", as it is enormously likely to break at least one heart (yours!) and could do more damage than that!

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

There is no such thing as 'The Friendzone' unless YOU PUT YOURSELF THERE. It ONLY exists in the mind of the person who believes they have been relegated to it.

It is a severely limiting belief, an existential handicap which prevents success from even being possible for those who choose to believe it.

Hello Johnny, are you not contradicting yourself in these two quotes? First you say that one cannot convert a friendship into more, and then you say the 'friendzone' doesn't exist.

I'm wondering, is it in your opinion possible to be friends with a woman first, and add sex in the friendship later? Or can this only work when you make your intentions clear in the very beginning?

P.S. Off course I'm asking because I have a few female friends that I would like to upgrade to friends-with-benefits

[Some Random Loser]

Originally Posted by Pequod

I'm wondering, is it in your opinion possible to be friends with a woman first, and add sex in the friendship later? Or can this only work when you make your intentions clear in the very beginning?

P.S. Off course I'm asking because I have a few female friends that I would like to upgrade to friends-with-benefits

Have you checked out Mr. Soporno's free video series?

Worthy Playboy Institute

I have, and recommend it to all people!

[James81]

Originally Posted by Pequod

Hello Johnny, are you not contradicting yourself in these two quotes? First you say that one cannot convert a friendship into more, and then you say the 'friendzone' doesn't exist.

I'm wondering, is it in your opinion possible to be friends with a woman first, and add sex in the friendship later? Or can this only work when you make your intentions clear in the very beginning?

P.S. Off course I'm asking because I have a few female friends that I would like to upgrade to friends-with-benefits

Trust me, the friendzone is a very real place.

He IS right in the fact that WE put ourselves there, but one you ARE there you're not going to convert it to any more than that without cutting contact for a while.

Get yourself out of that way of thinking....that you have to become her FRIEND first, then add sex. That's going to make you fail more than be a success (that is, assuming you are in a phase where you are struggling with women).

The problem, though, isn't a matter of how to define your relationships with women. The problem is one of self-confidence and denial. A lot of men thing they have to "win" her over, and that's malarky. Let HER win YOU over. YOU be the prize to be won, because you have a rich and full life. If you don't have a rich and full life and aren't happy, then stop going after women and go get a rich, full life full of happiness (easier said than done, I know, but we aren't hear because it's easy).

That's the only real "secret" there is to dating....and it's just common sense.

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by Pequod

Hello Johnny, are you not contradicting yourself in these two quotes? First you say that one cannot convert a friendship into more, and then you say the 'friendzone' doesn't exist.

I'm sorry for the confusion! I NEVER suggested one couldn't convert a friendship into more! In fact, the explicit purpose of this thread was to express not-only that it was possible, but that it was DEAD EASY, if you approached it maturely.

There is no contradiction here

Where I said:
"You would be well-advised NOT to attempt any method for converting "a friend" into "Your Girlfriend", as it is enormously likely to break at least one heart (yours!) and could do more damage than that!"
I was explicitly pointing out the hazard of trying to convert a platonic friend directly into a romantic, exclusive relationship.

THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD, and what I detail in the Original Post, details simple, reliable requirements for "converting a girl friend into "a girlfriend"; but it is NOT intended for converting a girl friend into "YOUR Girlfriend" - in other words, it is NOT designed to convert platonic friendships into exclusive love affairs!

It is for converting platonic friendships into "friends with benefits" relationships.

Originally Posted by Pequod

I'm wondering, is it in your opinion possible to be friends with a woman first, and add sex in the friendship later? Or can this only work when you make your intentions clear in the very beginning?

Please go back and read the OP It is an enabling document, and if the relationships you have with your female friends are legitimate friendships, AND you come to accept the model I've described here, then there is an extremely high likelihood of a very positive result, and effectively no chance for there to be a negative one.

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[James81]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

Please go back and read the OP It is an enabling document, and if the relationships you have with your female friends are legitimate friendships, AND you come to accept the model I've described here, then there is an extremely high likelihood of a very positive result, and effectively no chance for there to be a negative one.

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

I re-read your post today, and I just wanted to let you know that, upon a second reading, I think I understand more what you were saying. I was taking something out of context of the whole post (which I think I get now) and arguing from the wrong frame of reference (I was thinking more along the lines of those guys who are friendzoned).

So, I wanted to apologize and say that I think I get what you are saying now.

I'm still not so sure that this advice can be broadstroked to all guys, because I think in order for this to work you need to have some basic things in order:

1. Have self-confidence
2. Be in the right frame (lighthearted and fun)
3. Have other options available to you

And, let's face it, not everybody who reads this post will have those things in order.

[Pequod]

Originally Posted by Johnny Soporno

Please go back and read the OP It is an enabling document, and if the relationships you have with your female friends are legitimate friendships, AND you come to accept the model I've described here, then there is an extremely high likelihood of a very positive result, and effectively no chance for there to be a negative one.

I reread your OP and I agree, this can work as I consider the friendships legitimate. I suspect it will all depend on how much I can internalize the mindset.

Thanks for the clarification!

[Flowz]

Hey Johnny.. Great to see you here.. Sharing your insights and experiencew as always.. such an inspiration, shining light in what can at times (ands different angles) be a gloomy age.. Much respect..

It was over/around 3 years ago now that I first came across (pardon the pun) this post and your philosophy.. Off i was, implementing, experimenting all of what rang so true to my ears into my own life.. In the beginning it was shocking to see how many people, women especially were locked into/possessed by social conditioning. Witnessing how they would justify - what to me, and any other observant human - was utter nonsense caused me frustration at times, sadness at others.. Nowadays i find it a whole lot easier to empathize with them and offer my perspective subjectively without attachment..

There was one girl, a very good friend who I offered guilt free, nsa sex who has never taken me up on the offer.. Think she may have been upset because of one occassion where we were dry fuc*ing to the point of practically doing the deed.. After months of sexual tension beforehand.. then I pulled the pin, telling her i cant do her.. only because i was so turned on (form the tension) i knew i'd blow immediately & didnt want to put in a bad performance.. She never did treat me the same after this encounter.. Anyone care to point out why this may be I'd be interested to hear your take/s..

Also, Johnny I have offered this to another of my female friends, who has been my friend for a 3+ years now, who also hasn't taken it up, depsite obvious attraction, tension etc.. My belief is that EVENTUALLY said girls WILL come to their senses and see, hear or feel the beauty in it, and a time will come where we will laugh about how silly it was to not do something which feels so right.. (Just read your post on Patience - thought u may link me to it)

Side not; common sentiment I'll here from female friends (especially newly acquired ones) is "I know myself, if we start sleepign together I'll get attached n I don't want to put myself through that pain (knowing they cant 'have" me)" or something along those lines.. telling me they're either possessive or jealousy prone.. two traits i'm not after.. Was wondering if it's ethical for me to continue sexual relations with women in this position.. And/or how you would advise dealing with similar scenarios..

Overall, after trialling out the ideas presented in the OP myself, and it has been my experience that this offer - if honestly proposed with genuine intent on PRESERVING THE FRIENDSHIP FIRST AND FOREMOST - is very ecological for all parties involved.. especially when discussed between two mature, open minded friends..

Blah blah blah.. Rant over..

Respect

Flowz..

[schola]

If you take the implied manipulation out of it, what this thread is really about is finding something genuinely interesting in your female friends instead of being preoccupied with sleeping with them. Sex could become an added benefit but it's not what you're concerned about anymore.

[Johnny Soporno]

Originally Posted by schola

If you take the implied manipulation out of it...

Wow! That's a very telling comment, Schola...

You inferred manipulation where none was implied!

Originally Posted by schola

...What this thread is really about is finding something genuinely interesting in your female friends instead of being preoccupied with sleeping with them.

Um, not to put TOO fine a point on it, but UNLESS YOU HAVE GENUINE INTEREST IN THEM, they aren't your friends.

Please go back to the OP and re-read it.

It explicitly describes entirely guileless and sincerely heartfelt understandings and appreciations, without applying ANY pressure, passive-aggression, or manipulation of any sort. As a matter of fact, if there is ANY persuasion or coercion required, then your relationship is NOT a genuine friendship.

Johnny Soporno
Worthy Playboy

[Erika Awakening]

Yeah, seriously, why on earth would anyone want to have sex with someone they can't have a fun conversation with? It's just silly.