The Perceived Value of Women: A 'Survey'

[Silent Lucidity]

Hello,

Does this story/situation have relevance for any other women (or men) out there?

I have had four serious long-term relationships with marriage potential in my twenties. They are all wonderful men, each with unique challenges. Each relationship was different.

The first man had loyalty issues justified by spiritual views. The second (my 'soul mate') lost his business, became an artist (more power to him) and left while I was way overmedicated suffering from a serious respratory infection, and thus in fear, demanding commitment. The third had loyalty issues which resolved but by that time my initial infatuation had faded. We never really got to 'fall in love'. He and I had the most in common, regarding interests and life-goals. I left him after realizing he was mentally abusive. The fourth is/was an age-gap relationship with a man who is deeply loving, funny, generous, smart, and reflective, but has other priorities, rather than emotional bonds with a partner at this time.

They're all different, right? They were all madly 'in love' with me when we first met. What did I do wrong? At the time, each of these men meant the world to me, they were my only love, destined to be with forever, people I would do anything for.

Finally, in despair, I asked someone "what's my pattern...!" She said something unusual.... she said 'women give themselves to men far, far to quickly'. She talked about courting, in an old fashioned way, to improve the perceived 'value' of the woman in the man's eyes. Both people should really have to work to get to know another, so that they value the bond they share...

...think of youth culture, the current trend of 'hooking up', female depression... think of men and woman in the workplace, skirt v.s. pant-suit... attention getting... wage descrepancy, percieved value...

I started to think about this, and yes, the longer it took, the better I was treated in that relationship. My eharmony guy initiated things a few days after we met in person. We were friends on-line for three months first and he was the only one who ever activly persued marriage, yet he turned out abusive. The age-gap guy, well it was two weeks after we met. His withdrawl started after he realized I was emotionally attached to him, after 4 months of being together. The one who was my 'soul-mate' with three good years together? It took a few months of spending time in person before we were together.

Neurochemically, maybe waiting gets the friendship and oxytocin link going before the sex-crazed dopamine can kick in? lol.

There is the idea that sexual revolution in the 60's took away a woman's power, and devalued the sacred nature of the female energy. I'm talking about a tantric, wiccan, or goddess-like idea of power. However, women are wired with a hormone that is triggered through sex and orgasm, this commitment hormone says 'I want you and only you to be my love and provider forever'. We can't escape the deep emotional attachment that physical intimacy causes. We can't escape giving our love, soul and emotional energy to the man we love but we can delay it's giving so that we are perceived as worth 'trying' for...

This new idea has just shaken my entire world view and I really want to know if other women (and men) have found it to be true. Guys, does wait-time increase a woman's percieved value as a person? Does it change how you view her as potential future wife?

I always thought this was a silly, cultural myth... not now...

All I know is this idea of 'protecting myself' feels deeply right at this point in time. Relationships should be sacred for all people...

What are other opinions about this? Survey anyone?

[Brutha]

Robert Cialdini made clear in his work that scarcity will result in a higher value judgement in all areas of life.
Whether you want to sell a designer chair and say: "It's a limited edition and there are only 100 build world wide.", that increases perceived value.
Human generally value scarce things more.

Most people think that a higher price equals a higher value. A bottle of high priced wine even tastes better than the same wine in a lower priced bottle. It's human nature.

There guys who try to use scarcity princples to increase their perceived value in the eyes of a girl in the Pickup Artist camp and their girls who do the same thing to guys.
It seems to be a technique that effects people.

It's your choice whether or not and in what extend you want to play mind games to increase your perceived value.

You should also be clear that this in only one of many different ways out there to increase perceived value.
Additionally, if you reduce your own ability to communicate authentically (if you had that ability before), because you focus on mind games that will also reduce your perceived value since people want to be around authentic people.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Silent Lucidity

women give themselves to men far, far to quickly

That's most certainly not my experience.

Guys, does wait-time increase a woman's percieved value as a person? Does it change how you view her as potential future wife?

Definitely no.

You can't wait for a relationship to happen. Relationships happen because someone takes action. I've spent way to much time waiting before I understood that.

Nowadays, I'll just skip on getting close to women of the waiting kind. I can understand how you might be unsure if I am what you want (feeling is mutual), but if you're not prepared to at least give it a try, we'll never know, won't we?!

All I know is this idea of 'protecting myself' feels deeply right at this point in time. Relationships should be sacred for all people...

I don't think that elevating relationships to the sacred level is helpful. The world doesn't end when you break one and you're far better off if you're able to step into new ones (romantic or not) without hesitation. What's that saying again...

It's better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all.

So darn true!

[RT Wolf]

Yea, like Brutha, there's an idea coming out from evolutionary psychology that suggests that women wait to increase men's committment to the relationship, making them more likely to stick around, especially to take care of kids that may result. A lot of the things that's traditionally done in a relationship both increases the man's committment and less likely to walk away (sunk cost fallacy) and shows that he can provide, by offering food and by being able to spend money on things that have no "functional" value other than to look pretty.

All of that said, I do not believe that to be a component of conscious relationships. There can be the case of "easily gotten, less valued", however you can choose how much you value something and depending on everyone involved's goals, choosing to value a relationship highly is important, regardless of how much time has been invested. If you need to play games to get the other person to value you highly, and they don't just want to value their relationship highly...wrong person to be in a relationship with. The real test ends up being their actions. If their actions don't tell you they value you and your relationship...then no matter how much they say it, they're not congruent and not good to be in a relationship with.

So...find someone who's genuinely looking to share a part of their life with someone rather than going along becuase they don't like being lonely or because they feel society tells them to be out dating. Find someone conscious.

[Silent Lucidity]

The real issue here is this:

I'm trying to use this pattern analysis to keep my present boyfriend. We used to talk every night when we first met. We connected spiritually, intellectualy, sexually, heart-wise, everything was there. I think it was part-rebound for him, but I just thought we'd get through that.

Now he's out of town every seccond week with work, stopped going to the gym, so he stresses at the slightest thing. This time, he's been out of town for a month and won't be back for another three weeks. We talk two or three times a week on the phone. The last time he said 'I love you' was sometime in early November. I sometimes tell him but there is silence. I don't know whether to keep saying it anyway (authentic, yet pestering) or stop saying it (game playing PUA). Basically the wonderful closeness we had in the summer/fall just isn't there anymore, and I'm devistated. Once, just before Christmas, I asked what's happening with us, he just said he can't deal with it right now. Neither of us has brought it up since. For an emotionally attached woman, this means agony every day, not to know what's going on.

The counsellor said if I want to keep him I absolutly -must- give him space right now. There are complications with his kids, his ex-wife, his job, his dad's health. I'm just last on the list. I'm afraid if I ask him about 'us' too much, it could just drive him away, with no chance of salvaging this.

It's not about mind-games at all, it's about a last-ditch effort to prevent another broken heart, to prevent past events from repeating themselves. Does it make more sense now why when someone tells me that distance will help increase percieved value, why I'm so willing to try it?

Oh yeah and he is highly congruent and aware - his words and actions match exactly in the present moment. He does change his mind a lot though.

End of October Sample when things started to go nuts:
He always says he's been hurt by his wife leaving and doesn't know what he wants. However the 'not knowing' were always peppered by 'let's get married' comments earlier on. He's always been a bit up and down but one day in the fall it went like this: He'll say that we're so compatable in every way, he wants to stay with me forever...(this was only b/c I want to build a DC tesla coil, and we read spiritual books to each other). 10 min later he's back to wanting to date other people, to figure out what he wants. 10 min after that he says he wants me to tell him not to date other people. Then he'll say that I should date other people, so I can figure out what I want too. 10 min later he's saying he's crazy and a 'failed experiment'. We can have this discussion all day. I finally get fed up and make moves to go home. He says he'll take me out for dinner, b/c we need to talk some more. Then he'll say I'm just too beautiful and he wants to take me to bed... this is just after he's said days earlier that he needs to see other people... Other times he'll say he needs me. Other times he'll say he's in love with me but scared. The last month or two he says he's not dating other people but doesn't know where we are going. WHAT THE HECK????????

Can a few of you conscious and emotionally aware men please translate for me???? lol.

[Murphy]

Yeah Translation: He's mixed up.

My girlfriend is often in a mood when I see her. I normally just tickle her and cheer her up. I don't reason with her I just have fun with her.

Your boyfriend is unconciously playing games with you because he's hot/cold. This gets you chasing him because you want that hotness all the time. You have to resist chasing him and getting stressed out over your relationship. Just do your own thing. If you find yourself thinking about him to much, just think about something else or go hang out with some of your girly mates.

Realise that theres no "thing" you can do to keep your man. Its important to just be chilled out. Paradoxically the best way to keep a man is to not be bothered if he left.

I thoroughly recomend Paige Parker from Dating Without Drama | Official Site - Understand Men
You don't even need to buy anything her email series is amazing.

Hope this helps. X

[RT Wolf]

You may find some value in reading Games People Play. Not everything in the book is a game and thus (IMO) reprehensible, but instead provides great insight into the human mind.

Beyond that, have you considered he might have an emotional/affective disorder like manic-depressive disorder?

That is about the only thing of value I can think of it to say. I suppose you can try reading The Power of Now to help you deal with your attachment, or whatever.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Silent Lucidity

Can a few of you conscious and emotionally aware men please translate for me????

Clearly he is confused and frustrated with a lot of things in his (past) life. It has absolutely nothing to do with you, it's all about him. You can't make him work through all this faster than he is willing and able to do...

All you can do, really, is decide whether you want to stay or go.

Either you stick with him until he does come around (if he does) or you leave to pursue other relationships that are more in line with what you would like to have. Those are your options. You cannot expect him to be available for a committed relationship right now, because he has a lot on his plate that needs solving (at least in his mind).

[angies]

You need to read this book, The Rules, in a hurry. It teaches the old fashion way of how women should conduct herself in a relationship. It is not about playing games, it is all about building your self esteem, Knowing yourself and value yourself before any one else, "Soul mate" or otherwise.

I really feel for you but as much as you want to save this relationship, there is not much you can do if the other person is not into it. It takes two to build and maintain a relationship.

[garentee]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

Clearly he is confused and frustrated with a lot of things in his (past) life. It has absolutely nothing to do with you, it's all about him. You can't make him work through all this faster than he is willing and able to do...

All you can do, really, is decide whether you want to stay or go.

Either you stick with him until he does come around (if he does) or you leave to pursue other relationships that are more in line with what you would like to have. Those are your options. You cannot expect him to be available for a committed relationship right now, because he has a lot on his plate that needs solving (at least in his mind).

I would say this is pretty darn spot on advice from Jim.I had a dating situation with a fine woman recently that had to end on both of our sides. In both cases that which we were dealing with had NOTHING to do with the other..It is not really pleasant that it had to end but in the end it really makes the most sense. There is no point in being with someone if they can only give a little bit of themselves.. I know that the possibility exists that we can start up again but I am not hanging my hat on it...Be his friend let him be. If he wants to be with you he will, if not its really ok. I find that it is best to not put so much importance on another.. and if you cannot be with him there is probably something that you can work on in yourself...The people you attract in life are your mirror. Hope this helps good luck G

[funchy]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

Clearly he is confused and frustrated with a lot of things in his (past) life. It has absolutely nothing to do with you, it's all about him. You can't make him work through all this faster than he is willing and able to do...

All you can do, really, is decide whether you want to stay or go.

Either you stick with him until he does come around (if he does) or you leave to pursue other relationships that are more in line with what you would like to have. Those are your options. You cannot expect him to be available for a committed relationship right now, because he has a lot on his plate that needs solving (at least in his mind).

Amen.

And an additional 2 cents: sounds like you need a guy who has space in his life for you. Why stay with someone who does not, hoping one day he might change? Life is too short, and there are so many fish in the sea; don't sell yourself short by settling.

[Silent Lucidity]

Originally Posted by funchy

Amen.

And an additional 2 cents: sounds like you need a guy who has space in his life for you. Why stay with someone who does not, hoping one day he might change? Life is too short, and there are so many fish in the sea; don't sell yourself short by settling.

The problem with leaving is that his personality is exactly in line with what I've been looking for for the last fifteen years! Very warm and kind, funny, responsive, reflective, super-intelligent, and yet he teases me all the time, but in a nice way. He's not totally 'david de angelo' because he also opens up to me a lot, in conversation. We share similar spiritual values as well. Also he reminds me of another ex-boyfriend from my past - I was never quite able to get over, so getting together with him was like a second chance, a miracle.

I have pretty high standards, and he meets those standards - except for his current hot/cold nature.

He always talks about how much he was in love with his ex-wife, how happy they were together, how well he looked after her. Yet, she left??? She (apparently) wanted someone less 'passionate' and 'moody' and apparently she got lonely. I wish I could talk with her!!

ALL: I have 'The Rules', and I've read 'The Power of Now'. Both excellent books. I'll look into the others, thanks so much for your suggestions.

[Silent Lucidity]

Originally Posted by garentee

Be his friend let him be. If he wants to be with you he will, if not its really ok. I find that it is best to not put so much importance on another.. and if you cannot be with him there is probably something that you can work on in yourself...The people you attract in life are your mirror. Hope this helps good luck G

Thank you g, at least he's always said he'd be my friend no matter what... that's what my ex-like-him said, but it turned out not to be true, so sad as we were both artists and were inspired by each other's art... In this case though, I think I actually believe him, about the friendship....

because he's so flexible, he can change his mind back at any time, at least that's my feeling about it. Not saying I'd wait forever, but a few more months until we both get a little more clear-minded won't hurt.

[Holistic Star]

Originally Posted by Silent Lucidity

I have pretty high standards, and he meets those standards - except for his current hot/cold nature.

His hot / cold nature IS his nature. It IS him. You can't have everything - but that. His wife left him because of his moods. It is him.

I'm sorry to say but getting involved with someone on the rebound is rarely a good idea. People need space when they come out of a relationship. Space to find themselves again. If they leap too soon into a full-on relationship they don't have time to process it. Some people need a couple of weeks, in other more complicated situations they need a LOT more time to sort out their feelings, their anger, their hurt etc.

So yes he needs space, not because of the value of women in society, but because he needs to sort out his feelings. The same way a woman would in a similar situation.

You need space too.

[Silent Lucidity]

Originally Posted by RT Wolf

You may find some value in reading Games People Play. Not everything in the book is a game and thus (IMO) reprehensible, but instead provides great insight into the human mind.

Beyond that, have you considered he might have an emotional/affective disorder like manic-depressive disorder?

That is about the only thing of value I can think of it to say. I suppose you can try reading The Power of Now to help you deal with your attachment, or whatever.

I've read P.O.N.

Thank you for the other book reccomendation. I'll check it out. How would I know if he has something like manic-depressive disorder?

I watch my folks, and even when they disagree, they can still tap into and remember the positive, remember that they love each other. My current boyfriend can't do that very well at all. When he's in a bad mood, he can't 'see' that the mood colors his experience, and that's a concern. Same with when he's in a good mood - he only identifies with all other past experiences from his current frame-of-mind - if that makes sense

Also, the other day on the phone, he said he doesn't have time for everything and that he's not juggling things very well right now (implying us). I said you're doing very well with everything that's happened. He sounded reflective and regretful, so that gives me hope.

[Silent Lucidity]

Originally Posted by Holistic Star

His hot / cold nature IS his nature. It IS him. You can't have everything - but that. His wife left him because of his moods. It is him.

I'm sorry to say but getting involved with someone on the rebound is rarely a good idea. People need space when they come out of a relationship. Space to find themselves again. If they leap too soon into a full-on relationship they don't have time to process it. Some people need a couple of weeks, in other more complicated situations they need a LOT more time to sort out their feelings, their anger, their hurt etc.

So yes he needs space, not because of the value of women in society, but because he needs to sort out his feelings. The same way a woman would in a similar situation.

You need space too.

I don't need space. I need friends I used to have tonnes of friends in two cities, before I moved to this small town....

Thank you for the advice. I know this now, of course. I've never had a rebound. When I asked him about rebound when we first met, he had never heard of the term. He was persuing me relentlessly.

If his hot/cold nature is his nature, how on earth did he even get married to his ex-wife at all???? They lasted 34 years before she left. He said they were so happy together. Yet he says b/c of his childhood he can't 'handle' conflict - any conflict, even a verbal disagreement - he just leaves. wierd.

Wow! Insight!!! so I guess now, I must wean myself off of him. Gently...so it doesn't hurt too much.

or:

I can be steady, phone him when I 'need' to (every four days or so), work on myself in the mean time, and give him space.

Thank you so much for your advice!!! I really mean that!!!

[Brutha]

If you feel that your boyfriend wants to have more space, I think that it's game playing to give him more space.
It would simply be considering his needs.

It teaches the old fashion way of how women should conduct herself in a relationship. It is not about playing games,

Conducting yourself in a way that some book tells you to conduct is the core essense of game playing.
Some games are fun to play and can be enjoyable, others aren't.
Everybody is free to choose whether he wants to play games and I don't think that people who want to play games from time to time should be judged negatively for it.
However being conscious is about knowing that you play a game.

Steve Pavlina even says that we should take our jobs as a game and other areas of our life too. The key is to be conscious that you are playing games if you do play games.

[Silent Lucidity]

Originally Posted by angies

You need to read this book, The Rules, in a hurry. It teaches the old fashion way of how women should conduct herself in a relationship. It is not about playing games, it is all about building your self esteem, Knowing yourself and value yourself before any one else, "Soul mate" or otherwise..

I have always had a myriad of hobbies, 2 degrees, and fairly accurate self-knowledge, and willingness to learn. I have let it slide a little in the last two years. Time to fix that.

This leads back to my original question in a way, how would using stratagies found in 'The Rules' affect a man who has temporary low self-confidence, who maybe 'needs' the occasional phone call?

If I suddenly withdraw, he might just take it as a sign I'm no longer interested, and withdraw as well. I don't want to withdraw, it causes pain, but I see 'progress' when I do, but I don't know if the progress is all in my head, or how it would compare to if I did more, or less.

I don't mind occasional 'game playing' if it serves the greater good, or even my own personal good, without hurting another.

It's funny, not one single person said that trying harder and being stable, being there for him, is the answer. Yet that's what I get as advice from my immediate family...

[lasti]

Originally Posted by Silent Lucidity

The problem with leaving is that his personality is exactly in line with what I've been looking for for the last fifteen years! Very warm and kind, funny, responsive, reflective, super-intelligent, and yet he teases me all the time, but in a nice way. He's not totally 'david de angelo' because he also opens up to me a lot, in conversation. We share similar spiritual values as well. Also he reminds me of another ex-boyfriend from my past - I was never quite able to get over, so getting together with him was like a second chance, a miracle.

I have pretty high standards, and he meets those standards - except for his current hot/cold nature.

Maybe you should consider polyamory so you find somebody else to fulfill your other needs.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Silent Lucidity

The problem with leaving is that his personality is exactly in line with what I've been looking for for the last fifteen years!

Worst. Excuse. Ever.

I have pretty high standards, and he meets those standards - except for his current hot/cold nature.

Yeah, makes total sense to keep driving a Porche when you actually want a Ferrari...

If you're so happy with the Porche, why'd you start this thread?

Is this relationship REALLY what you want? If so, by all means, stay!

[angies]

Sometimes we ask a question, but we do not want hear the answer. Instead we only want somebody to re-enforce what we like to believe. You are an intelligent girl who can make up her own mind. I am sure you will find the answer. It's hard to say what is right or wrong when it comes to the matter of the heart.

From my experience, if you really want him to stay, you need to re-read this book. There are so many points in there that are so relavant for your situation. I have dealt with the hot and cold type many times and there is one thing that I can tell you for sure that as you get colder he would get warmer. And when he is thawing and comes back to you, just be very pleasant, no drama, no explanation. Just be your normal, pleasant, intelligent self and welcoming him back in your arms. I did it many times, not to play games but just simply protecting my heart, my pride and dignity. To me no guys is worthy enough for my to give up all those. and surpringly they always come back but whether I still want them when they come back to me is another question. Because simply my dear the hot and cold type is just not really worth the effort. I like my man hot, hot and hot all the time.

good luck.

[Pequod]

@OP

I don't agree with the advice here.

I get that your real wish is to experience real love (i.e. connection and emotional intimacy), but somehow the men in your life make that an impossibility.

The real question is *why* you fall for these guys. What do they give you that you (unconsciously) want?

You talk about raising your perceived value, applying delaying tactics to get your men to change, womens power taken away in the 60's, and you write stuff like:"We can't escape the deep emotional attachment that physical intimacy causes"

I mean, c'mon, isn't it obvious? You are yourself afraid for emotional intimacy (wich comes with emotional vulnerabilty), and therefore you are looking to tactics and strategies to get the men to do what you want. Well, even if you succeed in that, you still will feel unsatisfied because there is no real love in that and on top of it you will lose respect for men you can manipulate like that. By the way, this is why you fall for the 'wrong' men: they cannot or will not be intimate with you, and that suits you fine, cuz now you can blame them for the lack of love and connection.

James Carse wrote that there are two kind of lovers: movers and touchers. The movers want to move the other to a place they have decided beforehand. The touchers want to (emotionally) touch the other, and know that they can only touch someone else if the other touches them as well.

You're a mover and that's why you miss the connection and intimacy in your relationships. You need to get from behind the wall that shields your emotions, and expose yourself for real, even if it will hurt sometimes. Only then can you experience true intimacy and connection.

[Holistic Star]

Stay Away From The Rules!!!!


Please for the love of god, put the book down and move away slowly.


Do you really want to end up with a pushy guy who won't take no for an answer?


You were wondering how it would work on someone with low self-esteem. It wouldn't. I met a lovely sweet guy at a party a few years ago, and a couple of days later he called me and asked me out that evening. I said no. I wasn't play the rules on him. It was a genuine reason. I was decorating my bedroom at the time and it was the only chance I was going to get as my housemate was away and besides which I was covered in paint! I explained this and said that I would like to go out another time and bless him all he said was 'so you'd rather watch paint dry, than go out with me?' in a mournful tone and that was that and he never called again.

The rules has it's place in saying 'don't be too available' for a man - I agree. No-one wants somebody too clingy - male or female. But don't follow it to the letter for goodness sake!


I agree with Pequod. The reason I said you needed space too, was that you need to do some introspection about why you choose the men you do. You said you weren't over your ex properly yet. Well then your not really available for another relationship until you've processed that one otherwise you're bringing all kinds of baggage into the relationship that doesn't belong in it.

[crescive]

I think YOU are the only person who can create value for yourself. It's about valuing yourself more than anyone else, even your soulmate, even your husband, and even if you don't believe it. This is the only way that other people will perceive you as valuable, when they see that you value yourself. This is not to sound snobbish or full of yourself, that would be false self-love, true self-love means that you understand the best way to make the other person happy and feel loved is if you feel happy and loved. If your mate is acting cold, I think the best thing to do is to decide if you want someone like that, and hopefully you will believe that it is behavior that you don't deserve. This attitude change will get him to either act up quickly, when he realizes that he might lose you with his indecision, or that maybe you two just aren't right for one another at this time. Either way, it is for the best, and it will be a completely honest moment, no games needed. In my opinion, games are easily seen through and are the trademark of insecurity which would be divisive to your being of complete self-love.

[crescive]

Oh, I also wanted to say that I don't think it is necessary to wait to make the man want a woman more. I think the woman should be so sexually empowered that SHE can have sex because SHE wants it and has the ability to take that from the man and own it. It does require a bit of detachment from what you were saying about how when a woman receives an orgasm she feels a strong emotional connection that makes her want to commit to the man, I have to admit I definitely feel that too, however, as soon the sex and snuggling and cuddling is over, I am still an independent strong minded woman and my sense of self is not clouded over by an orgasm! I think it is much more sexy and appealing when men realize they are with a very sexually empowered woman who is proud of her body and her sex and is probably receiving more pleasure from sex than he is! I think this feeling makes a man want a woman more, to be the one who pleases her the most. This puts sex back in control for the woman when the man is actively trying his best to do all he can to give the woman a mind blowing orgasm. (Mm..is it getting hot in here?)