Those For and Against The Seduction Community

[DJCT]

I was involved in the community for a while and wanted to offer a few thoughts I had after reading Steve's recent posts on polyamory and some of the forum responses. These reflect my personal experience, not necessarily the views of the seduction community or any of its members. I'm not a guru. I got into the community, learned what I needed to and got out. I'm good at picking up women although certainly not the best. But being the best at it is kind of like being the best at brushing teeth---who really gives a crap? You can either get the job done or you can't.

I'll give an overview of the guys I met through the community and then my thoughts for both men and women when it comes to how they view and/or participate in community.

There are pretty much 3 types of guys I've met in the pickup community: those that get good and become teachers, those that get good and move on, and those that stay in for months and then years---reading, buying stuff, attending bootcamps, studying, sarging, arguing. Everything except making actual progress.

The teachers I met were cool. They care a great deal about the work they are doing. I don't agree with a lot of the techniques and tactics that are sold as being able to manipulating woman. They are distractions from the real work to be done which is on the man himself and on handling certain kinds of situations. The techniques are marketable though and have made some marketing-savvy gurus very wealthy.

The guys that get in and out have all sorts of purposes. Some want to rack up a score like the Red Baron. Some want their first girlfriend. Some are getting back on their feet after a divorce. They tend to be pretty normal guys on the whole though and just need a little push and some guidance. They struggle for a bit, then they start to improve rapidly. Once they are getting results they start to withdraw from the community. On their way out they tend to help out other guys. I've met a handful of these guys. They may still stay connected with the community and help other guys but they are no longer "in it".

Those that are in the seduction community for more than a few months and can't seem to get it (meaning they don't have much success outside of what luck allows), tend to become warped. And they are the majority of the community. I saw it right from the time I got in up to the time I got out.

They become focused on techniques and thinking of life as if it is some kind of deterministic machine, thinking of their interactions with women as a simple equation to be mastered. "If I can simply do x, y and z exactly right, she will do exactly as I wish."

And so they work hard to learn more and more and more. As their personal corpus of pickup lore grows without an equal increase in their success rate, their self-esteem drops. There is a situation in computer science called thrashing where more and more resources are consumed to do a decreasing amount of work. Kind of the same thing that happens with these guys. It is a vicious cycle.

There is a second affliction these guys develop. The start becoming more focused on impressing other guys in the community than in actually getting results. Their identity starts getting tightly dependant on the community and in their knowledge of pickup. The thing is that they appear knowledgable but when you meet them in real life and get them in a situation with a woman---as opposed to the text entry box on an internet forum---you see that for all their blustering, they are utterly lost and helpless. And some of these guys are really sharp and probably started out cool. But they get warped. And the downward spiral they are locked in completely hollows them out. It happened to a friend and it is one of the saddest things I've seen. It also happened to a few acquaintances. They are half empty, half confused. Yet they are febrile and try harder than ever. I can't bring myself to associate with them anymore. They seem inhuman and it's tough to tell what drives them at this point.

If you are a woman and offended by the thought of men studying seduction, I have to ask: have you picked up an issue of Cosmo or any teeny-bopper glossy rag lately? How to kiss, how to tell if he likes you, how to be good in bed, the sex secret that will have him worshipping you, how to get him to say yes, how to get him to stay, how to get him away from an ex-girfriend, ad naseum. Yes I know, not all women read those magazines. Well, not all guys study pickup either.

For guys that are interested, the community can be a good thing if you approach it the right way. Take it all with a grain of salt. Don't become obsessed or fixated. Don't get wrapped up in keyboard warriorship. If you aren't getting it after a bit, take a break and work on other areas of your life. In pickup, less is more. It's not hard. It shouldn't be a hobby or a past-time. It is a life skill like putting on band aids. Do you buy DVDs to study brushing your teeth? Do you argue with other keyboard warriors in an internet forum on the best technique for wiping your butt after you poo? You have to think of pickup and other social skills as being very close to those kinds of things. Like building networking or sales skills in the business world. It isn't a way of life (anybody who calls himself a PUA is a dork)---it's simply a skill.

If you are going to get into pickup, get in, figure out how you personally need to feel in order to connect with a woman, learn the techniques to handle certain situations (logistics), help other guys when you have experienced success, and then get out.

[jawillie]

Thanks for sharing! I had zero clue there was such a thing as a "seduction community," I have learned something new today. I have to admit, though, I watched both seasons of the Pick Up Artist. That guy cracks me up, but I was rooting for all the men in the show. I saw it more as them working on themselves and believing in themselves than learning how to pick up women. Some of the terms cracked me up, though, too and made me kinda glad I am not single anymore. What were the terms again.... "sets"... dmvs and hmvs?? lol I forgot.. but they are funny.

[Xanafax]

Wow thanks DJCT thats a wonderful post.

Its nice to hear from someone who traversed the community successfully. As you probably know I have been toying with the idea of diving in a giving it a go. I think this post has helped convince me to do just that.

[Holistic Star]

Thank you so much for your post. It was really helpful and great to get your perspective. I think my problem with it is that from my perspective it seems consciousness lowering and dehumanising, but perhaps that's because I've seen the third type of guys you mention who get stuck rather than the type who learn, grow and get out.

In addition it's quite interesting what happens to men when they 'run out of material'. If they had been going for the consciousness raising approach this wouldn't be a problem. It's when you learn lines as though they are holy scripture and pretend to be someone you are not that you have problems.

I laughed at the bit in the book the Game where he says 'excuse me' to a woman. And she replies 'Let me guess, you have a friend whose girlfriend is jealous because he still talks to his ex from college.' and he realises what they have done is create clones of themselves rather than free thinkers.

I dont read cosmo or any women's magazines (ok I do have a sneaky peak while I'm at the hairdressers!) and you are right they have been running articles with the titles the ones you mentioned for decades. However the content is generally different. They don't say, try this 5 step opener, try to change locations longer so he gets 'time distortion'. They don't tend to dehumanise men by calling them 'sets' and refering to other people as 'wing-men' or 'obstacles', refer to them having the 'doggy-dinner-bowl-look' when interestsed, write 'field reports' up on the net, call talking to men 'fluffing', 'freeze out' men to make them more interested, think 'one-itis' is a disease or use 'yes-ladders'. Language moulds thought. If you use dehumanising terms for genuine human interaction, it becomes dehumanised.

I'm all for flirting. I'm all for learning how to present your best self, I'm all for makeovers where you look and feel better. One of my favourite programmes on UK TV was 'Would like to meet' where a confidence coach, style coach and relationship coach worked with someone for 6 weeks to help them date. It was wonderful watching people blossom and develop the confidence to interact genuinely with people.

[pyrogen]

It's about time men were taught how to date.

My observation, as a female outside observer of PUA, is that guys are finally doing what women have done in every culture where arranged marriage wasn't practiced. Like anything, the techniques can be used for good or evil I'm one of those odd women who's had platonic male friendships that were actually platonic, and I've known several "natural" PUAs now and had the great fortune to shadow them on their rounds.

From what I've seen of the PUAs who are going to use the techniques to manipulative and destructive ends, have already been doing so. They've already been "players" since their teen years and early twenties. They don't have "technique". They are "prodigies".

I think the average age 25+ PUA student is some "nerd" trying to get past the stage where women throw drinks in his face. He likely has been through the "nice guy syndrome" phase where he overgives to women who could care less and now is dating with a healthier level of detachment.

Guys are starting to understand that they can't just get a woman and sustain a relationship based upon one or two traits (such as money) alone. They have to actually do something. They are starting to have the same consciousness about their "market value" in the dating arena, that women have had.

Many of the PUA "rules" sound exactly like a male version of "The Rules" or the softer versions of same in women's relationship books.

Men are starting to actually think, "Maybe I'm doing something wrong", and LISTEN to the advice offered them by more experienced people, instead of bumbling around thinking they know everything.

The average woman goes through this in the dating world: we are socialized to get fixed up and be attractive for our partners, not to talk too much, et cetera.

Who meets us at the date? Usually a schlumpy guy who didn't comb his hair, has poor grooming, and poor social skills.

It's about time, and it's been long overdue, that men were actually taught how to date.

[funchy]

The problem is that if you read the PUA sites, the goal is the score. Not a relationship. Not to be kind to another. Not to be honest, giving, or considerate. The whole energy is put into getting a SCORE and nothing else matters. The woman isn't a woman, she's a vagina or a spot on a scorecard.

It's a cycle. Male isn't sure he trusts women. Male buys into PUA mindset and treats women like scorecard marks, and everything is put in terms of "if I do X, I can get Y from her". Some women buy into the act, so it's proof the whole mindset must be correct, right? And then it becomes proof that women must all be "playing a game" too. And if the man can't be trusted, clearly by this logic women can't be either. Which goes back to reinforce the idea that women aren't worthy of trust & respect.

PUAs don't realize that their lines only work on the naive or on a woman who knows he's fake and is also using him. Is that really a big conquest when you can exploit someone who is still too innocent to see through the lies? Doesn't the PUA know it's the act the women are reacting to, not the real him?

I feel it's sad because it's often times good people who just lack confidence who get pulled into this. And as good (or cute, funny, and smart) as he was, I won't take him seriously if he's trying to be Mr Pick Up Artist. Some of them outgrow it and now have to work on trying to make sex meaningful again.

And since it's only about notches on a bedpost, not relating to another human being, guys can get caught into trying to score two in a night. Then it's three. Then, to get the same initial thrill, they keep pushing themselves to pick up someone every night. What happens when the deep loneliness catches up with him even when he can screw a stranger each night? Isn't loneliness the reason why he started searching for help in the first place?

I think my biggest bone of contention is that the entire thing is a sham. If I open an acting school and teach someone to act like a doctor with an act that makes him appear confident, that doesn't give him the skills to do surgery. And, one day when acting gets old, what is left? A guy who has a 1000 meaningless, quick sexual encounters with strangers and who still doesn't know how to relate to a woman as a person? Will he ever trust women if he knows how easy it is for one person to play another?

There are many better ways to obtain self improvement without giving up one's identity or respect for the opposite sex. Not all dating self improvement is PUA. Stick to the honest stuff.... or just be yourself, throw all the books away, and get out there & relate to people.

And as a side note: this isn't about polygamy vs monogamy. I am not trying to make anyone commit if they don't wish to. I just want them to be themselves and be honest about their intentions.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by DJCT

Do you argue with other keyboard warriors in an internet forum on the best technique for wiping your butt after you poo?

I discovered the other day that some guys wipe their butt standing up, rather than sitting down. Don't ask.

Originally Posted by funchy

Isn't loneliness the reason why he started searching for help in the first place?

Well maybe for some...

I don't get lonely really.

For me it was the sense that I was utterly powerless.

My objective was always to get to the stage where I know I could if I wanted.

I'm not sure I reached that stage though. I'm very hit and miss. Still not sure what to do about that.

Actually, getting a girlfriend may be the solution. I've always thought it would be a bad idea, but maybe that would be a good idea. Regular sex without too much effort. Brilliant! I can't believe I haven't thought of this earlier.

[Brutha]

The problem is that if you read the PUA sites, the goal is the score.

That is like saying:
I read all those health websites but all they talk about as a goal is some number that represents how much I weigh.
Having metrics helps people to evaluate different actions.
Most PUA websites don't tell their audience which goal it has to persue.

Will he ever trust women if he knows how easy it is for one person to play another?

So your basic argument is that ignorance is bliss? Truth is bad? We shouldn't know how easy it is that one person manipulates another?
Trusting someone is a choice that is a lot more meaningful if you trust someone regardles of your knowledge that the other person might fail you.

[allirowe23]

As their personal corpus of pickup lore grows without an equal increase in their success rate, their self-esteem drops. There is a situation in computer science called thrashing where more and more resources are consumed to do a decreasing amount of work. Kind of the same thing that happens with these guys.

I do this with spirituality. I didn't realize it until I read that. I'll learn as much as I can about a particular belief or idea or concept and then expect the insight to produce drastic result, when it doesn't I lose faith.

How do you get out of that sort of cycle?

[Savage]

Originally Posted by DJCT

If you are going to get into pickup, get in, figure out how you personally need to feel in order to connect with a woman, learn the techniques to handle certain situations (logistics), help other guys when you have experienced success, and then get out.

I like your mindset about this. It's the same one I use with various growth challenges. Tackle a new skill, integrate it, help others with it, and move on to something else.

If you self-identify with a skill for too long, you just hold yourself back from experiencing the full richness that life has to offer.

[Silent Lucidity]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

I like your mindset about this. It's the same one I use with various growth challenges. Tackle a new skill, integrate it, help others with it, and move on to something else.

If you self-identify with a skill for too long, you just hold yourself back from experiencing the full richness that life has to offer.

If you decide to play a musical instrument, or study painting, it can take a lifetime to master.... depth v.s. diversity of experience...

an interesting dilemma.

Re: all these recent threads, I've been curious about becoming a female PUA, but I'd have to make at least 50k a year first laugh, sigh.

[TonyToneTone]

It's about time men were taught how to date.

I agree with this. The Seduction Community can be great with what it has to offer. Like Steve said:

Tackle a new skill, integrate it, help others with it, and move on to something else.

[splat]

Originally Posted by funchy

The problem is that if you read the PUA sites, the goal is the score. Not a relationship. Not to be kind to another. Not to be honest, giving, or considerate. The whole energy is put into getting a SCORE and nothing else matters. The woman isn't a woman, she's a vagina or a spot on a scorecard.

I think this represents a good portion, probably majority of the pickup community, but this isn't always the case.

Many guys get into PU not necessarily to get sex, not to impress their friends or internet buddies with their 'conquests', sometimes just to be able to get over their social anxiety, or get into a relationship.

For me, pickup was something that totally changed my life, and it wasn't about scoring or getting sex. It gave me more confidence to talk to people that were older, younger, male or female, and be able to interact with these people. It was a major catalyst for change in my life. Because of that confidence and the positivity that I got from the 'community' many other aspects of my life changed, and many doors of opportunity opened up to me. In fact, this website was recommended to me by some in the community.

I should add though, that what you wrote is EXACTLY how I felt when I was first introduced to the community (Fast Seduction 101: Art of Pick-up and Seduction) It didn't feel right, and it seemed superficial and just didn't resonate with me. However I was still intrigued and very soon after I found the first website listed, I found a link on the site to Home - Pickup Podcast - Where Gurus Gather This did resonate with me, and this has a very different take on pickup, which is more personal development, directed at social interactions.

[Scorpio]

These are some good articles outlining the usual criticisms of the seduction community.

This guy is from the 'get in, get out' category:

Can The Seduction Community Help Inexperienced Guys?
Detrimental Attitudes You Can Pick Up Through The Seduction Community
Odd But Mostly Harmless Things Guys In The Seduction Community Do
Some Core Reasons The Seduction Community Is So Weird
Weird Dynamics That Can Occur Between Seduction Community Members

[Change42008]

my opnion is that people who need to read pua material generally havent been good that socially with women.

apart from people teaching inner game stuff, people who teach "how to" do this and how to do that, and list countless methods and techniques - these people are simply experts in marketing, nlp, persuasion and psychology. e.g. eben pagan.

these people have created huge belief systems as a way of marketing. none of these belief systems are necessarily true. look at the ideas and language of eben pagan aka david d'angelo in this article Interview With Eben Pagan (David DeAngelo) From Double Your Dating

and compare it to his book double your dating. his first ebook - he seems like two completely different people, because his book is based all on marketing.

my take is, like anything, its all about confidence. pua has a lot of bad advice in it, which confuses people and causes them to stay in there and never get out. like the op says it can empty a guy out of life.

advice like fake it till you make it - these ambiguus things mean a guy should pretend that he is something he isnt.
be dominant, uncontrollable, unpredictable blah blah blah
dont be yourself. dont ask women for advice
dont be logical
in population there are majority wussys and a few attractive bad men.

these are fundamentals of the community. they try to warp your logic and rational. the advice that is good is dont be too needy on peoples reactons.

but by mixing the two you can make people worse - for example by categorising men into two things, you automatically assume that you are a wussy or afc or whatever. you then are constantly trying to be the "attractive" person (as you can see this marketing works on your ego); it makes you feel attractive - although this confidence doesnt come from within, or from experience; it comes from these beliefs - that you believe because you are assuming that this PUA knows these things, and that he is an expert at picking up women. you then do the contrary to not being needy - you become more needy - trying to be this "attractive" man by "faking it till you make it". the whole process acts like a drug, the high being the confidence, and the reactions from women which in my experience i found to be empty.

i came into this community with no confidence with women. however im left with no self acceptance either, by thinking in these black and white terms. iv skipped the step of self acceptance, that its ok not to be able to be confident around women. the community just encourages you to beat yourself up most of the time. or encourages you to chase an outcome - by making you believe that this is what women want. its all marketing. its where the money lies.

[pyrogen]

I agree about how most of PUA material reads, but want to point out a few things...

The stuff about techniques, marketing, NLP, persuasion, etc. is exactly like books that women read, the wording's just a little different. How is "How to make a man fall in love with you" (name of a book!) or "The Rules" or "Why Men Marry Bitches" any different?

Originally Posted by Change42008

advice like fake it till you make it - these ambiguus things mean a guy should pretend that he is something he isnt.

"Fake it til you make it" usually doesn't mean pretend to be a suave tango instructor when you're a shy engineer.

It generally means, in "self help" books, to throw yourself into a situation even if you're scared and pretend you're confident. After a while, you'll really be confident.

Originally Posted by Change42008

be dominant, uncontrollable, unpredictable blah blah blah

Same advice given by women's dating books, except they say to pretend one is *not* dominant. And again, pretend. "The Rules" isn't about being submissive, it's about "topping from the bottom" and letting the other peson THINK they're in charge, while the woman is actually in charge.

Originally Posted by Change42008

dont be yourself. dont ask women for advice

Same as one of "The Rules" which is not to let a man be a woman's therapist.

Originally Posted by Change42008

dont be logical

I'll have to see that in context.

The women's version of PUA (which tends to be focused around either getting men to spend money, or getting men to commit) isn't any less destructive, IMHO. We need to come to an understanding of the sexes actually being human beings.

But I'm still glad to see that men actually are interested in learning how to date. It's about time for that. Someone had to tell Average Joe Schlump that he couldn't just show up on a woman's doorstep without washing his hair in three days. And men really needed a refresher course in asking women out. Gen X was really a bad dating place. Hopefully the next generation of guys is more proactive.

[Erock]

I met up with a bunch of seduction community guys a couple times. I honestly don't know if I've ever been around a bigger bunch of losers and I say that with complete respect for the community. It has taught me a lot, and I still like to read stuff about it occasionally, but really and truly, if you're a normal cool guy, just realize that you can approach girls anywhere and if you are not a normal cool guy, fix that first.

Erock

[Gozunn]

Hey everyone I've dabbled in the seduction community a bit, and I've read a part of fast seduction but when they started mentioning 'routines' and 'patterns'...well that's when I decided it wasn't for me. I didn't give up though, there are some good seduction methods that have appealed to me. These 'methods' (not really methods but rather mindsets) feel more natural- and you can actually be yourself. In fact I hear PUAs first go through routines to get confidence and THEN they take this step.

I decided I'm gonna skip the 'routines' bit:

Anyways the ultimate Natural out there, who is a total lover of women is Zan Perrion. This guy has got CLASS and he totally stands out from the rest of the losers who trade self-acceptance and pride for a little social approval.

Just so I can have said everything I must admit...The Gunwitch Method has also helped me develop, its a bit rough around the edges but the author is giving advice from a personal non-professional viewpoint.

So aspiring 'PUAs' if you want to GROW and still be YOURSELF google those two guys. Forget low-lives like Mystery or DeAngelo

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Gozunn

So aspiring 'PUAs' if you want to GROW and still be YOURSELF google those two guys. Forget low-lives like Mystery or DeAngelo

You know, I don't really care for those guys either, but I think you should try growing past the point where you need to call people you don't like "low-lives".

[marinik]

In Steve's blog about going polyamorous he says that he has learned more about women from men than women! OK it sounds logical as we women do know our way around men and can teach our daughters a few things, but as women in her 50's I am so curious what you are talking about?! What kind of lessons?

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by marinik

In Steve's blog about going polyamorous he says that he has learned more about women from men than women! OK it sounds logical as we women do know our way around men and can teach our daughters a few things, but as women in her 50's I am so curious what you are talking about?! What kind of lessons?

If we could explain it, it wouldn't be true, would it?

[marinik]

When we give advices on how to treat men we love, and I am not talking about manipulation, we come from a point of wanting to make you guys happy. At least this is true for women I know. We do this not because we are selfless, or unbelievably noble but because we want this for ourselves too! It is called the strategies of love. We do to others what we like to be done to us.

So I come from a "bread" that never nags, screams, makes demands and asks for ransom or has these bad PMS hysteria fits. I treat with respect and ask to be treated with respect. To sum it up I never do to to others what I don't want to be done to me. I never take my men for granted! And do not allow to be taken for granted.

There is a good Hungarian saying - Even the most beautiful women is boring to someone. Well we tend to forget what attracted us to somebody, what we adored and were crazy about. After some time goes by we can only start to see little annoying habits or hear a tone we dislike.... but I nurture the feelings from the beginning of the relationship and try very hard not to forget what rocked my world in that person.

I got carried away but just to clear where I am coming from in trying to understand what you are saying.

[Change42008]

i take the viewpoint that men and women want similar things. its just our social programming which makes us behave in different ways. as a guy growing up its kool to have had sex with many women, or even have sex. if you havent then you feel you need to do something about it. i dont know whether this is the same for women growing up. but this is the kind of social programming im talking about. unfortunately pua gurus use this as a marketing tactic to chase an outcome. and the smokescreen is basically "this is helping guys to become better men" and "we are trying to give women what they really want - even though they dont know what they want themselves" and ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ like that.

a better complete focus for men would be - why do we want women? what do we want with a woman? what is a woman to me? thus allowing guys to know what they want rather than just skipping these important steps.

finally i dont understand how pua is a skill. take dancing for example. i was completely without self confidence at this at one point. once i learnt the moonwalk and forced myself to dance in front of a group of people (while i was completely drunk btw) people started to think i was amazing. now if someone asks me are you a good dancer id know that i am with great confidence. with pua though - what skill are you learning? because in pua the emphasis is on personality, and so are u learning how to fake who you are or put on an act so that you get your result - confidence with women? thats the problem with the community - i dont agree with teaching how to be confident with another human being. i think its better to teach how to be confident in yourself as a person. however when your learning these things, if your aim is to be confident with women, i think you miss the point. but i guess thats what my experiences have taught me and each to his own

[DJCT]

Originally Posted by Change42008

i take the viewpoint that men and women want similar things. its just our social programming which makes us behave in different ways.

While, ultimately, men and woman probably want some kind of durable happiness, what this means to each sex and the strategies each sex employs to achieve that end are different, and will often be at odds with each other. Our differences start at the level of biology and cascade through every aspect of expressing our being. As you say, social programming plays a role too of course. But don't write off the fundamental differences at the biological level or the significant ways those differences shape each sex.

[jaamkie]

My opinion, as a woman, is that it's all about balance between needily rushing into a relationship and appropriate open connection and cold closed-off distance. I think men starting on the needy-rushing-into-relationships side can benefit from learning to slow down and have more confidence and independence. I also think men who are too hesitant/intellectual can learn to take more chances and open up to immediate experiences.

On the other hand, I think men who are already more than confident and aggressive enough use the community as justification for their narcissistic shallow manipulative interactions with women. In those cases, I think the mantras "I don't care what she thinks of me, I'm not attached to the outcome, there are a million more women to choose from" close them off instead of opening them up to really connect with a particular woman on a deeper level.

Of course I think this equally applies to Cosmo etc relationship/sex advice- it's good for women to try to see the world from men's point of view and understand why common female habits can harm relationships, it's good for a woman to be confident and independent and not ashamed to enjoy sex, but women can also use the advice to justify cold manipulative behavior if they take it too far.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Change42008

with pua though - what skill are you learning? because in pua the emphasis is on personality, and so are u learning how to fake who you are or put on an act so that you get your result - confidence with women?

Social skills are, in fact, skills. Whether they are built on delivering a convincing performance that, at its core, is totally fake... or on presenting your own inner greatness in a startling display of authenticity, it's still a skill, and it's one you need to practice to get better at.

[Holistic Star]

I'd never recommend any woman follows The Rules, so at least I am equal opportunity in my recommendations not to play games in relationships.

Like Jaamkie says, some women would benefit from learning not to rush so needily into a relationship. so would some men too!


Pick up is a bit like selling. You can do it ethically or sleezily. In my first job I met a man who used to sell bathrooms. He said he loved it when he got an elderly couple to spend thousands on a bathroom they couldn't afford. He said it reflected well on his ability as a salesperson. I was when he told me and it put me of selling as a career because I thought it was all about manipulation. I couldn't bring myself to do that to people. I felt it was just plain wrong.

Many years later I discovered there is such a thing as ethical selling. You present the facts about your product, you even tell people if it isn't the right product for them (e.g. I don't think I'm the right coach for you, my speciality is in X and you need Y), you explain your processes and the benefits you offer and allow people to decide if they want it or not.

I guess in all professions you can be ethical or be a sleezebag. The choice is ours.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Holistic Star

I guess in all professions you can be ethical or be a sleezebag. The choice is ours.

Being a sleezebag isn't a very effective strategy.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Social skills are, in fact, skills. Whether they are built on delivering a convincing performance that, at its core, is totally fake... or on presenting your own inner greatness in a startling display of authenticity, it's still a skill, and it's one you need to practice to get better at.

Indeed, though I would say "fake" isn't a real concept to somebody who's happy to manipulate others. I don't know if this will make sense to many people but from that person's perspective the only thing that matters is whether it works. Besides, I suppose, how easy it is to apply and replicate, everything else is irrelevant.

[theknightwhosaysni-NI]

I haven't read the whole thread but I must admit the OP is a fairly accurate view of the community.

Some people get too much into an mathematical model, where they imagine there are buttons to push and equations to solve in order to make girls behave a certain way.

"Button pushing" is like manipulation, that is reducing the people's free will by making them act mechanically like robots. "If I act this way, she'll react this way", then "I'll have to do this and she may do this or that" "Then I'll have to choose the appropriate answer" etc.
I've seen that it works to get the desired results, but it requires a lots of calculation and a huge amount of energy. It also implies the belief that relationships is a very complicated thing.

That's why those who take this road usually stay a looong time in the community, and progress very slowly. There's also a risk of becoming slightly frustrated and paranoiac in seeing relationships as an action-reaction thing.

However, in my opinion, there are some technical aspects that one needs to learn about relationship. Communication, and even more romantic-like communication, like any other skill, do have some technical aspects to be learned. But that's just a tiny part. I'm not sure if relationships are simple or complicated, but I don't think it's empowering to see them like "mathematically complicated" if you see what I mean...

Ok, anyway, I've found that the community is rather interesting, and I've meet cool people in it. We would usually have very interesting conversations about relationships, much like this one actually

[Holistic Star]

Exactly knight and if you learn it as a formula, what happens when you come across a button that you don't have the script for?


Maybe sleezebag was a loaded judgemental term on my part (!). In any walk of life you can be ethical or inethical. You can be an ethical or inethical journalist, teacher, blogger, polititian etc.

And being a sleezebag seems to be an effective strategy for some. Especially if they conceal it well, but that's what sleezebags do.