I'm becoming insensitive

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by Angela

I'm so sorry you felt bad!

No need to be sorry! This issue is mine to deal with. Didn't I say I feel able to take anything now?

feeling another person's feelings for them

I don't know what exactly you mean by feeling another person's feelings for them. When I say I can feel other people's feelings, I'm feeling their feelings, but what does it mean to be feeling their feelings for them?

I don't refuse to acknowledge that she could feel exactly as you'd feel. I'm saying she doesn't feel your feelings; she feels her own, not yours, because she's the one feeling them, not you. As you yourself say, she feels them as if they were her own (until she realizes they aren't her own.)

Well, yes, as I said in a previous post, those vibrations go through my body and brain, so of course seen this way it's my feelings. When I say it's not my feelings, but those of someone else, I mean that these feelings (vibrations) have no source inside of me.

When I feel my own feelings, the source for them is in my body (or mind). My energetic body, anyway. I have some reason for feeling the way I do.

When I identify with someone else and feel how I would feel in their shoes, creating this parallel feeling you were talking about, then it's still my feelings, because despite of being identified with someone else, the reason, cause, source of my feelings still is inside of me. It's me feeling this way, I have a reason for feeling this way when I think of this situation this other person is in.

But when the source is outside of me and I just perceive these feelings outside of me and start vibrating at the same frequency, so to speak, then I consider this is not "my" feeling. Of course I'm feeling it now, but it first came from somewhere else. I have no personal reason at all for feeling the way I do. When I felt angry because Seeker felt angry, or upset because this guy was upset about his beer, or embarrassed because this other guy needed to pee, or sad because the girl sitting next to me in the bus is sad - then the source of the feeling is not in me. It's not my feelings, even though I'm feeling them now. That's why I say I'm feeling other people's feelings.

Does this make more sense?

As I see it, you believe that this third way of feeling, with the source being outside, just isn't possible to feel. Is that correct?

I'm very thankful for this thread, it allows me to get much, much clearer about what empathy is in the first place!

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Angela

You are right, there is a difference of opinion, which I didn't realize until Rose's last post. Until then, I thought it was a matter of semantics. But let's get this straight -- I don't refuse to acknowledge that she could feel exactly as you'd feel. I'm saying she doesn't feel your feelings; she feels her own, not yours, because she's the one feeling them, not you. As you yourself say, she feels them as if they were her own (until she realizes they aren't her own.)

Ok, yes she's not in my body feeling my feelings. However, to me what you're saying is like saying that someone standing next to me isn't seeing the same thing I'm seeing because, their eyes are not exactly where my eyes are, so they can't see exactly what I'm seeing. I don't buy that at this point.

So, even though I've explained that that's not what I'm saying at all, and in fact have said several times just the opposite, you still "am" peeved?

Oh? I hadn't understood how you said the opposite...?

Yes you've praised Rose a bunch of time on this thread, but that didn't change how you still affirm to the statement that for someone to declare that they feel exactly as someone else feels is for them to be arrogant (even if you don't believe her to arrogant, that statement still stands and I haven't seen you change your mind on that statement). Not that you need to change your mind on this statement...but yeah, I haven't seen anything in your responses that changed my reason for originally being peeved.

Originally Posted by Angela

...and I'm sure this won't be the last time.

Well, it's completely different saying "Empathy is overrated". That's just more of a declarative statement. Compare it to this:

Originally Posted by Angela

But the arrogance and inappropriateness comes in declaring you could possibly feel what I'm feeling

That's what got me to interject myself into this thread . It feels more like an attack...

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by seeker5

Yeah, I did feel this whole thing was like a "renegotiation" where the foundations of how we became so close was changed.

Ha! And me? It felt like a big renegociation for me too. Like a final one (called the end).

It took me months to change the way I did, and I clearly told you I had changed a lot and am not the same anymore. You were all cool about that, like "Yeaaah, no prooooblem...!", and then, all of the sudden, zack! We can't be intimate anymore and you won't bother talking about private stuff with me anymore. Basically, it's over.

I actually thought at times when she was violating my expectations on this that she didn't truly care that much about me.

Rubbish!

This thread has really helped me realized how much she still does care, so I'm quite grateful for this thread too.

Of course I do, stupid



How awesomely we always break up, don't you think?

[The Cloud]

Reminds me of a quote that occurred to me once; "I owe nothing for your gratitude." It doesn't directly apply to your situation, but more generally it means that I owe nothing to anybody for anything they have given me. It is my choice to give back, or not. You owe no compassion to anyone, no matter how many of their problems they place at your feet.

Sometimes the most compassionate thing to do is also perceived as the most harmful. Of course, if your words don't even gel well with you, then maybe you're just being hurtful. It doesn't really matter in the end, or the beginning, and I guess my rambling doesn't have any useful advice in it. Your ego is just going to have to suffer the new callous Rose without any compassion from me .

[Angela]

Originally Posted by seeker5

Ok, yes she's not in my body feeling my feelings. However, to me what you're saying is like saying that someone standing next to me isn't seeing the same thing I'm seeing because, their eyes are not exactly where my eyes are, so they can't see exactly what I'm seeing. I don't buy that at this point.

That is an excellent way of saying it, thank you. Even if you don't buy it.

.
That's what got me to interject myself into this thread . It feels more like an attack...

Maybe it feels like an attack because you are ignoring the context. You'll recall that Nani asked me why I felt that empathy was overrated and arrogant, and my response included my explanation of why I felt that way. I had no hostility or aggression towards Rose or anyone else when I gave Nani my explanation of why I feel the way I do, and I wasn't trying to diminish anyone. Your taking it personally on your own or Rose's behalf is your own business; it was not an attack any more than you (incorrectly) telling me that my reason for reacting a certain way was an attack. If I take it personally and make it mean something about me, it feels like an attack. If I notice that you're just stating your opinion and that doesn't mean anything about me, it doesn't.

But as I say, if you want to be peeved at me because I believe something different that what you believe, you are more than welcome to. It happens all the time!

[ashim]

its nice message and i like your way of putting the in words

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Angela

That is an excellent way of saying it, thank you.

You're welcome

But as I say, if you want to be peeved at me because I believe something different that what you believe, you are more than welcome to.

Thanks

I can still receive your loving hugs, and give you loving hugs you know while I'm feeling peeved at you - I just temporary put aside my peeveness while I hug you .

It happens all the time!

Not from me! I only allow you to be peeved by me once in a great while, it's a special privilege I don't like to give out too much.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by seeker5

I can still receive your loving hugs, and give you loving hugs you know while I'm feeling peeved at you - I just temporary put aside my peeveness while I hug you .

Thank goodness!

Not from me! I only allow you to be peeved by me once in a great while, it's a special privilege I don't like to give out too much.

I am honored.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

Ha! And me? It felt like a big renegociation for me too. Like a final one (called the end).

Yeah, well, it felt like that to me too! Except, it was more like "la fin"!

It took me months to change the way I did, and I clearly told you I had changed a lot and am not the same anymore. You were all cool about that, like "Yeaaah, no prooooblem...!", and then, all of the sudden, zack! We can't be intimate anymore and you won't bother talking about private stuff with me anymore. Basically, it's over.

Yeah, well, I was wrong on saying "no prooooblem" without knowing any of these specific changes! I should have insisted on a 5 page detailed description on each specific changes with full references, appendixes, and cross-references on how it would make things different between us. That way nothing would have caught me by surprise!

[ellie]

Now lets hold hands and hug

[pyrogen]

Not that it's any of my business, but I've been in this boat before, and I really think that when people break up they need to make up an agreement about how to go about it. There needs to be rules of engagement. That my partner and I were able to stay friends during the breakup and actually get back together is because we had rules of engagement and did not get sucked into a pattern of drama.

People I've been able to be friends with, down the road, were only the people with whom there was a breakup where there was an agreed upon standard about how we were to treat each other privately and publicly. Part of being able to stay friends is treating each other with respect and part of this is not bringing out the dirty laundry.

If people who are in a community together break up, they are likely to cause each other the least pain, and are the least likely to end up hating each other, by keeping their breakup business out of the public eye. Sometimes it is impossible to stay in close quarters with someone and act mature because the emotions are so hot. This isn't easy for most people, because by the time one has this degree of self control the universe has a way of choosing that moment to put them in a stable relationship.

Until we reach that place, though, sometimes one party or both need to back away and find another group for a while until the emotions cool off a little and they can treat each other civilly in public. Or at the very least they can confine their issues with each other to private discourse such as email.

I am likely to get flamed for this, but it's been my own experience.

[Rose of Cairo]

Pyrogen, why on earth would you get flamed for this??

I don't get what your point is exactly. Why are you saying this here? Do you think Seeker and I are not treating each other civilly here? Do you think we should not discuss this publicly? Do you perceive this thread as being dirty laundry?

You said lots of general things, but I don't understand how it relates to us. Would you please explain?

[johnbelo]

My bad then Just make sure you are true to your emotions and act when you see something you dislike, unless you deeply know your intervention will not help at this time.

[pyrogen]

Rose of Cairo,

I only responded because it seemed like there was some contention in some of your exchanges. I intentionally made the post general and vague to keep things diplomatic and avoid singling out either one of you. I think I have been on your end of the stick before though in a few breakups, assuming I even understand the situation at all which is unlikely, and a few patterns seemed familiar.

If I'm wrong, I'm sorry, and actually I'll just butt out from here on in. I'm new on the forums and don't know either of you (though I was briefly active under another name, back in May).

[JaredR]

Rose, have you consciously decided to become more insensitive, or did it happen on its own?

[Brutha]

Not that it's any of my business, but I've been in this boat before, and I really think that when people break up they need to make up an agreement about how to go about it. There needs to be rules of engagement. That my partner and I were able to stay friends during the breakup and actually get back together is because we had rules of engagement and did not get sucked into a pattern of drama.

Actually I think the relationship between Seeker and Rose was rather a deep friendship than the kind of relationship you are thinking about (the two live on other continents).

[Rose of Cairo]

True. We're not in a romantic relationship. But we do have an agreement on what to post publicly. I would never post something that Seeker doesn't want me to reveal publicly.

I can see no contention or dirty laundry or lack of civility in what we wrote. If you mean things like this

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

Of course I do, stupid

haven't you seen all the joking and grinning smileys? It might be a good example of my newly acquired insensitivity, but I meant it in a very loving way. I think Seeker and I both have been loving and supportive with each other in this thread.

As for discussing such things privately or publicly, I think this is an individual choice. Maybe for you it works best to keep such things private, but what works for someone might not work for someone else. I for my part learned and gained a lot from openly talking about all this with Seeker and other people on the boards.

Thank you to everybody for that.

PS:

Or at the very least they can confine their issues with each other to private discourse such as email.

Those not interested in our issues are free not to read this thread. I don't think we're deteriorating the quality of the boards in any way by talking about this conflict.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by JaredR

Rose, have you consciously decided to become more insensitive, or did it happen on its own?

It happened on its own. I never intended to become harsh or insensitive or to lose my empathy.

I consciously decided to align more with Power, that's the only conscious decision I made. There were other changes too (diet, hormonal changes...) so I don't know what the reason is.

I did not consciously decide to react spontaneously without considering other people's possible pain, but I found myself making this choice more and more consistently in a natural way.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

Rose of Cairo,

I only responded because it seemed like there was some contention in some of your exchanges. I intentionally made the post general and vague to keep things diplomatic and avoid singling out either one of you. I think I have been on your end of the stick before though in a few breakups, assuming I even understand the situation at all which is unlikely, and a few patterns seemed familiar.

If I'm wrong, I'm sorry, and actually I'll just butt out from here on in. I'm new on the forums and don't know either of you (though I was briefly active under another name, back in May).

Pyrogen,

You're right, if this was a normal airing of bad laundry and fight between two forum members, then it might have been quite nasty and bad and non-productive. Thanks for displaying your concerns and trying to keep this community friendly in the very diplomatic manner of your post.

However, in this situation that wasn't it. Rose did ask for my permission to talk about me in this specific thread and after thinking about it for a minute or two, I gave it to her willingly. I've known Rose for a good while now, so I trusted her completely in starting this thread. Both her and I have been quite open about a lot of our individual personal life issues and problems on here (although Rose has been way more open then I have), so it seemed like a natural extension to talk about something that involved the other one and gain more insight in it.

I feel she did a wonderful job talking about it, and I got a tremendous amount from what she said, and what other people have said. I really also appreciated everyone's hug.

I also admit though I initially misunderstood one of her latest post (which I think you're referring to), but after talking via email with her, I completely got it and found it quite delightful, funny, and endearing

Oh, and my ego got a big kick and enjoyment (even during my moment of deep sadness) out of people referring to me in the third person...!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by seeker5

Oh, and my ego got a big kick and enjoyment (even during my moment of deep sadness) out of people referring to me in the third person...!

Oh, that seeker5 -- can you believe the things he says sometimes?

[pyrogen]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

haven't you seen all the joking and grinning smileys? It might be a good example of my newly acquired insensitivity, but I meant it in a very loving way. I think Seeker and I both have been loving and supportive with each other in this thread.

That explains it, I'm in places with slow connections and I turn pictures off so I don't see those.

The way you two are able to discuss these heavy emotions in public without getting "ugly" is really commendable. Maybe something I should model. In circles I've been in, in the past, "mature" has meant that two people just clammed up and didn't discuss each other around their friends. Nothing get get brought up without drama.

Rose, what do you mean by "aligning with power"?

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

That explains it, I'm in places with slow connections and I turn pictures off so I don't see those.

Aaaahhhhhh, okay! Yeah, without smilies I can understand how what I wrote probably sounds very harsh. Not that it's delicate even with them, but at least I thought the smilies would made the tough love clear.

I guess Seeker's comment on how he "should have insisted on a 5 page detailed description on each specific change with full references, appendixes, and cross-references", without the little tongue sticking face next to it, probably made a very different effect too. He was just teasing me back.

I wasn't aware that some people don't see smilies. I use them a lot, as they help avoiding misunderstandings. But I can understand you now.

The way you two are able to discuss these heavy emotions in public without getting "ugly" is really commendable.

Thanks. That's Seeker's influence. One great thing about him is that even when we have issues, with him it's always possible to talk through them in a very loving and constructive way. I don't know exactly how he does it, but solving the problem goes so smooth that I end up feeling thankful and happy and very close to him. We always find a solution.

Btw, I'm allowed to announce that he's going to give it a try! This means we're staying friends. I'm so happy. Thank you so much to everybody. Who knows if we'd have reached this result without this thread.

So I'm going to ignore his issues and trample his weak points down. But I'll also be there for him to talk about any problems he might have with that, so that he knows I do care about him, even when I'm being an ass. I think he's being very courageous for going for it. We'll see how it goes. Of course he's free to leave if it doesn't work out.

Hugs to everybody!!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

So I'm going to ignore his issues and trample his weak points down. But I'll also be there for him to talk about any problems he might have with that, so that he knows I do care about him, even when I'm being an ass.

So, what's that called: "polyslamory"?

[kpreston]

I've noticed that I've become the same way recently. I've chalked it up to the way people respond to the old me though. My friends used to tell me I'm a "people pleaser," or I "appologize for things that aren't my fault" too often. So I started to change.

I'm still empathetic when I think I need to be, but people's actions have been annoying me much more than usual. It's almost like I assume everything is a cry for help, or compliment fishing, now.

For instance, many of my female co-workers (almost all of them are female), will often pull the "I'm getting so fat," thing on me. While I used to go "no you're not, you look fine," the less sensitive me now goes "then do something about it." I don't say it to be mean... it's the truth and I just don't feel like comforting them anymore. They (and I) both know they've gained 20 pounds, and they're free to come to the gym with me any time they want.

I don't know if it's a good change or not, but it sure does feel good. :-/

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by kpreston

For instance, many of my female co-workers (almost all of them are female), will often pull the "I'm getting so fat," thing on me. While I used to go "no you're not, you look fine," the less sensitive me now goes "then do something about it."

I don't think you're becoming less sensitive by telling the truth.

Telling people what they want to hear is not the same as being sensitive to their feelings. If anything, it is the opposite... just tell 'em what they want to hear, so you can move on with whatever you were doing without a fuss. That's not very sensitive at all!

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by kpreston

For instance, many of my female co-workers (almost all of them are female), will often pull the "I'm getting so fat," thing on me. While I used to go "no you're not, you look fine,"

That's not being sensitive. That's lying and it's dishonest and disaligns yourself and them from truth.

the less sensitive me now goes "then do something about it." I don't say it to be mean... it's the truth and I just don't feel like comforting them anymore. They (and I) both know they've gained 20 pounds, and they're free to come to the gym with me any time they want.

I don't know if it's a good change or not, but it sure does feel good. :-/

I'm sensitive and adaptive to people's weakness, but I'm still focused on being completely truthful. It's normal to feel good when you shift to align yourself with truth in an area, so congrats on being more truthful.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Angela

So, what's that called: "polyslamory"?

Yay, I'm in a polyslamory relationship! Although, Rose has told me she feels completely comfortable in letting me be polyslamed by other people as well, but right now, I don't feel the desire to do so.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by seeker5

Although, Rose has told me she feels completely comfortable in letting me be polyslamed by other people as well, right now, I don't feel the desire to do so.

Ahw, shucks...

[Angela]

Originally Posted by seeker5

Yay, I'm in a polyslamory relationship! Although, Rose has told me she feels completely comfortable in letting me be polyslamed by other people as well, right now, I don't feel the desire to do so.

When you're being slammed by one person, you just want to share it with the world!

Well, at least you're not involved in poly-slime-ory.