PUA Past Haunting Me

[Hsiang-Lin]

I'm having a dilemma guys. I used to be a PUA and went sarging with two of my very good friends. We grew a lot together in the process and bonded well. However, I realized sarging was taking over my life so that when we all graduated this past May, I made a pact to myself that I would get my life back on track.

Thus, I found Steve's website and began to plunge myself into self-discipline and exploring new ideas. I was always a big fan of self-discipline so Steve's ideas naturally hit a ring with me.

Now that it's break, my two sarging friends are urging me to go visit them for this upcoming weekend. I could go to Chicago and one of them is visiting all the way from Denver. The thing is I would like to go and hang out with them. However, I feel my priorities lie elsewhere now. While I still enjoy sarging and talking to women, I feel I could make a better use of my time improving other areas of life such as finance. I feel relationships is not the weakest nor the most urgent aspect of my life.

Also, I'm afraid that if I get back with them, I will be sucked back into the PUA world and lose track of my PD progress. What should I do? Should I not visit or visit and risk stepping into a past that although has had great moments, has also had a deadly addictive feeling?

[Dimitry]

Can you explain this to them in a way that won't hurt them? Say that you're still interested in seeing them but that sarging isn't your priority right now and that you're not interested in it. That you would love to spend the weekend talking about other things that happened in each one of your lives.

[Cron]

What does PUA stand for and what is "sarging"?

[Cron]

Never mind. urbandictionary.com came to my rescue. "Sarging" is the current slang for going out andpicking up women ( or men ). PUA - pick up artist

[Hsiang-Lin]

Yeah, it's something I found out not too long ago as well although like I said, I've mostly stopped doing it so much and focus more on PD (although you can argue in a way that it is the same thing).

Dimitry, I talked with them and I think they can understand. However, I guess the problem is that I'm also having some internal issues with the PUA thing. One part of me wants to figure out what exactly it takes to be so good with women, but the other part wants to improve other aspects of my life. Also, a part of me fears that if I become too good with women, that I will only be able to see them through the lens of PUA and not through the infinite lens that are available in this reality. I also sometimes feel like I dropped it halfway before becoming really good at it. So like I quit. But success as a PUA (to me) is defined in terms of number of fcloses or kcloses or girlfriends, which to me doesn't seem like such a good way to view life. It seems almost suffocating to think that my value is based on the number of women I can get and how hot they are.

So in a way, it's both and internal and external struggle.

[Dimitry]

I'm familiar with the PUA through books such as The Game, reading David DeAngelo and a few other such materials so I have some background info on it.

The problem you have with it is exactly the same one I experienced. To put it simply, most people approached it from a superficial standpoint. It boosted their egos and brought them more sex. Granted PUA "training" does have some PD involved in it, like thinking positive instead of negative, reforming your thoughts, breaking out of your shell etc, that's where it stops.

Like you said, there's a lot more to women and from what I gather by your response to life in general. What I'm going to attempt to do is take the best that PUA has to offer for me and fit it within my value based system. Basically it's all the PD stuff it has to offer while still maintaining the "big picture" for myself.

[Isis Kali]

I'm glad that you're getting away from this. It sounds kinda skeevy and predatory. Guys actually make a numbers game out of us women?

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Isis Kali

I'm glad that you're getting away from this. It sounds kinda skeevy and predatory. Guys actually make a numbers game out of us women?

It can be pointed out that PUA is not necessarily predatory. It's about understanding the psychological give-and-take between two people. But it just so happens that most people who know anything about it use it predatorily.

[Hsiang-Lin]

Dimitry, I think that is a good way to look at it.

I'm torn with the issue of PUA because I'm not sure I understand the true character of top PUAs. While they are like Ph.D.'s in psychology, I'm not sure if they are more in it for the PD or the women (even though they claim they're in it for the PD).

People like Mystery and David DeAngelo are certainly great with women. However, it seems like the PUA world they created judges men based on how good they are with women and I don't feel that encompasses the whole spectrum of life. That is why I felt imprisoned in that model of reality because all of a sudden all my accomplishments and even my hobbies like videogames went down the drain simply because they weren't optimal for picking up women.

At the same time, I wonder how a monk or someone who has lost their reproductive organ would think about PUA. There's just so many different perspectives besides PUA that makes me feel like it's been blown way out of proportion than it really is.

It still haunts me though because try as I might, I still find my self consciously noticing PUA signals from women and men when I talk to them. Although it's nowhere near as bad as when I was fully into it, I hope to one day be at peace with myself and allow these signals simply to pass through me so I can truly connect with people spiritually instead of a pickup game.

[mattsonn]

Are you feeling better about it now that you've voiced your thoughts?

[ethereal]

Have you checked out David Deida's work? "The Way of the Superior Man" is a very good read, and his other books are also very insightful.

He describes the three stages in almost all kinds of development:

1) focus on me, what I can get
2) focus on us, what can we both get and share
3) focus on God/universe/Creator; how do I give myself for the whole universe to benefit, to bring more Love into the world

I have no easy answer or much experience with this matter, but I agree with Deida's model in that we find greater and greater fulfillment by moving away from Stage 1/2 and into Stage 2/3.

It's good that you're reassessing your priorities in life and discovering your deeper purposes; good luck with your search.

[Bene]

You have to ask yourself what you want to do. Don't let the answer be what you SHOULD do or what you're SUPPOSED to do or what is the RIGHT thing to do.

Don't think what the PUA should do... in this case ... how it SHOULD be. How do YOU want to view women? There are teachers out there that make you more congruent with who you are like Juggler.

So what I am saying is be true to yourself. Nothing and I mean nothing is inherently Good or Bad. It is a choice. And if you want to feel good about it... you must come to clear terms with it. You do that by voicing your thoughts, writing them down, mulling over what you want and defining what you want. Like you did a little bit here.

Don't go for All or Nothing. Just become who you want to be.

The more you resist... the more it persists. What you resist persists. So you must bless your past and make peace with it. Live your life the way you want to... according to your preferences. And everything else is just gravy.

[Yynatago]

Originally Posted by Hsiang-Lin

Also, I'm afraid that if I get back with them, I will be sucked back into the PUA world and lose track of my PD progress. What should I do?
...
I'm torn with the issue of PUA because I'm not sure I understand the true character of top PUAs.

Despite the fact I only have this thread to judge you on, I'm absolutely certain that you're committed enough with your new Personal Development path that you'll stay on track even if you do a bit of sarging that weekend.

Maybe I can offer a different perspective on PUA by talking a little about my own PD. When I was in High school and University, my priorities was studying. A couple of years ago, when I finished studying, I noticed my life wasn't as balanced as I wanted it to be. About the same time, I just happen to start getting into Personal Development. So far, I've been tackling my finance, stopping procrastination and becoming physically active. I've recently decided to focus on becoming the guy every girl wants to be with.

Since I'm already on the personal development bandwagon, I'm probably looking through many of the PUA material very differently to the way most guys would. Instead of thinking about how to get in her pants when reading PUA material, I am focusing on improving myself. I think I recall David DeAngelo once saying that he was into Personal Development before becoming a PUA.

Have fun sarging. I think you'll find in light of your new direction of personal development, you'll begin to see all the aspects PUA differently.

Regards,
From Shannan

[Joe826]

This is stuff is easy to get sucked into. I was there for a while as well, to the point where pick-up was the only thing that mattered. As much as that attitude is fostered within the "community", it's really bad for you. Since then I dropped it for several months altogether and have started focusing on improving myself, businesses, etc.

I'm much happier these days. That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to get better with woman, as long as you're centered where you need to be. Happiness will not come from having lots of sex. As long as you realize that, and live from your center, I think you'll be fine. It's more fun that way too, IMO.

[Dating Specialist]

Hi Hsiang Lin

I've some views here.

Originally Posted by Hsiang-Lin

I'm torn with the issue of PUA because I'm not sure I understand the true character of top PUAs.

I'm confused why you need to understand them? I'm not a PUA (obviously ) but to me, PUA is only a label.

You may be using some of their tactics (gaining confidence, thinking positive thoughts, picking up signals etc), but if you're using it for a positive intention to brush up your social skills, then why are you so bothered with what is it called?

For all you want, you can create another term yourself by incorporating the positive parts of PUA with some of your PD stuff and viola!

Why allow yourself to be restricted by the labelling and confine yourself in that inner circle?

Originally Posted by Hsiang-Lin

It still haunts me though because try as I might, I still find my self consciously noticing PUA signals from women and men when I talk to them. Although it's nowhere near as bad as when I was fully into it, I hope to one day be at peace with myself and allow these signals simply to pass through me so I can truly connect with people spiritually instead of a pickup game.

Again, I'm not sure what type of PUA signals from women you're referring to. But if you're talking about picking up the subtle clues that women are constantly giving out through their body language, and you actually are conscious and observant enough to pick them up, that shows you have the potential to be a sensitive man!

Hey women love men who are sensitive! Read this blog entryI recently posted about this trait.

It is a game if you treat it as a game - i.e only with the intention to pick a girl up to test if you're applying the skills correctly, and not with the sincerity that you find her interesting and you like to know her as a friend.

It's all in the mind I feel. Any skills or knowledge can be good or bad, depending on the user's mind and intention.

Not sure if what I said helps to clarify your confusion and dilemma, hope it does! Happy New Year!

[David Mitchell]

This is very timely, because I was looking at some of David DeAngelo's material yesterday. It's actually refreshing to know that you don't have to be rich and powerful to capture the interest of women in general—it's basically what's on the inside (which is shown by your behavior) that matters.

Do I want to be a pick-up artist? No. But I want to be more socially astute in general. I'm not looking for sexual relationships, so I'm trying to figure out what I can use "safely" and what I need to reserve for the woman I will actually pursue.

I'm already making changes to how I carry myself based on what I've read.

[Dimitry]

Originally Posted by David Mitchell

This is very timely, because I was looking at some of David DeAngelo's material yesterday. It's actually refreshing to know that you don't have to be rich and powerful to capture the interest of women in general—it's basically what's on the inside (which is shown by your behavior) that matters.

Do I want to be a pick-up artist? No. But I want to be more socially astute in general. I'm not looking for sexual relationships, so I'm trying to figure out what I can use "safely" and what I need to reserve for the woman I will actually pursue.

I'm already making changes to how I carry myself based on what I've read.

I'm interested, which ideas of his are you actually integrating into your daily life, which are you "saving" for women you pursue and which do you discard in general?

[David Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Dimitry

I'm interested, which ideas of his are you actually integrating into your daily life, which are you "saving" for women you pursue and which do you discard in general?

Well, that is the sticking point. I've been trying to improve my use of my body for years, and much of the advice in that area applies all the time, so that's no problem. The rest of it I haven't really sorted through yet. I'm very much the nice guy, tending towards introversion and self-abasement. I don't know what will and won't be useful to me, and how I want to change.

[Dimitry]

Originally Posted by David Mitchell

Well, that is the sticking point. I've been trying to improve my use of my body for years, and much of the advice in that area applies all the time, so that's no problem. The rest of it I haven't really sorted through yet. I'm very much the nice guy, tending towards introversion and self-abasement. I don't know what will and won't be useful to me, and how I want to change.

Fair enough. Reason I asked is due having read and watched quiet a few of those products myself. Like the typical situation though, I've implemented only a small part (and even with that seen some improvement as I've dated two people this past year, which is better then the years before that heh).

This year, one of the things I want to focus on is developing new relationships and strengthening old ones (though they are pretty strong already, it never hurts to improve). So my dilemma is do I read/watch any of that kind of material again, or should I try and find other sources for this.

[Colm OReilly]

it's basically what's on the inside (which is shown by your behavior) that matters.

David,
That is so true! What's on the inside is reflected through behaviour. But PUA (In it's purest, technique based, McDonaldised form) deals with changing behaviours without doing any inner work. That's a reason why it appeals to so many insecure people. It's a promise of going from zero to hero with very little effort.

Hsiang-Lin,
It sounds like you're concerned about your intentions? If your intentions are to get laid, and use women as little more than a masturbatory tool, of course you're going to feel guilty about it. If you're intentions are to lift both of you up, then that will shine through. If you know a few jokes and interesting tidbits to help her open up, then what's the harm?

Lots of love,
Colm

[David Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Colm OReilly

David,
That is so true! What's on the inside is reflected through behaviour. But PUA (In it's purest, technique based, McDonaldised form) deals with changing behaviours without doing any inner work. That's a reason why it appeals to so many insecure people. It's a promise of going from zero to hero with very little effort.

Surprisingly, "body language" seems to work in reverse as well. The basic posture, chest up/head up/shoulders back, makes me feel much more open and aware. Of course, that isn't a permanent change; I have to train myself to maintain it.

I don't know how much of this stuff you can do without being changed inside, but I'm sure there are those who simply want some validation and do as little as they can to get there.

Originally Posted by Colm OReilly

If you're intentions are to lift both of you up, then that will shine through.

That's the thing. The training is about increasing your apparent social value, and in the verbal area, as I understand it, that's often done by some sort of belittlement. The insults are supposed to be funny, and they demonstrate that you don't idolize the girl, or don't care what she thinks of you. Apparently it's quite effective, and may be more honest than the typical approach. All the same, I'm uncomfortable with a method that appears to tear down rather than build up.

[Dimitry]

Originally Posted by David Mitchell

Surprisingly, "body language" seems to work in reverse as well. The basic posture, chest up/head up/shoulders back, makes me feel much more open and aware. Of course, that isn't a permanent change; I have to train myself to maintain it.

I don't know how much of this stuff you can do without being changed inside, but I'm sure there are those who simply want some validation and do as little as they can to get there.


That's the thing. The training is about increasing your apparent social value, and in the verbal area, as I understand it, that's often done by some sort of belittlement. The insults are supposed to be funny, and they demonstrate that you don't idolize the girl, or don't care what she thinks of you. Apparently it's quite effective, and may be more honest than the typical approach. All the same, I'm uncomfortable with a method that appears to tear down rather than build up.

One of the lessons that I definately agree with though is that you shouldn't act like a wimp in front of a girl just because she's good looking or something. You're priorities and values are still there and if either is being affected, you should do something about it instead of keeping quiet.

[David Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Dimitry

One of the lessons that I definately agree with though is that you shouldn't act like a wimp in front of a girl just because she's good looking or something. You're priorities and values are still there and if either is being affected, you should do something about it instead of keeping quiet.

Yes. This is the good side of the social value training: maintaining respect for yourself no matter the situation.

[and]

PU is not mutually exclusive from PD. Change "PU" label to something else, to make it less cold sounding. Then integrate PU into PD, so PU becomes a small part of PD. Make yourself a list and make PU just a small portion of it and talk to your buddies about doing the same, and use this meeting to discuss it and see how they are working on PD.

For instance:

1 - Career
2 - Education
a- personal reading
b- college
3 - Family
a - parents
b - siblings
4 - Personal Relationships
a - PU
b - Friends
5 - Business
a - come up with biz ideas
6 - Health & Exercise
a - run
b - don't eat at McD
7 - Spiritual
a - meditate

[Bender.PUA]

The most change in my life was becoming a PUA. The knowledge is so usefull in all life that I cant imagine my life without it. Yes there are bad things that come with it, like a wery competative enviroment, but I stayed with it all. Take it all, even the things you dont like, see it from a different perspective, dont miss out on something (for you that are interested but have reserves). Then when you are done, just stop reading the posts, delete all newsletters and forums. Step out. The knowledge stays, it is a part of you now, you are better, you are a new you, case closed. Yes to me also it felt like quitting, betraying myself, my old goals of thisandthat, turning my back on something that has made me better then ever.
After some time the progress of a PUA becomes unidimensional, you keep hitting some weird barrier and try to fix it whit more of "da game". It helped you till now, didnt it? But its not true. Restricting yourslf on a single part of your life, getting it absoloutly perfect means loosing other parts as well, and those cannot be fixed in game. To me it was relationships, my own emotions and stuff like that no amount of game could fix it.
You will detect simmilar patterns in all of the "gurus", propelled by they'r enormous ego they builded a little empire of religion called GAME.
When you detect the Puing became a religion, to you, an answer to all problems in life, its time to stop for good. You learned your lesson, knowledge is yours, get out of school and start living for real.

Fear based thinking?
Zero sum game thinking?
Love or Ego?
Detect those in your game.

Hope this helps.

[Hsiang-Lin]

I guess I'm still not clear on what my issue with PUA is.

On one hand, when I am in the PUA mindset, I feel very soulless and empty. But when I am myself, I am full of confidence and I don't have a care in the world.

I wonder to get a girl, do I really need PUA tactics? I've often thought that even if I appear AFC or stupid in front of her, as long as I am cool with it and I don't let it phase me, I have no need to use routines or whatnot.

I guess it's the way most people define PUA. I feel it is quite negative although I'm sure it's certainly not the case. There are good PUAs out there who do not rely on PUA for their happiness, but I have not encountered any. Every PUA I've seen is either so far entrenched in the mindset or ideology to provide any other ways to look at relationships.

Sometimes I WANT to fail on purpose just because I can. It is so much more free not caring how a girl thinks about me and just ask her out on a date if I feel like it regardless of her IOIs, body language, etc. I feel if it was meant to be, ultimately it's meant to be. Even though you can become very good with women, I don't feel like that is something that will give me true happiness. But at the same time, I feel like I'm missing out on something because I've had 0 girlfriends and relationships thus far.

[Colm OReilly]

Hsiang-Lin,

I do a lot of work with guys who are heavily involved in the community. From your last post alone I'd say the whole PUA thing hasn't helped you much.

BUT, there are resources out there which can help you. I'm guessing your "gurus" have been predominantly MM and RSD?

If you let us know what you want, I could help you by directing you to resources more attuned with your intentions.

Lots of love,
Colm

[Hsiang-Lin]

Hi Colm OReilly,

Thank you for your words. Well, I'd say what I most want is an understanding of myself and others. Not just women, but everyone. So in that sense, I am more interested in overall personal development than only confidence and ability around women.

However, I feel I still do not fully understand the sub-category of dealing with women. While I feel I have matured to a level where rejection does not phase me too much anymore (I performed a series of experiments in which I purposely forced myself into a position of rejection from women to overcome the fear of women), I still feel that I am missing something when someone truly special for me comes along.

While I like the idea of practice and improving my skills with women like a game, I find that the rabbit hole sometimes goes TOO deep and that PUAs start to believe that this is the one TRUE reality instead of simply another model of reality that increases one's chances with women.

Also, I think I have an unhealthy belief that PU tactics work for ALL women. Thus, if I experience any failure or negativity from a woman, I feel it's my fault and I get too hard on myself. I don't as much anymore, but that's how I felt when I was in the PUA mindset. Is it true? I mean Mystery and Style and all those gurus say this stuff works wonders and I've seen it work, yet I feel ultimately that it is simply a stepping stone to your true self instead of required tactics and skills for picking up women.

Like, I feel I know too much when I've experienced too little. I've never held hands with a girl before (in a relationship like setting). I've never kissed a girl. I've done tiny kino techniques and routines, but I don't feel that constitutes a solid relationship.

Yet, at the same time, I feel very happy knowing that I can help others or do what I want (within responsibility) without having others' negativity affect me. For example, in PUA, guys are obstacles in the bars or whatever. I find that in my current model of reality, EVERYONE is a target or someone interesting I want to talk to. I won't mind talking to a guy or a hot girl. My PUA friends always tell me that's just delusion, but I don't feel that way (and if it was true, I don't want to believe it). I feel there's just something wrong with a model of reality if it favors a hot girl over guys or less hot girls.

Ultimately, I feel we are all family and I wish to share a relationship with a girl who thinks the same way instead of mind games where she wants to play hard to get. I'm not afraid to love too much and appear AFC and face rejection. But I guess I also have not met a girl so far who has made me really want to get her.

Yeah, that's a chunk of my history that might be too much hehe, so sorry to everyone who has to read my grumblings :P

[mattsonn]

H-lin, you just need to accept reality as it is. How can we possibly help you until you do that?

[Hsiang-Lin]

mattsonn,

That's what I'm trying to do!!! But being in an extreme AFC state once and having gone to an extreme PUA state has left me confused as to which side I should listen to and where actual reality fits in.

Some people say routines and negs and all that stuff is useful. True. I've used them and seen them work in action. I've also gone totally AFC in front of girls in that I totally chill out and don't give a crap about what they think. I also end up attracting them. ??? WHAT??

There's so many ways to attract women I'm just lost as to what is reality and how the real me fits in.

What's your view of reality on women?