men, stay out of the doghouse

[yossarian]

Just wanted to chime in and point out that this commercial is sexist and demeaning. I think the promotion of a commercial like this is downright ignorant and backwards. I think the same sort of approach that is taken to eliminating racism needs to be taken with these kinds of demeaning commercials and the people who spread them.

You can pass of anything as a joke and make excuses for it that way. But this ad is not about being funny, this ad is about selling a product by reinforcing the idea that a man's value is based on things like the types of gifts he can buy, and that a woman's behavior towards him should depend on the types of gifts she receives.

This ad is wrong on many fronts. Polish, professionalism, and veiled humor does not excuse a degrading and dehumanizing message.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by funchy

So if that ok on these forums, how can a so-absurd-its-funny commercial not be ok? Can I make a fuss each time 'women are just objects to conquer' type posts are made?

Please do. What the hell is the point of 50 years of feminism if you still hold your tongue in the face of sexism?

This isn't about Men vs. Women this is about human rights. This isn't just about gender it's also about race, culture, wealth, and social status.

Are people made equal or aren't they? Are all people worthy of equal respect and dignity or not?

Are you comfortable raising sons in a world where the media shoves ads like this in their face constantly? Is that OK? Is that a standard we are going to allow to flourish while we remain silent in the name of "chilling out"?

When good people are silent the bad people run amok. It's wrong to spread ideas about men as natural predators and women as their prey. It's wrong to sit by silently while others do this without offering counter-pressure. It's wrong to let people spread racist, hateful, dehumanizing, or sexist messages without speaking up and out against it, without pointing out the issue.

I think it shows how truly growth-oriented this site is that you actually have people standing up against this deeply entrenched sexism.

[Elrond]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

I think you're using the wrong word. Being "desensitized" implies that you are no longer sensitive to something... you're at the opposite end of the scale!

And being "not desensitized" implies that you are sensitive to something... and he said that he is not desensitized.

Originally Posted by funchy

So if that ok on these forums, how can a so-absurd-its-funny commercial not be ok? Can I make a fuss each time 'women are just objects to conquer' type posts are made?

Please link to posts where this is said more or less explicitly, and people not reacting to it. And quoting someone that is showing support or are in in the PuA community and concluding that he holds this opinion cause that's how PuA's think doesn't count (there's a lot of stereotypes and disinformation about that on these forums).

[JSB]

This add is amusing, clever, and well-made, but its message is: "Men are clueless dopes, women are greedy whores, and jewelry is the answer to your problems and insecurities."

While I appreciate the presentation, the message repulses me. Its purpose is to fuel the fire of fear and greed.

No thanks!

[Angela]

A friend of mine was given "Buns of Steel" for Christmas by her husband. I laughed and laughed. She didn't think it was very funny.

What's funny is the metamessage behind the gift -- he thinks he's saying, "you're always talking about getting fit, well, here's some help." and she hears "don't you think it's time get that fat ass of yours into the shape of one of these 25 year old's!?"

Same with a vacuum. He thinks, "this is a cool tool for making life easier! It's got TWO bags!" and she hears "you are my housekeeper."

And it's just as funny when it's applied to the jewelry: he thinks: "this will get her off my back and shut her up for awhile" and she hears "he LOVES me!!!"


I sort of love the guy in the doghouse who gave his wife extra RAM memory with a note that said, "Thanks for the memory." I would rescue him from the pound.

By the way, Missing, I actually did laugh out loud when I envisioned your commercial:

Imagine the above commercial, where a guy makes her wife wear one of these collars because she isn't performing certain "wifely duties" up to satisfaction. She's burning his dinner, interrupts him while watching the game, or "isn't in the mood" for sex enough, or whatever. The ad says at the end "women, keep your man happy this x-mas. Spend an extra hour cooking or cleaning, give him an extra blow job. Just a little extra effort might keep you away from the collar!"

[robc]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

There is no division between men and women - only in your heads.

Men are men, women are women - they are not the same.

The problem that exists is that men are no longer behaving as men - the bulk of men out there are starting to behave more like women and unfortunately the bulk of women out there are behaving more like men. The sexual energies have switched and alot of the problems in today's relationship exist because of these changes and no one's ability to question or understand this.

I read a joke somewhere that more women are becoming lesbians today because more women have more male sexual energy in them literally forcing them to adopt a male role in seeking out other women. It was very funny because how can anyone say that and back it up scientifically but when I read it again afterwards it does make you wonder. Have you seen women lately in bars - the sexual energy they are exuding is incredible, you can almost feel the field of energy they emit. They dress for attention and they thrive on the attention they receive, you would almost assume that their self-esteem/their very identity is based on this attention that they receive (which they are orchestrating) - I would go so far as to say they are addicted to it (yes that is a strong statement but if you take the time to watch them and study them, it doesn't become that far-fetched an idea to come up with). I think that's why PUA's are so successful, they are able to identify those women who are very addicted to the attention & external validation from men and they take advantage of it. It may not be a good thing but in the end the PUA is taking advantage of problem that exists that he didn't create, it may not be morally or ethically proper but PUA's don't really worry about that.

Anyways back to the original post, men are different from women, the division does exist - it doesn't have to be as large a division as it currently is but the division certainly does exist. That video (regardless if it's funny or not) just illustrates the differences and I will agree that celebrating this kind of behavior doesn't do anything to change it. Those of you that have very young sons that are pure and currently no nothing of relationships and the differences between men & women will have to start considering one day they will grow up and may be faced with this kind of problem or worse and when it happens to them, the joke won't be as funny anymore.

As for the other point, of course the division exists in our heads, everything exists in our heads, the reality we all live in exists in our heads, the words you currently read exist in your head. Saying that the division only exists in our heads doesn't the make the division any less real.

The sad thing is this change with women & men is just the tip of the iceberg, I think we are only seeing the beginning of something much bigger that will develop in the future. I wonder how many relationships will be destroyed because of this.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Elrond

And being "not desensitized" implies that you are sensitive to something... and he said that he is not desensitized.

Darn, you're right... how did I miss that?

[robc]

Originally Posted by JSB

This add is amusing, clever, and well-made, but its message is: "Men are clueless dopes, women are greedy whores, and jewelry is the answer to your problems and insecurities."

While I appreciate the presentation, the message repulses me. Its purpose is to fuel the fire of fear and greed.

No thanks!

Plus if the answer is buying jewellery to make your wife happy, isn't that a form of manipulation in the end? I buy you this gift and I hope you will continue to like me and not put me in the doghouse? That's a great message to give people: buy her love because if you don't she won't love you.

The sad thing is that alot of people buy into this idea and believe it: both sexes! If he doesn't buy me this, he doesn't love me very much or at all. If I don't buy this for her, she won't love me as much or at all. I need to prove my love for you with gifts and only on special occasions. I guess he didn't love me because he didn't buy me jewellery? What happened to the rest of the year? I guess the rest of the year, you're allowed to act crappy to each other and then at christmas you buy each other a really nice gift, wipe the slate clean for the next year so that you can continue your same crappy behavior.

If you don't think that commercials like this and ideas like this train people into this behavior, think again because it does train people into believing these things to be true. If it didn't work, clever ads like this would never exist.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by robc

Men are men, women are women - they are not the same.

Of course they are not the same, but I disagree with the whole "men don't understand women and women don't understand men, because they're different" stance. That's a pointless load of crap!

The problem that exists is that men are no longer behaving as men

Yeah, now, that you mention it, the cashier did look at me a little funny when I was trying on lipstick at the drugstore...

Seriously, though, I am not seeing the trend you're seeing.

The sad thing is this change with women & men is just the tip of the iceberg, I think we are only seeing the beginning of something much bigger that will develop in the future. I wonder how many relationships will be destroyed because of this.

Aren't you the optimist!

[RT Wolf]

Norah Vincent dressed up as a guy for I think 18 months to experience what it was like. She wrote a book about it called Self-Made Man. It was a very interesting read, I highly recommend it. She makes some interesting points on what women claim to want in men and what they actually want.

robc, can you elaborate on how men and women are supposed to act?

[yossarian]

robc, can you elaborate on how men and women are supposed to act?

Personally I come at everything from two directions, spiritual/intuitive and logical/scientific.

Spiritually speaking, masculine energy is the creative and outgoing energy that seeks to make changes in the world. Feminine energy is the rejuvenating, sustaining, and healing energy that sustains what is there and heals what is wounded.

Obviously both sexes include both energies. You want to balance the yin and the yang in yourself - but balance does not mean androgeny for everyone. Every person has their own "optimal" balance that is unique.

Clearly, hormones affect this balance. Scientifically, androgens equip a person to perform those outgoing, creative tasks. Estogens equip a person to perform the rejuvenation, sustaining, and healing tasks. Both sexes have both hormones! There is a balance each person wants to achieve that is unique to themselves, but in most cases, this balance ends up with males having more androgens and females having more estrogen. This does not always apply - there are always the female body builder types who have a natural balance that is very masculine. That is a good thing - uniqueness makes us all richer.

All throughout human history there have been divisions of labour for the genders. Women are usually involved in sustaining and rejuvenating roles while men are usually involved in creative, outgoing roles. Unfortunately, our culture looks down on feminine energy. The "Feminism" movement itself is the primary vehicle that demonizes feminine energy - "feminism" tells women that their feminine-energy properties are something to be ashamed of and something that they should overcome. Feminism tells women that they should shun the female energies and seek the male ones.

Society also tells men that female energy is bad. Society tells men to shun feminine energy in favor of masculine. Of course there are also some movements that are the opposite - movements that teach men to be feminine and to shun the masculine.

Right now in my generation something very strange has happened. The girls are the most masculine, and the boys are the most feminine. Boys have recognized the value of the feminine and have overindulged in female energies (an imbalance is always bad) while girls have overindulged in masculine energies by making social achievements. Boys right now spend hours and hours rejuvenating themselves and healing wounds with simple pleasures like videogames while girls spend inordinate amounts of time focused on career and relationship achievement with far too little rejuvenation in their lives, leading to an epidemic of female burnout for instance.

Anyway this movement has of course spawned counter-movements. The PUA movement is a movement for men of my generation to reclaim their masculine energy. There are also women's movements that seek to reclaim female energy, for instance there are those girls who crochet coverings for lampposts and things like that - this is activism in favor of the feminine principle. It's a public expression of the divine feminine, the soothing, rejuvenating spirit. I know lots of girls my age who fall into either camp, and many who fall into the middle somewhere.

Right now if you poll the girls of my generation and ask them what they think about "the feminist movement" you have very polarized results. Some are absolutely against it because of the way it has demonized feminine energy. Some are completely for it because of the way it has idolized masculine energy. I don't think the baby boom generation has any idea what is going on with 20-somethings today.

Ultimately the process here is a balancing process. Eventually society will balance and find a stable point that provides for optimal happiness. Of course this balancing doesn't happen on it's own, we are all actors in the process.

[robc]

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by yossarian

This ad is wrong on many fronts. Polish

What's wrong with Polish people you bigot!

[missing]

Originally Posted by Plato

What's wrong with Polish people you bigot!

nothing and if i read that correctly I believe he was extolling the Polishness of the ad as a great virtue. It just wasn't enough to make up for the dehumanizing message.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by missing

nothing and if i read that correctly I believe he was extolling the Polishness of the ad as a great virtue. It just wasn't enough to make up for the dehumanizing message.

He was talking about polish as in the thing you use when dusting. Speaking of which, shouldn't some of you ladies be making use of....

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Plato

Speaking of which, shouldn't some of you ladies be making use of....

Sexist and dehumanizing. The female gender is not made up of your underlings to be ordered around.

I know you probably are just saying that BECAUSE it is sexist and everyone recognizes it as sexist, but given the topic of the thread I figured I should be explicit.

The polish joke was funny though :P

[Plato]

Originally Posted by yossarian

I know you probably are just saying that BECAUSE it is sexist and everyone recognizes it as sexist, but given the topic of the thread I figured I should be explicit.

Yes, I was joking. I read a book on jokes. Apparently what I did there is called meta-bigotry. The joke is against bigots. It's a fine line though.. Some sexist people would laugh because they agree.

The polish joke was funny though :P

Here all week.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Plato

Yes, I was joking. I read a book on jokes. Apparently what I did there is called meta-bigotry. The joke is against bigots. It's a fine line though.. Some sexist people would laugh because they agree.

I'm OT, but would you say that meta-bigotry is the type of joking done on South Park?

What do they call what Steven Colbert does?

I'm fascinated to know that there are names for the different kinds of jokes, because I can tell people why those shows are funny now .

[RT Wolf]

Dissecting a joke is a bit like dissecting a frog. Neither survive the process. - someone.

[missing]

Originally Posted by Plato

He was talking about polish as in the thing you use when dusting. Speaking of which, shouldn't some of you ladies be making use of....

so wait, he meant polished people? Not the European ethnicity? Now I'm confused. Are "polished people" like really shiny and metallic? Like a kind of birth defect, like albinos or people who turn to stone? I used to think that thing was the stuff of myths, like King Midas. Hmm, interesting. Yea, we shouldn't be mocking those people, putting them in the circus to laugh at them like we used to. That's just primitive.

Or did he mean "polished" people figuratively, like successful types who refine their approach to life towards perfection? In which case I think such people should be openly mocked since they likely are too polished to care what others think of them. No harm, no foul.

[missing]

I don't really subscribe to such high conscious snobbism. That is to say, I don't believe that a high conscious person should be "above" things like this commercial or movie violence (mentioned in another thread a little while ago). It's not about looking down on what other people do or enjoy. It is about seeing such things for what they are.

unfortunately I've not shed my ego to the point where I'm willing to eschew elitism in my quest for a raised consciousness. This is "personal development for SMART people", after all. If I wanted to laugh at cheap stereotypes I'd go find a site called "PD for the lowest common denominator".

aside from that, I don't want to look down on what other people enjoy. But if I know somebody who "enjoys" kidnapping children and shackling them in his basement for two hour "whipping" sessions, threatening them with death before cutting them lose, well I'm going to speak up about it. To us this JCPenney spot might be "just a commercial", but to children who don't know better, and whose parents are perhaps not doing their job (and possibly themselves imitating the ad), what we have here is sort of an "emotional whipping" ritual. While society may not condemn it the way they do physical abuse, the effects are similar ie dehumanization. In some ways I find emotional abuse worse because the scars are so much more hidden, abstract and difficult to heal.

Again, a dichotomy I don't subscribe to. I'm a thinking feeler or a feeling thinker if you will. I can't do one without the other.

well I did say "more of" so I certainly can do plenty of both. For the most part though I'd say we are an emotionally closed society. Otherwise I doubt we'd be able to laugh so easily at disturbing stuff. Though actually, I'm quite capable of closing myself emotionally and laughing at anything. But I can just as easily open up and be very disturbed. I don't see how anybody who truly feels emotion will find dehumanizing material "funny", you simply cannot have your cake and eat it too. I'm sure some will disagree and IMO, it's a cop out. "Lighten up" to me, is a code word people use to evade the tough situations that life presents for us.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I'm OT, but would you say that meta-bigotry is the type of joking done on South Park?

What do they call what Steven Colbert does?

I'm fascinated to know that there are names for the different kinds of jokes, because I can tell people why those shows are funny now .

Yeah, South Park is meta-bigotry. Don't know Colbert.

Originally Posted by RT Wolf

Dissecting a joke is a bit like dissecting a frog. Neither survive the process. - someone.

-E.B. White.

I'm not some super memory man. I've got the book in front of me.

Originally Posted by missing

Or did he mean "polished" people figuratively, like successful types who refine their approach to life towards perfection? In which case I think such people should be openly mocked since they likely are too polished to care what others think of them. No harm, no foul.

I don't even know now. ........

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by missing

"Lighten up" to me, is a code word people use to evade the tough situations that life presents for us.

Yeah, we certainly don't see eye to eye on this. Which is okay. I don't think one view is more valid than the other - just different.

I don't equate my enjoyment of "low brow" humor like, say, South Park with the evading life's problems. Quite the contrary, such jabs at life often prompt discussion about how things should be (much like this one), which I think is ultimately to the benefit of us all. More laughter, less problems - that's my theory.

[lifetimelearner]

[QUOTE=JimOfferman;280210]Yeah, we certainly don't see eye to eye on this. Which is okay. I don't think one view is more valid than the other - just different.



you put that more eloquently than I was going to in my post

[missing]

[QUOTE=lifetimelearner;280229]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

Yeah, we certainly don't see eye to eye on this. Which is okay. I don't think one view is more valid than the other - just different.

you put that more eloquently than I was going to in my post

oh come on, nothing wrong with a little ineloquence here. What are we, high brow snobs?

For the record I don't see my viewpoint as superior either. What works for me might be completely wrong for Jim Offerman, which is cool. Mostly I'm railing against the cultural paradigm of telling people to deny their pain and "lighten up". I think it's doing lots of spiritual damage to us en masse and we are collectively refusing to adequately deal. Which will only serve to propagate the pain, and perhaps hasten our demise.