What about a Sugar Daddy?

[Brutha]

In that case, his gifts to you are just a small gift from his emotional perspective. You might think of it as "using" him because you come from a scarcer mindset, but it isn't that way to him at all. To him its like a regular guy giving you the quarters in his pocket.

But in the end it matters to her. Accepting the money will probably have an influence on her.

[jaamkie]

I don't think relationships need to be 50/50 in all ways- most people wouldn't call a stay-at-home-mom a mooching prostitute, though she might not be bringing in any income. I think once you're committed to a long-lasting relationship with someone, there's just one overall balance of contributions to the relationship that needs to be maintained.

What bothers me here is that you sounded so uncertain about it, worrying about using him, which suggests to me that you feel that overall there isn't an equal balance in the relationship, and so you're worrying about when and how the debt will be paid, whether it will be paid in control or in loss of trust or something else.

I guess I think, if you really loved the guy and put your relationship with him above your short-term concerns and deprivations, your worries would overrule the money, and you'd work yourself to the bone to stay independent. So the fact that you're deciding not to do so... would tend to suggest you don't care that you're taking more than you're giving and that the relationship will eventually end because of it.

[Vie]

Hm, a lot of important points there.

First, it is very true that I speak almost exclusively of myself in the posts. I think it is mostly because I don't know what he really feels, he will not let me in so easily. Roughly he fears to be abused again. His last girlfriend(s) cheated on him while he was providing a luxury lifestyle to them. One he told me about; he caught her with another man while he paid for everything, litterally everything for years. After the breakup she would still be requesting his money, which he wouldn't give her (or at least stoped after a while, it's not clear). She then deposited false accusations on him of violence and abuse, so he ended up spending a week in jail before he was cleared of all accusations. He told me also about a recent phase he went through where he had lost complete trust in women and used his money to get into their bed and use them. As he said himself :"as a heartless bastard". He told me about that the night he came to my place and we spent hours and hours talking. He opened up then as I never saw him before, I am really glad for this.
His job is now taking him back to LA, where he used to work. He told me he enjoyed being there very much cause he felt free and could think about himself. I think he feels more than trapped in his family life, even if his parents are mastly out of the country he lives with his older brother. He wants to move back in California soon, probably in the upcoming months. One of his good friends is moving there also and he asked me if I wanted to come along, since he claims to be attached to me.
Since the very beggening of the relation, he has been very detached. I can feel that he has a hard time trusting me and I can understand that easily, considering the type of girls he has been with and him growing up in a muslim country (you can't avoid seeing the cultural difference upon relationships). My impression is that he feels very close to me, and experiences something different than what he is used to. I mean, I am aware of the image I project on this forum and even if it sounds contradictory, I am not the kind of girl that would pay 300$ for a handbag. To me it sounds so incredibly silly. I would never do this, specially not with someone else's money. After we spent the night talking, he told me he had never experienced something like that in a relationship. Sounds wierd to me, cause I feel that what love is all about.
So now he feels unsure. He is confused about me. He says that he is attached to me, and I can read that he means "unexplanably attached". We get along well, he says he is scared cause he doesn't know where this is going. to that I answered I didn't know either, that I couldn't garantee I would never do anything hurtful and neither could he, but I told him I though he was worth it, worth taking the risk. He agreed but he still sounds insecure.
I told him recently to decide whether he wanted to help me or not, so that we could get that part out of the way and move on with the relation whatever choice he makes. It has been bothering me lately that he kept on promising things (like spending time together) and didn't deliver, I don't mind about recieving help as much as I mind about being told something false. I do understand he is going through an incredibly busy phase, we barely see each other once a week and it kills both of us. Today he told me he could'nt believe how patient I was. I told him I need only to know he is still breathing and that some time will come when we will be able to see each other more ofter. I wait as he requires me to.
We were supposed to see each other today but he had to rush to Malibu. He might be moving there very soon. He is happy though cause there he will have more stability and will be able to take care of himself better. It give him hope and makes him happy. Now we wondered what was going to happen with our relation. Neither of us want to end it, but the circumstances have been unfavorable all along. I told him that whatever official status we give it, I would be thinking of him and whishing we could be together and I mean it.
I asked him to take a decision about whether or not he would help me. He claimed to want to help for weeks but has shown little concern. (if you though I was covered in gold, you were wrong.) So I told him that it was hurtful for both of us for it to be so unclear and undefined, and that it would be relieving if made a descision. So he asked about me and my situation and I answered honestly (I'm not talking further about it now). He seemed to understand roughly and said he wanted to help. Though he didn't sound 100% determined. I don't wish to recieve his help if he is not fully into giving it, so as soon as I have to chance I'll answers his questions comprehensively so he at least feels he has all the data and an understanding on the situation.
this is were we stand for now. I too am really attached to him. I don't see him as I used to, he seems to be much more handsome and I like him more and more as I get to know him.
I think what he fears most is that he would give and not recieve. I too seems to doubt about it, but I know I cannot rely on me for that, cause I always doubt about myself and my abilities even though life proves me wrong most of the time. there is a sub-issue here, I am fighting with myself to get to know whether or not I can offer him something very valuable: love. Part of me goes: no way you are a ****ing ♥♥♥♥♥ you'll use him withouth even noticing and throw him away afterwards. the other part goes: "You are a concerned and devoted person, you know it. You are way to sensitive to used him heartlessly, you care about him and want him to be happy." In my head is happening something similar than in this forum, part is saying: alright, as long as you stay true and do your best, and the other part is saying: no way you prostitute.
I do not want to doubt of myself anymore: all my problems come from that part of me treating me like dirt, It got me into ♥♥♥♥♥♥ situation along the years, and now into scarcity. So I'm not a ♥♥♥♥♥ or any kind of prostitute. In case you wonder, we had sex on something like the 14th date, and once since, that's it and I include every sex thing possible (exept kissing) It's really not what holds the relation. Also I met him through other friends and didn't know he was that rich before dating him a few times. (at first I just couldn't believe it.. I still have trouble really realizing it)
What I really fear to say because I don't want to be judged is that I believe that if he helps me with his heart, it will make him happy, and me too.
Funny though how he really needs to move to California, it's causing him trouble to be millionaire while most people he hangs around with are other students. I am very happy for him cause it has been his dream for very long to live with a bunch a friends and close ones. He talked to me about buying a house and having all his loved ones and relatives living in the same neighborhood, it's his dream, that's what he is saving for. With or without me, he seems to be on that way now

[jaamkie]

It is good to see you putting thought and openness and honesty into your relationship decisions, I sympathize with how difficult it is to be objective and judge your own motivations and probable future actions, and I'm sorry that we on this forum are so detached from the situation and can only judge based on our interpretation of what you post here.

I also think the most important thing you've said on here is "I don't wish to recieve his help if he is not fully into giving it". Right now all you know is that he's uncertain about what he wants. I understand how uncertainty over your finances and plans can be even more damaging and frustrating than the certainty of no help, because you feel trapped, like you can't move ahead until he gives you a decision. Probably this is part of what makes the situation so painful- that even in this, you're waiting, relying, on him in order to plan your own life- and it never feels good to be dependent on someone for something they're not ready to give you.

Hopefully you can keep the open honest dialog with him and say to him what you've said here- that you don't want to use him, that you're frustrated to be always waiting and depending on his emotions and choices, but that you also value the relationship too much to give it up just because it isn't immediately easy and clear.

Knowing nothing about your circumstances it is hard to offer any other specific suggestions, but I wonder if it would be possible to move out to California with at least some independence- perhaps living a spartan lifestyle for awhile, perhaps not exactly living right in Malibu, perhaps having to work long hours instead of spend the time with him, but at least in control of your own life and not placing yourself in the miserable position of being a burden he's not sure he wants to carry. Do you have other goals/ambitions aside from your relationship, and would moving to California ruin them or could it open up new opportunities? If you decided to go with him, and then everything fell apart, what would you do? would still be glad to have moved there?

[yintherapy]

I personally wouldn't feel comfortable accepting help in this situation, as it was described.

Here's what I would do, though. I would ask him to give me a no or low interest loan, with very lenient terms. I'd go to a lawyer or accountant with him and put it all in writing, and sign a contract. That way, he's still helping you, but it's not a complete handout because you're definitely going to pay him back (which any decent person should try and do anyway). That's just me though =)

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by yintherapy

you're definitely going to pay him back (which any decent person should try and do anyway).

I know many more-than-decent people who no longer believe in the concept of debt or owing anyone anything. They are very free to give what they have, and others in our community are free to receive -- or the other way around. It works this way because we've agreed for it to - at this point, it wouldn't work for say, the phone company, for example. But in our circle, that's how it works.

[yintherapy]

Originally Posted by carenkh

I know many more-than-decent people who no longer believe in the concept of debt or owing anyone anything. They are very free to give what they have, and others in our community are free to receive -- or the other way around. It works this way because we've agreed for it to - at this point, it wouldn't work for say, the phone company, for example. But in our circle, that's how it works.

I'm not talking about debt in particular, I'm talking about the idea that if things are given to you, it's decent to try and pay it back, or pay it forward--rather than hoard all the gifts that are given to you and never seek to give. Someone who takes, takes, takes and never gives is not decent, IMHO.

In this case in particular, I'd feel most comfortable with a formal loan arrangement, but I'd be open to other ideas, and I'd look for creative ways to keep the generosity flowing, you know? Even if it's a personal promise to myself that if someone gives me the money to start a business and I succeed, I'll try to help someone else start a business.

[pyrogen]

I disagree that you're playing him. What you ARE doing is taking what he's offering because it's the only way he knows how to relate to a woman, and relating to him that way. There IS potential to deepen the relationship beyond this so you can both grow and enjoy each other, IMHO.

My suggestion is to treat him like he's any other guy you're dating.

I'm guessing that like a lot of successful guys, he spent time developing that side but didn't learn to relate to women *without* having money. He gets close by offering his financial stability/sugar daddy prowess, because it's the only way he knows. It's the flip side of a woman who offers herself as a sex object because she doesn't know how else to relate to men, then feels used. Relationships are a separate skill set from being rich and some people never get that. But he may also see himself as making an investment that may one day pay off, and like all investments it has risks. If he sees you as a potential life partner, it is an investment for him to help you with things in your life that he can afford to help you with.

Also... how would you feel if you were with a wealthy man, and he DIDN'T offer to pay your debts (which were pocket change to him)?

So, my suggestion is, go out, enjoy yourselves. It doesn't mean you have to go dutch all the time and match his income. You can match his energy.

Reciprocate with what you *can* manage (while being careful not to r give more energy to the relationship than he is giving). You can give back in return what he's giving if you think of his giving of money-related stuff as "romantic/interested energy" instead of as money. You can give back that same energy. It sounds also like he is offering "nurturing" energy with it rather than "spoiling" energy (is offering to pay your tuition rather than offering to buy you expensive gifts).

Examples: romantic dinners at home, reading to each other, taking him on surprise but free/inexpensive dates such as going out to throw snowballs or spontaneous ice cream cones in the park, baking bread together then eating it on a picnic, or making a date to take a one or two day class together. Money is his way of giving energy to the relationship, and you can reciprocate with the same energy in other ways. You'll also be giving him examples of how to romance you without the money.

If he's like most guys he will appreciate these kind of gestures. It's the women who just let the guy do *everything* and don't do anything in return, that are playing these kind of guys.

And just because he can afford to go to operas and drive everywhere, doesn't mean you should stop going to the movies and stop going on long walks.

I disagree with the idea of formal loan arrangements. If something is offered in love, it should stay in that spirit. The exception is if you're both poor and getting the money back or not is something that will make or break you... that's the case with my partner and I, and why we do loans.

If someone holds over your head what he seemed to freely offer out of love, then that's a sign he's someone you don't want to be with.

I just wish I didn't have to get married to learn that; my ex husband paid for the wedding, but it wasn't in a loving and generous spirit. His family was better off than mine, expected a big wedding, and resented that my family wasn't paying. My ex offered to pay, but then held it over my head the rest of the marriage - not surprisingly we were only married for a year after that.
But there were other signs that he had this mentality if I'd only looked: he'd been hoarding that money for about seven years, refusing to touch it, even to buy a house with. Then he blamed the wedding for why we weren't buying a house.

I went off on a tangent, but I'm just pointing out that someone who'd hold any gift over your head and has a scarcity mentality themselves, probably isn't a good choice of mate whether they're rich or poor.

[Silent Lucidity]

Originally Posted by Vasilisa

Vie, I'm with you on this!
Why do people become so frustrated when a girl meets the guy who wants to help her out financially? Weren't men created as providers, hunters, defenders? It's just natural that a man wants to take care of somebody he loves.
As for control issue - there are a whole bunch of guys who don't want to spend money on their girlfriends but at the same time want to have control over their life. So...

ah yes... I've been in both, and I can say as long as there is really love there, than it's okay to accept someone's help...

do you think money is the only thing of value? Do you thing that by spending money on you, that you have nothing to give him in return? Your time, your spirit, your energy, talking, laughing, your companionship?

It's so strange in our society, we women are taught how horrible it is to accept energy from the universe, in whatever form...

...just let go of that...

if you fall out of love with this man, and can't fix it, than no, don't use him, let him go. Work on your career, your buisness, be true to yourself, be sincere.... I'm sure if it changes, you are mature enough to talk to him about it. You seem very reflective already, and not one to use anyone.

this is one of my own lessons I'm working so hard on, so it really resonates with me... the ability to accept love in different forms....

I was with someone 'financially abusive' for three years. He'd take me to hawaii with his family and I was practically starving (I'm skinny ok??). He asked me to give up my job to travel with him, and once I agreed, he said I wasn't responsible... He wanted me to 'prove' that I wasn't in it for his money, by denying basic necessities of life (no I don't mean Gucci, I mean food, medication, contact lens cleaner, and maybe food other than McDonalds). The fact is I miss him everyday but I had to leave, as I could provide for myself better on a low admin-wage than he would as a husband with a decent nest egg...., it's more complicated than that but the point is:

You'll find men and women who are generous with time and rescources are generous with their hearts also. I read this once and now that I've experienced a better situation once again, I'm starting to believe it.

[Vie]

Thanks for you replies, they express what I feel accurately

Originally Posted by pyrogen

If someone holds over your head what he seemed to freely offer out of love, then that's a sign he's someone you don't want to be with.

Originally Posted by Silent Lucidity

He wanted me to 'prove' that I wasn't in it for his money, by denying basic necessities of life (no I don't mean Gucci, I mean food, medication, contact lens cleaner, and maybe food other than McDonalds). The fact is I miss him everyday but I had to leave, as I could provide for myself better on a low admin-wage than he would as a husband with a decent nest egg.....

These quotes show perfectly why I dumped him two weeks ago, as he offered me to move out in Malibu with him. It was not impulsive though, I had though it over many times. I went for a coffee with him to ultimately talk about it, I had a shirt he lended to me in a bag, as the cellphone and charger (he had two). While we spoke, for about 45 minutes, he seemed impatient and unniterested, argued a lot. At the end he was plain insulting. He angrily agreed that yes maybe we should let it go (but you know those kind of people that get REALLY mad but still pretend they are not) So I let him think he left me, if it makes him happy. He had no respect for me whatsoever. I barely saw him once a week and half the time he would ditch me last minute. He would guilt me into lots of negative feelings (including that I wanted to use him, he made me doubt about that) It's not that he didn't have time, he would go out with his buddies a lot or hang around on msn plenty. Also he kept on lying to me, he would promise to do thing he wouldn't and take me for the biggest idiot ever (which is kinda funny though, he really went out of his way to make his lies seem believable, while I wondered where he would stop.)
The day after I recieved a discouraging email of so called apologies to which I didn't respond and don't intend to. It's basically asking for ANOTHER chance. As if I had'nt been patient enough over the last months already. If he can't afford to be true and nice, he can't afford me.

I really have a problem with relationships these days. I wonder what's wrong in my perception to attract such destructive relations over and over..

[pyrogen]

Originally Posted by Vie

I really have a problem with relationships these days. I wonder what's wrong in my perception to attract such destructive relations over and over..

How not to attract the same thing over and over?

You can start off by not affirming yourself that you're attracting the same thing over and over. You can say, "In the past, I had a problem with relationships and attracted destructive relationships."