I am giving up on male friends

[angies]

Can women and men be friends?

This men and women business is way too complicated. I mean not with your SO but with other men. I can never get the balance right.

Guy #1. become friend after his persistent effort. I started to enjoy his daily conversation and company, then we get a touch over friendly in our conversation. Pooof he gone ... five days with no chat. Took me a while to get over it as I missed him a fair bit. After a long period, we happen to work on the same project so the friendly conversation start again, but this time I am being cautious and hold back so I don't appear to be over friendly to scare him off. It seems the more I hold back the more friendly he gets as if he trying to win me back. But as I became a touch more friendly he sort of pull back. What the hell is going on with this constant tug of war?

Guy #2. friend of friend. Always appear friendly to me at work although I never pay much attention to him. We went out for drinks one day and had a really good time. After a few drinks we get a bit friendly nothing serious just a touch here and there and mucking around. The next day at work, I was being more friendly smiley, saying good morning etc, thinking that after the night before, may be we are now friends, no he was very cold toward me for reason unknown to me. So I don't bother to say hello back any more. So what the hell is going on with the night before? how can a guy be so friendly one night and then don't want to be friend after?

Guy #3 Again become friends after his persistent effort. The we become pretty good friends, working together, go to gym together. Next thing he chasing after another other girl and completely ignore me. I would be lucky to get a hello once a day. What is going on here? Why can't we continue to be friends while he is chasing the other girl? I don't really care about that since we are only friends?

Guy #4 meet for the first time a work function. Had a few drinks and dance. He spent the night telling me how hot I look although I told him repeatedly that I already have a bf. Should I turn a cold shoulder next time we meet because he told me how he felt that night or can we be friends? I don't know if it is a good idea to be friends after all the things he said to me on the night.

Oh why is it so complicated to have male friends. I think men and women are not meant to be friends. The physical things always get in the way. And the constant power struggle is so tiring. What have I done wrong?

[SupersecretIdentity]

At first glance, the thing that really stood out to me, is that you are treating these guys like girlfriends. I'm sure its probably pretty natural for you to get touchy with your girlfriends, but to guys that has a COMPLETELY different connotation. The vast majority of guys do not touch each other unless it's a handshake, high-5, or the very occasional man-hug. When you touch a guy, he immediately starts thinking you are attracted to him, which either engages his animal brain or weirds him out because he sees you as just a friend, or is already involved with someone else.

It's totally fine to have male friends as a female, or female friends as a male, but you have to respect the gender differences. Pretending they don't exist is a recipe for disaster. I have plenty of female friends, but when I hang out with them, it's to hang out. We don't have a cry/big emotional session about x, and we don't talk about picking up chicks/lifting/etc. We keep our friendship on common interests. You also need to be very clear about the nature of your friendship. If you are strictly platonic friends, act like it. If you are just there to hang out, that's fine too. The last thing you want to do is send mixed signals (and getting touchy one night then just acting like buddies the next is sending mixed signals).

Now, it might just be my experience, but I find that the type of friendship usually takes on the role of female friendships OR male friendships, whichever tends to dominate. Usually, the male-friendship style seems to dominate. I don't know if this is just the type of girls I choose to hang out with or me projecting a stronger frame, but the vast majority of girls I hang out with are "one of the guys." There are probably plenty of more feminine guys that can be "one of the girls" but it will probably be far less common.

[MonkeyFace]

Originally Posted by angies

Guy #4 meet for the first time a work function. Had a few drinks and dance. He spent the night telling me how hot I look although I told him repeatedly that I already have a bf. Should I turn a cold shoulder next time we meet because he told me how he felt that night or can we be friends? I don't know if it is a good idea to be friends after all the things he said to me on the night.

I have a girl friend (not a girl-friend; a friend who's a girl) and she knows that I think she's hot. It hasn't done anything to our friendship, if that helps.

[spookie149]

Do you think these men have been using the "friends" term as a way of getting close to you before asking you out?

[Elrond]

Originally Posted by SupersecretIdentity

When you touch a guy, he immediately starts thinking you are attracted to him, which either engages his animal brain or weirds him out because he sees you as just a friend, or is already involved with someone else.

OR

if a guy has got a little experience with other females,

he's already realized that women often are affectionate and "touchy" and that a woman touching him doesn't need to have any sexual/romantical intent behind it.

[Xanafax]

I - being a boy - have mostly female friends. I have ooh one proper male friend and three close female friends.

It's not a problem to me, I am attracted to them. I don't think I would be friends with them if I wasn't. However it's not a sexual attraction, it's an attraction to their brains, their humour, quirkiness and general likeability.

We talk about the most lurid and obscene things, we stray into the over friendly many times, but it never damages what we have, it strengthens it.

I know I have at least two of these four friends for life.

I see it as a most natural thing. Our differences are not amplified, they are connected and intertwined to create a friendship group that is quite perfect.

[funchy]

None of those situations sound like friends. Flirting and friends usually don't mix. Can you be giving them mixed signals?

[SupersecretIdentity]

Originally Posted by Elrond

OR

if a guy has got a little experience with other females,

he's already realized that women often are affectionate and "touchy" and that a woman touching him doesn't need to have any sexual/romantical intent behind it.

Touching is one of those things that mean different things to different sexes. Girls use touch as a form of communication, whereas guys use touch as a form of dominance or sexual intent. Touch isn't the only thing that is interpreted differently between the sexes. Guys use teasing and competition for bonding, while girls use those kinds of actions towards other girls that they really don't like. Guys like to do things in each other's company (watch the game, have a beer) while girls like to share each other's company.

Before anyone goes off citing their exceptions, obviously this is not a comprehensive list nor does everyone conform to every part. This is a very generalized list of examples to show common differences in social interaction. In a perfect world, men and women can communicate just fine. However, we live in the real world and have to learn to work with these differences. Refusing to recognize or act on these things is just going to result in social confusion.

[angies]

The vast majority of guys do not touch each other unless it's a handshake, high-5, or the very occasional man-hug. When you touch a guy, he immediately starts thinking you are attracted to him, which either engages his animal brain or weirds him out because he sees you as just a friend, or is already involved with someone else.

So rule number 1. No touching with male friends?

All my male friend know that I am in a relationship. Because we are work coleagues, most of our conversation are work and gym. Occasionally we talk about each other personal life but that is mainly due to my prompting. On the rare occasion when we are out for drinks the conversation can get a bit of adult nature. But we all know where we stand with our friendships. And don't get me wrong I find my male friends attractive, and we do muck around a bit. Note that this is different from flirting. May be that is where I gone wrong. The line is not clear and the guys get confused.

[Elrond]

Originally Posted by SupersecretIdentity

Touching is one of those things that mean different things to different sexes. Girls use touch as a form of communication, whereas guys use touch as a form of dominance or sexual intent. Touch isn't the only thing that is interpreted differently between the sexes. Guys use teasing and competition for bonding, while girls use those kinds of actions towards other girls that they really don't like. Guys like to do things in each other's company (watch the game, have a beer) while girls like to share each other's company.

Before anyone goes off citing their exceptions, obviously this is not a comprehensive list nor does everyone conform to every part. This is a very generalized list of examples to show common differences in social interaction. In a perfect world, men and women can communicate just fine. However, we live in the real world and have to learn to work with these differences. Refusing to recognize or act on these things is just going to result in social confusion.

It doesn't matter jack sh!t what men and women do differently in this case: because anyone with the slightest social awareness (like me) expects different responses and reactions from interacting with men/women/young/elderly/etc. Also anyone with the slightest social awareness (like me) knows that when a girl/woman that you are friendly with touches you, it does not have to imply sexual intent (or intent for domination???), it can just mean that she is friendly and likes you.

You talk about the real world, well, look at it: men don't hug eachother much, but they do hug women a lot more, like when saying hello/goodbye. Oh, they are probably trying to send a signal that they want to sex them/dominate them. Or, that they simply interact differently with women than with men.

And as far as posting exceptions... suffice it to say that your "generalized list" is far beyond generalized. It doesn't even dignify a response.

[angies]

Originally Posted by Xanafax

I - being a boy - have mostly female friends. I have ooh one proper male friend and three close female friends.

It's not a problem to me, I am attracted to them. I don't think I would be friends with them if I wasn't. However it's not a sexual attraction, it's an attraction to their brains, their humour, quirkiness and general likeability.

We talk about the most lurid and obscene things, we stray into the over friendly many times, but it never damages what we have, it strengthens it.

I know I have at least two of these four friends for life.

I see it as a most natural thing. Our differences are not amplified, they are connected and intertwined to create a friendship group that is quite perfect.

Thats what I like to do with my male friends. May be it will take a long time to build the trust and understanding.

[MyEyeIsOpen]

I'm curious about what you mean by "mucking around"?

It seems like you're describing going out with a guy, while you have a boyfriend, drinking, flirting, and making out, then wondering why they don't want to be your "friend." Is that all accurate?

[RRR]

It doesn't sound like you have many guy friends and you don't seem to be trying very hard to keep them around. One lack of a proper greeting is enough to send you into never trying for him again. 2 of your guy friends are only your friends because of their "persistant effort". And when that effort stops all of a sudden you can't be friends with them? Where is your effort to get what you want?

[SupersecretIdentity]

Originally Posted by Elrond

It doesn't matter jack sh!t what men and women do differently in this case: because anyone with the slightest social awareness (like me) expects different responses and reactions from interacting with men/women/young/elderly/etc. Also anyone with the slightest social awareness (like me) knows that when a girl/woman that you are friendly with touches you, it does not have to imply sexual intent (or intent for domination???), it can just mean that she is friendly and likes you.

You talk about the real world, well, look at it: men don't hug eachother much, but they do hug women a lot more, like when saying hello/goodbye. Oh, they are probably trying to send a signal that they want to sex them/dominate them. Or, that they simply interact differently with women than with men.

And as far as posting exceptions... suffice it to say that your "generalized list" is far beyond generalized. It doesn't even dignify a response.

I'm glad that you have social awareness, it gives you the basic ability to interact with different social groups appropriately. Just like you pointed out, you do get different responses from men, women , old, and young. And that's the point. Just because you have an understanding of how the world works does not grant you the grace to ignore those social norms. And I agree with you, I'm not saying that when a woman touches a man she's saying she wants him. The point I'm trying to get across is that male friends tend to not touch each other. Understanding, and more importantly, behaving accordingly with these social differences is a key component of your social awareness. I wasn't trying to pigeon hole males and females into exact roles, I was merely pointing out very general but common differences in how genders interact.

Before we get into a nitpicking contest, let's try to keep responses to comments within the implied context. I don't think you can seriously believe I am suggesting every physical contact between men and women has to be significant. Obviously greetings tend to differ, and there will be some contact anyway. Men don't touch each other much, but they don't avoid contact like the plague. The OP made it sound like they were getting touchy in the context of playing with each other's hands/putting their hand on the person's thigh, stuff like that. Those kinds of actions ARE sexually charged for men, especially men that don't have a lot of female friends. I have plenty of female friends, and they are not touchy with me at all. I know it would definitely strike me as off if one of them began getting touchy in the way I assume the OP is referring to.

Of course, without more insight into what the OP meant, it is really just speculation.

[SupersecretIdentity]

Originally Posted by angies

So rule number 1. No touching with male friends?

All my male friend know that I am in a relationship. Because we are work coleagues, most of our conversation are work and gym. Occasionally we talk about each other personal life but that is mainly due to my prompting. On the rare occasion when we are out for drinks the conversation can get a bit of adult nature. But we all know where we stand with our friendships. And don't get me wrong I find my male friends attractive, and we do muck around a bit. Note that this is different from flirting. May be that is where I gone wrong. The line is not clear and the guys get confused.

I'm not sure what you mean by mucking around, and saying it as a steadfast rule "no touching" is a little extreme. But you need to be aware of what kind of messages you may be inadvertently sending, or at very least, how it could be perceived. For example: hugs, handshakes, playful punches/slaps, stuff like that is not a big deal. On the other hand, stuff like hand on the knee, holding hands, grabbing their arm, basically types of touching that can be perceived as flirty, have a great chance of becoming awkward. I can only assume based on your description the latter is closer to what kind of touching you are doing. Even if you have the most benign intentions, guys are socialized and conditioned to view that kind of sensual touching as something you do towards someone you are interested in. I don't have any of this interaction with my female friends, and would definitely be weirded out a bit if I did. If our socially aware friend finds no fault in this, I will gladly concede the point. Just offering a guy's perspective.

[Elrond]

Originally Posted by SupersecretIdentity

I don't think you can seriously believe I am suggesting every physical contact between men and women has to be significant.

It sounded like you thought that more or less every contact will be percieved by the man as significant:

"When you touch a guy, he immediately starts thinking you are attracted to him, which either engages his animal brain or weirds him out because he sees you as just a friend, or is already involved with someone else."

The OP made it sound like they were getting touchy in the context of playing with each other's hands/putting their hand on the person's thigh, stuff like that. Those kinds of actions ARE sexually charged for men,[...]

I can believe that.

[angies]

When I say touchy I mean playful punches, smacks on the hand, taps on the shoulder. When I say mucking around, I mean verbally, we talked about adult topics like how to make love to a woman, what does one night stands mean for a guy etc. the conversation can get a bit of adult nature but always in a group conversation never one on one. One on one sometimes we can be a little bit flirty like I would say "Hi handsome" and he would say things like "Seeing you make it worth while to come to work" etc but we do not make out or kiss or have sex.

[angies]

I never go out one on one with any of my male friends. Drink sessions are rare occasions, always in groups and only for special occasions like farewell dinners, xmas parties etc. it is hard to give examples of conversations as they are not applicable to all friends, some are closer the other are not. Most days conversations are boring and limited to work and quick hello.

[jaamkie]

I tend to have guy friends- I think you just have to remind yourself they're not your boyfriend, they're not your best girlfriend, and you can't have those sort of expectations for them. Guys in general tend to like more alone time, and tend to be less regular/persistent about keeping in touch with their other guy friends- but it doesn't mean they don't like you or don't want to be your friend- often they just don't want to feel obligated to spend time, and will pull away the second they feel like the relationship expectations are becoming unsustainable. Particularly when they get obsessed with a new girl- you just have to accept they'll be busy for awhile but eventually will get over it and come back to their friends.

[funchy]

Originally Posted by angies

When I say touchy I mean playful punches, smacks on the hand, taps on the shoulder.

Depending on context and the person, this can be see as flirting.

When I say mucking around, I mean verbally, we talked about adult topics like how to make love to a woman, what does one night stands mean for a guy etc. the conversation can get a bit of adult nature but always in a group conversation never one on one. One on one sometimes we can be a little bit flirty like I would say "Hi handsome" and he would say things like "Seeing you make it worth while to come to work" etc.

The question is why are you bringing sexually charged topics/behavior into a relationship with a guy who is only a friend? Are you hoping these guy friends will eventually ask you out?

If you flirt with a guy, he may see it as you're interested in him. If you flirt with many guys, a guy watching this may interpret it as you being too loose with your behavior (even if you're not sleeping around). You may be projecting the image of 'sexual availability to most guys' without realizing it.

[angies]

Originally Posted by jaamkie

I tend to have guy friends- I think you just have to remind yourself they're not your boyfriend, they're not your best girlfriend, and you can't have those sort of expectations for them. Guys in general tend to like more alone time, and tend to be less regular/persistent about keeping in touch with their other guy friends- but it doesn't mean they don't like you or don't want to be your friend- often they just don't want to feel obligated to spend time, and will pull away the second they feel like the relationship expectations are becoming unsustainable. Particularly when they get obsessed with a new girl- you just have to accept they'll be busy for awhile but eventually will get over it and come back to their friends.

You hit the nail on the head, I think. I sort of think of them a bit like my best girl friends.

[angies]

Originally Posted by funchy

Depending on context and the person, this can be see as flirting.



The question is why are you bringing sexually charged topics/behavior into a relationship with a guy who is only a friend? Are you hoping these guy friends will eventually ask you out?

If you flirt with a guy, he may see it as you're interested in him. If you flirt with many guys, a guy watching this may interpret it as you being too loose with your behavior (even if you're not sleeping around). You may be projecting the image of 'sexual availability to most guys' without realizing it.

ecck.. too complicated... I don't know where to draw the line... no wonder every one is confused...

Need to pull back... not worth the hassle really...

[funchy]

Originally Posted by angies

ecck.. too complicated... I don't know where to draw the line... no wonder every one is confused...

Need to pull back... not worth the hassle really...

Do you treat these guys the same way you act around your female friends? If not, why not?

[angies]

Originally Posted by RRR

It doesn't sound like you have many guy friends and you don't seem to be trying very hard to keep them around. One lack of a proper greeting is enough to send you into never trying for him again. 2 of your guy friends are only your friends because of their "persistant effort". And when that effort stops all of a sudden you can't be friends with them? Where is your effort to get what you want?

I am the kind that do not have many friends. I have 4 really close girl friends that I love to bits and do any thing for. I do not have many really close friends who are guys. Come to think about it I only have 1 and the reason we stay friends I must say is thanks to his effort to keep in touch.

Come to think about it I am not sure why I do not have many male friends, I did have close male friends over the years but somehow we always get drift apart. Unlike my girl friends who remain part fo my life for many years. The few that I somehow became close to recently I must say thanks to their persistent effort to keep in touch daily. I guess I am more selective to my male friends than my female friends. May be I need to know if I can really be their friends and there is no ulterior motive behind their friendliness to me.

I do have many many male work colleagues that I work with and socialise with but I do not considered them as my friends. I guess I need to connect to a deeper level to those I consider as friends.

[angies]

Originally Posted by funchy

Do you treat these guys the same way you act around your female friends? If not, why not?

Once I consider them as friends, I do act the same way around them as my female friends. I am a very friendly and affectionate person who need to connect to friends at personal level. I do not enjoy having many friends, I do enjoy having a few friends that I can trust completely and be myself with them. It took me a long time to find a new friend but once I find him or her, it will be for keep. Of the 4 guys mentioned, may be I will consider only guy number 1 to eventually be my friend. The other ones I expect will be drift off eventually.

I normally do not have the luxury of having many guy friends, due to my lack of effort to be friendly. As you can see I tentative effort to become friendly with guys always get interpreted wrongly somehow, and I bet I will pull back and hold back and eventually we just get drift apart somehow.

[angies]

Originally Posted by spookie149

Do you think these men have been using the "friends" term as a way of getting close to you before asking you out?

I think that was the initial intention, until we get to know each other and they know that I am attached so we ended up hanging out as friends. I do not know if they are still friends with me due to some ulterior motive such as extra benefit eventually. May be they do, but I do not think so I like to think that they are intelligent people who are capable of being friends to a female without their other heads get in the way.

[angies]

Originally Posted by SupersecretIdentity

I have plenty of female friends, and they are not touchy with me at all. I know it would definitely strike me as off if one of them began getting touchy in the way I assume the OP is referring to.

Not to try to defend myself or anything, these touchy moments that I mentioned are extreme examples of what has happened. Most of our interaction do not involve any physical contact at all. And as I said earlier the physical contacts are considered to me to be reserved for friends such as light touch on the arm, playful punches, put an arm on my shoulder and goodbye hugs.

So your female friends never being touchy to you? Would you think she is coming on to you if they do?

[CroMagna]

There was a time in my life when all of my friends were guys. We all drifted apart over the years but I still keep in touch with a few of them now and then. I was the token girl of the group.

I have met a few guys that turned out to be wolves in sheep's clothing, but I have met girls who turned out to be wolves in sheep's clothing too.

Now my best friend is a guy.

I have always acted like myself in these friendships. I can always talk about adult things with them because I wouldn't befriend anyone I couldn't talk about adult things with. In fact that was one of the reasons I started gravitating towards guys in the first place. I could tell them about my sex life without feeling judged, as girls tend to be prudes. Sometimes it's platonic, sometimes it's friends with benefits, sometimes it leads to a relationship, but I always just go with the flow.

Someone said a guy-centered friendship is talking about chicks/lifting and a girl-centered friendship is talking about an emotional breakup with an ex?? My male friends and I talk about politics, religion, philosophy, dating, careers, sports, sex, music, exchange advice... they're human! What's the point of making a true friend if you can't be true around them? By the way I have never befriended an effeminate male.

Always be yourself. Don't become a slave to rules. If you want to know what is going wrong or if you're sending out the wrong signals, just ask him!

[driven1]

angies: It sounds to me like every one of those examples was pursuing you as a love-interest. (That's not BAD, per se, it just would be nice if they made their intentions clear up front, ya know??) Most attractive girls have a number of guys who "hover" around, pretending to be friends, waiting for their Big Chance. (Girls do this too, btw...) This is classic Nice Guy Syndrome, which I prefer to call Disingenuous Insecure Bastard Syndrome. Having been there, done that, I think it takes a pretty secure guy to honestly just be friends with a very attractive girl, esp. if he doesn't have a solid alternate love-interest.

Another thing is... You know how a lot of men don't know how to relate to women as people (as opposed to sex-pursuits)? A lot of women don't know how to relate to men without getting their flirt on. Like it's a natural instinct: "Oh, hey look, there's a guy, I'm going to make him attracted to me to help validate my worth as a woman! Even though I have a boyfriend, husband, whatever..." (I have no idea whether you do this or not, of course, but I am myself guilty of sometimes "practicing" on women I have no actual sexual interest in. Sometimes you *catch* the car you're chasing, and you go "uh ohhhhh"... )

I sympathize; it really does suck. I like women as friends, I really do, but it's difficult. Friendly gestures are interpreted with sexual overtones, boyfriends get jealous, etc. And we really are programmed to value sex with a pretty girl so highly. Makes us act like jerks!

I do think it's a shame to write off ALL men as friends, but I've been here with girls at times. Best I can say is... try to befriend guys who already have girls/wives they love and if they get more than friendly, be prepared to break it off and never look back.

[spookie149]

Originally Posted by driven1

Another thing is... You know how a lot of men don't know how to relate to women as people (as opposed to sex-pursuits)? A lot of women don't know how to relate to men without getting their flirt on. Like it's a natural instinct: "Oh, hey look, there's a guy, I'm going to make him attracted to me to help validate my worth as a woman! Even though I have a boyfriend, husband, whatever..." (I have no idea whether you do this or not, of course, but I am myself guilty of sometimes "practicing" on women I have no actual sexual interest in. Sometimes you *catch* the car you're chasing, and you go "uh ohhhhh"... )

driven you've beaten me to it! I was going to say the same thing! I know I for one am guilty as charged.