Flirting!

[estudiant9]

Hi!

Please resist the urge to say duh, because I'm really that inexperienced in this arena. This is kind of frustrating. What are you supposed to do when you're fortunate enough that, a member of the attractive gender looks at you or smiles at you and signals clear interest? It would help especially if I could hear from those of you who are/were in a college setting. What's a guy expected to do if a lady, god bless her heart, musters up the courage to make the first move? I usually: 1) make a brief eye contact back and immediately look away (80% of the time) 2) make a somewhat sustained eye contact, and maybe look back at her later -- but by the time I do this, I just have it in my head that, "I don't know what the heck I'm doing, maybe next time," and just kind of walk away or give up, convincing myself that at least I kept my pride instead of possibly doing something that would embarrass me. And I beat myself up for hours afterwards for probably having hurt and disrespected the girl.

I'm a 22-year-old college student who is very much a recluse and very lacking in social skills, but for some reason or another, regularly gets some form of female attention -- maybe it's just the school's skewed gender ratio which heavily favors males. The last and only time I had a romantic encounter with a girl was with a good friend, and it just kind of progressed into a kiss, etc., but I've never approached a girl or taken an approach from others and gotten to know them. I really don't know the first thing about getting to know girls. I'm incredibly sensitive to rejection; on any given day I could be approached by 10 attractive women (I'm being hypothetical ), and if one person gives me a cold shoulder or anything less than an unequivocally positive response, I get so discouraged. On one hand this is ridiculous, but on the other hand, it's the truth.

Obviously this is not an isolated thing, I need to work on self-esteem, expanding my social circles in general and finding a direction in life so I've been dismissing this as an ancillary problem and avoiding facing it directly, but I would really appreciate any input you all might have.

Thank you.

[spookie149]

It's quite possible you've grown into an attractive guy and just don't realize it. You're right about the self-esteem though. If you get rejected you'll probably wind up feeling worse off than before and discouraged from any future attempts. But don't let that stop you! Everybody gets rejected. You could be Mr.Universe and still women might not be into you. If you want to start dating I would start as a friend first. Maybe join a sports team or start chatting about something in the news with a girl next to you in a class. You might feel less pressure while building up the confidence to feel comfortable talking with girls. And hey- we're not all that bad!

[splat]

I'm sure you've heard of the pickup community. When I first discovered it didn't resonate with me, it just didn't feel right.

However, this takes a perspective that is more in line with the views and vibe of this forum: Pickup Podcast Blog: Advice, Dating Tips and Interviews with Dating Gurus and Expert Seducers Don't skip straight to parts on banter or flirting, start downloading the first episode immediately and listen to one a day. Also join the forums, simply reading them will give you great insights.

[Pequod]

Before you can have any succes with women it is paramount that you work on your social skills. If you can't have an interesting, animated conversation with a stranger you have just met, you won't have succes with women either (you also need to be able to have an interesting, animated conversation with an attractive women you just have met).

There is a great site that goes into the value and pitfalls of the seduction community: www.datinggroundwork.com | Information for hard-up guys on acquiring the basic foundations necessary to have future success with women The guy has also a link to his site for training social skills. Very recommended!

[frajilthunder]

I always wonder how effective these sites for social skills are. My take is sink or swim. Don't think you can really get social skills from reading a computer screen. Get out there! Your college years will soon be over and you don't want to regret not enjoying them to the fullest.

What are you into? Find a club or a study group that pertains to your interests and join up. It will be much easier to converse, and later flirt, with women with whom you have a common interest. I hear you say that you are sensitive to rejection. The only way you are going to de-sensitize yourself is to put it out there, get rejected, and realize that life doesn't come to a screeching halt afterwards. Best of luck to you. I want to read a post here about you flirting up some hot women in about a week! Don't let me down!

[estudiant9]

Thank you all for your input and wonderful insights.

@spookie149: Starting off with something easy is a wonderful idea. I don't know, I've had a tendency to dismiss any legitimate opportunities in the past. If I'm in class I tell myself, "I'm here to learn, and I'm not learning much here, so definitely not a time to make friends." At club sport practice, "I'm here to train and build up my fitness, and talking to girls would make me look like an unfocused, needy idiot." Arrggh, such need to protect my fragile ego! But you're right.

@splat: I used to read up on that stuff off and on in the past, but most of that stuff seems to apply more to "real" adults than college students in institution settings. But I'll definitely check those out, I've downloaded all the podcasts today.

@Pequod: Thanks so much for that useful link! When a guy says he has problems with girls, the issue almost always goes deeper than just girls alone. It's his whole social makeup...

@frajilthunder: I know, ultimately I need to "just go and do it." Thanks for putting it in perspective and letting me know that it's a gradual process of improvement -- all too often it's so easy to face an isolated discouraging event and generalize based on that and not even bother to try.

[ArtVandelay]

I want you to say "hi" to 5 attractive female strangers a day for the next seven days. Just smile and say "hi" as you pass them. You'll be amazed by how friendly people are.

Also, a tip: try not to break eye contact first. I don't mean you should just stare at her constantly, but don't immediately look down or away when she looks at you. Yes, she noticed you were looking at her. Big deal... you don't need to try to hide it!

[spookie149]

Originally Posted by ArtVandelay

Also, a tip: try not to break eye contact first. I don't mean you should just stare at her constantly, but don't immediately look down or away when she looks at you. Yes, she noticed you were looking at her. Big deal... you don't need to try to hide it!

Love it. Maybe smile wider when she looks at you. It will send the signal you like what you see and you'll probably get a warm response back.

[Jacen]

Ooh ooh, a thread I can help with!

I'm in my third year of college. I recently spent a few months reforming my social attitude, and my interactions with females in particular, with an eye toward being the kind of guy who's attractive and fun to be around. And, well, it was extremely successful. So, I know where you're coming from, and where you want to be. And, I hopefully can help you get there.

The first step is attitude. A quick fix for this would be to buy or illegally download the e-Book Conquer Your Campus, as it does a great job explaining the kind of attitude you want to have, and gives nice examples of how it manifests on-campus. But the basic idea is that you are an awesome guy who girls love to interact with. You need to have this attitude 100%, so that it's not about "What do I do to engage them? What should I do now, oh gawd, she's looking at me? What's the next step?" Instead it's "hey, she's kinda cute, I'll return her attention and we'll see if she's brave enough to take me up on it." You want to be fully confident that everyone wants to interact with you, and talk with you, and do cool things with you, because you are the kind of guy that girls love to be around.

So, in practice, in the situations you mention, this means that after she makes eye contact or shows some subtle signs of interest:

• Your first step is to ask yourself---is she cute? Is she worth me? You see how this is an inversion of your usual thought process: instead of you desperately hoping for some attention, you're taking the fact that you get attention as a given, and deciding whether to give it back.
• Assuming the answer is yes, you make eye contact back, maybe give her a hint of a confident smile, kinda a "hey, I see you looking at me; I get that all the time, heh."
• Assuming this isn't enough to reel her in, you'll finish whatever you're doing that's more important than her, then on your way out stop by and introduce yourself.

It was kind of a breakthrough for me, realizing how simple introducing yourself is. It's a perfectly natural thing to do---you're not approaching with any romantic/etc. intentions; you're just walking up to this person who you've been trading looks with and saying "hey, I've seen you around, but I don't know you... I'm Jacen, what's your name?"

At this point you can start mixing in "more advanced" things, e.g. compliments, playful "push-pull" techniques (e.g. making fun of her in a light, playful way, then turning it around into a compliment---you know the kind of joking that socially adept guys seem to do naturally -_-), commenting on whatever it is that she's doing, probing for things in her life that you can resonate with ("you're majoring in math? No way, me too! That's so cool! How'd you get interested?"), even asking her out. (More on that one later.)

The important point is how you end up walking away from this. You're just this upbeat guy who approached her and, now that you've gotten to know her, you're moving along with your awesome life. Maybe she wasn't responsive; that's fine too, she apparently wasn't cool enough for you, so whatever. Or maybe she was; well, don't latch on to that, but instead just take it in stride and end it with a noncommittal "see you around sometime, maybe." You leave her intrigued, kind of impressed at how confident you were, and perhaps how clever/playful/etc. you were if you were able to exhibit that in conversation.

Regarding asking-out: just like introducing yourself, in the end it's much easier than you might think. You seem to have hit it off with this girl, so a natural close is "mmm, I've got to run now to do that important thing, but maybe we can catch a cup of coffee later or something? OK, cool, just give me your number." Again, there are some advanced nuances you can integrate here, in the vein of being playful about it or asserting that, if she's not up for it, then you're just going to move on, so she'd better play along. But in the end it's just that simple. Rejection segues to "haha, OK, guess you aren't as interesting as I'd thought"---you might even try saying that out loud, depending on the vibe. Acceptance ends with you just moving on out of her life, leaving her to wonder what just hit her, and anticipating your phone call.

----

As for starting slower than that, which I found helpful:

• As part of reforming your attitude, reform your self-image and environment. For me this meant going to the gym consistently, cleaning/rearranging my room to be "somewhere I would like to take a girl," and doing a little bit of hygeine/wardrobe touchup (but nothing crazy like buying expensive clothes).
• Learn how to dance, in the style that shows up at parties. I found a nice DVD, which again you can either buy or download illegally, called "Learn to Club Dance," which was just perfect. The first party or two can be awkward, but especially if you go with friends, it ends up being fun. And being a guy who can dance well at parties sure is a great way to meet women---just pick out one on the sidelines, who you may or may not have met before and ask if they want to dance. (Got my first college girlfriend this way a few weeks ago, hah.)
• Fix up your outward manifestions: Facebook profiles, dorm-room doors, whatever things that people can draw first impressions from.
• Un-burn any bridges: if you've made social enemies or done things you're not proud of, especially with regard to "social movers," try to very genuinely apologize and show that you're trying to be a better person. There's a lot of attitude shift in this one; you might think the person you offended is a jerk, but if you can shift toward a more loving and open mindset, everything will go better.
• Make sure to attend any simple social events, like free food. Chat with friends enthusiastically, and introduce yourself to others (males too) just as an easy, friendly, thing to do.

When you start doing "active" things, like socializing actively, dancing at parties, or asking a girl out, it'll definitely be scary and awkward the first few times. But just strive to maintain the right attitude, and after a few successes you'll be so much more confident and in the right place, these things will be easy. Believe me, the difference between me-two-months-ago and me-now with regards to fear, etc. is amazing. I think a key part of this is laying the groundwork with attitude and the "slow start" things above; with those in hand, you get into the right mindset for success, kind of a "I've prepared everything, if this doesn't work then it's not because I smell bad, it's because she's being weird, so this is totally going to work after all because I'm awesome."

-----------

Hope that helps! If you'd like more, follow up here or via email .

[estudiant9]

My goodness, thanks so much Jacen.
I'll absorb all this and get back to you on this later! Gosh, I am actually right in the middle of beating the hell out of myself for letting another opportunity slide - I had a final exam an hour ago in this class where a girl had been eyeing me pretty much all semester (she has a boyfriend though - I found out via Facebook. Heh.). We even finished the exam at the same time, and it crossed my mind that I could simply say "Hey, how did it go for you?" but of course, I didn't. $%#@!!!! $#@%!!! God I'm so mad. Soooo mad.
For you ladies, if we guys ignore you it doesn't necessarily mean we're not into you, we could just be STUPID. GAWD!

Thanks again Jacen. Your advice is much needed and appreciated. You saved my day.

[Alexjstrandberg]

Agreed with frajilthunder that social skills aren't learned on a computer screen. It's a skill that is learned by doing it. You can get tips on it but there aren't very helpful because in any given situation there are a million different things that are going on (her body language, eye movements, tone) that need to be calculated.

People who are social are good at calibrating all of these things quickly on a mostly unconscious level.

Approaching women seems scary but it's that fear that is causing the low self esteem. The more fears you posses the lower your self esteem will be. It will be terrifying the first couple of times but the more you do it the more you will relax.

Instead of diving deep into information I suggest just getting over your fear of approaching first. The knowledge might create a belief of 'I need to have this and that handled first before approaching a woman' or 'I need to be this confident before actually approaching.'

This will set you back greatly because confidence will be gained through making mistakes and just approaching. The information out there will slow you down because a lot of people try to learn their way out of their fears. Doesn't work that way because the only way around a fear is through it.

[LordSappington]

I have a very similar fear of approaching. I've found that it's very helpful to come up with two or three recyclable opening lines for various situations. For example, "I've seen you around. What school are you in?" or "What are you studying?" Then just reuse them over and over until you're comfortable using them, and then expand your repertoire. It's actually worked quite well for me, and I've been practicing using it on people at the airport when I'm traveling.

[Jacen]

Glad to be helpful! I realize now that it's a rather humongous post, but it sounds like it works for you, so yay .

Originally Posted by LordSappington

I have a very similar fear of approaching. I've found that it's very helpful to come up with two or three recyclable opening lines for various situations. For example, "I've seen you around. What school are you in?" or "What are you studying?" Then just reuse them over and over until you're comfortable using them, and then expand your repertoire. It's actually worked quite well for me, and I've been practicing using it on people at the airport when I'm traveling.

This is good advice.

[Pequod]

Great post Jacen. I like your hands-on, practical approach.

This is the key:

Originally Posted by Jacen

it's not about "What do I do to engage them? What should I do now, oh gawd, she's looking at me? What's the next step?" Instead it's "hey, she's kinda cute, I'll return her attention and we'll see if she's brave enough to take me up on it."

That is showing real confidence. Not some tricks to put her down, but assuming you're a cool guy, checking out if she is cool too. The key is in the mind, not in stuff like 'frame-control' or alpha bodylanguage. All that jazz comes on its own accord when you have the right attitude.