My man - The Clam

[shakra]

My partner and I have been together for ten years this coming January. Not married, no kids, but very much in love.

The problem is that he has some problems, but will not discuss anything with anyone. I dont know what's manifesting inside him, but it certainly doesn't feel positive.

I have LOTS of very small issues that continue to bug me.. and I'm not sure if it's me being a picky virgo bitchface or if it's him.. I think it may be both.

One of the major problems though, is that I feel if he's not going to open up, then I would rather move on because I'm sick of having to guess what is up with him.. and I dont ever know if I'm right or not.. coz he just clams right up.

Here's some of the things I complain about..

• Dinner - I cook every single night.. and wash up.. and he just leaves his plate on the kitchen bench, lounge or table with the scraps still on it. I've started leaving it.. but it disgusts me.
• Washing - I've asked him to wash his own clothes, but to seperate mine out because he always ends up leaving the washing in the machine for days and it ends up stinky and ruined. He has asked me if I see washing in the machine, to put it in the dryer... but I have enough to do let alone checking on his washing.
• Feeding and Caring for our Cat - this doesnt happen unless I ask.. he never even checks our Kurt's water.. this makes me think that God hasn't blessed us with a child because if anything ever happened to me.. my man would not be in a position to care well for a child, both physically and emotionally. He's never lifted a turd out of the litter box, I know that much.
• When I try to discuss any of these kinds of issues, I get The Clam, or the Angry Man that Flew off the Handle.
• Rent Money - He pays now without me having to ask, but he pays for rent only... I put the utilities in his name so he would pay them, as I pay for all of the household groceries, catfood, cleaning products etc.. so paying a couple of utilities is fair (I think).. but he's never paid them. He gave me $100 to pay the gas bill, but I spent it because thats what he did to me with money I gave him to pay my car registration once.

I want him to learn but he's just not getting it..

There are plenty more little things that bother me.. and sometimes I feel I would be better on my own, but I really truly feel he is my soulmate. The way we ended up together is an incredible story... but his personal development is not progressing.. whereas I have come from being an abusive bitch who would yell at everyone in the house the minute she got home from work.. to a calm, supportive and loving partner. Part of the abusive flair ups was because of many "small-ish" issues...

I also used to self-harm, and I recall back then, rather than him trying to get me to open up.. he would say he's leaving unless I stopped it..


Maybe I have a male dependency issue??
I really want to fix him, but maybe he doesnt wanna be fixed?

I'm at a loss as to what to do next.. There are so many other small issues.. I've tried to explain to him that it's the multitude of small things that stick together and become one major issue.

Sorry for the long post!

[funchy]

You cannot "fix" or change anyone else. When you truly understand that, your life will get much easier because decisions will be crystal-clear. You have two choices: accept him as-is or move on.

If he felt that you were his soul-mate would he really be treating you this way? It sounds like he doesn't appreciate you. It also sounds like he's enjoying getting free maid service, his bills paid, and a personal chef.

Does he not realize a relationship is work, and by that I mean both partners need to contribute? He is not upholding his job as a partner. This is about him respecting you and fulfilling his role as partner.

Here's what might happen: You're going to stay with him. Slowly the resentment will build. When you confront him, he'll sulk (The Clam) and make you feel like you were wrong for bringing it up. You'll feel worse about yourself because he's your soulmate. You'll think you must not deserve better treatment if this is the best your soulmate will do. You may feel depressed or powerless sometimes. Sometimes you'll feel overwhelmed because eveything is your job and it's not worth his Temper Tantrum to get his help. Eventually you'll end up hating him and hate yourself.

I've dealt with Clams before. They control the situation by making it so you don't want to bring up difficult issues. I eventually learned that only works if you give in to The Clam. Ask him to sit down so you can talk (in a non-confrontation low-blame sort of way). If he doesn't reply or he starts to sulk, fine, but you need to have your say. Then explain how you're at your limit and you simply cannot do his X, Y, and Z any more. Maybe he won't have anything to say immediately. Maybe he needs time to ponder it, or maybe he does hope you'll give up. And then from that point on you need to be strong; you need to stop doing X, Y, Z for him. If he doesn't want to pay his utility bills then LET HIM! It's his credit rating, not yours. If he doesn't want to have clean clothes LET HIM! It's his stinky body odor. On the shared things, find ways to do your own wash and cooking without letting his laziness interfere....but stop enabling his laziness. Why not put him 100% in charge of dishes and you 100% in charge of laundry? If he wants to be lazy about dirty dishes, he can, but he'll find himself without clean plates when it's dinnertime.

It sounds like this isn't a partnership. It sounds like here is a man who is living like the irresponsible teenager and you're the diligent mamma bird who is taking care of all of his needs. That's not fair, and it's only going to get worse.

You CANNOT change him -- don't forget that.

Good luck to you.

[shakra]

thanks funchy..

it makes perfect sense. the things you've said...

I guess I just want everything to be ok... but having nevr really gotten to the bottom of our issues, rather just brushing them under the carpet.. mainly because when I attempt to confront issues, I either end up coming across as angry, or attacking, or I am perceived that way.. even though thats not my intent.

the fact that we are both dealing with an addiction doesnt help..


I am now concentrating on fixing myself... and hope to God that he sees the improvements I am making and want to do the same for himself.. otherwise, sadly I may end up having to walk away from my one and only true love...

I truly believe in my heart if he put the effort in, he would be surprised at the changes in his life.. but how can I get him to understand this without forcing it down his throat?

[shakra]

Originally Posted by funchy

You cannot "fix" or change anyone else. When you truly understand that, your life will get much easier because decisions will be crystal-clear. You have two choices: accept him as-is or move on.

Dont get me wrong.. I do accept him.. and I dont try to "change" HIM.. but I do try to assist in changing some of his negative behaviours that have an affect on me. I do this by trying to explain that I am not attacking him, that it affects me and my happiness and try and get him to come around that way.

Originally Posted by funchy

If he felt that you were his soul-mate would he really be treating you this way? It sounds like he doesn't appreciate you. It also sounds like he's enjoying getting free maid service, his bills paid, and a personal chef.

Does he not realize a relationship is work, and by that I mean both partners need to contribute? He is not upholding his job as a partner. This is about him respecting you and fulfilling his role as partner.

I know he feels I am his soul-mate because the rare times when he does open up.. (for example a few weeks back I asked him what he loved about me and he shocked me with some really beautiful words) I get that warm rush of love and feel so lucky to have this person in my life. We have a very rare connection that even outsiders can see, but we just need to get back on track..

Originally Posted by funchy

Here's what might happen: You're going to stay with him. Slowly the resentment will build. When you confront him, he'll sulk (The Clam) and make you feel like you were wrong for bringing it up. You'll feel worse about yourself because he's your soulmate. You'll think you must not deserve better treatment if this is the best your soulmate will do. You may feel depressed or powerless sometimes. Sometimes you'll feel overwhelmed because eveything is your job and it's not worth his Temper Tantrum to get his help. Eventually you'll end up hating him and hate yourself.

This is exactly where I am at now.. I'm feeling both overwhelmed, and powerless.

(I feel I have pyschic abilities and have been told I am an empath and clairsentient, and this is overwhelming, but answers a lot of questions about my childhood.) I'm not sure what he thinks of my spiritual development or any of that either as he has virtually no comment. I dont know if this is because he has a problem with himself, or if it is me.

The virgo in me blames myself.. and the scorpio ascendent in me wants me to make my Taurus stop digging his heels by slapping him upside the head and dragging him to follow my lead to a positive new outlook on life. I know this will not work. the old "Can lead a horse to water, but cant make it drink" analogy.



As far as you saying that it sounds like this isn't a partnership - it doesnt always feel like one either.. It also feels like he is a man who is living like an irresponsible teenager and I'm the mother taking care of all of his needs.

I know this is not fair, and I have recently said to a friend.. this is all my fault.. I allowed this to happen for too long...

tryin to keep my chin up... but this happens every christmas... leaving someone you are deeply in love with but know they are not good for you cant be an easy thing... I might start another thread based on that topic..

XX love and light

[Lauxa]

You might enjoy this article, I did and it allowed me to loosen up about some things.
Violent Acres » Blog Archive » A Peaceful Marriage is Not Always 50/50

[shakra]

thats a good article Lauxa! thanks!

[Lisa McGregor]

Thank you Lauxa, what a great article.

Love
Lisa

[Lauxa]

Glad you liked it!

A couple more points...

It is normal for guys to clam up and get defensive when you are confronting them with their failure to please you. My guy does that too. If you want him to open up, try telling him how wonderful he is.

On self-harm, it may not have been comfortable for you with him ignoring you when you did that behavior, but it was probably the best thing he could have done. Otherwise he would have been giving reinforcement to a bad behavior. You might even still be doing it. So thank him for that sometime.

BTW, DH and I will be at 10 years this March.

[carenkh]

I don't have any experience with this - except with teenagers - but something struck me from your post. It sounds like you are both very separate from one another. His laundry, my laundry, his bills, my bills... How much connection do you have? I have a feeling if you let some of the aggravations go, and focused on creating connection, things would flow between you better.

I think, if he's in recovery, a large part of him IS still a teen.

Something that works with cleaning and my kids - "Hey! Let's go take care of your laundry!" "This living room is awful! Let's pile the books up here, and we'll pick up the trash." WE. US. LET'S. I make it a connecting activity as much as I'm able. I don't do that when they're in the middle of something. I don't tell them to do it. I was about to write, nor do I do it for them, but plenty of times, I do. I love them, and want their home comfortable. We all have a pretty high tolerance for clutter and mess, but sometimes, I get on a roll, and start clearing! That's my choice, because it's how I want the house. It's my gig, so I don't mind doing it. I've noticed as my oldest has gotten older, he's MUCH more likely to just clean something himself, or help out even when I don't ask.

I don't know if any of that is helpful, but I wanted to share my impressions!

[shakra]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

Glad you liked it!

A couple more points...

It is normal for guys to clam up and get defensive when you are confronting them with their failure to please you. My guy does that too. If you want him to open up, try telling him how wonderful he is.

On self-harm, it may not have been comfortable for you with him ignoring you when you did that behavior, but it was probably the best thing he could have done. Otherwise he would have been giving reinforcement to a bad behavior. You might even still be doing it. So thank him for that sometime.

BTW, DH and I will be at 10 years this March.

oh... I do thank him often for sticking by me during such a dark time in my life..

I also had a good read back on my initial post.. and I was being a bit of a serial complainer..

Originally Posted by carenkh

I don't have any experience with this - except with teenagers - but something struck me from your post. It sounds like you are both very separate from one another. His laundry, my laundry, his bills, my bills... How much connection do you have? I have a feeling if you let some of the aggravations go, and focused on creating connection, things would flow between you better.
...

Good pickup!!! I have never noticed that consciously.. but I understand I do verbally seperate things like chores and bills...


we are very much connected.. strong feelings of love and caring for each other, and funny things that happen a lot... he will say what I am thinking,.. and vice versa.. we enjoy each others interests and hobbies..

Basically I feel it's just a communication problem.

I do need to relax and chill out a bit more.

I'm going to digest this info and see how it affects my behavior this week and I will come back later in the week with an update..

[Alexjstrandberg]

great post funchy, I agree.

[shakra]

Help!


I'm at a loss... every morning I wake up to him angrily rummaging through clothes in our room for something to wear to work.

This makes me feel anxious, guilty and responsible.. but I dont want to feel responsible... BUT I dont want to take responsibility for my fiancee's clothes..

Fair call that I seperate these tasks into MINE and HIS... but I would resent doing his washing.. thats why I dont bother to do it, and why I seperate these things.. but I resent the fact that I "believe" that something inside him expects that I will do it. I'm diggin my heels in on this one.. I'm not friggin doin it!

I've also realised that there are a bunch of other things that he expects me to do..

I couldnt tell you how many times in a week I have heard "Hey babe.. wheres my keys or wallet etc.." I used to say I dont know.. wait 10 seconds and then go and find it.. because he just cant see what is right in front of his face... and what might take him an hour to find, I could find in a minute. I've stopped doing this, and replaced that with the response with "are you asking me to look for it?" which I dont think he really knows what to make of this response..



so as I said before.. it's a multitude of those kinds of issues.. which to me boil down to ONE massive communication problem.

I tend to bottle things up these days (I used to be a nag nag nag... but nags fall on deaf ears) to the point where I cant take it anymore and blow up about one particular thing.. it then appears that I'm getting upset about some tiny stupid thing..


I just want to get to a point where we can actually raise an issue or topic, discuss it and then put it to rest.

I get frustrated that often when I attempt to talk about things.. he's not in a "receiving" mode.. e.g last night I made a comment that I dont think he is engaged when we are in a conversation.. particularly I wanted to talk to him about these forums and some insights have come to me as a result.. but he was on the computer.. and said he was "listening".. but I'm not sure he was actually "engaged" in the conversation.. I actually felt like I was talking at him and he really didnt understand or want to hear what I had to say..

I've thought about emailing him a link to this thread to show the feedback from people on here.. but I'm not sure if that will compound my problem...

he really is a wonderful guy, but a non-communicator... and I dont know how much more of this I can take.. it's affecting my ability to grow in the areas I wish to because I really want to share my experiences with him.. my soulmate.



Sorry for the long post..

[spookie149]

Maybe you're picking the wrong times to communicate with him? If you're really excited about something and want to share an idea or thought that's great. However, if you're asking him to listen when he has had a long day at work and needs a bit of time to unwind, it might be better to ask over dinner when he's had a bit of time to himself. Have you ever read Men Are From Mars? Definitely worth reading. I think that would help with some communication issues.

You said you used to nag. But you're still doing the stuff that makes you mad. So instead of fixing the situation you're just choking back your own feelings on the situation. That's not fair. So you feel guilty or responsible for doing the laundry or finding his keys. From what you're saying, it sounds like he's gotten into a habit of letting you do these things for him. That's right- he's letting you do these things for him. Why? Because you've shown you can and you will. To be fair, I think most of us wouldn't do the laundry or the dishes etc if we knew our partners would take care of it anyway. Don't nag. Just don't do it. Wash your clothes when he's not around. As for the keys, shrug and let him find them himself. It will only take once or twice before he owns up and starts doing it himself and will stop asking. Eventually he's stop throwing hissy fits because it won't do him any good. If he's got any brains he'll learn to do it himself ahead of time so he doesn't keep going through the morning routine. Note- just because he stops asking you for help finding his wallet doesn't mean he'll stop asking you for help with a problem or feelings.

[carenkh]

If you're good at knowing where things are, and he doesn't see something that's right in front of him, why wouldn't you just tell him where his things are?

I am very much that way - and I'm a woman! - I can be looking for something and just.not.see.it. It's gotten better as an adult, but as a kid, I felt so frustrated and disliked when people would expect me to find X: It's yours! It's your responsibility! It was not an ability I had. Forcing me to blindly look didn't help me find things any easier, it just made me feel uncared-for! The only thing I "learned" by doing that was that someone who could help me, wouldn't.

We all have different strengths and abilities.

I understand better about the laundry - does your caring for him in that way not get reciprocated anywhere in the relationship? I'm not talking about some other cleaning thing, necessarily. Does he bring enough value to the relationship for you to lovingly take that on? (It doesn't sound like it.)

I would ask him to schedule a time to talk, with no distractions.

[Pequod]

Originally Posted by shakra

he really is a wonderful guy, but a non-communicator...

Is that true? From what you describe, the problem is not that he cannot communicate. The problem is that he ignores your needs.

Or is there anything you can do to get through? It seems like you have been doing more than your fair share. I'm sorry, I don't get the impression that better communication will solve your problems.

[shakra]

thanks for the support guys.. I felt such pressure on my chest yesterday morning... my heart and throat chakras are generally overactive.. so I need to learn to control this too...

yes.. Pequod, I think you are right.. my needs aren't being met.. and I have accepted that for a great many years.

Spookie.. I have read Men are from Mars.. but this doesnt feel like one of those "rubber-band" periods... this just feels like he is oblivious to my needs.. and I dont know how to communicate them in a way that he will understand and respond. <-- just articulated what I've been trying to get out for days!!! haha

I think I do this because in the beginning of our relationship I knew he just wasnt capable of giving me everything I needed.. but also in saying that.. I did need to sort out a lot of **** on my own in order to resolve a lot of my inner issues.. which have now been dealt with.

I think it may be that I am moving forward now in such a positive way, I want to help him come along too... but I guess he really needs to do this on his own...

carenk: You're so right... if I can see it.. then there's nothing hurting me from saying.. There it is on the table etc.. but if I'm in the middle of cooking or doing something.. I've started asking him to wait til I'm done. Same as when I'm on the net.. and he will request from his throne on the lounge "Can you look up this and that" and now.. I just say.. you can look it up yourself when I'm done in 5 minutes if you like! hahah it's working!

he really is such a wonderful man... I love him so much... I have a lot of trust issues with people.. and I must say.. I could trust him with anything... I could stick him in a room full of hot women.. and I know he would be faithful to me.. he loves me, and I still feel such strong passion even after 10 years together... so I am very very lucky..

thanks again guys... your advice really helps me see things from other perspectives.

[Andrew Brunelle]

Originally Posted by shakra

Maybe I have a male dependency issue??
I really want to fix him, but maybe he doesnt wanna be fixed?

You can't fix somebody who doesn't want to be fixed himself. The same way proud handicapped people refuse help getting groceries to their car, his pride perhaps keeps him from thinking he needs to be fixed.

Maybe if you didn't think of it as "fixing" him, but bettering his life, and present it to him that way, maybe he'll bite. If not, then it's up to you to leave or stay.

[shakra]

Originally Posted by Andrew Brunelle

You can't fix somebody who doesn't want to be fixed himself. The same way proud handicapped people refuse help getting groceries to their car, his pride perhaps keeps him from thinking he needs to be fixed.

Maybe if you didn't think of it as "fixing" him, but bettering his life, and present it to him that way, maybe he'll bite. If not, then it's up to you to leave or stay.

I understand what you mean... when I say "fix" I do mean assisting him to better his life.. by helping him understand people need to set personal goals in order to achieve things.. otherwise everything will be done tomorrow, next week, next month etc..

I'm not going anywhere... I used to threaten to leave him all the time.. but we are way past that point now... We agreed long ago to not use that as a threat as it's not fair... but I feel that I am powering ahead and he is going to be left behind...

I just want to assist him in gettin to a point where discussions based on our goals and personal/spiritual development will flow freely.. without him feeling like I'm attacking him or putting him down..

he has so much potential... he could be financially rich above and beyond his comprehension.. but I dont think he believes in himself enough...



I got frustrated yesterday and sent him a link to the thread... so it will be interesting to see how much of it he reads, and what he thinks of the comments around him not recognising and nurturing my needs as well as his own..

which reminds me... someone gave him a money tree and some aloe vera.. I told him that he needed to plant it and nurture it.. but it sat in a bucket for three weeks, and I then felt sad energy coming from the plant as it was starting to die.. so I "had to" take the next day off work and repot all of my plants!

oh.. one more afterthought... I got home yesterday and he'd washed ALL of his clothes, the house was spotless and he even did the kitty litter!

he's so beautiful! I think he might be coming around...

[Lauxa]

On the "rummaging for clothes" thing... you could suggest to him to set out his clothes the night before so he won't be so rushed in the morning. Can't make him do it, but maybe he'd see a benefit.

Also, is there any time that you could set aside for talk? Maybe during dinner or over late-night cocktails or for a little while before you go to bed? When he is on the computer, absorbed in something else, is not the time for deep and meaningful conversation, but I think you know this.

I also want to hear what he is good at, what he brings to the relationship that you appreciate. Does he maintain the cars? Mow the yard? Fix the toilet? Make you laugh? Keep up with the news? List as many things as you can.

[legend]

If I may ask how old are you guys?
how long have you been living together?
Has he ever lived by himself?
Has he ever had to be 100% responsible for paying bills, cleaning house, making food?

It might be he depends on you because he never had to do it all by himself....
Rant On:
I think you two should live apart and let him become self reliant before joining as one.
If you plan on marriage I would be surprised if it ever happens living together....
If you see yourself spending the rest of your time here in this life with him I recommend marriage... Once you decide to be one everything becomes one....
One bank account.. One set of responsibilities that is shared... One vision on how to live (ie. where to live, how to spend money, kids, etc)

Rant Off:

These feelings you are having are signals telling you that you are not happy with your life the way it currently is.... This is a gift for you to look inside and make the needed changes not blame him.... He probably doesn't know any better
BE STRONG

Why do men clam up?
1. When we feel we are being spoken at instead of too. We feel like it's not a conversation and our feelings are not being validated or understood by you
2. Our logic is overcome by emotion usually anger and we don't know how to express rational thought
3. We are wrong... This can make us feel like less of a man
4. We are embarresed... this goes hand in hand with wrong but add the feeling we let you down
5. We think the conversation will lead to a fight
6. The situation is to personal... That is why you first need him to feel what you are feeling but not have those feelings connected to you

The way around this is to ask questions that have feelings attached....
Show him how to empathize with you. For example by asking him questions find a situation that would make him feel the way you are feeling.
Like.... Honey when you are waiting for a friend or coworker to do something they are responsible for and they let you down how does that make you feel? then just listen the next step is very important... repeat back to him what you just understood him to say..
Ohhh I see when they let you down you feel upset, angry, confused, stressed whatever his response is. Once he agrees that you fully understand then tie to your feelings...
Can't you see how I feel that way when you do______ You are my best friend and closest family....

Now he really understands how you feel and you can work on having an open talk to resolve issues

Much Love and Good Luck

[shakra]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

On the "rummaging for clothes" thing... you could suggest to him to set out his clothes the night before so he won't be so rushed in the morning. Can't make him do it, but maybe he'd see a benefit.

Also, is there any time that you could set aside for talk? Maybe during dinner or over late-night cocktails or for a little while before you go to bed? When he is on the computer, absorbed in something else, is not the time for deep and meaningful conversation, but I think you know this.

I also want to hear what he is good at, what he brings to the relationship that you appreciate. Does he maintain the cars? Mow the yard? Fix the toilet? Make you laugh? Keep up with the news? List as many things as you can.

I did a gentle suggestion last week about organising clothes the night before.. and he's off work today, so I think he'll probably sort them all out..

The good things my man brings to me are loyalty, laughs, good conversation, very interesting conversation that I cant have with others.. however.. usually this is only when he is particularly interested in the topic.. I'd like to get him to open his ears for some things such as talking about my ideas about spirituality etc.. I'd like to know what he thinks too... but all he seems to want to talk about is aliens, Nibiru, ancient Babalonion civilisations, civilisations in the centre of the earth, government conspiracy stuff. If it's not that, it's dark underworld/criminal type things he's interesting in reading about or talking about. That being said.. he brings a wealth of knowledge on these topics because he has been researching for years.


He brings a lot of love to our home.. and still after 10 years, we have a physical passion that sparks like fireworks..

We are so in-sync that he often says what I am about to say, and vice versa.. we love similar music.. but still have some different tastes as well.. we enjoy watching similar sports like skateboarding, surfing and all that stuff.. we talk a lot about art and we are both very creative in many ways..

he's a typical Taurus.. he WILL NOT do something he doesnt want to do.. and he changes very little..

I'm almost a typical virgo... I'm not always the neat freak.. but I tend to drift into a nag mode... but as I'm aware of it, I have it under a lot more control these days.


He's a great DJ! He is very talented and knows how to throw an awesome party with a smile on every single face!

Wanna see a photo of us... here you go:

I've got a wig on in fancy dress.. but he's a-la naturelle! hehe

[shakra]

well... I set out the time to talk...

and he didnt show up...


I think I need to leave...




this is the hardest decision I have EVER had to make...

[pyrogen]

Good luck to you. You're a pretty, young and insightful woman. I'm sure you'll come out of this better than you went in, please keep us up to date.

[Lauxa]

Good luck shakra, sometimes we need to let go of what's not working to make room for something even better.

[shakra]

well... the update is that I'm just concentrating on what's best for me right now...

i'm trying different methods of getting my message across.. but if someone doesnt really want to listen.. it doesnt matter how you communicate wtih them.. then hear what they want to hear.

I'm getting my independance back, which I think will be the thing that really hits home wtih him...


Right now I need to concentrate on supporting my best friend who has just been diagnosed with cancer... and I'm focussing on helping her through her healing process... I dont have the time or the energy to try and help someone who is not ready to be helped..

aarrgh! life!! it's like a game of poker... you win some you lose some!

[magi13]

It has become his habit. How he deals with you has become habitual and it seems to get the desired results he wished for. ^^, If you want things to change you have to think of the root thing that causes it.

Do you guys go to a marriage counselor? Even though your not married it'll be good.

I think you need to add more responsibility to your boy. Little responsibilities at first and follow it up with positive reinforcement if he gets it done.