Authentic Sensitivity and Avoiding "Nice Guy" Syndrome

[Yorick]

Hello,

I've read some very insightful posts on this board, and in my desire to improve myself, I thought I'd ask for a little feedback from those of you who'd like to give it.

I was never that good with dating when I was younger; I was always the "nice guy" in the worst sense of the term: overly friendly, appeasing, frightened of rejection or disapproval --- basically spineless and afraid to stand up for myself. Needless to say, I wasn't very successful with the ladies.

Despite this, I managed to have a series of relationships in my twenties and early thirties (some good, some bad), though I would sometimes go months or even years without dating. I seemed to get girlfriends "by accident" or through trial and error. Over time, I improved my ability to be in a healthy relationship, even if I had no clue how to attract women.

I read some of the "Pickup Community" stuff a few years back, and found it very useful in one respect: it allowed me to see how social dynamics worked and to observe and recognize reactions and behaviors in real time. It didn't help me too much with attracting women, because I wasn't able to get past my blocks and develop confidence in myself. In addition, the uber-masculine, alpha-male PUA role simply felt false -- it wasn't bad, but it was a bad fit for me. I could get away with a touch of it here and there, but it didn't feel congruent with my true nature. (I also suspect that a lot of the PUA techniques tend to work better on emotionally immature "drama-seeking" women (not my type), but that's a separate issue.)

So, a few years later, I'm now in my mid-30's and a little better at flirting and playing with attraction, etc., but I couldn't go out to a club and successfully "game" women. That's OK; I'm a bit old for the club scene, and I never liked it even when I was younger. I've dated a bit over the past few years, meeting people through friends.

I'm now dating someone I've genuinely fallen in love with, she feels the same, and we seem to be a great match on all levels. I'm really happy about this, but I'd also like to make this relationship work long term, and I think I need to avoid some of the mistakes I've made in the past. In the pure "healthy psychological relationship" area, I've got no problems (that I know of), but in the more primal masculine/feminine attraction area, I'd like to improve. I'm not worried about creating attraction; I just want to be sure that I don't end up slowly killing the attraction that's already there -- I know that people can get "too comfortable" in a relationship and suck the life out of it.

I'm generalizing here and I know that everyone has their own individual preferences, but I do believe that women, on average, are more attracted to men who are dominant (NOT domineering), confident, strong, etc. (a brief study of evolutionary psychology shows that there are good reasons for this rooted in the survival of the individual and the species). I tend to be naturally more "yin" than most men -- not effeminate, but more on the emotionally sensitive side. So, even though I no longer want to behave like a supplicating, manipulative, "nice guy" doormat, some of my behavior may appear that way from the outside.

Bear with my explanation here: I want to be strong and confident enough to be true to my authentic self, without compromise. This is stereotypically "masculine". My authentic self is emotionally sensitive and in some ways stereotypically "feminine". So, in being "masculine" and true to myself, I end up being sensitive, kind, and considerate of other's feelings. So far so good. Problem: externally, my behavior appears to be that of "nice guy" manipulation and approval seeking, which appears weak and can slowly drain the attraction from a relationship. (This type of behavior has been destructive to some of my relationships in the past, but at that time I was being a supplicating doormat, rather than what I am trying to be now.)

I am aware that this is all in my head right now, and I may be worrying about this too much or imagining catastrophe, but I'm really just trying to break old and unhelpful patterns before they cause any problems in my real-world-currently-great-but-relatively-new relationship.

I guess I'm looking to be a "sensitive guy" while also being strong and authentic, and I want to keep the dynamic of attraction and the interplay of masculine and feminine energy. So, do you think this is possible, or is it a pipe dream?

Any thoughts? (Anyone make it through the whole post? )

[Anand Dhillon]

I don't really see a conflict between being sensitive and being dominant. Perhaps you just need to spend some time developing your strength since you've had years of practice developing your sensitivity.

Have you read Steve's book? Seems to me that you are strongly aligned with love but are weak in your power.

I would suggest reading over the chapters on power and authority and seeing how you can apply those principles to your own life.

[Anna Conlan]

I guess I'm looking to be a "sensitive guy" while also being strong and authentic, and I want to keep the dynamic of attraction and the interplay of masculine and feminine energy. So, do you think this is possible, or is it a pipe dream?

Of course it's possible.

The most important thing is that you be yourself and if that means you're more sensitive and considerate of others' feelings than some other men, then so be it. If she is a good match for you, she'll love that about you.

I'd say that your yin is only out of balance when you start having problems asserting yourself, when you do things even when you don't want to do them, just because you can't say no. It's not good when men (or women for that matter) are so people-pleasing that they put themselves last and override their own desires so that others approve of them. If you're doing that, then she probably won't find that attractive but more importantly, you'll also be doing yourself a disservice.

But from what you have written, it sounds like that was in the past?

[cylon]

Hey Yorick.

Originally Posted by Yorick

I guess I'm looking to be a "sensitive guy" while also being strong and authentic, and I want to keep the dynamic of attraction and the interplay of masculine and feminine energy. So, do you think this is possible, or is it a pipe dream?

Any thoughts? (Anyone make it through the whole post? )

You're stuck between two worlds. You've been the supplicating, nice guy for so long it's ingrained. By contrast, your newfound enthusiasm for masculinity is conflicting with your dominant sense of self that has been 30+ years in the making.

This is called cognitive dissonance. When you challenge an old sense of self with a new one, there is bound to be an internal conflict. It's not comfortable.

In your post I can see that you realize your new way of seeing the world has gotten you results, but you're afraid of lapsing into the old ways. This is only because you haven't spent enough time really seeing yourself as a man who has changed his self-image.

Constant reinforcement. You are on the right track. But, you are a human being. Being masculine and dominant is not about being "insensitive" or not having natural human emotions like love and compassion.

There is no black and white. It's not "nice guy" or "arrogant jerk". There is a middle ground. You have to have experienced both extremes to truly grasp the difference between the two. And perhaps you know that both extremes are in fact approval seeking ways of life, the only difference is the approach.

Give yourself permission. Give yourself permission to have high standards. To expect good treatment from the women in your life. To not settle for less. None of these are consistent with supplicating behavior.

You truly have to put yourself first. Because you are the most important person in your life--not her. She has to EARN a place in your heart. And this is not done by you seeking her approval.

Let's flip this whole thing around: it's based on her seeking YOUR approval.

Can you handle putting yourself first? Can you handle sticking up for yourself and making it clear either covertly or overtly that you will be treated with respect--no exceptions? Are you strong enough to be a "real Man"--being in control and dominant when it's called for, and being more laid back and affectionate when that's called for? Different circumstances will call for different responses.

Can you make her WORK to earn YOUR APPROVAL? Are you willing to walk away if you don't get what you want?

What do you EXPECT from her? You love her--why? Is it because she treats you better than other women? Or is it because you don't want to be alone?

[SupersecretIdentity]

Check out rsdnation.com it's a PUA forum but it's slanted more towards a personal development/self actualization angle where you work on your "inner game" as opposed to dumb little tricks and gimmicks that a lot of people hear about. A lot of it is about club type attraction so I don't think it will apply to you 100%, especially the parts about how to get into one night stands. However, there are a lot of really insightful gems on that forum from some really socially calibrated guys. It's work checking out, just make sure to dig for what you are looking for and don't get too sidetracked, there is a LOT of advice on it.

[Eisho]

In my experience girls want a more dominant guy to go out and catch them in the first place but once the relationship is established they prefer a more sensitive guy that they can live their life with.

Cheers,
Eisho

[sepiagal]

I've read that the problem with nice guys is that they are so reliable they can be boring and predictable.

Being a bad boy means you are a wild card; no one knows for sure what you may do. That's exciting to a partner.

It can be helpful to act out of character at times. Nothing extreme or rude but consider saying no if you always say yes. If you always say yes - being the nice guy - you may be perceived as a doormat. And don't feel compelled to give an explanation for not saying yes. If you say no sometimes you will be appreciated more when you do say yes.

If you always call at a certain time try not calling and see how she reacts. This is how people get into a rut.

If you're boring and predictable you may be taken for granted. It can be good to shake things up sometimes. Show her you have many sides to you.

Taking control is important when it comes to planning and executing dates. No woman wants to have to take over the date planning because the guy falls down on the job. And again don't fall into a boring pattern of going out to dinner and or a movie. Be willing to try different things.

I thought The Art of Seduction was an interesting read.

Another concept from the book was if you are always available then your time may not seem as precious as someone who has a busier life or schedule. So it is possible to give too much of yourself in terms of your time. Don't neglect to spend some quality time away from your mate. That way you may have something interesting to talk about when you do get together. No one likes being smothered in a relationship so make a point of keeping time outside the relationship in your schedule. Don't neglect your friends or hobbies because you have a steady GF.

Also, saying everything on your mind is not always good. This makes you seem transparent. Holding some part of yourself back can help add to the mystery.

Those who say very little can be perceived as more interesting then someone who has diarrhea of the mouth.

Moderation is key. Just because something gets positive feedback doesn't mean you should use it all of the time. Break things up.

[striving4peace]

DISCLAIMER : RANT AHEAD:
I'm sorry but I'm just so fed up of this paradigm. Yes, I'm exactly like the thread starter - the nice guy, initially a doormat, but later at least a little assertive, never seduced a woman or picked one up, always the one who was left behind while the bad boys were chosen over me. The same girls who chose the bad boys and had thier fun, but these same girls later came back to me, leaned on me heavily for support after they were broken by the bad boys and fell in love, and even asked me to marry them, because at the end of the day nice guys do offer stability, protection, safety, love. It's a topic that's been hashed to death lately, David De angelo's taken the part of the female's entire set of phases that interested him - the mating part: the part where he knows what the woman is attracted to so he and all the other PUA's could be part of that part of the cycle that was most beneficial to them: getting laid.
Am I the only one fed up here of feeling punished because I was a 'nice person'? And by nice person I mean that I wanted to be humane, see and respect other human beings, be the friend and helper that I myself never had when I was targetted by other bad boys growing up for being that generally nice. My 'nice guy' qualities were only reinforced by the disgust I had at the hurt and crap the bad boys did. To me or to anybody else.
Yes, a million things can be said about my life as a case study, that my insecurities, my lack of confidence and a lot of other things forced me into being nice as a mask - but I beg to differ. I'm nice to everyone naturally - it's who I am, and I decided to be true to myself - even if it meant forgoeing the trump card in the seduction of women in a game that reduces them to objects that need to be won over in a pissing contest with other guys, in a society that gives kudos to the guy who shows he can satisfy his lust the most and calls him manly.
If that is what it means to be a 'real man' then I would honestly rather be a good human being, who aids those in help, who is nice to those around him, who dies and looks back on the differences he has made instead of the number of girls he's taken to bed. Maybe I would have had a lot less fun in my life, but I didn't sell out my 'nice' nature, just so women would be more attracted to me in the phase of thier life where they are subconciously looking for the best genetic material to seed them.

[funchy]

My rant:
Why does everyone think "nice" means "doormat"? Those words do not mean the same thing. If you think they do, you don't know what "nice" means.

One can be very kind, altruistic, self-sacrificing, and moral... but also have clear boundaries and inspire respect.



Yorick -- Congrats on finding a nice partner! Maybe the problem is that something you're doing is coming across as weak and clingy and it's eroding the respect the other person has in you? Or perhaps you're accepting the other person not trying you as you deserve, and as time goes on, they take more and more?

Part of it too is the kind of person you tend to be attracted to. People who tend to be doormats often have a pattern of being drawn to the same kind of person. Maybe they're comfortable being treated a little unfairly because that's how badly they see themselves? If this relationship doesn't work out, perhaps you can examine this idea further.

[garentee]

Originally Posted by striving4peace

DISCLAIMER : RANT AHEAD:
I'm sorry but I'm just so fed up of this paradigm. Yes, I'm exactly like the thread starter - the nice guy, initially a doormat, but later at least a little assertive, never seduced a woman or picked one up, always the one who was left behind while the bad boys were chosen over me. The same girls who chose the bad boys and had thier fun, but these same girls later came back to me, leaned on me heavily for support after they were broken by the bad boys and fell in love, and even asked me to marry them, because at the end of the day nice guys do offer stability, protection, safety, love. It's a topic that's been hashed to death lately, David De angelo's taken the part of the female's entire set of phases that interested him - the mating part: the part where he knows what the woman is attracted to so he and all the other PUA's could be part of that part of the cycle that was most beneficial to them: getting laid.
Am I the only one fed up here of feeling punished because I was a 'nice person'? And by nice person I mean that I wanted to be humane, see and respect other human beings, be the friend and helper that I myself never had when I was targetted by other bad boys growing up for being that generally nice. My 'nice guy' qualities were only reinforced by the disgust I had at the hurt and crap the bad boys did. To me or to anybody else.
Yes, a million things can be said about my life as a case study, that my insecurities, my lack of confidence and a lot of other things forced me into being nice as a mask - but I beg to differ. I'm nice to everyone naturally - it's who I am, and I decided to be true to myself - even if it meant forgoeing the trump card in the seduction of women in a game that reduces them to objects that need to be won over in a pissing contest with other guys, in a society that gives kudos to the guy who shows he can satisfy his lust the most and calls him manly.
If that is what it means to be a 'real man' then I would honestly rather be a good human being, who aids those in help, who is nice to those around him, who dies and looks back on the differences he has made instead of the number of girls he's taken to bed. Maybe I would have had a lot less fun in my life, but I didn't sell out my 'nice' nature, just so women would be more attracted to me in the phase of thier life where they are subconciously looking for the best genetic material to seed them.

I have to agree with you on several of those points... I mean what is wrong with being yourself? If you are a genuine person it is hard to try and be the arrogant jerk that David D suggests... He certainly has a real good grasp on a lot of ways to be in social settings...The most pertinent thing he says is to be truly confident and get in touch with your inner game.... nothing wrong with that.. after all that is what a lot of this forum is all about. You can be a nice guy and be successful with women if you believe in yourself.... Frankly if a woman is turned off by the fact that I am acting in my normal manner, why would I want to hang out with her? It is a pain in the arse for her and it does not do me any favors.... Hang with people who want you around...my$.02....G

[Yorick]

Hey Cylon,

You've asked a few pointed questions -- good! it will help me clarify things in my own head.

Originally Posted by cylon

Can you handle putting yourself first? Can you handle sticking up for yourself and making it clear either covertly or overtly that you will be treated with respect--no exceptions?

I tend to avoid confrontation, but if it comes down to it, I'm won't tolerate being treated badly. To me, than doesn't mean flipping out at the first sign of inconsiderate behavior, just calmly recognizing what my limits are and sticking with them. In this case, if she started treating me badly (rude, selfish, inconsiderate, etc.), my first reaction would be genuine surprise and puzzlement, followed by a desire to figure out what was really going on with her; this type of behavior is so out of character for her that it would signal something really wrong.

Originally Posted by cylon

Are you strong enough to be a "real Man"--being in control and dominant when it's called for, and being more laid back and affectionate when that's called for? Different circumstances will call for different responses.

Dominance is not something I'm comfortable with. I don't like to lead others. That being said, I don't like to follow others either. I think it's a good idea to step up every now and then, so I will actively "take the lead" sometimes, but I see it as a chore I have to remind myself to perform.

Originally Posted by cylon

Can you make her WORK to earn YOUR APPROVAL? Are you willing to walk away if you don't get what you want?

This seems too much like politicking to me. I'm not trying to make her WORK just for the sake of working. I give approval when I approve, and I approve when someone does something that sparks that approval in me. I can't really explain the "whys" of it.

I wouldn't walk away without first asking myself what was truly important to me, whether or not it was present in the relationship, and whether or not it was worth compromising over. I certainly wouldn't walk at the first sign of a frustrated whim.
I AM very flexible and willing to compromise, but I do have some core issues that I will not compromise on -- if it came down to it, I would leave with regret, but only after doing everything I could to find a solution.

Originally Posted by cylon

What do you EXPECT from her? You love her--why? Is it because she treats you better than other women? Or is it because you don't want to be alone?

I don't want to be alone, and I've stayed in lifeless relationships in the past for that very reason, but it's not the case here.

I love her because: 1. I am physically attracted to her, 2. she is smart, fun, interesting, and insightful --- the kind of person I'd be great friends with if we weren't dating, 3. she is compassionate and considerate of others, loyal to her friends, family and loved ones, 4. I feel good when I'm around her, not just because of what she does, but being near her lifts my mood and relaxes me -- my mind is clearer and the flow energy in my body (chi/prana) changes, 5. We just "click" in so many ways -- physically, mentally, emotionally and energetically.

So, this one's a keeper! I just want to avoid some of my past destructive behaviors so I don't ruin a good thing.

[Yorick]

Thanks for the congrats!

I don't think "nice" has to mean doormat, but I know I was being a doormat when I only thought I was being "nice".

I don't think I'm being a doormat now; I just want to avoid turning into one!

Originally Posted by funchy

My rant:
Why does everyone think "nice" means "doormat"? Those words do not mean the same thing. If you think they do, you don't know what "nice" means.

One can be very kind, altruistic, self-sacrificing, and moral... but also have clear boundaries and inspire respect.



Yorick -- Congrats on finding a nice partner! Maybe the problem is that something you're doing is coming across as weak and clingy and it's eroding the respect the other person has in you? Or perhaps you're accepting the other person not trying you as you deserve, and as time goes on, they take more and more?

Part of it too is the kind of person you tend to be attracted to. People who tend to be doormats often have a pattern of being drawn to the same kind of person. Maybe they're comfortable being treated a little unfairly because that's how badly they see themselves? If this relationship doesn't work out, perhaps you can examine this idea further.

[Yorick]

Yeah, I never felt at home with the "bad boy" stuff either. I did find the PUA ideas useful though, even if I didn't actively use them; they allowed me to really observe how social interactions work. It was cool to suddenly see things right in front of me that I'd been unaware of or insensitive to in the past.

Originally Posted by striving4peace

DISCLAIMER : RANT AHEAD:
I'm sorry but I'm just so fed up of this paradigm. Yes, I'm exactly like the thread starter - the nice guy, initially a doormat, but later at least a little assertive, never seduced a woman or picked one up, always the one who was left behind while the bad boys were chosen over me. The same girls who chose the bad boys and had thier fun, but these same girls later came back to me, leaned on me heavily for support after they were broken by the bad boys and fell in love, and even asked me to marry them, because at the end of the day nice guys do offer stability, protection, safety, love. It's a topic that's been hashed to death lately, David De angelo's taken the part of the female's entire set of phases that interested him - the mating part: the part where he knows what the woman is attracted to so he and all the other PUA's could be part of that part of the cycle that was most beneficial to them: getting laid.
Am I the only one fed up here of feeling punished because I was a 'nice person'? And by nice person I mean that I wanted to be humane, see and respect other human beings, be the friend and helper that I myself never had when I was targetted by other bad boys growing up for being that generally nice. My 'nice guy' qualities were only reinforced by the disgust I had at the hurt and crap the bad boys did. To me or to anybody else.
Yes, a million things can be said about my life as a case study, that my insecurities, my lack of confidence and a lot of other things forced me into being nice as a mask - but I beg to differ. I'm nice to everyone naturally - it's who I am, and I decided to be true to myself - even if it meant forgoeing the trump card in the seduction of women in a game that reduces them to objects that need to be won over in a pissing contest with other guys, in a society that gives kudos to the guy who shows he can satisfy his lust the most and calls him manly.
If that is what it means to be a 'real man' then I would honestly rather be a good human being, who aids those in help, who is nice to those around him, who dies and looks back on the differences he has made instead of the number of girls he's taken to bed. Maybe I would have had a lot less fun in my life, but I didn't sell out my 'nice' nature, just so women would be more attracted to me in the phase of thier life where they are subconciously looking for the best genetic material to seed them.

[Yorick]

Thanks everyone. I appreciate all the responses and ideas, even if I didn't respond directly to your post. Cheers!

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Yorick

I'm not worried about creating attraction; I just want to be sure that I don't end up slowly killing the attraction that's already there -- I know that people can get "too comfortable" in a relationship and suck the life out of it.

That is an interesting thought, and I think that you saying that drives towards a different issue of keeping things fresh and not so much the issue of turning back into nice guy and ruining everything.

What would be tragic is if your relationship loses its initial drive and you blame yourself for it somehow. The statement: I just want to be sure that I don't end up slowly killing the attraction, raises a lot of red flags, and it is worth asking why you would shoulder all the weight of possible doom? And if the insecurity has any benefit? To me if you forget this one worry, if you simply take things as they are, when they are, then you will solve all your problems.

In regards to balancing your sensitive side I would suggest try to slowly introduce it and sees what happens, a scientific approach to the new you. Trial and error. In the end, you have to be who you are, without being needy. There is a thread on this issue here:
How do you be secure in a relationship (and in yourself) and not be needy?

[Yorick]

I don't think I should necessarily "shoulder all the weight of a possible doom", but I can only be responsible for my own behavior, not for hers. I'm trying to prevent myself from behaving in a way that has been habitual in the past, but I can't worry about what she might or might not do, as it is beyond my control.

The emphasis on keeping things fresh was helpful -- a good way to focus on this without triggering any kneejerk reactive panic garbage in my head. I'm glad you (and others) mentioned it.

My sensitive side has already been introduced; it's part of who I am and is very visible. So far, it seems to be in balance with the rest of me, which is how I'd like to keep it. In the past, it's been all sensitivity and no strength, especially when relationships get "comfortable".

I think a lot of guys start out strong or unyielding, and slowly soften and open up over time. I used to start out soft and sensitive and get softer and more sensitive. I'm OK with sensitive; I just want it in it's proper measure, rather than me turning into Sensitive Ponytail Man (sans ponytail).

I guess I'm not naturally comfortable with my own strength or power.

Originally Posted by Boreas

That is an interesting thought, and I think that you saying that drives towards a different issue of keeping things fresh and not so much the issue of turning back into nice guy and ruining everything.

What would be tragic is if your relationship loses its initial drive and you blame yourself for it somehow. The statement: I just want to be sure that I don't end up slowly killing the attraction, raises a lot of red flags, and it is worth asking why you would shoulder all the weight of possible doom? And if the insecurity has any benefit? To me if you forget this one worry, if you simply take things as they are, when they are, then you will solve all your problems.

In regards to balancing your sensitive side I would suggest try to slowly introduce it and sees what happens, a scientific approach to the new you. Trial and error. In the end, you have to be who you are, without being needy. There is a thread on this issue here:
How do you be secure in a relationship (and in yourself) and not be needy?

[Cyllya]

A few things to note about the "women don't like nice guys" idea.

First, when someone does something nice for you, you tend to feel obligated to return the favor someway. If you wanted to do someone nice for that person anyway, everything's all good: you now have an excuse. But if you don't have the money, don't have the time, or just don't like the person enough to want to put forth the effort, feeling obligated to do something nice for them makes you unhappy. The fact that they did it just to make you happy and are not expecting anything in return does not fix this. (This shouldn't effect you with family, close friends, or long-term marriage-like relationships, because over all the time you know each other, you figure you'll both do each other so many favors it's not worth keeping track and the score will even eventually.)

You could suck it up and return the favor or shrug off that nagging feeling of guilt a few times, but if someone is constantly throwing gifts at you or something, that person is going to make you feel pretty unhappy. If a person is consistently making someone else unhappy because they can't tell their actions are causing the unhappiness (much less predict the effect in advance), that's called being insensitive. (Or manipulative.)

How much niceness results in the maximum happiness (attraction) of the other person is dependent upon a ton of factors, but I think more sensitivity equals a better ability to figure it out. I suppose if you're worried about getting to "comfortable" in your relationship, this is a handy thing to stress out about.

Also, a lot of the guys you hear complaining about the fact that women don't like nice guys aren't actually very nice guys. Their complaints can be paraphrased as, "I'm good-looking, athletic, funny, and have a great personality--oh, yeah, I'm humble too. I'd have to practically beat women off me with sticks all the time if they didn't all have such bad taste. I'd treat this woman like the queen she is (e.g. how little old ladies treat a spoiled grandchild or a cute little pet lapdog), so I don't know why she insists on dating that jerk who's always going to treat her like a mentally stable human adult!" Sounds like a total sweetheart, right?

Also...

My rant:
Why does everyone think "nice" means "doormat"? Those words do not mean the same thing. If you think they do, you don't know what "nice" means.

...some people you hear saying "women don't like nice guys" are trying to make money giving you dating advice. (Selling you a book, attracting you to a web site where they have ads, etc.) They'll probably have trouble selling a book called "Dating Advice for Whiny, Supplicating Doormats" because many people prefer not to think of themselves as a whiny, supplicating doormat. So they call their advice something like "Dating Advice for Nice Guys" and tell you to how to be a "jerk" (by which they mean someone who isn't a whiny, supplicating doormat). Not only do they compliment the customer by calling him "nice," but they earn bonus points by calling his more successful competition, with whom he is probably bitter, "jerks."

Yorick, something about your use of the word "attraction" makes me suspect you're getting your info from those sources (perhaps indirectly), so to make sure you have the right perspective, take a look at a gender-swapped version. Think about a "nice girl" versus a "♥♥♥♥♥." What personality traits would you expect a woman to have if she were accurately described by one of those labels? The girl you're in love with, which one is she?

Now, read this article about a book called Why Men Marry Bitches. Or, I'll summarize it for you.

Here's the qualities of someone who is a "♥♥♥♥♥":
-She is a "confident, secure woman"
-Has her own life, makes her own plans, and doesn't "let him win all the time".
-Doesn't let a guy get away with cheating on her.
-Has a backbone when feeling strongly about something.
-Doesn't mention marriage (seems to be referring to early in the relationship)

Here's the qualities of someone who is a "nice girl":
-Stops expressing her opinion and agrees with everything her man says
-Tends to chase him down at three different places where he said he might be having a drink
-Can be summed up by her boyfriend in one sentence
-Says whiny things like "You don't call me enough," or, "You never tell me you love me."
-Has no backbone, is a "a 'melba toast' cracker that crumbles with very little pressure."
-Sees a guy every night (for sex?)

Are those the qualities you thought of when I asked you to think of what "♥♥♥♥♥" and "nice girl" meant? If you used this book's definitions of the terms, which would you call your girlfriend?

I'm not saying the advice this book or the made-for-men equivalents (things by David De Angelo, etc) isn't valuable, because it boils down to "don't be a whiny, supplicating doormat" and a lot of people need to be fed that concept, but don't let their weird terminology confuse you.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Yorick

I guess I'm not naturally comfortable with my own strength or power.

Good point. I think a lot of people fall in love with themselves as victims and the last thing they want is the key to their cell. In fact, probably everyone is this way to some degree, and it occurs to me that I have never taken time to write down what my strength and powers are, and it would be good to make such a list, so sorry if this is off-topic, but here goes:

1. Open-minded
2. Analytical
3. Can sprint (a bit)
4. X-ray vision

OK this is tough, but it is worth working on, and I guess another thing is that strengths depend on situation...

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Cyllya

Here's the qualities of someone who is a "♥♥♥♥♥":
-She is a "confident, secure woman"
-Has her own life, makes her own plans, and doesn't "let him win all the time".
-Doesn't let a guy get away with cheating on her.
-Has a backbone when feeling strongly about something.
-Doesn't mention marriage (seems to be referring to early in the relationship)

-Practices her slap on a brick wall ten times daily.

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Cyllya

A few things to note about the "women don't like nice guys" idea.
...
If a person is consistently making someone else unhappy because they can't tell their actions are causing the unhappiness (much less predict the effect in advance), that's called being insensitive. (Or manipulative.)

Yeah, this is what I don't want to be.

Originally Posted by Cyllya

...
Think about a "nice girl" versus a "♥♥♥♥♥." What personality traits would you expect a woman to have if she were accurately described by one of those labels? The girl you're in love with, which one is she?
...
Here's the qualities of someone who is a "♥♥♥♥♥":
-She is a "confident, secure woman"
-Has her own life, makes her own plans, and doesn't "let him win all the time".
-Doesn't let a guy get away with cheating on her.
-Has a backbone when feeling strongly about something.
-Doesn't mention marriage (seems to be referring to early in the relationship)

Here's the qualities of someone who is a "nice girl":
-Stops expressing her opinion and agrees with everything her man says
-Tends to chase him down at three different places where he said he might be having a drink
-Can be summed up by her boyfriend in one sentence
-Says whiny things like "You don't call me enough," or, "You never tell me you love me."
-Has no backbone, is a "a 'melba toast' cracker that crumbles with very little pressure."
-Sees a guy every night (for sex?)

Are those the qualities you thought of when I asked you to think of what "♥♥♥♥♥" and "nice girl" meant? If you used this book's definitions of the terms, which would you call your girlfriend?
...

My girlfriend fits the "♥♥♥♥♥" description written above (even though there's nothing bitchy about her) better than the "nice girl" description, without the "power play" for dominance aspect; there doesn't seem to be any jockeying for control or respect between us, because everything seems to flow naturally and easily. We're bound to disagree or butt heads at some point on something (I assume), but even then I can't see it being a "dig in your heels and fight" kind of thing.

Also, I strongly disagree with that definition of the term "♥♥♥♥♥". When I hear "♥♥♥♥♥", I think nasty belittling harpy --- imagine dating Ann Coulter.

[Yorick]

Well, things still seem to be going really well with us, and I don't feel like I'm needing to behave in a way that feels unnatural to me. I'm not trying to exercise power or dominance, but I'm feeling stronger just by making the decision to act in a way that feels more authentic.

I wonder, does the intent behind an action change the way others react to it?

If I act "nice" because "Dammit I want to be nice and that's who I am and I won't compromise" vs. acting the same way because "Oh I want her to like me and I better impress her", is the same behavior perceived differently by others?

[Boreas]

If I understand what you are asking, then I would say that intent tends to come through. You can usually tell when someone is being genuine.

[rbhambha]

Originally Posted by Yorick

Well, things still seem to be going really well with us, and I don't feel like I'm needing to behave in a way that feels unnatural to me. I'm not trying to exercise power or dominance, but I'm feeling stronger just by making the decision to act in a way that feels more authentic.

I wonder, does the intent behind an action change the way others react to it?

If I act "nice" because "Dammit I want to be nice and that's who I am and I won't compromise" vs. acting the same way because "Oh I want her to like me and I better impress her", is the same behavior perceived differently by others?

Absolutely, the volition of your mind shines through your actions. People have the uncanny ability of being able to detect the true motive behind behavior. This motive is an offspring of your perspective of the situation, which ties directly into your beliefs. That's why success in this area is so dependent on shaping your beliefs, rather than targeting behaviors by learning manipulative tricks and the like.

Shift your paradigm, and ultimately your behaviors will shift with it. People will pick up on it and understand that it isn't just a farce, but instead, the real you.

Hope this makes sense.

[Halffull]

Maybe you're a little more naturally feminine than masculine?

In which case, you'll probably end up with a girl who is a bit more masculine.

On the other hand, if you can't be dominant when you need to be, that's a problem. There's a certain level of self deception that could be going on here.

[Alexjstrandberg]

Hey,

this is a post that I have been working on that is NOT finished. It might help gain insight into your situation.

"

You have listened to her complain about the jerk who treated her badly countless times only to watch her go out with him again and again. All of your selfless acts fall to the wayside only to hear about her mistreatment the following week. You are left in pit of desperation and confusing as the mantra “nice guy's finish last” repeats in your head. “When will she wake up? When will she realize that there is a nice guy who will treat her the way she deserves to be treated sitting right here?”

She will never realize this because you aren't in fact a nice guy. Appearances can be deceiving and the nice guy act is one of the biggest deceptions around. On the surface nice guys appear to be selfless, kind, caring human beings but this is far from the truth. Beneath their generous acts and humble words lurks something darker. A dark side few nice guys care to admit because nice guys aren't really that nice.

Here is the truth about “nice” guys:

Nice Guys avoid conflict.

Nice Guys are often more comfortable relating to women than to men.

Nice Guys hold contempt for women.

Nice Guys have difficulty making their needs a priority.

Nice Guys lack conviction in their opinions or beliefs. Typically they will wait and see what the popular opinion is before taking a stand. If a rift happens in the group they will wait to see who is winning before taking a side.

Nice Guys will drop their beliefs in order to be liked.

Nice Guys lack loyalty. They develop a cameleon type of behavior when interacting with others. If one member of a group doesn't like another the nice guy will take on the belief of whoever they around. One day they will talk badly of one member and the next they will reverse their opinion.

Nice Guys are dishonest. They hide their mistakes and say what they think people want to hear. They will say pretty much anything to gain the approval of others.

Nice Guys are secretive. They are so driven to seek approval they will hide anything they believe might upset anyone.

Nice Guys are manipulative. They have hard time making their needs a priority and have difficulty asking for what they want clearly, so they feel powerless and result to manipulation.

Nice Guys are controlling, in order to keep their world smooth.

Nice Guys give to get, and expect some kind of reciprocation.

Nice Guys are passive-aggressive.

Nice Guys are full of rage, a rage which tends to erupt at some of the most unexpected and seemingly inappropriate times.
Nice Guys have difficulty setting boundaries, and instead feel like victims.

Nice Guys are attracted to people and situations that need fixing.

Nice Guys are terrible listeners because they are too busy trying to figure out how to defend themselves or fix the other person’s problem.

Nice Guys form relationships with partners who are “projects” or “diamonds in the rough.”

And Nice Guys tend to swing back and forth between the nice side and the dark side.



If you have found yourself in any of these qualities odds are that you are a “nice” guy. While nice guys do have some redeeming qualities, overall they lack mature emotional balance. Their overall theme in life is one of seeking approval. They want everyone to like them because on a fundamental level they don't like themselves. They reach out for the approval of others because they aren't content with their own approval.

Try to win them all and you will win NO ONE.

NO MATTER what you do NOT EVERYONE will like you. You can't please the entire crowd so it's not worth the effort. There are some people that will despise you because of your desire to be liked. You are playing a game that you can never win.

Every time you try to be a nice guy at the cost of your integrity or your honesty you are hurting yourself. Honesty, integrity and courage are at the core of confidence and high self esteem. Every time you sacrifice one of these things you are chipping away at your self esteem. Do this long enough and there will be nothing left.

Approval will come and go but at the end of the day you are left with one person and one person alone...yourself. When you close your eyes at night the approval that you gained from being a nice guy will be gone.

"

[kpreston]

Originally Posted by Alexjstrandberg

Here is the truth about “nice” guys:

Nice Guys avoid conflict.

Nice Guys are often more comfortable relating to women than to men.

Nice Guys hold contempt for women.

Nice Guys have difficulty making their needs a priority.

Nice Guys lack conviction in their opinions or beliefs. Typically they will wait and see what the popular opinion is before taking a stand. If a rift happens in the group they will wait to see who is winning before taking a side.

Nice Guys will drop their beliefs in order to be liked.

Nice Guys lack loyalty. They develop a cameleon type of behavior when interacting with others. If one member of a group doesn't like another the nice guy will take on the belief of whoever they around. One day they will talk badly of one member and the next they will reverse their opinion.

Nice Guys are dishonest. They hide their mistakes and say what they think people want to hear. They will say pretty much anything to gain the approval of others.

Nice Guys are secretive. They are so driven to seek approval they will hide anything they believe might upset anyone.

Nice Guys are manipulative. They have hard time making their needs a priority and have difficulty asking for what they want clearly, so they feel powerless and result to manipulation.

Nice Guys are controlling, in order to keep their world smooth.

Nice Guys give to get, and expect some kind of reciprocation.

Nice Guys are passive-aggressive.

Nice Guys are full of rage, a rage which tends to erupt at some of the most unexpected and seemingly inappropriate times.
Nice Guys have difficulty setting boundaries, and instead feel like victims.

Nice Guys are attracted to people and situations that need fixing.

Nice Guys are terrible listeners because they are too busy trying to figure out how to defend themselves or fix the other person’s problem.

Nice Guys form relationships with partners who are “projects” or “diamonds in the rough.”

And Nice Guys tend to swing back and forth between the nice side and the dark side.

I kind of hate myself more than usual now.

[Halffull]

... And sometimes nice guys are just nice.

what you're describing here is a classic nice guy, who uses his niceness as an excuse, a way to fit in socially, and a mask. Basically, they have made an ego out of being a nice guy.

There is a second set of nice guys tho. You might call them "principle centered nice guys." These are guys who make the CHOICE to be nice, and treat people nicely, because they think it is the right thing to do. They know how to be assertive when other's are not being nice to them, but they know they can only do this if they themselves are nice. They place prime importance on making others feel comfortable and included... because they think it's the right thing to do.

It's up to kpreston to determine for himself whether he's being self-deceptive, or is genuinely being nice because that is his belief... but to automatically lump every nice guy into the first category is erroneous.

Originally Posted by Alexjstrandberg

Hey,

this is a post that I have been working on that is NOT finished. It might help gain insight into your situation.

"

You have listened to her complain about the jerk who treated her badly countless times only to watch her go out with him again and again. All of your selfless acts fall to the wayside only to hear about her mistreatment the following week. You are left in pit of desperation and confusing as the mantra “nice guy's finish last” repeats in your head. “When will she wake up? When will she realize that there is a nice guy who will treat her the way she deserves to be treated sitting right here?”

She will never realize this because you aren't in fact a nice guy. Appearances can be deceiving and the nice guy act is one of the biggest deceptions around. On the surface nice guys appear to be selfless, kind, caring human beings but this is far from the truth. Beneath their generous acts and humble words lurks something darker. A dark side few nice guys care to admit because nice guys aren't really that nice.

Here is the truth about “nice” guys:

Nice Guys avoid conflict.

Nice Guys are often more comfortable relating to women than to men.

Nice Guys hold contempt for women.

Nice Guys have difficulty making their needs a priority.

Nice Guys lack conviction in their opinions or beliefs. Typically they will wait and see what the popular opinion is before taking a stand. If a rift happens in the group they will wait to see who is winning before taking a side.

Nice Guys will drop their beliefs in order to be liked.

Nice Guys lack loyalty. They develop a cameleon type of behavior when interacting with others. If one member of a group doesn't like another the nice guy will take on the belief of whoever they around. One day they will talk badly of one member and the next they will reverse their opinion.

Nice Guys are dishonest. They hide their mistakes and say what they think people want to hear. They will say pretty much anything to gain the approval of others.

Nice Guys are secretive. They are so driven to seek approval they will hide anything they believe might upset anyone.

Nice Guys are manipulative. They have hard time making their needs a priority and have difficulty asking for what they want clearly, so they feel powerless and result to manipulation.

Nice Guys are controlling, in order to keep their world smooth.

Nice Guys give to get, and expect some kind of reciprocation.

Nice Guys are passive-aggressive.

Nice Guys are full of rage, a rage which tends to erupt at some of the most unexpected and seemingly inappropriate times.
Nice Guys have difficulty setting boundaries, and instead feel like victims.

Nice Guys are attracted to people and situations that need fixing.

Nice Guys are terrible listeners because they are too busy trying to figure out how to defend themselves or fix the other person’s problem.

Nice Guys form relationships with partners who are “projects” or “diamonds in the rough.”

And Nice Guys tend to swing back and forth between the nice side and the dark side.



If you have found yourself in any of these qualities odds are that you are a “nice” guy. While nice guys do have some redeeming qualities, overall they lack mature emotional balance. Their overall theme in life is one of seeking approval. They want everyone to like them because on a fundamental level they don't like themselves. They reach out for the approval of others because they aren't content with their own approval.

Try to win them all and you will win NO ONE.

NO MATTER what you do NOT EVERYONE will like you. You can't please the entire crowd so it's not worth the effort. There are some people that will despise you because of your desire to be liked. You are playing a game that you can never win.

Every time you try to be a nice guy at the cost of your integrity or your honesty you are hurting yourself. Honesty, integrity and courage are at the core of confidence and high self esteem. Every time you sacrifice one of these things you are chipping away at your self esteem. Do this long enough and there will be nothing left.

Approval will come and go but at the end of the day you are left with one person and one person alone...yourself. When you close your eyes at night the approval that you gained from being a nice guy will be gone.

"

[kpreston]

Originally Posted by Halffull

It's up to kpreston to determine for himself whether he's being self-deceptive, or is genuinely being nice because that is his belief... but to automatically lump every nice guy into the first category is erroneous.

I don't even know. I never sat down and told myself "I'm nice to people because it's the right thing to do." I just kind of am who I am. Some of the descriptions above fit me frighteningly well, though:

Nice Guys avoid conflict.

Nice Guys hold contempt for women.

Nice Guys have difficulty making their needs a priority.

Nice Guys will drop their beliefs in order to be liked.
I never drop my beliefs to be liked, but I'll keep my beliefs to myself to avoid conflict. I refuse to discuss politics/religion/etc. During the time when everyone was voting, if a stranger asked me who I voted for, I wouldn't answer until it became obvious that we were "on the same team."

Nice Guys are secretive. They are so driven to seek approval they will hide anything they believe might upset anyone.

Nice Guys are manipulative. They have hard time making their needs a priority and have difficulty asking for what they want clearly, so they feel powerless and result to manipulation.

Nice Guys give to get, and expect some kind of reciprocation.

Nice Guys are passive-aggressive.

Nice Guys are full of rage, a rage which tends to erupt at some of the most unexpected and seemingly inappropriate times.
I dropped a staple remover at work today and started shouting explicitives. I don't know if that makes me full of rage, or just stressed out. I certainly over-reacted though. :P

Nice Guys have difficulty setting boundaries, and instead feel like victims.

Nice Guys are attracted to people and situations that need fixing.
Both of my past girlfriends have shown signs of bipolarism/psyzophrenia and have come from messed up parents

Nice Guys form relationships with partners who are “projects” or “diamonds in the rough.”

And Nice Guys tend to swing back and forth between the nice side and the dark side.
I don't "swing back and forth," but occassionally try to emulate the "bad boys" around me, because my current approach just doesn't attract women. :/

And I do feel an undying need to be accepted by those around me. I hate being hated...by anyone. I blame this on my recent failed relationship. My paranoia and "neediness" got the best of me in the end. We would date for a few weeks, and then break up for unspecified reasons. I would ignore her phone calls, or make them short and simple. I would force her to make plans, instead of myself. I'd begin to cater to myself when we were together, because frankly, I just didn't care what she liked anymore. Then she'd ASK ME to give her another chance. I would fall back into my old ways, and we'd break up a few weeks later. The cycle went on for about 4 months. >:|

[Halffull]

Well, you need to figure out what you believe in man. And again, it's only for you to decide.

[kpreston]

Originally Posted by Halffull

Well, you need to figure out what you believe in man. And again, it's only for you to decide.

I'm trying.

I believe that being kind to the people in my life will keep them there longer. I cherish my friends, and would never want to lose them. It's like the "golden rule" that has been beaten into my head since grade-school.

Unfortunately, reading this thread has made me question my motivation for acting the way I do. I've never thought of myself as manipulative, but then again, I've never thought of myself as a rageful, women hating, passive-aggressive person (until I realized many of my actions sometimes mirror that personality).

However, I am trying to be more assertive as of late and put myself before others, but it often conflicts with the way I've acted my entire life. It's left me rather confused.