Personal Development for Smart People^TM Forums

ns123 · 10-29-2008, 08:19 PM

So here's my problem:

This past month, I have a house guest. Yes, a house guest for a month. He is a very close friend to me and to my husband. He is in town doing studies (medical rotation) for one month so we agreed to let him stay with us for one month.

He leaves in a few days (rotation over) but has the opportunity to come back in 2 weeks for another rotation here (1 more month) for another position. And um, I don't want him to come back because I can barely stand waiting another few days!

I don't want to say no, but I don't want to say yes! Actually, I have already said yes... because, really, he needs our help, it's just another month, but dammit! I want my house back! I want to be able to have sex on the kitchen counter with my man or run around in my underwear dammit. I want to be able to pee without shutting the door or change clothes without hiding in my closet. You get what I'm saying.

And there is an end in sight, it's just one more month. But gaaaah! I can't take it! How do I tell this dude that he has overstayed his welcome already?

Am I being ungenerous? I have a feeling he was sent to us because:
1. we can and are able to help him in this way
2. he needs help
3. I am to learn unconditional generosity (love)

But dammit! I want him out, out, I say!

What advice do yall have for me?

JimOfferman · 10-29-2008, 08:38 PM

Tell him to avoid the kitchen, bathroom and your bedroom?

More seriously: why would you need to behave differently in your own home just because you have a guest? In my book being hospitable means allowing someone to stay within the privacy of your home, while going about your life as usual - if they can't stomach living with your rules, they are free to get a hotel room! If you want to come live with me for a while, you are more than welcome. Just don't expect me to change my ways for you.

crescive · 10-29-2008, 08:47 PM

You should try to see the value he has and what you can take from him staying at your house. You don't feel like you're being compensated for allowing him to stay at your house but maybe you're just not looking hard enough? Try to make him useful in any way you can. Is he a great cook? Tell him that and ask if he would prepare a meal for everyone with all the groceries you have. Does he know a special skill? Ask him to teach you that or perform his skill for you (IE; foreign language, building birdhouses, fixing computers...etc). Maybe you should just try to get to know him better and have more deep, meaningful conversations with him, maybe he can help you in ways you are not aware of yet?

You don't have to feel like a martyr! Learn unconditional generosity and love by seeing the value each person has.

ns123 · 10-29-2008, 09:03 PM

Quote:

You don't have to feel like a martyr! Learn unconditional generosity and love by seeing the value each person has.

you totally hit the nail on the head. I think the reason why I don't want him another month is because I don't see the value he has. Because he has no value in my eyes (to me anyway).

He's my friend, but kind of like, my black sheep friend. He's been through a lot of hard times, but he's also made some poor decisions in his life too. He's now on the road to climbing out of it, and I really wanted to help him. But I do have my doubts (trust?) about him.

The problem is, I don't see any value he can have for me. And that's probably why he bugs me, because he's trying to provide value for me and I'm not letting him, diminishing the value he does provide because I already believed he has no value.

I tell myself that he's here to teach me unconditional love/generosity. I tell myself that he was sent to our family to test our resolve, in choosing our path deliberately, since it is a very non traditional path.

But he may be here to teach me to see the light where I only let myself see darkness. Now I feel ashamed. I will think of this some more and journal it.

Keep 'em coming!

ns123 · 10-29-2008, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

More seriously: why would you need to behave differently in your own home just because you have a guest?

I guess I behave differently because, well, what's appropriate or acceptable with one group of people may not be so appropriate for another group of people. I don't pick my nose or have sex on the kitchen counter with my husband in front of my guests. I don't fart at the table in front of guests either. I don't strip down to my undies to throw my dirty clothes in the washer while I streak up the stairs to get fresh clothes in front of other people.

There are just some things you do in private (or around just your husband) that you would never dream in to do in front of some one else. It has nothing to do with my comfort level with myself, but my comfort level with the other person. Or... maybe it does. Still, I don't know how to justify or convince you that it's necessary for me not to have sex in front of my house guest.

Maybe you truly are a free spirit and don't mind your house guests seeing you naked or have sex in front of them. I'm just not that free yet.

NeedMyCoffee · 10-29-2008, 09:17 PM

Is he annoying you in any way, besides just being there? You didn't mention that he was a bad house guest, just that you don't have personal freedom right now. If you are annoyed only by the fact that you can't run around in your undies and pee with the door open, you may want to embrace the lesson of generosity, and one of patience.

If he is a horrible house guest, then you should consider telling him no, or ask him to change his bad habits/help out around the house.

I know to a certain extent how you feel. My brother came to stay with us for a few weeks. He was great around the house; cleaned up, vacuumed, cooked dinner 3-4 times a week, took us out a few times. Honestly he couldn't have been a better guest. As much as I love my brother and was grateful for all he did, it was nice "getting back to normal" (i.e. not shutting the door to get dressed). If he needed to come back for a while, I would gladly open my door.

There is a line between being generous and being walked on. It sounds like you have the opportunity to be generous. I say go with it.

ns123 · 10-29-2008, 09:28 PM

needmycoffee,

Thanks for pointing out the holes in my post. Yes, I do think he's a bad houseguest, and yes, he is annoying me in a way that just gets under my skin.

He's very short on money (which is why we offered) so we KNEW this when we offered our help for THIS month. I just don't want to do it again, because, well, he has annoyed the crap out of me. So the money problem isn't really a problem. but it's this:

1. he gets home hours before us, but does nothing but either naps or watches tv. Then I get home, there is a mound of dishes (not all his, ours too) that I have to do as well as make dinner. I which case, I also pack my leftovers for lunch, in which case, how can I not pack his leftovers too? So I pack his lunch too. repeat M-F. If I don't cook, when we go out, he tags along and of course, we end up paying for him too.

2. occasionally he will clean up (like dishes) but this is very rare. He's been here a month and he has probably done this maybe less than 5 times. I asked him to cook once, and even bought the groceries for him to do it, but he never did, leaving the ingredients (fresh veggies) to almost rot so I had to use them.

3. he makes little remarks that really tick me off. And no, they are not true, I know they are not true, there is no ounce of truth in them. But they are annoying.

4. he doesn't have the same parenting philosophy as I do but after we had a conversation of the parenting rules in my house and how I deliberately chose them and he will heed them or else... well, he still doesn't agree. So he'll do things to undermine me with my son or make comments like, "wow, your life sucks." or something like that.

Most things considered, I did not expect anything out of him when I agreed to this. And I knew I could do it for one month, but not TWO. I mean, I am resenting the fact that I have to do his dishes too. And I am resenting the fact that he's ALWAYS THERE, when we go out to eat, when we are watching children's shows, everywhere.

So, now you have it. all my pent up frustration. I don't want to say he's a bad guy, just misguided. He does it because he loves our family - a lot, I don't doubt that. But he has this longing, this deep seated need to be right all the time. And I keep telling him, no thanks dude, that's ok for you, but I choose differently, and he doesn't let go. And I don't have time or the inclination to convince him differently, I just want him to respect my decisions, do as I say (since it's my child and I'm the parent) and leave me a lone.

So... what does that sound like to you? Am I hopeless?

danas · 10-29-2008, 10:13 PM

I would tell him that its a bit uncomfortable, and if he could find another arrangement for the next rotation...

Ive done it before, and people have always managed pretty well the moment they had to look for another option, and they were never angry at me either.
In fact a friend is coming to stay with me tomorrow, and in advance Im making it clear that its only for 2-3 days.

And while hes there give him jobs to do. Would you please do the dishes?
How about cooking dinner (the supermarkets just down the road

)?
Its teaching you to express your bounderies.
I used to say yes and suffer. Now Ive learnt to say what I really want without being miss polite and its so much easier.

funchy · 10-29-2008, 11:45 PM

Just casually ask him what he plans to do if he comes back into rotation in your town. If he mentions staying there, politely say "I'm sorry, but we decided to ___ and it's not going to work out." Make up some excuse: repaint the house, go on vacation, offered to dog-sit for a neighbor, whatever.

He is being unfair in expecting this favor repeatedly. Put an end to it now, before he starts making plans.

BTW that was nice of you to help him out. If anything he owes you a favor right now.

Eisho · 10-30-2008, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ns123

So here's my problem:

This past month, I have a house guest. Yes, a house guest for a month. He is a very close friend to me and to my husband. He is in town doing studies (medical rotation) for one month so we agreed to let him stay with us for one month.

He leaves in a few days (rotation over) but has the opportunity to come back in 2 weeks for another rotation here (1 more month) for another position. And um, I don't want him to come back because I can barely stand waiting another few days!

I don't want to say no, but I don't want to say yes! Actually, I have already said yes... because, really, he needs our help, it's just another month, but dammit! I want my house back! I want to be able to have sex on the kitchen counter with my man or run around in my underwear dammit. I want to be able to pee without shutting the door or change clothes without hiding in my closet. You get what I'm saying.

And there is an end in sight, it's just one more month. But gaaaah! I can't take it! How do I tell this dude that he has overstayed his welcome already?

Am I being ungenerous? I have a feeling he was sent to us because:
1. we can and are able to help him in this way
2. he needs help
3. I am to learn unconditional generosity (love)

But dammit! I want him out, out, I say!

What advice do yall have for me?

I think if you explain to him that you are just uncomfortable with him being around for a month then he will understand. Who wouldn't understand? Invite him around for dinner if he stays elsewhere and maintain the friendship but I don't see the problem in just telling him that you are uncomfortable with him around you.

Cheers,

Eisho

crescive · 10-30-2008, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ns123

So, now you have it. all my pent up frustration. I don't want to say he's a bad guy, just misguided. He does it because he loves our family - a lot, I don't doubt that. But he has this longing, this deep seated need to be right all the time. And I keep telling him, no thanks dude, that's ok for you, but I choose differently, and he doesn't let go. And I don't have time or the inclination to convince him differently, I just want him to respect my decisions, do as I say (since it's my child and I'm the parent) and leave me a lone.

So... what does that sound like to you? Am I hopeless?

Oh wow, this paints a better picture. This sounds like it would REALLY suck to be around him actually. There is one thing I can't stand and that is close-minded egoistic people! Well, I think there is no point in holding it back, he's living with you for another month, you should tell him how you feel. I know nobody wants to create conflict and make things awkward but the only person who should be feeling awkward is him! You should absolutely tell him about how his behavior annoys you and that you really want to not feel that way about him. If he blows up, refuses to understand, and puts up a fight then you have every right to tell him to leave because it's not working out.

JimOfferman · 10-30-2008, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ns123

Maybe you truly are a free spirit and don't mind your house guests seeing you naked or have sex in front of them. I'm just not that free yet.

We all have our own boundaries. I don't think I would enjoy sex on the kitchen counter (might be a problem with my kitchen, though), but I can't care less about people seeing me naked... specially in my own home.

The point is that you choose to behave differently because you have a guest staying with you. If that choice brings you discomfort, you can change it - maybe stave of the kitchen counter sex for now, but be less worried about how you look in your undies?

NeedMyCoffee · 10-30-2008, 01:16 PM

I think you should have a talk with him. Tell him that while he is a good friend, the temporary living arrangements just aren't working out, as you have differing opinions on many things. If he comes back to town, invite him over a few times for dinner and an enjoyable evening.

Bite the bullet and have the conversation. Keep your cool and don't attack him, no one likes to hear their flaws. If he is hurt, he may attack you (verbally). Try to not let it get to you, he is just lashing out. After all is said and done, you will feel better.

ns123 · 10-30-2008, 03:57 PM

Yes, I think it just boils down to, I feel bad because I know he doesn't have much money. He's basically surviving on credit card debt and student loans right now. So I know he was depending on us to help him out to do the rotation here for the first month (this month).

And I haven't really been honest with him that he annoys me so much. I thought, well, he's leaving at the end of the month, I can put up with it for a while and he'll leave and all will be ok. Then, he asks to say another month since he's enjoyed it so much here. Well, of course he enjoys it here! He gets a home cooked meal every night, some one to pack his lunch, he doesn't have to pay for anything, he gets free use of our 2nd car, and he doesn't have to do anything around the house, just goes to work and plays video games all night, only pausing to eat when dinner is ready.

The thing is, I don't mind being generous for a month. But I mind being generous for two. Does that make sense? The camel only hold so much straw on her back before the last straw breaks it and she starts to bite. I think I'm at a point where I'm carrying as much straw as I can, and any more I'll start to bite. Which will not be good for anyone, especially me.

I think what I'm wrestling with is that I want to help him, because I can, but I am not willing to help him. I'm not willing to commit to a whole 'nother month of this because I just simply don't want to. I'm willing to help him in other ways, like financially, because I am capable of it, but I'm not willing to open up my home any more. He's not a bad guy, his presence just changes things - especially the family dynamics at play. It's not that he's bad, it's his mere presence.

There is a loss of intimacy when there is some one else in your house. Well, there is for me. And Jim, don't even deny this, because no way am I going to have sex in the living room with a guest in the house. Sorry, can't do it.

I think the issue is that he's an emotional drain. He's just not at a point where he is of use to me, not that I ever expected him to be. Yes, I can talk to him about doing dishes and picking up more... but I resent having to have this talk with him. I expect that (since he's 38 yrs old) that he knows how to be a good house guest. And I expect it because he's actually complained about others doing exactly as he has done for the past month in my house. He just, um, doesn't apply his expectations of others to his expectations of himself. And I'm starting to resent that and not like it.

So the thing is, I can take it for one month. But I can't take it for two. And I've dug myself a big hole by saying he can stay. So now I gotta back pedal by re-negging on my word - which I already kicked my own butt for that. So I don't need anyone's help in that arena.

My problem is just as someone said before. I don't see his light because I don't allow myself to. My other problem is, I end up judging him internally, even if I don't say it. He has no money, yet he can spend hundreds of dollars buying music and games. He likes the finer things in life, can't afford it, but gets it anyway. And here I am helping him, and thinking, well, of course he doesn't have money, he spends it all on junk he doesn't need. See? I don't like being this way.

So it feels like it's all take take take. And for this month, him taking and me giving has been ok so far... just another month of take take take is gonna have me boil over.

What does everyone else think? I feel a horrible person to turn my friend out. I don't know why I feel obligated to help him, it's just that, maybe he was sent to us because out of everyone, we are the only ones who can and may be willing to. and here I am, not willing to. Does that make sense?

JimOfferman · 10-30-2008, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ns123

There is a loss of intimacy when there is some one else in your house. Well, there is for me. And Jim, don't even deny this, because no way am I going to have sex in the living room with a guest in the house. Sorry, can't do it.

Then kick him out. Obviously sex in rooms other than the bed room is more important to you than being generous towards this friend. That's not a judgment by the way, you have every right to feel it is - it is your home!

Just say something like:

"Nope, sorry, you can't stay here for another month because I need my living room to have sex in."

Make sure to have a slightly crazed look in your eyes, so he understands how you suffer from the deprevation. He'll be packed and gone before you know it!

Well, perhaps you want to exercise a little more tact. But there's no reason why you can't be honest about not wanting him in the house any longer.

ns123 · 10-30-2008, 04:26 PM

Jim, you crack me up! I can just picture a depraved look right now, I gotta have sex dammit! You need to scat, now!

Yeah, like I really need him to think of me like that. To make matters a bit more complicated, he's always kind of had a crush on me for a long time. He's my husband's best friend, and he's always acted like I should have been his wife instead of my husband's. Which is so not true and will never happen. Even my mom has remarked that it seems as if he wants to steal his best friend's wife (ie me) and she only met him during the wedding.

But yeah, funny thought - but no, I don't think I'll do that.

I think I'll just cop out and have my husband tell him it's not working out. And then arrange to help him financially instead.

I kind of feel like it's a cop out, like, sorry, I don't want you here, so here's a great sum of money for you to go away. I don't know why I think that, that thought is just there.

JimOfferman · 10-30-2008, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ns123

Jim, you crack me up!

Good!

Quote:

I think I'll just cop out and have my husband tell him it's not working out.

Sounds like the best thing for everybody.

Quote:

And then arrange to help him financially instead.

That's very generous of you! You don't have any obligation to do this, you know.

NeedMyCoffee · 10-30-2008, 06:08 PM

It's up to you if you want to help him out financially. If you feel generous, go for it. My view point is a little different, considering the points you made about his spending habits. He spends hundreds of dollars on games and music, yet he is living off credit and loans? He is spending money on "the finer things in life" but doesn't have a job? If he was wise with his money and still struggling, I would feel differently.

My husband is attending university now, and we don't go about spending money willy-nilly. I love the finer things in life too, but have curbed my spending habits to afford his education. Going from a two income family to one income is an eye opener.

Again, the choice is yours to be generous in every way that makes you happy. Just make sure you are going to be happy with your decision.

metamorph · 10-30-2008, 06:23 PM

Let your gut decide. If he is a close friend and it is really only for 2 more weeks (and there won't be a third or fourth rotation

thereafter) then you could just focus on the emotional bank account (your friendship) you improve with him. If, however, you realise this friendship is really nothing more than a memory of the past (when you may have been a different person), and now there is nothing connecting you anymore than the past, then you could also use this as an opportunity to end this "friendship".

Just a story so you can feel better: Years ago when I was flatsharing, my flatmate once had her cousin staying over open end. He came looking for a job, but he never made an effort to actually apply for jobs. He would "own" the living room, decide the TV program, needed constant baby-sitting since he could never do anything on his own, ask my flatmate to write his CV for him, to drive him to the local grocery shop for food shopping and to pay for him for drinks when we went out. He was always at home, and he constantly needed someone to talk to...

Bottom line was I kicked him out after 2 weeks... I think my flatmate both hated and loved me for it...

I always thought there is a certain code of conduct when you stay somewhere else. For me this is giving the host maximum freedom and privacy (I often stayed in Starbuck's and read books and came home late often already having had dinner at the local bistro), contribute with cleaning and shopping for food, and working around the hosts (if they have to be in the bathroom at 8am because of work, then I go at 7am.) etc.

ns123 · 10-30-2008, 06:46 PM

My gut says that he should not stay for a 2nd month rotation. But it also says that I should help in whatever way I can.

My husband and I are quite financially comfortable and are in a position to be able to help others if we so choose. I'm ok with parting with the money, I'm just not okay with parting with my privacy for another month. The first month is ok (which is coming to an end) but another 2nd month would put me over the edge.

NeedMyCoffee, you bring up a very interesting point. Am I enabling him by financially helping him, since I can clearly see how he wastes his money? I mean, he can't afford one month apartment, but he can afford to buy music and games? That is a good point.

I think I'm ok with just financially helping him within a certain limit (maybe $2000). After that, he'll have to seek elsewhere. And it's not like I'm drowning in poverty. But yeah, will I resent him after I've helped him if he squanders his money? Most likely yes - which is why I titled this post generosity.

I suppose the question is, is it generosity or is it stupidity to help some one even financially in this situation?

JimOfferman · 10-30-2008, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ns123

I suppose the question is, is it generosity or is it stupidity to help some one even financially in this situation?

If you send him on his way with a big chunk of your change in his pocket, you effectively rob him of the chance to learn some financial responsibility.

I wouldn't call that particularly generous.

ns123 · 10-30-2008, 09:50 PM

Jim,

when I read your words, I almost jumped out of my chair. You put into words what has been nagging at my mind.

Me giving him money was just a pay off so that I could walk away guilt free. And it has been eating me up. Yes, it doesn't particularly sound generous, it does sound selfish, doesn't it? It's masked in, yes, I'm all generous with my money, but it's really I'm selfish and I want to just pay you off so I can walk away from not emotionally supporting you.

It's guilt money. Yeesh.

I have already concluded that a 2nd month is a no deal. Just will not work. And I cannot guilt myself in feeling responsible for providing him support when I'm sapped dry in that area. Better to refresh and renew and support him in other ways. As a friend, not as a keeper. I am not his keeper, he is. I cannot "save" him.

You are right. I can't pay my way out of this. I just have to face it, and if he is upset at me about it, so be it. I have to accept what I'm willing to commit to, and that's perfectly ok.

I guess I'm just afraid of looking like the bad guy who tossed her friend out on the street when her friend asked her for help. I know I'm not, but it looks that way. Maybe in part, I kind of believe it. (I can hear my mother's voice right now)

ns123 · 10-30-2008, 09:55 PM

crap crap crap. a thought just popped into my head.

I could accept him exactly as he is, and exactly as he isn't. And I also could accept myself exactly as I am, and exactly as I am not.

I know what I am capable of giving, and I know I am not capable of giving any more. Guilt money will not help. I could accept myself for who I am and what I'm capable of, right now.

Thanks for helping me work through that guys! It's difficult for me to say no to people in need, but I must say no if it is detrimental to my number 1 priority, myself.

Dan.Linehan · 10-30-2008, 09:57 PM

I was on the fence until I read this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ns123

He gets a home cooked meal every night, some one to pack his lunch, he doesn't have to pay for anything, he gets free use of our 2nd car, and he doesn't have to do anything around the house, just goes to work and plays video games all night, only pausing to eat when dinner is ready.

He would be on his own if it were me. I don't think you are doing him any favors by rewarding this behavior. Just enforcing bad habits.

metamorph · 10-31-2008, 11:35 AM

Why don't you just say to him that at this moment in time in your relationship to your partner you need a lot of privacy. And then do not comment on the reasons. It is true, and you can let him draw whatever conclusions he want (e.g you have relationship problems or you want to have sex on the kichen-floor...). If then you still want to help him, why don't you help him financially to afford a pension or any other accomodation. And if he has some degree of decency he will pay you back one day or return a differnt favour one day.

ns123 · 10-31-2008, 07:13 PM

Thank you everyone who helped me work through this. I do have a tendency to spoil people when I "take them in." I am starting to see that I am an enabler, I really create this situation for myself, over and over again.

I have this tendency to help people to the point that they just go, oh wow, NS can do it so much better, I will just kick it back here and let her do everything. And then, I get to a point where I'm tapped dry and I have to stop being a doormat.

There have been others whom I've helped that have not taken advantage of me. So all is not lost.

I think learning to set boundaries for myself (as well as others) is something I am learning with this situation. It's given me a better reference so that in the future, I can set those boundaries up before hand, rather than waiting until I'm all "gived" out.

Thanks everyone for sticking through with me and helping me work through this. I really love this forum, there are so many of yall out there that have such great insight.

ZHereford · 10-31-2008, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ns123

I think learning to set boundaries for myself (as well as others) is something I am learning with this situation. It's given me a better reference so that in the future, I can set those boundaries up before hand, rather than waiting until I'm all "gived" out.

ns123,

This is definitely the case! When you don't have defined personal boundaries people will take advantage. Your house guest could have done much more to help out and earn 'his keep'. If he were more considerate there are so many ways in which he could have shown some appreciation and acknowledged your generosity. I daresay it would have made you feel differently about a second month of his staying with you. As it is, you went far and beyond the call of duty.

ssandra · 11-02-2008, 04:53 PM

Hi,

Another option between kicking him out (with or without financial help) and suffering another month is to tell him the truth and set boundaries if he wants to stay another month.

Just put some clear rules:

1. first one home does the dishes
2. you cook at least 1x per week (or 2x depending how good he is at cooking)
3. you help around the house and with cleaning at least 2x per week
4. at least 1x per week you will be home later then 22.00 pm (for your feeling of privacy).
5. at the first sign of undermining me in front of my kid, you are out!

About the money.. This is a subject I feel very strongly about.

If people decide to help me and give me money for something or if I ask them for another thing they can do that or not. It is their decision.

BUT!!! With asking for help I am not giving them the right to judge every other part of my life as well!
There can be a million of reasons why he is spending on CD's or games etc. It is not your place to judge. You gave him a helping hand, that is it. You have no right to control what he does with it, unless you specify in advance. And even then you only have the right to control what he does with "your" money.

good luck.

ps what is your husband saying about all of this?

ns123 · 11-02-2008, 10:52 PM

ssandra,

thanks for your input. my husband feels the same way I do, but we are both struggling with to help or not to help. We feel like we should help, because we can, but we just don't want to.

As for the "house rules" I resent the fact that I have to make them. And even if I did, he won't hold up his end of the bargain - evidenced by me buying groceries and he not cooking the ONE meal he said he would and letting the veggies go bad.

I like to cook dinner for myself, so how can I not just cook a little more for him? If I deliberately cook for just me, my husband, and child, well, that would look pretty akward. But I resent having to do everything.

You are right about the money, which that's how I feel too. I do judge him about his spending habits, but I haven't given any money and have not voiced my concerns. So as far as he knows, I haven't judged him, even tho I have. And um, I can't go back in time and take the judgment out of my memory. We haven't given him any money as of yet, just free food, free rent, free use our our car, free everything. It's costing us a lot more this month having him here but that's ok so far.

I guess the resentment is that we are doing so much and it's all give give give. So much for unconditional, right?

Anyway, we've already decided a 2nd month is a no go, we just have to wrestle with the guilt. My husband and I are both um... martyrs, even though I hate that word. We tend to give until we are all gived out, and that's something we have to work through as people.

I'll post tommorrow on how our no-you-can't-stay conversation went with our houseguest. Gotta go.

ns123 · 11-03-2008, 03:28 PM

well, let me just say thanks to everyone here who helped me work through this issue.

We had a talk with our houseguest and told him (maybe we chickened out) that another month will not work. We did not go into details why, we just said that having a house guest results in a loss of intimacy and changes the social dynamics of our household and that it would not be good for our family to do a 2nd month. Plus with the holidays and us being in and out, it will not work out well. He outwardly took it pretty well and said he understood. So he'll stay in a separate apartment and just visit some weekends.

I did offer to help financially a bit with his rotation application fees - which is no where near how much I was going to help in the beginning. Jim's comment hit me to the core, and both my husband and I decided it was not particularly generous to enable some one. But we did help some financially, mainly because we wanted to.

So all has worked out fine, he will not be back in our house for a 2nd month and already the house energy has started to settle. So I'm happy about it.

Thank you everyone, yall are fantastic.

10-29-2008, 08:19 PM	#1 (permalink)
ns123 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 658	generosity with an overstayed houseguest So here's my problem: This past month, I have a house guest. Yes, a house guest for a month. He is a very close friend to me and to my husband. He is in town doing studies (medical rotation) for one month so we agreed to let him stay with us for one month. He leaves in a few days (rotation over) but has the opportunity to come back in 2 weeks for another rotation here (1 more month) for another position. And um, I don't want him to come back because I can barely stand waiting another few days! I don't want to say no, but I don't want to say yes! Actually, I have already said yes... because, really, he needs our help, it's just another month, but dammit! I want my house back! I want to be able to have sex on the kitchen counter with my man or run around in my underwear dammit. I want to be able to pee without shutting the door or change clothes without hiding in my closet. You get what I'm saying. And there is an end in sight, it's just one more month. But gaaaah! I can't take it! How do I tell this dude that he has overstayed his welcome already? Am I being ungenerous? I have a feeling he was sent to us because: 1. we can and are able to help him in this way 2. he needs help 3. I am to learn unconditional generosity (love) But dammit! I want him out, out, I say! What advice do yall have for me?

10-29-2008, 10:13 PM	#8 (permalink)
danas Family Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,676	I would tell him that its a bit uncomfortable, and if he could find another arrangement for the next rotation... Ive done it before, and people have always managed pretty well the moment they had to look for another option, and they were never angry at me either. In fact a friend is coming to stay with me tomorrow, and in advance Im making it clear that its only for 2-3 days. And while hes there give him jobs to do. Would you please do the dishes? How about cooking dinner (the supermarkets just down the road)? Its teaching you to express your bounderies. I used to say yes and suffer. Now Ive learnt to say what I really want without being miss polite and its so much easier.

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10-29-2008, 08:38 PM	#2 (permalink)
JimOfferman Family Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,823	Tell him to avoid the kitchen, bathroom and your bedroom? More seriously: why would you need to behave differently in your own home just because you have a guest? In my book being hospitable means allowing someone to stay within the privacy of your home, while going about your life as usual - if they can't stomach living with your rules, they are free to get a hotel room! If you want to come live with me for a while, you are more than welcome. Just don't expect me to change my ways for you.

10-29-2008, 08:47 PM	#3 (permalink)
crescive Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 101	You should try to see the value he has and what you can take from him staying at your house. You don't feel like you're being compensated for allowing him to stay at your house but maybe you're just not looking hard enough? Try to make him useful in any way you can. Is he a great cook? Tell him that and ask if he would prepare a meal for everyone with all the groceries you have. Does he know a special skill? Ask him to teach you that or perform his skill for you (IE; foreign language, building birdhouses, fixing computers...etc). Maybe you should just try to get to know him better and have more deep, meaningful conversations with him, maybe he can help you in ways you are not aware of yet? You don't have to feel like a martyr! Learn unconditional generosity and love by seeing the value each person has.

10-29-2008, 09:17 PM	#6 (permalink)
NeedMyCoffee Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 88	Is he annoying you in any way, besides just being there? You didn't mention that he was a bad house guest, just that you don't have personal freedom right now. If you are annoyed only by the fact that you can't run around in your undies and pee with the door open, you may want to embrace the lesson of generosity, and one of patience. If he is a horrible house guest, then you should consider telling him no, or ask him to change his bad habits/help out around the house. I know to a certain extent how you feel. My brother came to stay with us for a few weeks. He was great around the house; cleaned up, vacuumed, cooked dinner 3-4 times a week, took us out a few times. Honestly he couldn't have been a better guest. As much as I love my brother and was grateful for all he did, it was nice "getting back to normal" (i.e. not shutting the door to get dressed). If he needed to come back for a while, I would gladly open my door. There is a line between being generous and being walked on. It sounds like you have the opportunity to be generous. I say go with it.

10-29-2008, 09:28 PM	#7 (permalink)
ns123 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 658	needmycoffee, Thanks for pointing out the holes in my post. Yes, I do think he's a bad houseguest, and yes, he is annoying me in a way that just gets under my skin. He's very short on money (which is why we offered) so we KNEW this when we offered our help for THIS month. I just don't want to do it again, because, well, he has annoyed the crap out of me. So the money problem isn't really a problem. but it's this: 1. he gets home hours before us, but does nothing but either naps or watches tv. Then I get home, there is a mound of dishes (not all his, ours too) that I have to do as well as make dinner. I which case, I also pack my leftovers for lunch, in which case, how can I not pack his leftovers too? So I pack his lunch too. repeat M-F. If I don't cook, when we go out, he tags along and of course, we end up paying for him too. 2. occasionally he will clean up (like dishes) but this is very rare. He's been here a month and he has probably done this maybe less than 5 times. I asked him to cook once, and even bought the groceries for him to do it, but he never did, leaving the ingredients (fresh veggies) to almost rot so I had to use them. 3. he makes little remarks that really tick me off. And no, they are not true, I know they are not true, there is no ounce of truth in them. But they are annoying. 4. he doesn't have the same parenting philosophy as I do but after we had a conversation of the parenting rules in my house and how I deliberately chose them and he will heed them or else... well, he still doesn't agree. So he'll do things to undermine me with my son or make comments like, "wow, your life sucks." or something like that. Most things considered, I did not expect anything out of him when I agreed to this. And I knew I could do it for one month, but not TWO. I mean, I am resenting the fact that I have to do his dishes too. And I am resenting the fact that he's ALWAYS THERE, when we go out to eat, when we are watching children's shows, everywhere. So, now you have it. all my pent up frustration. I don't want to say he's a bad guy, just misguided. He does it because he loves our family - a lot, I don't doubt that. But he has this longing, this deep seated need to be right all the time. And I keep telling him, no thanks dude, that's ok for you, but I choose differently, and he doesn't let go. And I don't have time or the inclination to convince him differently, I just want him to respect my decisions, do as I say (since it's my child and I'm the parent) and leave me a lone. So... what does that sound like to you? Am I hopeless?

10-29-2008, 11:45 PM	#9 (permalink)
funchy Family Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: east coast, USA Posts: 1,628	Just casually ask him what he plans to do if he comes back into rotation in your town. If he mentions staying there, politely say "I'm sorry, but we decided to ___ and it's not going to work out." Make up some excuse: repaint the house, go on vacation, offered to dog-sit for a neighbor, whatever. He is being unfair in expecting this favor repeatedly. Put an end to it now, before he starts making plans. BTW that was nice of you to help him out. If anything he owes you a favor right now.

10-30-2008, 01:16 PM	#13 (permalink)
NeedMyCoffee Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 88	I think you should have a talk with him. Tell him that while he is a good friend, the temporary living arrangements just aren't working out, as you have differing opinions on many things. If he comes back to town, invite him over a few times for dinner and an enjoyable evening. Bite the bullet and have the conversation. Keep your cool and don't attack him, no one likes to hear their flaws. If he is hurt, he may attack you (verbally). Try to not let it get to you, he is just lashing out. After all is said and done, you will feel better.

10-30-2008, 03:57 PM	#14 (permalink)
ns123 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 658	Yes, I think it just boils down to, I feel bad because I know he doesn't have much money. He's basically surviving on credit card debt and student loans right now. So I know he was depending on us to help him out to do the rotation here for the first month (this month). And I haven't really been honest with him that he annoys me so much. I thought, well, he's leaving at the end of the month, I can put up with it for a while and he'll leave and all will be ok. Then, he asks to say another month since he's enjoyed it so much here. Well, of course he enjoys it here! He gets a home cooked meal every night, some one to pack his lunch, he doesn't have to pay for anything, he gets free use of our 2nd car, and he doesn't have to do anything around the house, just goes to work and plays video games all night, only pausing to eat when dinner is ready. The thing is, I don't mind being generous for a month. But I mind being generous for two. Does that make sense? The camel only hold so much straw on her back before the last straw breaks it and she starts to bite. I think I'm at a point where I'm carrying as much straw as I can, and any more I'll start to bite. Which will not be good for anyone, especially me. I think what I'm wrestling with is that I want to help him, because I can, but I am not willing to help him. I'm not willing to commit to a whole 'nother month of this because I just simply don't want to. I'm willing to help him in other ways, like financially, because I am capable of it, but I'm not willing to open up my home any more. He's not a bad guy, his presence just changes things - especially the family dynamics at play. It's not that he's bad, it's his mere presence. There is a loss of intimacy when there is some one else in your house. Well, there is for me. And Jim, don't even deny this, because no way am I going to have sex in the living room with a guest in the house. Sorry, can't do it. I think the issue is that he's an emotional drain. He's just not at a point where he is of use to me, not that I ever expected him to be. Yes, I can talk to him about doing dishes and picking up more... but I resent having to have this talk with him. I expect that (since he's 38 yrs old) that he knows how to be a good house guest. And I expect it because he's actually complained about others doing exactly as he has done for the past month in my house. He just, um, doesn't apply his expectations of others to his expectations of himself. And I'm starting to resent that and not like it. So the thing is, I can take it for one month. But I can't take it for two. And I've dug myself a big hole by saying he can stay. So now I gotta back pedal by re-negging on my word - which I already kicked my own butt for that. So I don't need anyone's help in that arena. My problem is just as someone said before. I don't see his light because I don't allow myself to. My other problem is, I end up judging him internally, even if I don't say it. He has no money, yet he can spend hundreds of dollars buying music and games. He likes the finer things in life, can't afford it, but gets it anyway. And here I am helping him, and thinking, well, of course he doesn't have money, he spends it all on junk he doesn't need. See? I don't like being this way. So it feels like it's all take take take. And for this month, him taking and me giving has been ok so far... just another month of take take take is gonna have me boil over. What does everyone else think? I feel a horrible person to turn my friend out. I don't know why I feel obligated to help him, it's just that, maybe he was sent to us because out of everyone, we are the only ones who can and may be willing to. and here I am, not willing to. Does that make sense?

10-30-2008, 04:26 PM	#16 (permalink)
ns123 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 658	Jim, you crack me up! I can just picture a depraved look right now, I gotta have sex dammit! You need to scat, now! Yeah, like I really need him to think of me like that. To make matters a bit more complicated, he's always kind of had a crush on me for a long time. He's my husband's best friend, and he's always acted like I should have been his wife instead of my husband's. Which is so not true and will never happen. Even my mom has remarked that it seems as if he wants to steal his best friend's wife (ie me) and she only met him during the wedding. But yeah, funny thought - but no, I don't think I'll do that. I think I'll just cop out and have my husband tell him it's not working out. And then arrange to help him financially instead. I kind of feel like it's a cop out, like, sorry, I don't want you here, so here's a great sum of money for you to go away. I don't know why I think that, that thought is just there.

10-30-2008, 06:08 PM	#18 (permalink)
NeedMyCoffee Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 88	It's up to you if you want to help him out financially. If you feel generous, go for it. My view point is a little different, considering the points you made about his spending habits. He spends hundreds of dollars on games and music, yet he is living off credit and loans? He is spending money on "the finer things in life" but doesn't have a job? If he was wise with his money and still struggling, I would feel differently. My husband is attending university now, and we don't go about spending money willy-nilly. I love the finer things in life too, but have curbed my spending habits to afford his education. Going from a two income family to one income is an eye opener. Again, the choice is yours to be generous in every way that makes you happy. Just make sure you are going to be happy with your decision.

10-30-2008, 06:23 PM	#19 (permalink)
metamorph Family Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: UK Posts: 1,098	Let your gut decide. If he is a close friend and it is really only for 2 more weeks (and there won't be a third or fourth rotation thereafter) then you could just focus on the emotional bank account (your friendship) you improve with him. If, however, you realise this friendship is really nothing more than a memory of the past (when you may have been a different person), and now there is nothing connecting you anymore than the past, then you could also use this as an opportunity to end this "friendship". Just a story so you can feel better: Years ago when I was flatsharing, my flatmate once had her cousin staying over open end. He came looking for a job, but he never made an effort to actually apply for jobs. He would "own" the living room, decide the TV program, needed constant baby-sitting since he could never do anything on his own, ask my flatmate to write his CV for him, to drive him to the local grocery shop for food shopping and to pay for him for drinks when we went out. He was always at home, and he constantly needed someone to talk to... Bottom line was I kicked him out after 2 weeks... I think my flatmate both hated and loved me for it... I always thought there is a certain code of conduct when you stay somewhere else. For me this is giving the host maximum freedom and privacy (I often stayed in Starbuck's and read books and came home late often already having had dinner at the local bistro), contribute with cleaning and shopping for food, and working around the hosts (if they have to be in the bathroom at 8am because of work, then I go at 7am.) etc.

10-30-2008, 06:46 PM	#20 (permalink)
ns123 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 658	My gut says that he should not stay for a 2nd month rotation. But it also says that I should help in whatever way I can. My husband and I are quite financially comfortable and are in a position to be able to help others if we so choose. I'm ok with parting with the money, I'm just not okay with parting with my privacy for another month. The first month is ok (which is coming to an end) but another 2nd month would put me over the edge. NeedMyCoffee, you bring up a very interesting point. Am I enabling him by financially helping him, since I can clearly see how he wastes his money? I mean, he can't afford one month apartment, but he can afford to buy music and games? That is a good point. I think I'm ok with just financially helping him within a certain limit (maybe $2000). After that, he'll have to seek elsewhere. And it's not like I'm drowning in poverty. But yeah, will I resent him after I've helped him if he squanders his money? Most likely yes - which is why I titled this post generosity. I suppose the question is, is it generosity or is it stupidity to help some one even financially in this situation?

10-30-2008, 09:50 PM	#22 (permalink)
ns123 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 658	Jim, when I read your words, I almost jumped out of my chair. You put into words what has been nagging at my mind. Me giving him money was just a pay off so that I could walk away guilt free. And it has been eating me up. Yes, it doesn't particularly sound generous, it does sound selfish, doesn't it? It's masked in, yes, I'm all generous with my money, but it's really I'm selfish and I want to just pay you off so I can walk away from not emotionally supporting you. It's guilt money. Yeesh. I have already concluded that a 2nd month is a no deal. Just will not work. And I cannot guilt myself in feeling responsible for providing him support when I'm sapped dry in that area. Better to refresh and renew and support him in other ways. As a friend, not as a keeper. I am not his keeper, he is. I cannot "save" him. You are right. I can't pay my way out of this. I just have to face it, and if he is upset at me about it, so be it. I have to accept what I'm willing to commit to, and that's perfectly ok. I guess I'm just afraid of looking like the bad guy who tossed her friend out on the street when her friend asked her for help. I know I'm not, but it looks that way. Maybe in part, I kind of believe it. (I can hear my mother's voice right now)

10-30-2008, 09:55 PM	#23 (permalink)
ns123 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 658	crap crap crap. a thought just popped into my head. I could accept him exactly as he is, and exactly as he isn't. And I also could accept myself exactly as I am, and exactly as I am not. I know what I am capable of giving, and I know I am not capable of giving any more. Guilt money will not help. I could accept myself for who I am and what I'm capable of, right now. Thanks for helping me work through that guys! It's difficult for me to say no to people in need, but I must say no if it is detrimental to my number 1 priority, myself.

10-31-2008, 11:35 AM	#25 (permalink)
metamorph Family Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: UK Posts: 1,098	Why don't you just say to him that at this moment in time in your relationship to your partner you need a lot of privacy. And then do not comment on the reasons. It is true, and you can let him draw whatever conclusions he want (e.g you have relationship problems or you want to have sex on the kichen-floor...). If then you still want to help him, why don't you help him financially to afford a pension or any other accomodation. And if he has some degree of decency he will pay you back one day or return a differnt favour one day.

10-31-2008, 07:13 PM	#26 (permalink)
ns123 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 658	Thank you everyone who helped me work through this. I do have a tendency to spoil people when I "take them in." I am starting to see that I am an enabler, I really create this situation for myself, over and over again. I have this tendency to help people to the point that they just go, oh wow, NS can do it so much better, I will just kick it back here and let her do everything. And then, I get to a point where I'm tapped dry and I have to stop being a doormat. There have been others whom I've helped that have not taken advantage of me. So all is not lost. I think learning to set boundaries for myself (as well as others) is something I am learning with this situation. It's given me a better reference so that in the future, I can set those boundaries up before hand, rather than waiting until I'm all "gived" out. Thanks everyone for sticking through with me and helping me work through this. I really love this forum, there are so many of yall out there that have such great insight.

11-02-2008, 04:53 PM	#28 (permalink)
ssandra Banned Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Mexico City Posts: 11,168	Hi, Another option between kicking him out (with or without financial help) and suffering another month is to tell him the truth and set boundaries if he wants to stay another month. Just put some clear rules: 1. first one home does the dishes 2. you cook at least 1x per week (or 2x depending how good he is at cooking) 3. you help around the house and with cleaning at least 2x per week 4. at least 1x per week you will be home later then 22.00 pm (for your feeling of privacy). 5. at the first sign of undermining me in front of my kid, you are out! About the money.. This is a subject I feel very strongly about. If people decide to help me and give me money for something or if I ask them for another thing they can do that or not. It is their decision. BUT!!! With asking for help I am not giving them the right to judge every other part of my life as well! There can be a million of reasons why he is spending on CD's or games etc. It is not your place to judge. You gave him a helping hand, that is it. You have no right to control what he does with it, unless you specify in advance. And even then you only have the right to control what he does with "your" money. good luck. ps what is your husband saying about all of this?

11-02-2008, 10:52 PM	#29 (permalink)
ns123 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 658	ssandra, thanks for your input. my husband feels the same way I do, but we are both struggling with to help or not to help. We feel like we should help, because we can, but we just don't want to. As for the "house rules" I resent the fact that I have to make them. And even if I did, he won't hold up his end of the bargain - evidenced by me buying groceries and he not cooking the ONE meal he said he would and letting the veggies go bad. I like to cook dinner for myself, so how can I not just cook a little more for him? If I deliberately cook for just me, my husband, and child, well, that would look pretty akward. But I resent having to do everything. You are right about the money, which that's how I feel too. I do judge him about his spending habits, but I haven't given any money and have not voiced my concerns. So as far as he knows, I haven't judged him, even tho I have. And um, I can't go back in time and take the judgment out of my memory. We haven't given him any money as of yet, just free food, free rent, free use our our car, free everything. It's costing us a lot more this month having him here but that's ok so far. I guess the resentment is that we are doing so much and it's all give give give. So much for unconditional, right? Anyway, we've already decided a 2nd month is a no go, we just have to wrestle with the guilt. My husband and I are both um... martyrs, even though I hate that word. We tend to give until we are all gived out, and that's something we have to work through as people. I'll post tommorrow on how our no-you-can't-stay conversation went with our houseguest. Gotta go.

11-03-2008, 03:28 PM	#30 (permalink)
ns123 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 658	well, let me just say thanks to everyone here who helped me work through this issue. We had a talk with our houseguest and told him (maybe we chickened out) that another month will not work. We did not go into details why, we just said that having a house guest results in a loss of intimacy and changes the social dynamics of our household and that it would not be good for our family to do a 2nd month. Plus with the holidays and us being in and out, it will not work out well. He outwardly took it pretty well and said he understood. So he'll stay in a separate apartment and just visit some weekends. I did offer to help financially a bit with his rotation application fees - which is no where near how much I was going to help in the beginning. Jim's comment hit me to the core, and both my husband and I decided it was not particularly generous to enable some one. But we did help some financially, mainly because we wanted to. So all has worked out fine, he will not be back in our house for a 2nd month and already the house energy has started to settle. So I'm happy about it. Thank you everyone, yall are fantastic.

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