An old gay man hit on me at starbucks today...

[Liveformx64]

This thread is a riot .....

Look at the conversation that horny old feller' led us all to have.

This is the best site on the net.

[Boreas]

I want everyone to know I read over all your posts carefully and appreciate all of them, and I thank you! And that is because I am a nice guy...yeah...

Originally Posted by sbdiane

As a woman, I just can't but think to myself, welcome to our world.

Well, that is exactly what I thought and felt after the experience. Oh man, woman go through this **** all the time, no wonder they never smile back at me. I guess that makes me naive, and hopeless romantic that I am, I always had this vision that I would meet the girl of my dreams in a cafe or bar, by accident or coincidence... after the old gay man it occurred to me that there was no chance of this ever happening, and worse, that it would actually almost disgust me if it ever did happen.

It has occurred to me over the past day that the best friendships of my life have all been related to school, work, or family...situations where everyone had a reason to be socializing. It cut out any sexual, or relationship, tensions that seem to dominate all other interaction. If I meet a girl by chance there is always this underlying sexual or relationship tension that I just wish wasn't there. Girls usually break this tension by mentioning "their boyfriend" which is fine, but it does put the whole "tension" out there, which just makes things more awkward. Also, it wasn't until this year that I realized girls make up their boyfriends half the time (naive again), but whatever. I actually thought about making up a girlfriend when I meet girls from now on, but duplicity just isn't my style, and I am not capable of pulling it off.

So how to move forward then? I ascribe to Pavlina's transcendental notions that we are connected to everyone else, and ergo, approaching strangers and having meaningful relationships with them should be no issue. I have been operating on the premise for a while now, I smile and joke with strangers in coffee shops, in lines, and waiting rooms and I honestly enjoy it. I have come to "know" people at this Starbucks I am hanging out in. It might only be one or two sentences a week, but that is fine.

I am fine with moving forward meeting people, and putting this whole sexual tension thing aside: I just want to meet you and learn about your interests, opinions, and ideas, OK?

But then what gets me is that women have in fact been made into a collective victim. I refer again to the relevant quote:

Originally Posted by sbdiane

As a woman, I just can't but think to myself, welcome to our world.

What is this world? One of constant defense and cynicism? For example, sometimes in a cafe a girl will give me a look like "don't even think about it" and then sit in a chair so that I get their back. It is hard not to take offense at this and think "hey I am a nice guy, not one of those jerks, let me prove it to you" or something (maybe that is Angela's point) In any case, I guess I can empathize with that attitude more now that gay guy hit on me...it is a pretty horrid experience, once is forgivable, but if it became the norm, I would soon start giving old men hard looks and turning my back too...or would I? I should like to believe that I could live it down, let it roll off my back, imagine it some other way (Luaxa's point) so that I keep on being an open individual.

What gets me about all this is that girls make it so they have to be defensive, and yet at the same time there is a percentage of them that are lonely and single, yet are obliged to lie about being in a relationship...is this not crazy?

Or is it just society? There are fairly well socialized rules to meeting people. If your mother introduces you to someone, they are cool, if that same person rushes to you in a cafe with hand stretched out to meet you, they are freaks. Nice eh? Yet that is how it goes, and I just don't have the suave charm to overcome all these social obstacles, and as much as I enjoy the thrill of exploring the new universe that is another person, I don't know how much I will work up to it.

Another aspect to this is that I have had plenty of people in my life that annoy the hell out of me, or simply bore me, and I have had to avoid them. Before I used to make up excuses, but now I am more direct, along the lines of "I would rather work" or "I think I will just go alone"...I think the honesty is good, because even if it is someone you like there are times that socializing together won't work, and it is good to communicate that.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by missing

But when I looked deeper I realized the negative feelings were stemming from my ego, and had nothing to do with the gay people approaching me.

Personally I think the gay guy was simply following Steve's advice:

Accuse someone else, thank you very much. What does being gay have to do with it??? I'm talking about someone asking to have sex with someone after talking with them for only twenty minutes at a coffee shop. Are you perhaps gay and overly sensitive, so you look for prejudice in places where it's not?

[missing]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

Accuse someone else, thank you very much. What does being gay have to do with it??? I'm talking about someone asking to have sex with someone after talking with them for only twenty minutes at a coffee shop. Are you perhaps gay and overly sensitive, so you look for prejudice in places where it's not?

no I am not gay.

There is nothing inherently "rude" about asking somebody to have sex with you after a 20 minute conversation at a coffee shop. I don't care if a man asks a woman, vice versa, or man asks man, woman asks women, trans asking whatever. The only rudeness comes from what society assigns to it. While some may consider it a bit forward and awkward, it's not illegal, so we DO condone it as a society, even if we don't encourage it. So long as there is no coercion, it's a simple request than can be declined. If you think making a request is like that "rude" that is your choice, but you can't force others to feel the same way, including the man making the request. To him, it might not be rude. Personally, I agree w/ him.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by missing

no I am not gay.

There is nothing inherently "rude" about asking somebody to have sex with you after a 20 minute conversation at a coffee shop. I don't care if a man asks a woman, vice versa, or man asks man, woman asks women, trans asking whatever. The only rudeness comes from what society assigns to it. While some may consider it a bit forward and awkward, it's not illegal, so we DO condone it as a society, even if we don't encourage it. So long as there is no coercion, it's a simple request than can be declined. If you think making a request is like that "rude" that is your choice, but you can't force others to feel the same way, including the man making the request. To him, it might not be rude. Personally, I agree w/ him.

When's the last time you were tested?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

When's the last time you were tested?

[jeff3]

What if had asked you to come over and play cards or watch a football game? Would that have been inappropriate or Skeevy (whatever that is)?
What this is really about is a sexually uninhibited person interacting with an inhibited/constrained person and sex is apparently something one of them doesn't feel comfortable asking for or, being asked for. I assume both of you are of "legal" age so no laws were broken, only social expectations were challenged.

I've actually learned something from this thread, and the link to Steve's article, If you want something, ask for it!!

[missing]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

When's the last time you were tested?

tested? for being gay? Where does this happen? How do they do it?

All I can go on is my experience. I've never been attracted sexually to other men, and I tend to not be a very happy personality. So in those two meanings of the world, I don't believe I am "gay" (if that is what you are asking). As far as I know, those are the only two meanings.

but I never claimed to have all the answers. so..

[Lauxa]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

He's upset he didn't stand up for himself when the guy turned out to be a pig.

I disagree, because he says he "saw it coming". I think he felt uncomfortable as soon as the old guy said he was gay. I think he felt guilty for continuing to take in the nice old gay man's affections and help for a while when he knew a proposition was coming and that he would decline it. I think if he had said "That's not what I'm into, but whatever floats your boat" or some such as soon as the topic of gayness came up he would have felt better about the situation because he would have been giving off clear signals.

The gay man was at least giving off clear signals of what he wanted. I wonder if the OP gives off such confusing mixed signals to women he is trying to approach?

[metamorph]

Originally Posted by Boreas

. It cut out any sexual, or relationship, tensions that seem to dominate all other interaction. If I meet a girl by chance there is always this underlying sexual or relationship tension that I just wish wasn't there. Girls usually break this tension by mentioning "their boyfriend" which is fine, but it does put the whole "tension" out there, which just makes things more awkward.

What do you really want when you meet women? Be honest to yourself. Is it really only friendship and no sexuality? If so, do you want to be single your whole life?

There is an underlying sexual tension because women screen your sexuality and vice versa. They mention their boyfriend either to tell you they are not interested or to test you: does that phaze you?

Originally Posted by Boreas

I have been operating on the premise for a while now, I smile and joke with strangers in coffee shops, in lines, and waiting rooms and I honestly enjoy it. I have come to "know" people at this Starbucks I am hanging out in. It might only be one or two sentences a week, but that is fine.

I am fine with moving forward meeting people, and putting this whole sexual tension thing aside: I just want to meet you and learn about your interests, opinions, and ideas, OK?

Maybe you are afraid to connect to your sexuality. Maybe you are afraid of intimacy, and you prefer the security of small talk with no strings attached.

Originally Posted by Boreas

But then what gets me is that women have in fact been made into a collective victim. I refer again to the relevant quote:

What is this world? One of constant defense and cynicism? For example, sometimes in a cafe a girl will give me a look like "don't even think about it" and then sit in a chair so that I get their back. It is hard not to take offense at this and think "hey I am a nice guy, not one of those jerks, let me prove it to you" or something

Where do you get this view from? Let me guess: your mother was telling you when you were young that most men are jerks and women like polite and nice gentlemen.

In our western world, at daylight, and in Starbucks (i.e. not a dark street at night), women are no victims at all. Women want sex as much as men, and probably even more. They can unmistakingly let you know they are not interested, and trust me they will in the very most cases.
What you see as defensive is either testing men or it is protection against guys like you, who try to buy themselves into their pants by being polite and nice. Believe me, the girl that gave you the looks and sat with the back to you, might have easily opened-up and walked away with the "right" guy if he had approached her. You may have been the right guy if you had not let her intimidate you, but approached her in spite of her behaviour. I.e. if you had shown that you are not sexually intimidated by women. And this behaviour has nothing to do with rudeness or not being nice! And yes, there will be women who take offense, but this does not make your expression of masculinity or sexulity offensive.

[oBakasan]

A similar situation happened to me before. I was at a conference and me and these two guys were discussing their business model and in the end one of them who was gay invited me to his room to have a look at the spreadsheets, which I was really interested in. And once we got there he suggested we initiate sexual contact. And I was like "What?"

So yes, I definitely learned what it feels like for a woman. The uncomfortable part wasn't that I was hit on by a guy, as I don't mind having sex with them, but the fact that this created an impression that he was only nice to me because he wanted sex. As well as it made me feel bad because even though I though I was just being myself, perhaps to him it seemed like I was leading him on or something.

Well, in the end that made the whole situation really awkward between us and me and the two guys kinda fell out and didn't really talk much since then.

The gay man was at least giving off clear signals of what he wanted. I wonder if the OP gives off such confusing mixed signals to women he is trying to approach?

So what does that mean, to give off clear or mixed signals? How does one give off "clear signals"? What was it that the OP and me did wrong in these situations that made the other parties feel like we wanted to have sex with them, while we clearly didn't?

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by jeff3

What if had asked you to come over and play cards or watch a football game? Would that have been inappropriate or Skeevy (whatever that is)?
What this is really about is a sexually uninhibited person interacting with an inhibited/constrained person and sex is apparently something one of them doesn't feel comfortable asking for or, being asked for. I assume both of you are of "legal" age so no laws were broken, only social expectations were challenged.

I've actually learned something from this thread, and the link to Steve's article, If you want something, ask for it!!

You should make a lot of friends that way.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by missing

tested? for being gay? Where does this happen? How do they do it?

Keep up will ya?! I'm talking about diseases. LOL

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

I disagree, because he says he "saw it coming". I think he felt uncomfortable as soon as the old guy said he was gay. I think he felt guilty for continuing to take in the nice old gay man's affections and help for a while when he knew a proposition was coming and that he would decline it. I think if he had said "That's not what I'm into, but whatever floats your boat" or some such as soon as the topic of gayness came up he would have felt better about the situation because he would have been giving off clear signals.

The gay man was at least giving off clear signals of what he wanted. I wonder if the OP gives off such confusing mixed signals to women he is trying to approach?

and I'm sure he didn't just come up to him and say, "Excuse me, I'm gay." (he was probably a little more tactful) Doesn't give him any indication that he's going to ask to get naked in twenty minutes. He did more than ask him out. He was treating him like a hooker except he didn't offer money.

[missing]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

Keep up will ya?! I'm talking about diseases. LOL

[Angela]

I also thought you meant testing for gayness, Danny. I thought it was pretty funny!

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

I disagree, because he says he "saw it coming". I think he felt uncomfortable as soon as the old guy said he was gay. I think he felt guilty for continuing to take in the nice old gay man's affections and help for a while when he knew a proposition was coming and that he would decline it. I think if he had said "That's not what I'm into, but whatever floats your boat" or some such as soon as the topic of gayness came up he would have felt better about the situation because he would have been giving off clear signals.

The gay man was at least giving off clear signals of what he wanted. I wonder if the OP gives off such confusing mixed signals to women he is trying to approach?

Right after the old guy told me he was gay, he asked if I was gay, and I said I wasn't... I don't know how I could have been more clear than that, and to me it would seem wrong to leave the table or cut off the conversation with the guy just coz he was gay...

Yeah, the whole conversation I was expecting him to hit on me in some way and I guess I just didn't want to believe it...maybe that is part of it...but I wouldn't say I was leading him on, I was just treating him like I would anyone I met...

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by metamorph

What do you really want when you meet women? Be honest to yourself. Is it really only friendship and no sexuality? If so, do you want to be single your whole life?

When I first meet a person (woman or otherwise) I take the approach to treat them as a person and only as a person. I wouldn't want to be extra nice to someone who is rich in the hopes they will let me drive their Mercedes any more than I would want to be extra nice to a woman in the hopes of getting her into bed.

Originally Posted by metamorph

There is an underlying sexual tension because women screen your sexuality and vice versa. They mention their boyfriend either to tell you they are not interested or to test you: does that phaze you?

Phaze me? Phaze me from what? You seem to have me pinned as some kind aspiring PUA and I simply am not. I think women mention a boyfriend because they are just so tired of being asked out by guys all the time and they just want to be treated as a person, and I can honestly understand that.

Originally Posted by metamorph

Maybe you are afraid to connect to your sexuality. Maybe you are afraid of intimacy...

When it comes to strangers inviting me to their hotel rooms then YES, I am afraid of intimacy.

Originally Posted by metamorph

Where do you get this view from? Let me guess: your mother was telling you when you were young that most men are jerks and women like polite and nice gentlemen.

I get the view that women are defensive because they have told me so. I have had girls tell me they try to take seats on the bus where no one can sit next to them so they don't get hit on...or they try to sit next to old ladies. Or try to choose places in a cafe where they can't make eye contact.

Originally Posted by metamorph

In our western world, at daylight, and in Starbucks (i.e. not a dark street at night), women are no victims at all. Women want sex as much as men, and probably even more. They can unmistakingly let you know they are not interested, and trust me they will in the very most cases.
What you see as defensive is either testing men or it is protection against guys like you, who try to buy themselves into their pants by being polite and nice. Believe me, the girl that gave you the looks and sat with the back to you, might have easily opened-up and walked away with the "right" guy if he had approached her.

I take the view that being extra nice to women is a problem because I want to try to get to know everyone on equal terms and treat everyone with equal actions. What is the other option? To strike up conversations with people because they are the opposite sex and good looking? I think that is the kind of shallow motive that is exactly the issue here. It was nice conversing with the old gay man, but asking me to his hotel room crossed a line that said: Who cares about who you are? I care more about how you look and your gender. That is insulting because it says that my physiology means more than my personality and my soul.

Originally Posted by metamorph

You may have been the right guy if you had not let her intimidate you, but approached her in spite of her behaviour. I.e. if you had shown that you are not sexually intimidated by women. And this behaviour has nothing to do with rudeness or not being nice! And yes, there will be women who take offense, but this does not make your expression of masculinity or sexulity offensive.

And how exactly do you propose I show her that I am not sexually intimidated by women?? WTF? As it happens I am not sexually intimidated by women, and I don't feel any real need to prove it to them. I think what you are suggesting would be a cause for offense and would be rude for the reasons that I just stated, I would be approaching her because of her gender and looks, not her personality. I don't approach people at starbucks in general because of social mores and time constraints. I find it a shame women have to have such defensive looks and behaivoirs in the first place and I wish it was a more free and liberal society where people could be treated on the basis on their personality and soul as opposed to their gender and body.

[jaamkie]

I wonder what this particular encounter was really like.... it is bad when it is fake and you can feel the person's desperation to impress you polluting any honest connection, and you know the proposition is coming, and your own reaction. Those situations are awkward because the person is being "nice" so you can't shoot them down preemptively, but you already can guess where it is going, and you're not getting anything real out of the interaction.

On the other hand, as a woman, YES there are times when I have a great conversation/connection with a random guy, we keep extending our time together and eventually end up kissing etc, possibly back to one of our homes eventually. It feels like a natural progression, quicker than fearful people would recommend, but when the connection is there, the feelings are real, and what is done is done honestly, knowing it may or may not work out, but the intentions are good, it often does lead to lasting relationships or friendships, and not to the feeling of "being used".

Are you upset because it was the former, fake superficial "nice", or because it was the beginning of the second, genuine connection nice, but you refuse to allow those feelings with another man?

[metamorph]

Originally Posted by Boreas

Phaze me? Phaze me from what?

What I am saying is, if you are really interested in them, you would approach them even if they sit with the back towards you. So what you see as their "defensiveness" in terms of "I want to be left alone", I see as them
raising the bar. You said, you always hoped that by chance you will find the right person. If you sit in Starbuck's waiting for women to give you a home-run, then do not hold your breath.

You say women never smile at you. How come? If I go to Starbuck's I see something different.

Originally Posted by Boreas

just so tired of being asked out by guys all the time and they just want to be treated as a person, and I can honestly understand that.

How about tired of being approached by the wrong guys all the time. Show me a woman who is genuinely pissed-off if Brad Pitt, George Clooney and then even Russell Crowe approached her on the very same day. Yes, they defend themselves against being bombarded by douche-bags, but not against men in general.

Originally Posted by Boreas

When it comes to strangers inviting me to their hotel rooms then YES, I am afraid of intimacy.

That is fine.

Originally Posted by Boreas

To strike up conversations with people because they are the opposite sex and good looking?....... I think that is the kind of shallow motive that is exactly the issue here. That is insulting because it says that my physiology means more than my personality and my soul.

Let's do a reality check here:

how many people have you met (not your parents) that were genuinely interested in your soul?

how many close female friends have you met outside your existing social circle (e.g. in Starbucks)? How many women go to Starbucks hoping deep down to finally meet a really nice male friend?

You became insulted because you have an idealistic concept of how the world should be, and then you are confronted with reality.

[Acting Like Godot]

What if the old man was genuinely gay ... genuinely horny ... and also genuinely helpful and kind? These attributes are not mutually exclusive, you know.

Now, I once got accosted by a stark naked gay man, while I was stark naked myself in the men's showers. THAT was scary.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by jaamkie

Are you upset because it was the former, fake superficial "nice", or because it was the beginning of the second, genuine connection nice, but you refuse to allow those feelings with another man?

I cannot say that the man was being superficial nice, though the encounter is a lot like you first described. I think I am upset simply because there was a higher premium placed on my body than making any lasting relationship...I don't like being undressed by other peoples eyes...

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by metamorph

How about tired of being approached by the wrong guys all the time. Show me a woman who is genuinely pissed-off if Brad Pitt, George Clooney and then even Russell Crowe approached her on the very same day. Yes, they defend themselves against being bombarded by douche-bags, but not against men in general.

I think what you are saying is that there are people that have good social skills and can be congenial in a variety of situations. Granted. Just as Steve is a better writer than most of us, people exist in the world that can have more meaningful social interactions as a matter of grace, style, and experience.

Originally Posted by metamorph

Let's do a reality check here:

how many people have you met (not your parents) that were genuinely interested in your soul?

how many close female friends have you met outside your existing social circle (e.g. in Starbucks)? How many women go to Starbucks hoping deep down to finally meet a really nice male friend?

You became insulted because you have an idealistic concept of how the world should be, and then you are confronted with reality.

I get the feeling from your questions that you have stereotyped me, or pinned me down in your mind as some kind of "type" of person. Please resist doing that. What are your ambitions when meeting people?

For me it is to find out what they have learned from life, what their ambitions and passions are, and what their experiences have been. To me, these are the major components of their personality, sense of humor, and soul. When I ask these questions, I often get the same ones back, and I have had many meaningful(soulful) interactions with people.

I ascribe to the transcendental notion that we belong to one soul and one consciousness. Please read Steve's article on this if you haven't already:

Soulful Relationships

[metamorph]

Originally Posted by Boreas

I think what you are saying is that there are people that have good social skills and can be congenial in a variety of situations. Granted. Just as Steve is a better writer than most of us, people exist in the world that can have more meaningful social interactions as a matter of grace, style, and experience.

But my point is, it is not the skill level we have, that entitled us to express ourselves: to "write" or "approach strangers" or whatever.

Originally Posted by Boreas

I get the feeling from your questions that you have stereotyped me, or pinned me down in your mind as some kind of "type" of person. Please resist doing that.

That feeling is in you I am just "reacting" to words that appear on my screen. You may be a 75-year-old grand-ma just shooting **** on an internet forum, who knows...

Originally Posted by Boreas

What are your ambitions when meeting people?

Varies with the person I meet. I do not have a goal in my mind. Call it vibing and letting the interaction unfold. Not searching for the blueprint of someone's soul with everyone I meet anymore.

Originally Posted by Boreas

For me it is to find out what they have learned from life, what their ambitions and passions are, and what their experiences have been. To me, these are the major components of their personality, sense of humor, and soul. When I ask these questions, I often get the same ones back, and I have had many meaningful(soulful) interactions with people.

That is all fine. And that is what you got in the case of the old grand-pa. He has given you very open and intimate insights into his personality and soul and motivations. This may not have been noble or subtle, but it was "genuine". If you look for depth, are you prepared for that?

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by metamorph

That is all fine. And that is what you got in the case of the old grand-pa. He has given you very open and intimate insights into his personality and soul and motivations. This may not have been noble or subtle, but it was "genuine". If you look for depth, are you prepared for that?

I think what the old guy did was unorthodox in our culture, but that doesn't make it genuine.

One human stabbing another human to death on the streets doesn't necessarily imply a genuine expression of the murder's feelings, what it shows is fear has eclipsed that person to unconscious action.

The old gay guy asking me to his room doesn't represent his true feelings of love or care for me, rather it represents a manifestation of desperation and suffering that this man need not feel and is not part of his true nature. The proposition to go to someone's hotel after knowing them for 20 minutes is the hallmark of a shallow relationship...

[metamorph]

Originally Posted by Boreas

I think what the old guy did was unorthodox in our culture, but that doesn't make it genuine.

That is your assumption since you have a different concept. What do you know about the gay community? Just read the other posters. Open gay approaches are not so unusual. For a gay this can not only be genuine, but also perfectly acceptable. Grand-pa probably would not have done it, if it had not worked before...

Originally Posted by Boreas

The old gay guy asking me to his room doesn't represent his true feelings of love or care for me, rather it represents a manifestation of desperation and suffering that this man need not feel and is not part of his true nature.

If you say you want to get to know the "personality", then be prepared for the dark sides. I do think if you really want to get below the surface you need to be prepared to examine the other person's fe*ces as well, and you cannot cherry-pick on only the divine aspects of a personality.
We are not dealing with someone's "Buddha nature" in everyday life. We are dealing with a person. And the best proof that you do not believe what you posted above is the fact that you are "insulted". If you truly knew he loves and cares for you, then you would have compassionately declined and not even raised the topic.

[oBakasan]

If you say you want to get to know the "personality", then be prepared for the dark sides. I do think if you really want to get below the surface you need to be prepared to examine the other person's fe*ces as well, and you cannot cherry-pick on only the divine aspects of a personality.
We are not dealing with someone's "Buddha nature" in everyday life. We are dealing with a person. And the best proof that you do not believe what you posted above is the fact that you are "insulted". If you truly knew he loves and cares for you, then you would have compassionately declined and not even raised the topic.

Metamorph speaks wise things. He gets my reputation.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by metamorph

If you say you want to get to know the "personality", then be prepared for the dark sides. I do think if you really want to get below the surface you need to be prepared to examine the other person's fe*ces as well, and you cannot cherry-pick on only the divine aspects of a personality.
We are not dealing with someone's "Buddha nature" in everyday life. We are dealing with a person. And the best proof that you do not believe what you posted above is the fact that you are "insulted". If you truly knew he loves and cares for you, then you would have compassionately declined and not even raised the topic.

If I understand your post correctly you are saying I couldn't handle this guys personality because I felt insulted. However, feeling horrible or insulted doesn't mean a person can't handle the "dark side of a personality" just as a boxer feeling pain doesn't mean he can't handle the punches. To the opposite, accepting and being aware of the pain and horrible feelings is integral in understanding the other persons personality, and our own. The goal in human interaction should not be some kind of numb immunity that says you are "tough enough" but rather a connection and acceptance of your own emotions. I accept this gay old guy for what he is, and I "raised the topic" because I thought the incident was interesting, and because there was/is mystery in my reaction to it, and the discussion from you and others has helped to clarify it.