This relationship has gone down the tubes

[Lara]

It just isn't worth trying to make it work any longer. The senseless arguments make me ill.

[Angela]

Then let it go with love. You may have some short-term pain, but you'll be grateful to yourself.

[Lara]

Originally Posted by Angela

Then let it go with love. You may have some short-term pain, but you'll be grateful to yourself.

Thanks Angela, that's the plan... until then I am affirming for the best outcome for the highest good of all and doing the footwork needed to progress.

[mattpd]

Originally Posted by Lara

Thanks Angela, that's the plan... until then I am affirming for the best outcome for the highest good of all and doing the footwork needed to progress.

the problem is the 'until then' part

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by Lara

It just isn't worth trying to make it work any longer. The senseless arguments make me ill.

I have never been able to make anything work. It either works or it doesn't.

I got into a particularly colorful argument with my girlfriend 3 or 4 months back and right in the middle of it all, I just stopped and said, "You know we don't have to be together. I will love you just the same. We don't have to make this work." The tension just floated out of the whole interaction.

Something about taking the should's, the have-to's and the need's out of it all.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by mattpd

the problem is the 'until then' part

Exactly. I wonder if 'until then' refers to the period of short term pain between when you say goodbye and you feel better, or if it refers to the period of time between now and you say goodbye.

If it's the latter, then you're not being honest with yourself -- in fact, it IS worth trying to make it work any longer, at least it is to you, because you're still in it. There's some sort of payoff you're getting by hanging around. And you're making that payoff, whatever it is, a higher priority than your partner's and even your own well-being.

[robc]

Originally Posted by Lara

It just isn't worth trying to make it work any longer. The senseless arguments make me ill.

I always hear people talking about arguing over the same things but in the end those things seem to be related to deeper issues which aren't really being discussed or resolved. The senseless arguments that are happening right now are really probably just covering up these deeper issues.

How about this relationship? How long have you been together? Married or just bf/gf? Kids?

Were you the only one trying to make it work?

Is there a trust issue, infidelity?

If you feel up to, post some details in the end, it can help relieve some of the weight of this problem that is currently burdening your shoulders.

Only if you're comfortable enough discussing this and want to talk.

[jaamkie]

why do you engage in the senseless arguments? when you stop caring about someone entirely, the arguments dry up, as you cease to really care who is right or whether the person understands your point of view. Often arguments start because someone feels neglected or misunderstood or suffocated or is too tired/depressed to make the effort to be civil... there must be some underlying reason for them- have you all ever calmly discussed it?

[Lara]

Originally Posted by mattpd

the problem is the 'until then' part

My bad... I meant until we separate... sorry for the error. I'm really quite done.

[Lara]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

I have never been able to make anything work. It either works or it doesn't. I got into a particularly colorful argument with my girlfriend 3 or 4 months back and right in the middle of it all, I just stopped and said, "You know we don't have to be together. I will love you just the same. We don't have to make this work." The tension just floated out of the whole interaction. Something about taking the should's, the have-to's and the need's out of it all.

Hello Mercury - that is right - we actually don't:"make" relationships work, they either do or they don't. What we can do is learn to live in harmony with one another. That is the way I live and I need people in my life to be on the same page.

The problem is he has tried to fool me for over 6 years and I'm fed up with it. I know what he's doing, he knows I know what he is doing and yet he denies reality and refuses to work with me. He's taken to putting me down and disregarding anything I have to say. When I am talking to him I can actually see that he is not in the least interested, he pretends to listen. He says one thing but does quite another and is destructively controlling and manipulative. This year he has actually begun undermining trust in my long time friendships with people when he realized I was not going to continue subsidizing him finacially. I knew these people before I met him - he has no friends of his own.
This weird behavior has had a negative effect on my relationships with long time friends as part of the manipulation is lie, divide and conquer. It's become painfully clear that he has issues best addressed by a shrink.

I worked hard for my inner freedom and sanity will not allow anyone to mess with that. I was actually beginning to feel a little crazy and thankfully, after a short vacation alone, realized it's not me, it's him.

Like you I've disengaged from any struggle "trying to make it work" and have begun the work of separating. I feel good about this. I just want peace.

Blessings,
Lara

[Lara]

Originally Posted by Angela

Exactly. I wonder if 'until then' refers to the period of short term pain between when you say goodbye and you feel better, or if it refers to the period of time between now and you say goodbye.

If it's the latter, then you're not being honest with yourself -- in fact, it IS worth trying to make it work any longer, at least it is to you, because you're still in it. There's some sort of payoff you're getting by hanging around. And you're making that payoff, whatever it is, a higher priority than your partner's and even your own well-being.

Sorry I wasn't more clear. I meant until we could actually separate financially and in space and time. I'm finsihed with this whole drama and am feeling no pain. In a short while he'll be gone and I am happy in that knowledge.

Whether I'll be able to repair friendships with the old friends now is another question. I introduced him to a work group I am a member of and he has ingratiated himself with everyone there and did some nasty damage by manipulating situations and pretending I was being very mean to him. The group president was quite upset with me for a long time and I had no clue why until she started saying things to me as advice that made absolutely no sense - LOL It's was like a twilight zone soap opera but it was my life for a little while. People actually began to treat me differently. LOL What a scene. He's a charmer - seemingly very sincere, honest, gracious helpful, generous, caring - he even cries on cue - but really, when looking at him now, I see him clearly for the user and manipulator he is. And I figure, if the old friends don't know me well enough to not believe everything they hear and the acts he puts on, without verifying things for themselves or asking me then they never knew me and aren't worth worrying about either.

Peace,
Lara

[Lara]

Originally Posted by robc

I always hear people talking about arguing over the same things but in the end those things seem to be related to deeper issues which aren't really being discussed or resolved. The senseless arguments that are happening right now are really probably just covering up these deeper issues.

Thanks for your concern RobC:

By senseless arguments, I mean just that - arguments that make no sense. I'm talking about peas and he's talking about snow - I'm asking a question about the weather and he's yelling at me for "always being so esoteric" - see - no sense. As I said in another post, I believe he has deep seated problems and needs professional help.

Pax, Lara

[robc]

Originally Posted by Lara

Hello Mercury - that is right - we actually don't:"make" relationships work, they either do or they don't. What we can do is learn to live in harmony with one another. That is the way I live and I need people in my life to be on the same page.

The problem is he has tried to fool me for over 6 years and I'm fed up with it. I know what he's doing, he knows I know what he is doing and yet he denies reality and refuses to work with me. He's taken to putting me down and disregarding anything I have to say. When I am talking to him I can actually see that he is not in the least interested, he pretends to listen. He says one thing but does quite another and is destructively controlling and manipulative. This year he has actually begun undermining trust in my long time friendships with people when he realized I was not going to continue subsidizing him finacially. I knew these people before I met him - he has no friends of his own.
This weird behavior has had a negative effect on my relationships with long time friends as part of the manipulation is lie, divide and conquer. It's become painfully clear that he has issues best addressed by a shrink.

I worked hard for my inner freedom and sanity will not allow anyone to mess with that. I was actually beginning to feel a little crazy and thankfully, after a short vacation alone, realized it's not me, it's him.

Like you I've disengaged from any struggle "trying to make it work" and have begun the work of separating. I feel good about this. I just want peace.

Blessings,
Lara

Originally Posted by Lara

Whether I'll be able to repair friendships with the old friends now is another question. I introduced him to a work group I am a member of and he has ingratiated himself with everyone there and did some nasty damage by manipulating situations and pretending I was being very mean to him. The group president was quite upset with me for a long time and I had no clue why until she started saying things to me as advice that made absolutely no sense - LOL It's was like a twilight zone soap opera but it was my life for a little while. People actually began to treat me differently. LOL What a scene. He's a charmer - seemingly very sincere, honest, gracious helpful, generous, caring - he even cries on cue - but really, when looking at him now, I see him clearly for the user and manipulator he is. And I figure, if the old friends don't know me well enough to not believe everything they hear and the acts he puts on, without verifying things for themselves or asking me then they never knew me and aren't worth worrying about either.

And don't take anything of what I'm putting together here personally, it's just an observation after reading what you've said.

You need people in your life to be on the same page as you. This sounds very controlling & manipulative - the very thing you are accusing your ex of being towards you. Why can't you allow people in your life to be as they are and accept them. If people fall out of line and don't conform to your views & opinions, then they can't exist with you. Is it possible that the harmony you seek with other people, is not with those other people but with yourself.

Control is an illusion, in reality you have very little control over pretty much everything including yourself. In fact, that is pretty much the reason you are angry and have found it difficult to find sanity & peace in your life.

You also mentioned that your ex denies reality and refuses to work with you. What must he do to make you happy. What would he have to do that allow you to be happy with him? He refuses to work with you - again this sounds like your trying to control his actions and his responses. Aren't we all individuals, aren't we allowed to behave the way we want. People rebel against people who try to control them, this is possibly what you may be seeing here - he doesn't want to listen to you because you are trying to make him do something. Let him be, focus on yourself.

Disengaging from the "struggle" as you put it probably did feel good, you let go of the need to control something/somebody and the energy you invested in that effort returned to you and allowed you to use it for yourself.

You mentioned that he was using you financially, did he force you at gun point to give him money? Maybe you are mad at your actions for loaning money and providing for him - you possibly gave him financial means so that he might return something else to you: love, friendship, intimacy? When you give something to somebody and expect something from them because of it, that is the definition of manipulation and that is horrible for relationships. The people that are with you begin to feel that they have a price when it comes to dealing with you, if you do something for them, they have to pay you back or be grateful - in a perfect world, reciprocation would be equal at both ends but we all know that doesn't work in real life.

Another thing you brought up was that he damaged relationships with old friends and became friends with those people and now you don't know if you will be able to repair those relationships with those people. You introduced him to your group of friends, isn't it logical to assume he might become friends with them as well. And do you really think someone has so much power of persuasion that all of your old friends would leave you at his bidding? Isn't it possible that your behavior with your old friends was similar to what it was with your ex? If so, isn't it possible that they began disliking this behavior and started distancing themselves from you because of it.

In the end, this is an online forum. I don't know you or your ex or your friends. But from my point of view based on the limited posts in this specific thread, I saw a recurring theme of "I need this... and he refuses to do this that I ask.... he took my friends away.... he doesn't conversate with me the way I want him too... I gave him money and he didn't treat me the way I wanted..." etc. etc. etc.

You were attracted into a relationship with him at one point and you chose to prolong that relationship with him because he exhibited specific traits that you enjoyed and wanted to continue experiencing. Love may also be involved. Hate too possibly.

I suggest (just a suggestion, you're free to do what ever you want), you live your life the way you want to live it and allow others to do the same thing. And as far as your friends are concerned, if they are really your friends, they won't drop you like yesterday's newspaper - good friends are just that, good friends, they accept you despite your flaws. It's a good rule of thumb, accept people as they are and they will accept you as you are - when you start controlling people and act negatively around them, people will instinctively remove themselves from this type of environment because it doesn't feel good to be around.

Let go of the need to control other people and their actions and focus on controlling your thoughts & actions, that is really the only amount of control you have.

Be happy, don't be happy, enjoy your life, don't enjoy your life, accept people as they are, don't accept people as they are. Just remember, in the end, your actions determine the quality of your life, your own personal happiness and whether or not you attract other people in your life to share experiences with you.

No one can make you happy except for you. People don't make you happy, you make yourself happy.

[Lara]

I'm going to respond between the lines as you 'read between the lines'

Please don't get me wrong RobC but really, your response is completely off target. I don't blame you for that. I did not present specific facts. Most of what I said, in retrospect, was a surface description of what was going on so I can see how you could internalize, project, interpret according to what associations my word conjured up in your mind.

No problem.

For more clarification the fact is this person and I had a platonic relationship. We were not romantically involved. We were friends.

So to begin :

Originally Posted by robc

And don't take anything of what I'm putting together here personally, it's just an observation after reading what you've said.

I promise not to take any of it personally as none f it, applies to the situation or to me. In light of the fact that you didn't have all the facts it's interesting that you interpreted the situation the way you did.

Originally Posted by robc

You need people in your life to be on the same page as you.

By the 'same page' I meant discussing peas if we are discussing peas. I also meant paying attention to what is being discussed and responding to those topics.

Originally Posted by robc

This sounds very controlling & manipulative - the very thing you are accusing your ex of being towards you.

Interesting leap there - Unfortunately not so. Part of the problem was his being so sneaky, controlling and manipulative. It took me awhile to realize it, but that's what was happening. It's my nature to believe that people are what they present themselves to be. He appeared to be a little rough around the edges but basically an honest person down on his luck; a victim of circumstances.

Originally Posted by robc

Why can't you allow people in your life to be as they are and accept them.

I couldn't be who I am if I did not allow everyone to be who and what they are. To be able to love others unconditionally we must be able to allow other to be as thay are without judgment or conditions.

Originally Posted by robc

If people fall out of line and don't conform to your views & opinions, then they can't exist with you.

Not at all I love and thrive on diversity in relationships, without it where would we be? If everyone believed, did and said the things I do, say and believe, life on this planet would be boring.

Originally Posted by robc

Is it possible that the harmony you seek with other people, is not with those other people but with yourself.

I am a calm harmonious person inside - usually. I teach meditation and have done for over 20 years. That's why the final confirmations of what this man was up to was such a surprise and so upsetting an experience.

For the longest time I kept thinking there was something wrong with me. I thought I was becoming senile at a young age. Have you ever seen the black and white classic movie Gas Light with Jame Mason? It's about a man who purposefully drives his wife crazy by moving things around to make her believe she was losing her mind. I think he was trying to get her to commit suicide so he could collect the insurance. She almost did but he tipped his hand and she was finally on to him. Great classic. Anyway my friend was actually doing things like that. He was deliberately trying to make me believe I was losing it so he could have more control of the running of things. He became upset with me when I drew the line at co-signing a large loan he wanted.

Originally Posted by robc

Control is an illusion, in reality you have very little control over pretty much everything including yourself. In fact, that is pretty much the reason you are angry and have found it difficult to find sanity & peace in your life.

Are you a shrink by profession? You sound like one.

I am at peace - I worked long and hard to Be at peace within myself and the world and have enjoyed that gift for many years now.

Over the last few months however I found that due to certain actions and the behavior of this person my peace was being eroded. When we got together to go over some business or socially he would start out by being normal but his behavior would soon disintegrate into angry and aggressive baiting, complaining, spiraling talk. He was very passive aggressive. People stopped talking to me and acted odd with me. I talked with them recently and discovered what the problem was. He had been telling them I said things about them that just weren't true. He'd also borrowed large sums of money from some of them.

Originally Posted by robc

You also mentioned that your ex denies reality and refuses to work with you.

Again this was a platonic relationship - in fact he was a protegee. I met him when he was almost homeless and helped him start a new life. He was in very bad shape mentally, spiritually and emotionally. I took him under my wing, helped him to find work and gave him work to do. He was around quite a bit and became a confidant in business and social matters. Last year, when I started rewriting my will his demeanor and behavior toward me changed radically. I had discussed the will with him asking his advice about how to divide my estate fairly amongst my family and friends (including him). Perhaps he thought he should have been left more than I was leaving him.

Originally Posted by robc

What must he do to make you happy.

He's done it. He is gone now. I asked him to move out of the guest house last week. I made sure he has a nice new apartment and have paid his rent for a year in advance.

Originally Posted by robc

What would he have to do that allow you to be happy with him? He refuses to work with you - again this sounds like your trying to control his actions and his responses. Aren't we all individuals, aren't we allowed to behave the way we want. People rebel against people who try to control them, this is possibly what you may be seeing here - he doesn't want to listen to you because you are trying to make him do something. Let him be, focus on yourself.

Are you talking about me or about an experience of your own. I don't mean to pry but you seem quite passionate in your detailed response. If he had agreed to see a professional I would have continued to be his friend and support him as such.

By 'refusing to work with me' I mean he gave lip service to the work we were doing together. He wanted an instant spiritual fix and as I am sure you know, there is no such thing.

Originally Posted by robc

Disengaging from the "struggle" as you put it probably did feel good, you let go of the need to control something/somebody and the energy you invested in that effort returned to you and allowed you to use it for yourself.

Disengaging from the struggle with someone who was no longer willing to work for his own liberation does not actually feel good. Letting go of the feeling that it was my failure did feel good. My work is to help people

with a great deal of potential to open to their life purpose. For the first time in my long life of helping people to do that quite successfully I've met someone so damaged, he thought he could con his way through the process. He would not do the foot work.

Originally Posted by robc

You mentioned that he was using you financially, did he force you at gun point to give him money?

Well if by "at gun point" you mean that he pointed a gun to his own head and said he was going to blow his brains out - my answer would be yes.

As I said , when we met he was just about to become homeless. He could not hold down a job, and was using drugs. He had no friends or family and I took him in.
(Continued in part II)...............................

[Lara]

continued from Part I:

Originally Posted by robc

Maybe you are mad at your actions for loaning money and providing for him - you possibly gave him financial means so that he might return something else to you: love, friendship, intimacy?

Not at all. I saw a desperate man in need and helped.

Originally Posted by robc

When you give something to somebody and expect something from them because of it, that is the definition of manipulation and that is horrible for relationships.

This manipulation theme runs throughout your response to me. Have you had problems with manipulation? Often people who are so concerned with the subject of manipulation have issues with it themselves - either as manipulator or the person who has been manipulated. Which were you?

Originally Posted by robc

The people that are with you begin to feel that they have a price when it comes to dealing with you, if you do something for them, they have to pay you back or be grateful - in a perfect world, reciprocation would be equal at both ends but we all know that doesn't work in real life.

It's interesting you say that. He kept trying to make me feel obligated to him by doing things for me, quite often things I did not ask him to do and would never have asked him to do, also he did things that did not have to be done. And often, after he did something he would remind me over and over and tell others about how he had helped me.

Originally Posted by robc

Another thing you brought up was that he damaged relationships with old friends and became friends with those people and now you don't know if you will be able to repair those relationships with those people. You introduced him to your group of friends, isn't it logical to assume he might become friends with them as well. And do you really think someone has so much power of persuasion that all of your old friends would leave you at his bidding? Isn't it possible that your behavior with your old friends was similar to what it was with your ex? If so, isn't it possible that they began disliking this behavior and started distancing themselves from you because of it.

Again, an interesting take or interpretation. I've known these people a great deal longer than I've known him. Many of them are business associates I've introduced him to to help him find the work he needed. As I mentioned above, I've spoken with them and we're all clear on what happened. He took them in with lies and innuendos and also borrowed large sums of money from a couple of them. He played us all off each other so we wouldn't compare notes. It was a con.

Originally Posted by robc

In the end, this is an online forum. I don't know you or your ex or your friends. But from my point of view based on the limited posts in this specific thread, I saw a recurring theme of "I need this... and he refuses to do this that I ask.... he took my friends away.... he doesn't conversate with me the way I want him too... I gave him money and he didn't treat me the way I wanted..." etc. etc. etc.

It's interesting that you saw it that way. I'll have to pay better attention when I am writing and not write when I am as distraught as I was the night of that first post - especially in an online forum.

Night and day, geese and cows!

Originally Posted by robc

You were attracted into a relationship with him at one point and you chose to prolong that relationship with him because he exhibited specific traits that you enjoyed and wanted to continue experiencing. Love may also be involved. Hate too possibly.

The relationship is over.
Quite true - Love - Agape love, unconditional love one human being for another - was definitely involved. I still Love him and pray for the best outcome for him - I just do not want his negative energy around me.

Hate? No, never hate. Hate is a waste of energy and very bad for the Universe. Did you know hate can give you pimples and make you look ugly. Not good. Not good at all.

Love is better by far.

As for the rest of your quote RobC - I leave that for you to re-read and contemplate for yourself and for others who may pass this way and read our discussion and benefit from it's wisdom.

It is very good advice.

Originally Posted by robc

I suggest (just a suggestion, you're free to do what ever you want), you live your life the way you want to live it and allow others to do the same thing. And as far as your friends are concerned, if they are really your friends, they won't drop you like yesterday's newspaper - good friends are just that, good friends, they accept you despite your flaws. It's a good rule of thumb, accept people as they are and they will accept you as you are - when you start controlling people and act negatively around them, people will instinctively remove themselves from this type of environment because it doesn't feel good to be around.

Let go of the need to control other people and their actions and focus on controlling your thoughts & actions, that is really the only amount of control you have.
Be happy, don't be happy, enjoy your life, don't enjoy your life, accept people as they are, don't accept people as they are. Just remember, in the end, your actions determine the quality of your life, your own personal happiness and whether or not you attract other people in your life to share experiences with you.
No one can make you happy except for you. People don't make you happy, you make yourself happy.

Peace and Love to you my friend ((((RobC))) Thank you for caring.
Lara

[Parthon]

Robc had some good advice, but like Lara, it definately didn't fit the situation.

Lara: It sounds like your guy there is a compulsive liar: Compulsive Lying - Truth About Deception

These are people who manipulate and deceive in order to trick others into control. They backstab and turn friends against you, and spread false rumours in order to paint themselves in a good light, and make you look bad by comparison. They are very toxic, and at a low level of awareness, probably wallowing in shame, guilt or fear. They wouldn't be so bad by themselves, but it's the fact that they are convincing and corrupt all of the relationships around you.

I have a great amount of love for people like this, only because they don't know what they do, and if they can see the light, they can become some of the most fantastic transformed people. Unfortunately, they need a lot of help to see the light, and even the strongest people aren't often enough to help them overcome it. The thing they need most is distance, like with a psychiatrist or therapist. If you are close to them, they will unconsciously try to pull you down to their level. If you are really involved with a compulsive liar, try to get out of the situation, wish him love, and get some distance. As much as you want to help them, the only thing you are really doing is hurting yourself.

It's a fact of life that there are people like this in the world, but just by growing ourselves, we can help to raise the general awareness, and hopefully, someday, theirs as well.