Personal Development and Pickup Artists

[MercuryLime]

Has anyone else noticed similarities between Steve's stuff and the work of pickup artists / dating gurus? I think wanting to understand attraction and relationships is another cause of people becoming interested in personal development (albeit they have a slightly different goal).

(Note: Please don't bash the morality of pickup artists, that's not the point of this thread.)

While sharing tons of similar concepts, two I found interesting are:

1) Intention-Manifestation and the Reticular Activating System: Both groups understand the importance of focusing on the positive and ignoring the negative (except to learn from). Most pickup artists encourage you to have the belief that all women are into you. By having this belief, your brain starts to find evidence of it in your interactions - this is an example of the reticular activating system (Steve covers this in podcast #16).

2) Polyphasic Sleep: In the book "The Game", a NY Times bestseller by Neil Strauss, Neil talks about how he and a friend tried to become polyphasic sleepers (but eventually failed in the last stages). The moment I read that part, I was reminded of Steve's experience with polyphasic sleep.

Personally, I'm interested in both pickup and personal development - a situation I doubt many others are in (from the fact that there seems to be a disconnect between the two groups). I think it's interesting how two separate groups reached a lot of the same conclusions for different reasons.

[shanky]

You're not alone. I had a little foray into the pickup artist world and noticed the same thing.

I found a lot of the guys interested in pickup rather creepy, but a lot of what they do teach is personal development. Improving your confidence, dressing better, developing a positive attitude, etc are just a few of the things they teach you.

I think pickup actually has a lot to offer if you focus on the personal development side of things.

-Shanky

[micth]

Originally Posted by MercuryLime

1) Intention-Manifestation and the Reticular Activating System: Both groups understand the importance of focusing on the positive and ignoring the negative (except to learn from). Most pickup artists encourage you to have the belief that all women are into you. By having this belief, your brain starts to find evidence of it in your interactions - this is an example of the reticular activating system (Steve covers this in podcast #16).

Yeah i think your right how both Steve and PUA's share these concepts on 'inner game'. But when it comes to 'outer game' (i.e all the techniques and routines) I think they differ on this. In steve's article '14 Reasons to become more conscious' he says that becoming more conscious makes it unnecessary to "comprehend a baffling set of complex social dynamics" as you'll be able to have interactions alot more naturally and effortlessly. So i think they disagree on this point, where Steve doesn't think you need all this 'outer game' stuff (eg mystery method, etc) because raising your consciousness will achieve the same results

[yossarian]

I've read a lot of the PUA material and in my opinion it boils down to two things:

1) How to be a genuinely attractive person

The essence of being a genuinely attractive person is really nothing more than having a deep sense of purpose and genuinely pursuing it in all your behaviours. Being congruent with a purpose and not deviating from that to please others is really the core issue with attractiveness. It comes down to being reactive vs. being proactive. Proactive people are attractive, and PUA skills largely work to either imitate proactivity, or to truly become proactive. Some gurus would rather imitate ("fake it till you make it"), some simply teach personal development skills to truly take control of your life.

2) How to convey your attractive personality in an extremely short period of time

This is more closely related to the "pick up" art. There are specific skill sets that can be developed to pick people up that depend on the environment and the type of people involved. If you want to have the ability to pick up anyone at a certain place in a certain amount of time, that is of course something you can achieve through learning little tricks. However, you'll never get anywhere good if you don't also achieve #1.

So guys like Mystery teach both #1 and #2 to various degrees. People who are genuinely attractive tend to attract those people who get to know them but aren't neccessarily good at meeting new people or picking people up arbitrarily.

Some of the "PUA gurus" are very personal development oriented. David DeAngelo is pretty much just a self-help guru who is focused on a specific type of person. The socially awkward nervous guy. I think David DeAngelo actually uses PUA as sort of a hook to get people to work on personal growth. It's like how Christian proselytizers will hook you in with their tracts and stuff like that. Sort of a bait-and-switch for the greater good

That's my take on it anyway.

[andrew]

I think that's how I came to personal development. I was like 17 and was so horrible with women and screwed everything up, so I figured I needed to get that under control. I'm heavily into David DeAngelo's material as I find it a lot more benifical to you as a person (Mastery Series), than just picking up women. So since then, it's snowballed into much more personal improvements, and I'm such a better person from all of it.

I think discussing it on this forum is great because most people here aren't going to be the type of people who are perverts that are going to be abusive and inmature with it.

[Razo]

Yeah, that's kinda what got me into personal development two, i was kinda fustrated with my lack of skills with the ladies, and read a few articles on askmen.com when i was 13 and as andrew said (i have the same name as u by the way lol) its snowballed into almost all categories of personal development, and having read 'The Game', as well as much of the material mentioned above i saw similarities aswell.

both materials have helped a lot in my life, and again as andrew said, its great to be able to discuss this with more mature people.

30 day trial for newbie PUA missions or more advanced approaches? sounds good to me.

[Gert-Jan]

Originally Posted by MercuryLime

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2) Polyphasic Sleep: In the book "The Game", a NY Times bestseller by Neil Strauss, Neil talks about how he and a friend tried to become polyphasic sleepers (but eventually failed in the last stages). The moment I read that part, I was reminded of Steve's experience with polyphasic sleep.

When I was researching polyphasic sleeping I stumbled across Steve's and Herbal, (the friend who also tries polyphasic) blogs: Tynan is… Better Than Your Boyfriend

Steve's blog reached me on a much deeper personal development level, Herbal's blog is more for fun

Since we are discussing personal development relatedness, I found much of the ideas Steve translate into personal development ideas originate in philosophy. Pick up Sophie's World if you are interested!

[Brendon Colby]

Originally Posted by MercuryLime

Has anyone else noticed similarities between Steve's stuff and the work of pickup artists / dating gurus?

Oddly, I've noticed the same thing, especially with David DeAngelo's stuff the inner game, etc. The problem I began having is that my purpose here is not to pick up women. That's ALL some of these dating gurus seem to do! So I took some positives from this stuff and have since moved on.

[Ulrik von Bek]

Carlos Xuma and Stephane Henson also have content (much of it free) that is really more personal development than techniques and lines.

[Wulfen]

Hi there,

I am Wulfen, and let this post serve as my introduction to these forums.

I am a Pick-Up Artist. I'm not a guru by any means, but I devote a lot of time to "sarging" as we call it. I have been in "the community" for more than 2 years, and I write regularly in the main seduction forums (Fast Seduction 101: Art of Pick-up and Seduction, abbreviated ASF - from "alt.seduction.fast"). In fact if any of you frequents that place you might have surely read my posts. Basically I focus on "natural game" (as opposed to "canned material") and on relationship management.

And I have to say that seduction and personal development have much more in common that it appears. Basically the majority of people in the ASF community strive to become better selves, that way becoming much more attractive to the opposite sex. For many of us, including myself, seduction was only the door to personal development. We want to become better persons, and becoming more attractive and seductive is just a part of it.

That's why I am here, because I wan to be also more efficient, more productive, financially independant and in general become the best myself I can be.

By the way, www.stevepavlina.com is often referred to in ASF, because it has a lot of good advice that can be applied to seduction. For instance the post on "Soulful Relationships" has been mentioned as an useful mindset to get rid of approach anxiety. As mentioned here, Herbal/Tynan, a prominent member of the community, and a really cool guy, is also a fan of this site. I remember a thread when we discussed how to manage polyphasic sleep when you are at night in the clubs picking up girls for several hours

So this is my story. I think that these forums will be an incredible meeting point for people with many interests, passion and above all a desire for achievent in life. I think we will be able to learn a lot from each other and have a good time.

Rock Hard, Ride Free,

Wulfen

[Wulfen]

Just a couple comments on what the others have said:

MercuryLime wrote:
>> (Note: Please don't bash the morality of pickup artists, that's not the point of this thread.)

Well, I think the gap that you mention, that exists between people interested in personal development and PUAs, is because of this: our activities are, plain and simple, very politically incorrect. Specifically because in seduction the roles of men and women are very defined, and assymetrical, thus seduction can be considered very sexist.

However, there is the undeniably truth that it works - anyone that has ever met a PUA in action can see it with his own eyes -, so it's a matter of each to try to learn it or to dismiss it for ethical reasons. Still, it's easier for a PUA to become interested in personal development, than the other way around.

Yossarian:
Your quick summary of what seduction is, is very spot on. For people interested in personal development, i.e. people that are already interesting, what they miss is just the second part, conveying it quicly. Many guys who already have an interesting life, and that girls would like them if they could know the "real selves", would benefit immensely from being able to convey their attractive traits in a short period of time.

Rock Hard, Ride Free,

Wulfen

[Calculusaurus]

David DeAngelo teaches 50% personal development and 50% seduction, but is advertised as only the latter. He teaches great, mature material that focuses on becoming a strong, emotionally stable, well-rounded, intellectual person.

I think the field of "seduction" is a great path to personal development. For many of us, thoughts of girls, relationships, and sex claim a significant portion of mental territory. On the outside we are normal people, expressing ourselves through our hobbies or interests. But inside our mental state seems to be solely dictated by our relationships, fantasies, and interactions with the opposite sex.

Since this is the case, since the obsessive thoughts of the opposite sex are intrinsically intertwined with who our "true selves" are, it only makes sense that improving this aspect of our lives is a very efficient and effective path of personal development.

By "improving this aspect of our lives" I don't necessarily mean "have more sex" or "find a girlfriend"; a great way to improve that aspect is to change perspective! Become an emotionally sound individual, so (in the words of DeAngelo) outside events don't destabalize you.

I've been listening to seduction material for two months now. I have noticed that I've become more attractive to women (many more show interest), but I have not yet found any relationships, flings, hook-ups, what-have-you. Regardless, the quality of my life has improved significantly because I am now very comfortable with everything that once caused so much anxiety in the past: I'd be comfortable in a relationship, I'm comfortable without one, I'm comfortable talking with women no matter the circumstance, I'm comfortable with the "games" women play, I'm comfortable with all of my thoughts, and I'm comfortable with myself. This is a drastic improvement from the old mindset, which included thoughts like, "I'll be happy once I have a girlfriend," and included the frequent frustration with women in general. The point is, listening to or reading "seduction" material has made me much more comfortable with the fact that I'm not in a relationship.

My only wish is that more guys were open to it. Most guys wouldn't be caught reading a seduction book--there are several reasons why. But in the end it's all very helpful and intelligent stuff.

[darkmoon]

This is all very interesting! A couple of years ago I was subscribed to David DeAngelo's newsletter, and I have learned a lot from them. I too noticed similarities between what David says and what Steve says!

Since I have a stable relationship, I had abandoned the dating scene. Which is maybe unfortunate, because there's so much I still have to learn.

It's really amazing to see all my interests coming together on this forum!

[ViceVirtue]

I've had the desire to learn about personal development and find resources like this one for years, and the way I ended up here was actually through the pickup artist community. I read "The Game" because it seemed interesting and then I digged a bit deeper into ASF and found a few people referencing Steve Pavlina... and the rest is history. I was actually waiting for a thread like this one to pop up, because I bet there are quite a few people here from that community.

[andrew]

We are wired to survive, and as a species we are to reproduce. So most of our functions and thoughts are related to that, thus a lot of our energy is put into sex/relationships (for lack of better words). So if you aren't good at relationships, you're going to do either 2 things: give up and usually not be very fufilled, or put more energy into it and work harder.

So let's go with option 2. That would be most of us. Let's assuming to qualify for #2, you don't need to try and learn, you can just suck and don't get better, but you keep at it. Now a greater portion of your time and energy is devoted to sex/relationships. Now imagine if you got that area handled. You had no problems with or without sex/relationships and you were an ace.

Guess what? All that time and energy you were putting into it, has greatly decreased (theoreticly let's say you know all you want to know). You now have that area in your life mastered and have all this extra time and energy to do other things! I think this is a very important thing.

It's not all about getting laid, but getting that area of your life under control so you can enjoy it and spend more time doing things you love instead of worring about it.

Just my $0.02

[m00j]

I seem to have gone the other way from most other people. I started reading Steve's site first and after a while realised that dating was something I wanted to improve in my life. I have always had plenty of female friends just not many girlfriends as when I am meeting new people I am more reserved.

Personally I am a fan of David DeAngelo's work as I agree it is mostly about personal development in regards to becoming a more mature, emotionally stable person. I am also a fan of the Charisma Arts stuff which is about becoming a more charismatic and fun person to talk to.

There is a big negative connotation to the whole industry but my view is that if I teach myself to be a better person, I become that better person. I am happier, and I enrich the life of whoever I meet.

[moltar]

Sometimes I think DavidD and SteveP are the same person. I wonder if they ever met and know each other...

[darkmoon]

Originally Posted by andrew

It's not all about getting laid, but getting that area of your life under control so you can enjoy it and spend more time doing things you love instead of worring about it.

This is so true! Exactly what I experienced!

[Dave Kaminski]

I was never interested in PUA, but always interested in being a more attractive male. I invested my time in Zan's Enlightened Seduction, and I think anyone who is working on meeting and dating girls should do the same! He's good at expressing his approach and showing how morality ties in.

[Merovingian]

Interesting thread! I second the vote for Zan's stuff.

Years ago, he was just about the only one of the pickup gurus advocating respect and honesty. He's an unabashed lover of women, and yet he's always taught that tactics and techniques are largely irrelevant.

A lot of women view this whole pickup artist business as little more than thinly disguised (or blatantly overt) manipulation. In other words, what has always been missing is the blessing of women. And yet Zan's approach has it. From what I have heard, a lot of women attend his seminars.

I met him over a year ago at a book signing of "The Game" in NYC (there's a chapter about him in the book), and have been interested in his approach ever since.

There's also a video making the rounds on YouTube right now where he is holding court in a restaurant. He is apparently talking to Neil Strauss and Thundercat and a few others in that video. I don't have the link, but just search for "Zan in Chicago".

Definitely a lot of similarities between this and Steve's stuff!

Merovingian

[MercuryLime]

Wow, guess I was wrong about being the only one who's learned PUA material.

The way I see it, there's the people like Steve who go into personal development because they care about the world, and the people like David DeAngelo, who turn to personal development to increase their success in life (especially concerning women and dating).

Although some PUA's are pretty immoral and cause pickup and seduction to be associated with a lot of negative stuff... Most of the more mainstream ones like David D, Carlos Xuma, and Style seem to be pretty good people - but all it takes is a couple bad apples for the whole game to get negative connotations around it.

If anybody has heard of David D's '77 Laws' program, I would recommend it. He's really maturing as a person and is starting to become a respectable guy. A lot of the concepts are very inner game and personal development related.

I also found it ironic that there's a "Steve P" in the PUA community - the shamanistic / hypnosis guy...

[Hsiang-Lin]

Haha, didn't expect to find so many people here who were like me! I also started in the PUA world first and then found this website.

When I start reading Steve's articles I was like wow, Steve Pavlina is the ultimate PUA!

Also, he helped me overcome one of my biggest fears: fear of rejection. After reading one of his articles, I went out and asked 6 random girls out. Their reactions were pretty funny and it was an awesome experience. I felt like a huge burden had been lifted off my chest. Personal development kicks ass!

[Dating Specialist]

Originally Posted by Hsiang-Lin

Haha, didn't expect to find so many people here who were like me! I also started in the PUA world first and then found this website.

When I start reading Steve's articles I was like wow, Steve Pavlina is the ultimate PUA!

Also, he helped me overcome one of my biggest fears: fear of rejection. After reading one of his articles, I went out and asked 6 random girls out. Their reactions were pretty funny and it was an awesome experience. I felt like a huge burden had been lifted off my chest. Personal development kicks ass!

Well then it looks like there's a new community and definition on PUA. While PUA gave me the initial opinion that it's all about the pick-up rather than the real knowledge of building up your innerself and to know how to maintain a loving relationship, I guess now I'm changing my mind towards some of the PUA at work.

I too wrote about the secrets to Upping Your Attraction Quotient. I am a firm believer in Personal Development and Growth and how it helps in love and relationships and attraction. So Steve's stuff is really excellent!

[Colm OReilly]

Really interesting thread.

I work with a lot of guys in the community. For the majority, however, they are looking for the quick fix. A thread about the latest line will always get a better response than an "inner game" thread. Despite all the truly successful guys devoting most of their time to themselves most people still don't want to do the work on improving themselves.

I guess the smart people come to these boards

Colm

[greys]

Anything which involves your self-improvement ends up being a part of personal development.

For PUAs, it is essential to grow yourself so much that you learn to gain confidence from any outcome of any situation, and switch into an always-learning mode.

It is also important to learn recognizing the situation around you, read body language, control your emotions, feel (at least visibly) natural in any conversation, etc. - all these things are personal development.

I think it takes time and determination to become a real pick-up artist. It's a form of art, and I believe best people in the field have mostly good intentions.

But you probably can't say the same about people who read about PUAs and decide to get into the game just for the sake of easy sex.

[Scott H Young]

With most of the single guys I've talked to I have seen an almost universal desire to be better with women, even if they are already doing good. I am a fan of much of the attraction self-help material put out there.

Neil Strauss once made the comment that women have magazines like Cosmo to give them self-improvement advice for how to find a man, whereas there is no suitable alternative for men (he points out that magazines like Maxim show women but don't offer any advice on how to attract them).

And since our culture is geared towards men having a more proactive role than women in this area, if you don't actively practice, learn and improve you can't get better.

[moltar]

Some say that this sort of "pick-up" is wrong and immoral. I'd have to disagree. Some of the stuff in the "community" is really good. Like it was already pointed out here: DavidD, Neil.

I think it was DavidD that points this out. Women generally (not all) are way more "manipulative" if you think about it. They spend hours in front of the mirror putting make-up and dressing up sexy to attract men. That's because men generally (not all) "judge by the cover" first, and only then look on the inside. Women care less about the looks and more about the personality of a man.

I think working on the "inner game" is the way to go. It isn't some tool or tactic that you use. When you get your inner game in order, that's who you become, it's not "pretend-to-be-me", IT IS me now.

[Hsiang-Lin]

Dating Specialist,

I thought the same way at first when I got into it, but a part of me always knew something was wrong if I had to pretend to be somebody else to get women. Steve's articles just instantly strung so many chords with me when I first read them that I almost felt like it was a part of myself speaking back to me.

I'm by no means a master PUA yet (I'd say far from it), but I still support the community because I think at its core, it really is about personal development. I read so many quick fix articles about dating and women that when I read about the mentality of Neil Strauss, Mystery, and Zan I felt they were promoting something very different.

They always say it's completely our own fault for not getting women, which totally clicks with me as I believe we must take 100% responsibility for our lives.

Although I have to admit, sometimes it's fun just to go out and sarge with failure in mind

[Haurum]

I think that almost all of the material in the PU community that seems to have similarities with all the personal development material actually IS the result of the personal development materiels... for example i know that David D didn't figured out all the things himself, he's constantly referring to personal development materials, which of course is his inspiration. Moreover, i'm in the PU community myself, sarging a lot, and using a lot of times reading about pickup, watching DVD and so on.. i've been in a nationwide newspaper about PU, and don't have a problem about people knowing that i'm into it.. i don't have anything to hide.. going on nationwide TV soon by the way. Personally i started with personal development (7 habits of highly effective people)...

[Scorpio]

I agree with what everyone's said about PUA material being useful and related to personal development.

One thing I've noticed about guys into this stuff is that they're pretty secretive and defensive about the whole thing. They seem to really like the 'secret society' aspect of it. Is it really such forbidden knowledge? Is the normal world really that hostile towards guys who want to get laid?

I really don't think it's all that big a deal. Guys want to pick up women. They're going to learn about it. Everyone knows that. As long as you're learning stuff that isn't manipulative or weird, and you're not overtly telling women what you're doing, what's to be so sly about?