Personal Development and Pickup Artists

[cylon]

I read a lot of the seduction/PUA material. For me it helps understand human nature. But I've noticed two types of people in this "community", the ones who are terrified of knowing themselves so they convince themselves all they want is the conquest of sex, and that emotions and feelings are for women. The other type are looking for successful relationships, but realize there is a lot of BS involved, games that must be learned in order to get from point a to b. I would say that's the type that is most similar to people learning personal development.

I guess I'm in the middle.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

The reason for the numbers is that you don't, and shouldn't, go after a woman you don't think is good-looking, for whatever reason. It's bad for you and it's bad for her.

To expound on this briefly: there's a societal expectation that you should stick to dating/seeing people whose appearance is 'in your league'.

The implication hiding behind the numbers is that you should overcome your fear of approaching women that you find genuinely attractive. Sure, once you get to know them, you may find you're incompatible for other reasons. But it's not fair on either of you to not even attempt a potentially great match just because she looks great!

If this idea ("go for what you really want") was expressed in any other personal development context, everyone would be nodding in agreement.

[Dr Gonzo]

Hi Velvet,

Thanks for the reply. An interesting discussion. I hope I can provide some more answers and insight into the pickup arts, which I've found to be one of the most interesting subcultures I've ever come across.

Originally Posted by Velvet

Doctor Gonzo:

This reminds me, in a way, of the "Rules" brouhaha from about 10 years ago. Some desperate/hurt women read the book to learn how to "catch a man," and manipulate him into marriage, and some more thoughtful women read the book and applied whatever nuggets of wisdom (amongst the more objectionable text) for empowerment.

Indeed. There are women involved in "the community" as well, some of them from an interest in the psychology of male-female relationships, some bisexual or lesbian women interested in learning practical skills for meeting quality women (although that is a very different subject than men picking up women, in that the dynamic of the interaction is totally different), some interested in picking up girls for threesomes with a male partner, some just curious about this interesting subculture.

It's not just the "PUA community" and "the rules" type books though - society as a whole encourages women to work on being more attractive to men, a lot of mainstream womens culture is about this - go and look at any newsagent and the shelves are stacked with womens magazines of which the predominant content revolves around beauty, attracting men, sex and relationships. Sex sells and there are a lot of companies which make a lot of money out of womens desire to meet and attract desirable men.

Mens mainstream culture also revolves around the same thing in a lot of ways - cars, sports, fitness, going out, status symbols like expensive watches, fashion etc.

The trouble is while the advice given to women generally works, the advice given to men generally doesn't.

Consider for a moment a man and a woman, both with an attractive and pleasant personality, let us also say that they are both of reasonable physical attractiveness with a pleasing face and in good physical shape as far as general fitness goes. The womans method for attracting men is to use makeup tastefully, have her hair done nicely, wear attractive clothes which suit her and accentuate her best physical features. Because she has read womens magazines for years (or at least been exposed to the same sort of ideas in one form or another) she is also good at flirting, has good body language and is comfortable with herself and has good self esteem and considers herself sexy and desirable.

The mans method for meeting women consists of wearing expensive designer clothes, a fashionable designer watch, driving a desirable and expensive car etc. (jeez, I sometimes make myself feel a bit sick imagining these guys). All outward status symbols meant to convey that he is a successful and eligible man.

Who do you think will have more success? Who will have more power and choice in their romantic life?

What women are told men want is not entirely accurate (in fact, once a man gets more power and choice in this area, he starts to realise how few really high quality women there are out there), but it is close enough that the woman will attract a lot of men and will have power and choice in this area of her life.

What men are told women want is a total sham, a lie told to sell junk we don't need and which we often don't really want in the hope that it will make us more attractive to women.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong in having a nice watch, nice clothes, a fast car or any other status symbol type object - if you really want it, for yourself. Not so someone else will be impressed.

I personally couldn't care less what someone I've just met thinks of me - I'm much more interested in what I think of them. Even if I had the status symbol objects, I would quite deliberately hide them when I met women to see if they liked who I was rather than the objects I had.

The advice that would really make a difference to the guy would be about developing strength of character, high self esteem, confidence both in himself and around women, learning how to flirt properly etc. This advice and any role models for it are conspicuously absent from modern mainstream culture.

Look at modern male role models, as compared to role models from say 30 or 40 years ago. Most women can relate to the fact that men are not encouraged to be men any more - I'm not talking about machismo, I'm talking about self confidence, self assuredness, strength of character, independence.

Women are also dismayed with what the last few decades have created - while there have been many positive changes in society which have led to women having more power and choice, a new breed of girly-men have also been created who won't stand up to a woman, who fall all over themselves trying not to offend anyone and who most women don't find viscerally attractive, even though they may like them and enjoy their company. In fact, often they even end up marrying these pliant, easily manipulated men who fit in with the modern womans agenda to "have it all" and if any man is going to get in the way to hell with him, but these women inevitably end up disatisfied and unhappy - they've traded real fulfillment, passion, adventure and growth for a vacuous and shallow dream sold to them by a culture that revolves around consumption and acquiring things.

Younger girls still tend to go for the "bad boy" types of boys who, while they haven't developed into mature men (perhaps in part due to the lack of role models for what a man is supposed to do and be), and who often lack integrity and strength of character, offer the visceral attraction and excitement they want. When a woman gets a bit older and realises she wants more stability it has become a depressingly familiar sight to see her dragging around a dull wimpy man who doesn't answer back, takes all her moody emotional ************, offers no challenge, danger or excitement and generally has been molded into what she thinks she wants. Trouble is, what we think we want often isn't what truly fullfills us - think of what most men would mold if given the chance to design the "ideal woman" then look at a woman of true substance and quality and you'll see the exact same thing.

Anyway, I'm going way off topic - my point was that self improvement material per-se if never bad nor good. It's about how you use it. So I agree with your original point about the rules above, and I wholeheartedly encourage both men and women to work on this area of their lives along with the other areas that are important to them. For all the admonitions that one must use the material correctly though, it is always better to be doing something rather than nothing - even if you start of going in a negative direction with this stuff, it is highly likely that just doing something and getting momentum will eventually lead to a genuine improvement.

I do question whether all of your brethren are as thoughtful and honest about their intentions as you are, Gonzo. After all, it's called "seduction" and being a "pickup artist"--these terms are pretty drenched in negative connotations.

Go and look at some womens magazines some time and look at just how negative and selfish some of the attitudes towards men are. I'm not condoning it or condemning it, just observing that it has become socially acceptable for a woman to "have it all", get what she wants and ruthlessly pursue her goals. Men doing this are berated as sexist pigs.

Honestly, the majority of guys in this community are great guys working to improve themselves. The seduction community is about much more than getting women too - all the forums I participate in have posts on health, wealth building, general self improvement. I found "the community" via other self improvement material, but for some guys it's their introduction to this stuff and makes a big difference to them in all areas of their lives. Yes, there are some pretty wierd guys there too - but show me a forum without them.

Lastly, the reason "seduction" and "pickup artist" are drenched in negative connotations is because of social programming. I see nothing negative at all about seducing someone - I enjoy being seduced by women, and they enjoy being seduced by me. As for "pickup artist", I would never call myself that, and I tend not to use the jargon that has built up around the community much, but it's just a phrase, and I have no problem with guys using it. I mean, to me, it means a guy has learned to make meeting a girl an art form - most girls have never been approached in such a way, and would love the experience.

Also, as for whether everyone is as thoughtful and honest as we might like, that is not a quality of guys who are a member of "the community", is is widespread in society as a whole. Among men as well as women.

CONTINUED IN NEXT POST

[Dr Gonzo]

CONTD...

In the pick-up literature I've seen (links provided in this very forum), I see women referred to as numbers--"8s" and "10s"--which I find chilling and dehumanizing, not to mention judgmental. Something tells me you're not factoring in her SAT scores here.

Firstly, girls do exactly, and I mean exactly the same thing to men. Sure, they may not use a number to quantify it, but they will talk endlessly amongst themselves about the pros and cons of a new guy, and they will most certainly "dehumanize" him in the process. Women can be every bit as insensitive and selfish as men.

Secondly, most guys I've met DO factor in personality to these numbers. If I get a call from a friend saying "man, I had an amazing night last night, I met a solid 9, absolutely awesome girl" I can take absolutely for granted that he is not talking only about her physical appearance, although that will obviously be one factor among many. I will be happy for him that he's clearly met a girl with a great personality - he wouldn't be talking about her so highly otherwise - we are not talking about a guy who doesn't get girls here (men who don't get girls tend to objectify them, they are living in a world where they cannot afford to discriminate on criteria other than looks, so they will be bowled over by her physical appearance), we are talking about a guy who has power and choice with women and as such he can afford to be pickier and more discriminating - a pretty face and a hot body will be commonplace to him, so he will be looking for more than that when he evaluates a womans potential.

Also, a lot of people dislike using numbers to quantify attractiveness (by which I mean both looks and personality), however that doesn't mean they are not quantifying it anyway. I don't often refer to a girl using a number, but if I say to a friend "I met a girl last night who was really cute and fun, I don't think we're totally compatible, but we liked each other and I'm going to meet her and see what happens, maybe we'll have some fun for a while...." this might equate to a 7, if I said "wow, I met this totally awesome girl last night, we just gelled on so many levels, she's beautiful, intelligent, caring...." this might equate to a 9. I don't see there's much difference between using words or numbers to signify the same thing.

Look, ultimately why do you think the guys from these forums are getting massively more success with women than they used to, and massively more success than the average guy off the street? I can tell you this - guys who objectify and rate women soley on their physical appearance aren't having this sucess. Why are we doing stuff other guys think only happens in the movies? Women are not stupid, and are in fact highly intuitive at sniffing out a fake man. It is not because we have learned to "trick" girls, it is because we are offering women something they truly want.

If you're interested in seeing the better side of pick-up literature (and I'm sure you'd find it an interesting read) check out Dimitri's blog - Charisma Arts

Also, someone asked about parenting upthread and I'd be curious to hear a reply about that. With all this picking up (and presumably putting back down) where does child-rearing fit in? Does the ultimate PUA vision include a world full of single mothers? Seems to me we've got that situation already and it's not benefiting anyone.

I don't want children. Ever. I guess a lot of guys do, I've never heard of a guy off any of these forums who wants to be an absent father. Although no one person can speak for "the community" I will say that if a guy were to post that he was reckless in this regard he would be met with derision and admonished to be a man and face up to his responsibilities.

I dunno, is any part of that true? Is more sex "always" a good thing?

Perhaps not, but as much as you want is always a good thing. Abundance rather than scarcity is always a good thing. It is for each individual to decide how much is enough for them.

Is it possible to have "more love"?

Yes, I think it is. I feel more abundantly loving and loved when I meet new wonderful people to share good things with. For a lot of guys who have struggled with their relationships with women, to suddenly find that they have power and choice in this area of their lives and can more easily find girls to share good things with, they certainly feel more love in their lives.

(How are you defining love here?)

You want me to define love? What next - a definitive definition of art? To simultaneously cook an exquisite lobster thermidor and conduct a light opera with one hand tied to the opposite foot whilst whistling an intricate Bach fugue? ;-)

Is "more fun" always a good thing?

No, absolutely not. There is a limit to how much fun is right and proper, and we should all observe strictly the "fun quota" alloted to us. We'll have none of that "more fun" business round here.

Whence this "more more more" mentality?

I guess I am insatiable. No, not really - actually I'm pretty happy and content without a constant need for "more" of anything, that doesn't mean it's not a good thing to get more though, just that it's a good thing not to feel like you need it.


Gonzo

[Dr Gonzo]

Originally Posted by Keith

To expound on this briefly: there's a societal expectation that you should stick to dating/seeing people whose appearance is 'in your league'.

Keith,

An interesting and insightful short post from you. Thanks.

What you've said about being "in your league" comes back to what I said in my reply to Velvet - society sells us the idea that we have to be or have something in particular to be attractive to a certain person.

For example, men are sold the idea that they have to be a rich, successful, muscular adonis to get a woman like those we see advertising expensive watches, cars, boats etc. in the media. Absolute nonsense.

Women are likewise sold the idea that to get a man like those they see in films or in womens magazines that they have to conform to a social stereotype of physical beauty. Absolute nonsense.

My interest in the pickup field goes much deeper and broader than even the self improvement area - it comes back to the more basic task of taking control of your own mind and saying "shut the ************ up" to the socially implanted voices in your head put there by the media, advertising, peer pressure and myriad other sources which are telling you that you need to buy something new, be something different or conform to what someone else wants to have happiness, fulfilment and to get the things you want.

Gonzo

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo

I can tell you this - guys who objectify and rate women soley on their physical appearance aren't having this sucess. Why are we doing stuff other guys think only happens in the movies? Women are not stupid, and are in fact highly intuitive at sniffing out a fake man. It is not because we have learned to "trick" girls, it is because we are offering women something they truly want.

I'm glad you pointed this out. I don't think I'm different than any other guy. If I see a really attractive woman clearly I'll be interested. But if I meet a girl who isn't as good looking, and who l connect with, I am going to be more interested in her, even though physically she may not be "as attractive" as a 9 or 10.

I know guys who are on the darker side of what you've brought up, and refuse to see any other qualities than looks, they thinks once you notice these things you're an AFC. I'll check out the link you provided. The seduction site I go to (you probably know it) is cool but a little too negative for me.

[Dr Gonzo]

Originally Posted by cylon

I'll check out the link you provided. The seduction site I go to (you probably know it) is cool but a little too negative for me.

Dimitri's blog is pure solid gold. Absolutely the best blog on this subject I've seen. I look forward to meeting him at some point, he comes across as a really interesting and cool guy.

There is a lot of negativity in many resources, not only in the pickup community, I guess part of the learning curve is learning how to sift out the good advice, and giving back as much positive useful content as possible. Although I recognise the negativity out there, I don't dwell on it and instead try and focus on what I can do to contribute good content.

Gonzo

[Isis Kali]

Thank you for you replies. I'm kinda on the run right now, but I'll write more later.

I don't know. I'm still not getting a good feeling about this stuff. It's interesting, though.

[Xin]

I just feel I have to post this. The Blueprint Decoded, launched by RSD, was the thing that helped me the most regarding girls, and also on life overall. Priceless stuff.