Personal Development and Pickup Artists

[moltar]

One thing I've noticed about guys into this stuff is that they're pretty secretive and defensive about the whole thing.

I get that feeling sometimes too. I think most guys do it out of feeling of scarcity. They think if all guys know this, then there isn't going to be enough smart and good looking women left

I think this should not only NOT be secret, this should be taught and encouraged to be learned. In fact, this used to be a common knowledge back in the day. We, as men, are loosing the "manliness" because of society programming and media. We always hear (sometimes directly sometimes not) that it's NOT ok to be men.

Smart and educated women who meet a REAL man and then learn that he wasn't born like that, but had to do it the hard way and learn it, aren't going to be put off by that, but in fact, I think she'll be glad and proud of him.

[Michael Chui]

Heh... when I was shown the community this summer, I was specifically asked not to spread it around because it's not good that people know about this.

I haven't reconciled this with my own views on sexism, though, and I'm wondering what will end up outputting from my mind once I do.

[Scorpio]

I think when the 'seduction community' started it was geared more towards esoteric 'secret' techniques and NLP style manipulation. I could see wanting to hide that, especially if you have the notion that it's super effective. And some of that stuff is pretty weird too.

As the community is maturing it's moving more towards general self-improvement and 'natural game' (i.e., being a guy who's naturally attractive to women) teachings, though there's still a lot of the other stuff.

There's really nothing to be ashamed about admitting you want to improve yourself to get girls. I'd like to see the community become mainstream to the point where it's generally accepted that if a guy feels the need he can resort to it to learn how to get women. The guy would be happier, the world would have a more well-adjusted person in it, and women would have another attractive guy around who they'd naturally want to be with. It's win-win.....-win

[andrew]

I think that's a very imature way to see it, as a secret. If it was that way, then all these people wouldn't be advertising it and sharing the information. If every guy knew that the material was out there, I doubt more than 10% would give it an honest go and use it. I don't really care if every guys uses it, it'll make a much more high standard to live up to and a better social life for all.

Even better for the women, if more men know it, the happier they will be with quality men and less creeps. People don't seem to look at it from the point of it being benifical to women. They get an amazing experience from it that they rarely get with the rest of the guys, it's almost more benifical to women than it is to us. There are millions of attractive women, but how many real quality men that have their game together out there?

[ethereal]

hahah, i never realized so many members of the community were on here it makes me happy.

i agree with most of you guys, i see the pickup game as mostly personal development and "inner game"... you can only pretend to be someone else for so long, then what?

what other dating gurus do you guys recommend? i've been trying to internalize zan's and juggler's mindsets, they resonate the most to me. though recently i came across a very good analogy of bruce lee's jeet kun do; figure out what you yourself want, then go steal everybody's techniques and beliefs and make your own personalized style.

lets discuss this further! i really want to get this area of my life handled to focus on others things like my dad's business; this eats up so much time but im obsessed on improving

[Erock]

I'm a senior in high school, and I'm definately struggling in this area. I just recently discovered the community, but to me it doesn't seem morally wrong at all. As long as you are upfront about what you want out of a relationship (whether it be short term or long term) girls can choose whether they are interested or not. Seems a lot more moral then the "get girls drunk" strategy guys in my grade seem to use.

I'm not sure where I stand on putting up an image, or telling stories you have rehearsed ahead of time with girls you just met. I know that my 50 year old uncle always keeps everybody at the dinner table entertained when we have a family reunion, and I've heard him tell the same stories 3 or 4 times. It seems that socially attractive people just tend to do that naturally, so maybe consciously changing that isn't such a bad thing.

I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts, and I know for sure that if you don't have an attractive life (this is where Personal Development comes in) you will not be able to maintain relationships with girls very well.

[Lonewolf]

Zan's site is interesting, except that I think he forgets one unsettling truth - NASTY GUYS ALWAYS GET THE GIRLS . The reason, explored in Pick Up Guide: Maniac High's Pick Up Girls Guide and Seduction Website! is that women are instinctively attracted to dominance and that this can often come with an egocentric personality. Nice guys are inevitably seen as wimps, because their niceness makes them easy to control (they have no choice to be anything else).
I think personal development along the lines of confidence and (more importantly) action are an essential part of any PU. Remember though that there is always a power struggle going on at some level in relationships; being nice or submissive puts you in a weaker and losing position. By this I don't mean give up being gentlemanly, but rather keep your niceness in balance with what you actually want and keep in control of the situation at all times.
Successfully undertaking a PU is a massive boost in confidence and is objective proof of success. It is also great fun.

[MercuryLime]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

Zan's site is interesting, except that I think he forgets one unsettling truth - NASTY GUYS ALWAYS GET THE GIRLS . The reason, explored in Pick Up Guide: Maniac High's Pick Up Girls Guide and Seduction Website! is that women are instinctively attracted to dominance and that this can often come with an egocentric personality. Nice guys are inevitably seen as wimps, because their niceness makes them easy to control (they have no choice to be anything else).

It's not a black and white issue of "jerks" vs. "nice guys / wimps". I feel like your attitude is that it's WRONG to be dominant, territorial, or alpha-male. I disagree - those traits ARE attractive, but they also are a natural part of being a man. You don't have to be "nasty" at all to act in attractive ways.

Originally Posted by andrew

If every guy knew that the material was out there, I doubt more than 10% would give it an honest go and use it.

I agree... and generally, the "jerks" associated with pickup are usually to lazy or wild to care about the actual mechanics they use - they're a part of the other 90%.

[Scorpio]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

Remember though that there is always a power struggle going on at some level in relationships; being nice or submissive puts you in a weaker and losing position. By this I don't mean give up being gentlemanly, but rather keep your niceness in balance with what you actually want and keep in control of the situation at all times.

I'm not ragging on you specifically but this is a common attitude I've noticed in the 'seduction community'. They're overly focused on who has the power and is 'one up' in a relationship. A lot of relationship advice they give is related to staying in control and keeping the upperhand.

Not to say you should let women walk all over you, but I'm sure a few guys have gone overboard with trying not to appear weak.

[Dating Specialist]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

Zan's site is interesting, except that I think he forgets one unsettling truth - NASTY GUYS ALWAYS GET THE GIRLS . The reason, explored in Pick Up Guide: Maniac High's Pick Up Girls Guide and Seduction Website! is that women are instinctively attracted to dominance and that this can often come with an egocentric personality. Nice guys are inevitably seen as wimps, because their niceness makes them easy to control (they have no choice to be anything else).
I think personal development along the lines of confidence and (more importantly) action are an essential part of any PU. Remember though that there is always a power struggle going on at some level in relationships; being nice or submissive puts you in a weaker and losing position. By this I don't mean give up being gentlemanly, but rather keep your niceness in balance with what you actually want and keep in control of the situation at all times.
Successfully undertaking a PU is a massive boost in confidence and is objective proof of success. It is also great fun.

Well, I do agree that there may be power struggle present in relationships. But to actually allow this to continue manifesting can be harmful. A couple who is conscious of how much bargaining power he/she has on the other party will never truly enjoy the happiness of being together.

Using PU tactics to get to know a girl whom you sincerely is attracted to is by all means fine. But using that as a proof of success? Maybe there should be more to it than just the number of hits vs misses.

[andrew]

Originally Posted by Dating Specialist

Well, I do agree that there may be power struggle present in relationships. But to actually allow this to continue manifesting can be harmful. A couple who is conscious of how much bargaining power he/she has on the other party will never truly enjoy the happiness of being together.

Using PU tactics to get to know a girl whom you sincerely is attracted to is by all means fine. But using that as a proof of success? Maybe there should be more to it than just the number of hits vs misses.

You make vaild points, but most of this is the inital datings stage. After a while, you know each other and you're in a relationship, you don't need to do a lot of the "power games" anymore. So when you're in a long term relationship, what you say is true. I think most of the effort is upfront, then the rest is keeping the attraction and maintaining it.

I mean, look at a lot of married couples. The man is almost controlled by the women, using sex, etc. My parents are like that, and it's not healthy at all. Let's face it, at some deep level, there's always a check of power in society. And while I agree it's not the most elightened way of being, it's nature, it's not going anywhere. There's always going to be power checks, and a lot of times it's the "tests" women use on men.

[Dating Specialist]

Originally Posted by andrew

I mean, look at a lot of married couples. The man is almost controlled by the women, using sex, etc. My parents are like that, and it's not healthy at all. Let's face it, at some deep level, there's always a check of power in society. And while I agree it's not the most elightened way of being, it's nature, it's not going anywhere. There's always going to be power checks, and a lot of times it's the "tests" women use on men.

Hmm Andrew, good insight. Very practical and realistic too I must agree. At the same time, I'd like to add that instead of thinking that's a power struggle, perhaps it would be more empowering to think of it as meeting each other's needs instead?

Where control is concerned, could it be that the person's needs aren't being met, and instead of learning how to communicate, they use other means as a form of bargain to get what they want. Like sex e.g. Could be the woman's needs for love, attention and affection wasn't met, that's why she's controlling sex as a means to get what she would like to receive from her man before she gives in to what he wants?

So if both parties practice open communication about their needs, and they put in effort to satisfy their partners, then I am pretty confident that all the power struggle would be gone for both parties are feeling happy. It's a win-win situation! Agree?

[andrew]

Originally Posted by Dating Specialist

Hmm Andrew, good insight. Very practical and realistic too I must agree. At the same time, I'd like to add that instead of thinking that's a power struggle, perhaps it would be more empowering to think of it as meeting each other's needs instead?

Where control is concerned, could it be that the person's needs aren't being met, and instead of learning how to communicate, they use other means as a form of bargain to get what they want. Like sex e.g. Could be the woman's needs for love, attention and affection wasn't met, that's why she's controlling sex as a means to get what she would like to receive from her man before she gives in to what he wants?

So if both parties practice open communication about their needs, and they put in effort to satisfy their partners, then I am pretty confident that all the power struggle would be gone for both parties are feeling happy. It's a win-win situation! Agree?

Ah yes, that's a very NVC way of looking at it. I'm suprised I didn't see that myself.

Though I still have to say value and other social dynamics are still largely at play, but controling behaviours can be minimized in the fasion you pointed out, if both parties are willing to honestly do it. That's asking a lot if the relationship is new or slightly inmature.

[Dating Specialist]

Originally Posted by andrew

Ah yes, that's a very NVC way of looking at it. I'm suprised I didn't see that myself.

Though I still have to say value and other social dynamics are still largely at play, but controling behaviours can be minimized in the fasion you pointed out, if both parties are willing to honestly do it. That's asking a lot if the relationship is new or slightly inmature.

Yeah, and usually such problems only surface when frustrations of own needs not being met get too pent up until one party decides to "reciprocate" by pulling some strings ha!

New relationship = honeymoon period. All is still lovey-dovey. Everyone is willing and eager to please! Haha

[Wulfen]

What people usually don't grasp is that:

A relationship is not a state, is an ongoing process.

Techie people will understand quickly when compared with "security is not a product, is a process". A relationship is not some item you have, but a continuous process that needs to be invested in.

Or in other words, you must seduce each other (create attraction) in order for it to work.

Also, the man must lead. A man who does not lead is unattractive. In all relationships where the woman leads, she is unhappy, because she'd rather be led. Sexist as it may sound, it's how it works.

[Wulfen]

By the way, Dating Specialist, I read the series on Upping your Attraction Quotient, and, what can I say? You have an awesome undesrstanding on what works and what not, and did a great sythesis job on determing the 5 attributes that are attractive for both men and women. It should be an obligatory read for anyone interested in becoming more attractive to the opposite sex.

Specifically, one of your posts was very refreshing, because I'm tired of dating gurus that say looks don't matter. Looks matter a lot! But it's true that the overall style is more important that the actual "hotness" factor. In any case, anyone,*anyone* can improve their looks score at least by 2 whole points in a 10 scale by means of hitting the gym and renewing their wardrobes.

[The Protagonist]

Another community man here. Didn't think there were so many of us. I think that Game is inner game. Stephane Hemon knows. IDEAGASMS Free Newsletter Offer. I also do Mystery Method and Bad Boy, also David DeAngelo. All very good, but when it comes down to it, nothing beats solid inner game. Chakra meditations are what Stephane uses, just being the alpha male.

My cousin who is a fully fledged pick up artist, pulls 10.0s on whim started on Mystery Method with little inner game. He did the newbie mission, and it build confidence and his natural game improved. He then started branching out and has started personal development. Just like pot is a gate way drug to Ex, OxyT, Hydo, the community is a gateway drug to other personal development. Best analogy I could come up with.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Wulfen

A relationship is not a state, is an ongoing process.

Total agreement with that sentence. Many people consider many things to be conditions (on/off switches) when they're really processes, and most processes require effort on your part.

[Dating Specialist]

Originally Posted by Wulfen

What people usually don't grasp is that:

A relationship is not a state, is an ongoing process.

Techie people will understand quickly when compared with "security is not a product, is a process". A relationship is not some item you have, but a continuous process that needs to be invested in.

Or in other words, you must seduce each other (create attraction) in order for it to work.

Also, the man must lead. A man who does not lead is unattractive. In all relationships where the woman leads, she is unhappy, because she'd rather be led. Sexist as it may sound, it's how it works.

Hey Wulfen, your're hitting the nail on the head! Relationship is a process. I'd like to add that chemistry is also a process.

It is not determined on the spot or first sight whether you have chemistry or not. That is pure attraction.

Attraction and chemistry can both increase along the way if both parties know how to so call seduce their partners. Yes, women like to be led you're right again. So it's about knowing how to lead and how to be led.

Let's tango!

Originally Posted by Wulfen

By the way, Dating Specialist, I read the series on Upping your Attraction Quotient, and, what can I say? You have an awesome undesrstanding on what works and what not, and did a great sythesis job on determing the 5 attributes that are attractive for both men and women. It should be an obligatory read for anyone interested in becoming more attractive to the opposite sex.

Specifically, one of your posts was very refreshing, because I'm tired of dating gurus that say looks don't matter. Looks matter a lot! But it's true that the overall style is more important that the actual "hotness" factor. In any case, anyone,*anyone* can improve their looks score at least by 2 whole points in a 10 scale by means of hitting the gym and renewing their wardrobes.

Wow, I'm so happy to hear this. Thank you so much Wulfen. Do leave some comments on my blog as well. I'm sure my readers would love to hear from a PUA, the man himself! haha