Dogma vs. Pre-Marital Sex

[freestate]

Alright, this might be kind of a predictable topic, but I'd like yall's input. (note to self: why do I keep using the word ya'll when I'm not from the south...)

I've been thinking about the imposed societal & religious rules around sex lately. And today, when I finally got around to reading "10 Reasons You should Never Have a Religion", which I quite enjoyed actually, I was reminded of my internal debate when I got to this part:

You’re smart enough to realize that earth is probably a lot older than 10,000 years and that pre-marital (or non-marital) sex is a lot of fun, but some B.S. still gets through. You don’t swallow all the bull, but you still identify yourself as a follower of a particular religion, most likely because you were raised in it and never actually chose it to begin with.

Sometimes I wonder if Steve asks Erin to read the minds of the millions of people who read his site , because I was raised in it. And I've been mulling over the idea of pre and non-marital sex, (or what religious people call fornication, right?)

How do you all feel about non-marital sex? Logically, I realize this should be fine if both parties are mature and consenting, but it doesn't sit right with another part of me, maybe the part that got the childhood programming. The part that grew up with the word fornication being an almost unspeakable word.

I'm especially interested in those people who started out being raised in a dogmatic environment and then later decided that sex didn't involve marriage. How and why did your views change?

Thanks, guys.

[Angela]

Do people still really impose and submit to this 'no sex before marriage' rule? I was raised catholic and long ago left that rule on the garbage heap, very fortunately for me as I have never married. This would have been a rather bleak life if I'd been sitting around all these years with no sex, dreaming of being a bride.

It's amazing to me that folks still abuse their children with this programming that unless it's inside of marriage, sex is evil, bad and wrong! What a dinosaur.

[silicon toad2000]

I was raised to believe that sex before marriage was wrong.
Yeh - that lasted when I was a teenager lol.
I do still believe however that sex is a powerful thing and not just something that is fun (and how much fun it is, let's hear a collective cheer for sex). It creates some pretty powerful feelings, emotions, connections (insert applicable term here) which can cover up inadequacies in other areas of relationships.
I feel in any courtship, a period of celibacy can be helpful to clarify the connection. If you can go a month or so without sex and still feel the same way about each other then it’s gotta be worth sticking with.

[The David]

I, too, was raised with that belief, but for some reason I didn't think of it that much as a young child. It wasn't until I was 12 and started going to church that it really sunk in that it was "wrong". Given that I have cousins who multiply like rabbits (my grandparents have about 30 grandchildren), it must have been addressed quite often.

I abandoned it when I abandoned religion. If I were still a Christian, I might not be uber-conservative, but I would be more conservative than I am now (although I am more conservative than most of my non-Christian peers, it seems).

[Wet]

The beliefs I was raised with:


Sex before marriage is BAD.

Sexual desire is WRONG.

Masturbation is evil because it is impure.

Touching/being alone with a member of the opposite sex is impure.


....

[eskimo]

I think the church preaches it black & white because it makes it clear and simple for young spirits being raised in the system. After having been without religion for most of my life and recently having been part of a solid church for the past year or so, I definitely see the merits of abstaining from sex until marriage.

I agree with silicon toad in that sex is a powerful and can be a beautiful thing and engaging in it before you're ready can complicate matters terribly. Mysterious things seem to happen and since sex is the supreme act of connection between two people, jumping into sex and forging such a powerful connection with someone you may not be ideally compatible with can prevent you from manifesting a true, loving relationship.

I should know - I jumped into it before I was ready for it and then ended up marrying the girl way before I was ready for a committed relationship out of some semblance of moral righteousness and I've paid for it by spending 13 years of my life veering down the wrong path.

I'm finally about to put closure on this faulty relationship and have gotten myself back on the right path but I've definitely learned things the hard way in the process. I'm fully committed to doing things the right way with my next mate and know that once I've confirmed that she's the perfect girl for me in every respect, sex will be the most powerful, beautiful, and spectacular experience she and I will share. And that, I belive, is worth the wait.

Sorry for the long-winded soapbox speech but this is something I'm very passionate about for personal reasons.

[Alison Jenkins]

I work with many people who still feel guilty about having sex if once they are married and it all goes back to the beliefs that were instilled in them years ago - no sex before marriage.

Alison

[pianoperformer]

I totally agree with everything eskimo said.

I'm undecided on whether it should absolutely 100% be only within marriage, but I do think it is often abused and people jump to that way too quickly. I think it's safer just to keep it within marriage, because it's a lot better than the other extreme.

I wasn't raised with any particular belief about this. My family is not very religious, so I've come upon this belief myself. I'm usually very conservative when it comes to morality.

[JimOfferman]

I think my rule would have to be "no marriage before sex".

If I am to marry, it would be because my bride to be is a person whom I truly expect to spend the rest of my life with. I cannot imagine making that kind of a commitment when such a large and important part of our relationship has yet to be explored.

[The David]

Yeah, I think that ideology makes people want to get married just to have sex.

[freestate]

David, yeah I've seen that before. Usually doesn't go well.
Jim, that's catchy! I might have to use that sometime.

[Amanda Norris]

I was raised to believe that sex outside of marriage is wrong. Now, I don't believe that it's wrong for religious reasons, but I still think that it's not the best idea. Of course it's not black and white. And I don't think that making sex seem wrong or bad or dirty or evil in any way is good. But I think that we should consider the consequences of our actions instead of just doing whatever is fun or feels good in the moment. Having sex outside of a committed and trustful relationship can result in some very undesirable consequences. Like STDs or unwanted pregnancy. I think it's important to consider the impact that your actions will have, not only for yourself, but for other people too. Sex is a very powerful thing, and I think that it should be treated with respect in order to make sure that it can be enjoyed in a safe and responsible way.

[eskimo]

Originally Posted by Amanda Norris

I was raised to believe that sex outside of marriage is wrong. Now, I don't believe that it's wrong for religious reasons, but I still think that it's not the best idea. Of course it's not black and white. And I don't think that making sex seem wrong or bad or dirty or evil in any way is good. But I think that we should consider the consequences of our actions instead of just doing whatever is fun or feels good in the moment. Having sex outside of a committed and trustful relationship can result in some very undesirable consequences. Like STDs or unwanted pregnancy. I think it's important to consider the impact that your actions will have, not only for yourself, but for other people too. Sex is a very powerful thing, and I think that it should be treated with respect in order to make sure that it can be enjoyed in a safe and responsible way.

Wow Amanda, you and I are like on the same wavelength or something. I'm gonna regress a bit here but, tell me, are you hot?

[dave marshall]

Hi,

sex is obviously natural and so cannot be limited by religious beleifs that limit natural behaviour, the old ideas of no sex before marriage were created out of a distorted understanding and so that is why this limited beleif has fallen by the wayside for many.

If I were you I would simply do what you feel is right by yourself and the person you are having sex with, if you feel a little guilty and do not know why then explore your beleifs some more and you will find out why you feel the way you do.

I think sex is to be enjoyed between consenting adults, it is a strong aspect of human identity and in a loving relationship sex is a deeply moving experience, whether you are married or not,

dave

[Amanda Norris]

Originally Posted by eskimo

Wow Amanda, you and I are like on the same wavelength or something. I'm gonna regress a bit here but, tell me, are you hot?

Yes, we did make some similar comments. Sorry, but I don't think that my physical appearance is relevant to this discussion.

[Playlife]

I also agree with eskimo and Amanda.

[eskimo]

Originally Posted by Amanda Norris

Yes, we did make some similar comments. Sorry, but I don't think that my physical appearance is relevant to this discussion.

Au contraire, mon amie. Appearance is relevant to any discussion for it gives one valuable insight into the unique perspective of the other person. So should I assume that you're not hot .

[Playlife]

If Amanda doesn't want to answer, then I can: I am hot.

[Amanda Norris]

Originally Posted by eskimo

Au contraire, mon amie. Appearance is relevant to any discussion for it gives one valuable insight into the unique perspective of the other person. So should I assume that you're not hot .

You know what they say about assumptions. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. In the interest of providing valuable insight into my unique perspective, I just added my picture to my profile, so you can judge for yourself.

[eskimo]

Originally Posted by Amanda Norris

You know what they say about assumptions. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. In the interest of providing valuable insight into my unique perspective, I just added my picture to my profile, so you can judge for yourself.

Nice Amanda - thank you.

[ns123]

Usually, people who are extremely hot do not post their pictures on the internet - too risky and there are a lot of scary stalkers out there.

I'm speculating that Amanda is very hot. (and I'm a girl, so no scary stalker here)

[Savage]

I remember in high school I had to write an essay on why pre-marital sex was a bad idea. I regurgitated the various arguments and got an A.

But I ended up having pre-marital sex anyway because deep down those arguments didn't resonate with me. They place artificial constraints on love.

If you want to sexually connect with someone, you don't need a ring or piece of paper to do that. You can just make a conscious choice to connect. There doesn't have to be any long-term commitment. Just agree to be loving in the moment. It's a beautiful thing really.

It's a bad idea to marry someone without having a pre-marital shag-fest anyway. You need to test for sexual compatibility. You have to know what you're getting into.

If you aren't sure how you feel, you can always do a 30-day trial of pre-marital sex to see whether or not you'd like to make a habit of it.

[RRR]

I feel that with the advent of cheap and reliable birth control the need for marriage is greatly reduced. Wear a condom. Wear it correctly. 99.99% lowers the chance of STDs and unwanted pregnancy. If you need extra protection try the pill, but always wear a condom to avoid spreading STDs.

I think marriage is a social contract expecting women to birth only the husbands children, with virginity being a major selling point to insure she produces only his children. The husband is expected to financially support the woman and her children until they reach maturity. I feel a lot of marriages aren't healthy and generally as an institution it causes resentment and hostility. I would prefer to see people choosing consciously who they live with based on friendship and having sex with people they love. I also would like to see children seen as a gift instead of a burden, but in modern society with the lack of proper social structure this is often not the case.

[dancer]

Originally Posted by RRR

I think marriage is a social contract expecting women to birth only the husbands children, with virginity being a major selling point to insure she produces only his children.

Are women still expected to be virgins?? I know some people choose to be virgins, but is it still expected?

[Playlife]

I don't except anything, but I am more drawn to innocent people/women.

[StellaBlue]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

I think my rule would have to be "no marriage before sex".

If I am to marry, it would be because my bride to be is a person whom I truly expect to spend the rest of my life with. I cannot imagine making that kind of a commitment when such a large and important part of our relationship has yet to be explored.

Agreed! I was raised to believe that I should wait till marriage, but I never really embraced that belief. I don't even know if I want to get married in the first place, which would make the whole situation created by that belief not very happy for me.

If you aren't sure how you feel, you can always do a 30-day trial of pre-marital sex to see whether or not you'd like to make a habit of it.

Hahaha, I like it.

[marklang500]

I think the Original Post hits the nail on the head when posing the question on the same stage as the article "10 Reasons You should Never Have a Religion".

I like to think religious conundrums out in a "decision tree" fashion, starting at question #1 and answering the stepwise questions until you come to an "End Point".

From the OP, it sounds to me like you are struggling with religion, not just pre-marital sex. There are PLENTY of God's Rules that get thrown into question if you start questioning just one. This is why "cafeteria Catholics" go through so much grief (I am one of them).

What it ultimately comes down to is whether or not you believe in a God that has rules, reward, and punishment.

If not, you either believe in a God that has no rules, rewards or punishments, or you beleive in a God that rewards but doesn't punish, or you are an aetheist, or you beleive in a non-personal God of some New Age variety.....All reasons to NOT feel guilty, bad, wrong or evil. Endpoint.

However, If you DO beleive in a God that has rules, rewards, and punishments, then you aren't done yet...you start a new decision tree. Are the rules well understood? Are we sure the rules are divine? Do the rules change with the times? Are the rewards and/or punishments well understood? Are they contradictory? Are they proportioned to the rules? Did they serve a purpose in the early church that no longer is needed?
By whose authority can these questions be answered? Do you trust that authority? If not, do you have good reason to not trust that authority? If you do, is there a different authority to turn to?
Somehow on this decision tree, you have to come up with a source of rules, an understanding of the rewards and punishment, and then either live by tham or break them. If you break them, you will either live with some heavy guilt and fear, or you will use the religion's souce of freedom from that guilt and fear (confession), or you will get driven back to the original tree where you choose a different type of God WITHOUT those rules and punishments.

It's really heavy. I think the worst thng anyone can do is ride the fence (like practically ALL catholics under 50 years old). You have to know what you believe and then commit to it.

The right way to be Catholic, is to beleive the rules, believe the punishments, but also believe in the grace that saves us from the punishments, and therefore go to confession to free yourself of the guilt. But then again, how could anyone commit a "sin" knowingly only to go to confession and have it wiped clean? How could anyone enjoy premarital sex if the guilt isn't removed until after confession?

The wrong way to be Catholic, is to ignore some rules because they don't work in our human condition. By ignoring the rules, you may not realize it, but you are in fact turning from the core belief, which is the divine writings of the Bible and the authority of the Church. You MUST find a resolution. (Pavlina had a section on this if I remember, the confusion keeps you a member...)

If you simply ignore some rules, then you may as well change religions, or not be religious at all. Or so goes the Catholic line. You aren't really a Catholic if you don't beleive the Catholic positions. But then again, is it really that threatening to be kicked out of a club that has beliefs that you don't believe? Why do catholics want to change the catholic church? Just leave the church! I know why. It's the threat of anethema. By this threat, we don't leave, we just cry for change so we can live without the strict rules. What a mess.

But what if God really is extremely choosy when it comes to his Heaven invitation list? What if the road really is so narrow that nobody on this message board will get in? What if, when compared to eterity, we really SHOULD be living our entire earthly lives under the strictest of moral rules handed out by the church?

(if anything, this entire post is just another paranoid example to support the Pavlina article "10 reasons")

I'm crazy now. I think I will try to draw up a decision tree of this nature. That ought to send me into an insane assylum ahead of schedule!

[eskimo]

Originally Posted by Playlife

I don't except anything, but I am more drawn to innocent people/women.

Playlife, I was gonna have you post your pic too since you said you were hot (thinking you were a girl) until I read this post .

[eskimo]

Steve, I think we need a hot female member photo gallery. Fellas, would you go for something like that?

[Playlife]

Originally Posted by eskimo

Playlife, I was gonna have you post your pic too since you said you were hot (thinking you were a girl) until I read this post .

What? Can't I be a girl who likes other girls?

Originally Posted by eskimo

Steve, I think we need a hot female member photo gallery. Fellas, would you go for something like that?

Probably not. Hot is too hot. Warmth is more my thing.