Incest

[Sanity Panda]

Views?

I've seen alot of hatred shown to these people who engage in such act, and I wondered how the people here would react to such thing and how one should react.

The only thing I can comment on is that I don't support child birth and people who don't fully understand what they are getting involved with.

[Ceros]

My views?: Hot!

I need more siblings.

EDIT: Speaking of which, I always wanted to have a younger sister so I could act out on that "perverted old brother" stereotype they show in anime.

[Sanity Panda]

Seems like a topic that causes too much trouble. Nevermind I suppose.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Ceros are you serious?

As for me, I don't have any sisters, I have a brother but no thanks lol.

I think if its between like brothers and sisters then its ok if they are careful and serious about it, and also obviously agreeing to it. I mean why not?

Parents and children again, if they are both adults and they are consenting, why not?

Its the rape and stuff that I don't like too much, no one should be forced to have sex, its just a violation of someones mind and body and is totally wrong.

[jaamkie]

I just can't really imagine wanting to do such a thing- I think most people can't... hence the assumption that it must be coercive/abusive, to imagine two people wanting it at the same time seems so unlikely... I think also there tends to be an assuption of inequal power in a lot of situations- teacher/student, boss/employee, and parent/child is the greatest of all power differential- we tend to assume that under those circumstances free choice is impossible... brother and sister... I have no basis to judge; just can't imagine...

[StellaBlue]

I remember reading something once that said our family members produce a "smell" that is sexually unattractive to us so that we don't want to have sexual relationships with them.

It's not my cup of tea, but I wouldn't judge anyone's decision to do it. If they are mutually loving, happy and careful (as far as reproducing), then good for them. I can't say that I think it would be a very emotionally healthy thing for most people to do (at least between close family like brothers and sisters). I would assume that there would be a lot of guilt and other emotional issues accompanying incest that I wouldn't want to invite into my life.

[Vasilisa]

Probably, I will seem too judgemental. But I think it's gross. If accidentally a woman in such "relationship" gets pregnant her kids are going to have all kinds of deviations.
I think it's the thing uneducated, very low-minded people would do, those who are hardly any different than animals.

[Ceros]

Probably, I will seem too judgemental. But I think it's gross. If accidentally a woman in such "relationship" gets pregnant her kids are going to have all kinds of deviations.

Not really. Research shows that children born out of intercourse between siblings have only a slightly higher chance of being born with a deformity than children born from a normal couple.

Also, why "accidentally"? Plenty of people do it intentionally.

I think it's the thing uneducated, very low-minded people would do, those who are hardly any different than animals.

Incest is much rarer in animals than in humans.

So I'd say someone practicing incest is less of an animal than you.

[Alexjstrandberg]

If you believe in past lives I've heard that they were past lovers in a past life. Not sure if I buy it but that's one of few explanations that I have heard

[Kazeko]

Ceros:
Let's say, I like that anime stereotype too I've also heard an opinion, that only people who never had any siblings can imagine (wish) such relationships. I bet you don't have any Me too.

In general, I don't see any problem if both people agree about it. (I recall one scene from anime, where two cousins (boy and girl) "help" each other to satisfy their "needs" while not having any non-incest sex partners.)

But I don't want to say "it's a good thing". Only because when I become famous, that crazy celebrity hunters would quote me ("He advocates incest!!!" Imagine newspaper headings here, lol).

[Marco Polo]

Between parent and child, I'm against it. Our emotional relationship to our parents is so complex, and in addition to potential psychological damage, the parent-child relationship will be difficult thereafter.

Between consenting sisters, brothers and cousins of a similar, preferably mature, age - I would be more open to discussion. The more distant the relative, the better. My own instinctive answer is a huge "NO!", and I think the reason for that is both biologically innate (pheromones) and socially conditioned.

[evacorges]

A friend of mine suffered incest - it marks her to this day. Children do what adults tell them. If the adult insists they have a right to do what they are doing, the child submits: "don't bite the hand that feeds you" is ingrained into kids.

So I disapprove of incest. Except in the above 25 category. What you do as an adult with an adult is your own business, and none of mine.

[munish]

I found a web site on this topic, some time back.

Sex After Incest « Ann’s Tale

Blog Banner - Grateful for Incest « Ann’s Tale

[ProjectX]

You would be surprised as to how frequently incest occurs.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I don't really see the attraction, but I will say that incest taboos vary among cultures. In some, only the children of your mother are "off limits" (meaning that if your father fathers children by several different women, then only the ones where your mother is the same is taboo). So, I believe there's a cultural component. Still, the aversion is meant to prevent the accompanying health issues. Yes, they take several generations to become pronounced, but if there was no prohibition, we'd eventually be quite messed up genetically.

[Ceros]

I think that before we proceed further it's important to define incest properly. As I see, we're actually discussing three different topics:

1) Incest between a brother and a sister, or any other distant relative (eg cousins, uncles, etc)
2) Incest between a parent and their adult offspring.
3) Incest between a parent and their child who hasn't reached the age of maturity (whatever age that may be).

From what I see, most people condemn the latter, though the real reason it's condemned is because it's basically rape of an unwitting child, and the fact that it's done by a parent only adds insult to the injury.

Saying that incest is bad simply because of this is no different than saying that homosexuality should be prosecuted because it leads to men having sex with underage boys.

. Yes, they take several generations to become pronounced, but if there was no prohibition, we'd eventually be quite messed up genetically.

As a friend once put it, who are these "we" that you are talking about? You and I? I don't think that someone having sex with their siblings would affect either of us genetically.

Furthermore, even if we observe the damage over several generations, it still doesn't have as much of a negative impact as when a mother drinks or smokes during pregnancy, and yet we don't see a widespread condemnation or taboo of the latter.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Ceros

Furthermore, even if we observe the damage over several generations, it still doesn't have as much of a negative impact as when a mother drinks or smokes during pregnancy, and yet we don't see a widespread condemnation or taboo of the latter.

Well, I don't know where you live, but drinking and smoking during pregnancy makes you a target for all kinds of vitriol where I'm from.

Anyway, whatever consenting adults want to do is up to them, but it doesn't mean I have to agree with it either.

[Ceros]

Well, I don't know where you live, but drinking and smoking during pregnancy makes you a target for all kinds of vitriol where I'm from.

I don't know where you live either. How the hell is that relevant to the debate at hand at all?

[Playlife]

Originally Posted by Ceros

I don't know where you live either. How the hell is that relevant to the debate at hand at all?

Because where she lives, people very much look down on smoking during pregnancy. And where I live, too. I am also curious, where is that place where smoking during pregnancy is not viewed negatively.

[Ceros]

Because where she lives, people very much look down on smoking during pregnancy. And where I live, too. I am also curious, where is that place where smoking during pregnancy is not viewed negatively.

And I would like to know what is the name of the place where you live where people get jail time for smoking during pregnancy.

[Playlife]

Where do you live then where two consenting adults get jail time for being close relatives and having sex?

And one does not have to get jail time for his/her actions to be viewed negatively upon.

[Ceros]

Germany.

Do some research before asking a pointless question next time.

And one does not have to get jail time for his/her actions to be viewed negatively upon.

No way. What other tidbit of insurmountable wisdom are you going to impart on me today? Soaking in rain will get you wet? Looking at the sun will impart your vision?
Must've spent the whole weekend researching the encyclopedia to find out that "you don't have to go to jail to be treated badly".

[Playlife]

So, in Germany, people cheer on a pregnant lady who's smoking and drinking?

[Ceros]

EDIT: But, yes, I see. It is I in the end who has attracted such a high degree of useless reaction from you. And in my inability to cope with your fallacy riddled posts I got angry and started posting messages filled with negativity, mistakingly believing that you will realize it and actually contribute something intelligible to the conversation. I am sorry, that was a mistake. I apologize for provoking and prodding you for a reaction, as I clearly see that it was a waste of time.

Yes. They do that in Germany. Thank you for those insightful questions. I hope that we both learned something from this.

[Playlife]

Originally Posted by Ceros

Yes. They do that in Germany. Thank you for those insightful questions. I hope that we both learned something from this.

I would be quite surprised if it was really true.

And btw, man, get some sleep! No use being so huffy.

[Vasilisa]

Yes, there are genetical changes in kids who were born from close relatives.

This is from Wikepidea. I am sure you can find much more if you try and search for it.

"Results of inbreeding
Inbreeding may result in a far higher phenotypic expression of deleterious recessive genes within a population than would normally be expected.[1] As a result, first-generation inbred individuals are more likely to show physical and health defects, including:

reduced fertility both in litter size and sperm viability
increased genetic disorders
fluctuating facial asymmetry
lower birth rate
higher infant mortality
slower growth rate
smaller adult size
loss of immune system function. ... "

"Inbreeding in humans
Main article: Pedigree collapse
The taboo of incest has been discussed by many social scientists. Anthropologists attest that it exists in most cultures. As inbreeding within the first generation often produces expression of recessive traits, the prohibition has been discussed as a possible functional response to the requirement of culling those born deformed, or with undesirable traits.[citation needed] Some biologists like Charles Davenport advocated the traditional forms of assortative breeding, i.e. eugenics, to form better "human stock".


[edit] Ancient Egypt
Some Egyptian Pharaohs married their sisters; in such cases we find a special combination between endogamy and polygamy. Normally the son of the old ruler and the old ruler's oldest (half-)sister became the new ruler. Cleopatra VII and Ptolemy XIII, married and named co-rulers of ancient Egypt following their father's death, were brother and sister. Not only this, but all rulers of the Ptolemaic dynasty from Ptolemy II on engaged in inbreeding among brothers and sisters, so as to keep the Ptolemaic blood "pure".


[edit] Royalty and nobility
The royal and noble families of Europe have inbred considerably as a result of royal intermarriage; the most discussed instances of inbreeding relate to European monarchies. Examples abound in every royal family; in particular, the ruling dynasties of Spain and Portugal were in the past very inbred. Several Habsburgs, Bourbons and Wittelsbachs married aunts, uncles, nieces and nephews. Even in the British royal family, which is very moderate in comparison, there has scarcely been a monarch in 300 years who has not married a (near or distant) relative. Indeed, Queen Elizabeth II and her husband Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh are second cousins once removed, both being descended from King Christian IX of Denmark. They are also third cousins as great-great-grandchildren of Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom. European monarchies tried to avoid brother-sister marriages, though Jean V of Armagnac is a notable exception.

There is a greater amount of inbreeding within royalty than there is in the population as a whole. Among genetic populations that are isolated, opportunities for exogamy are reduced, however may not intend to inbreed. Isolation may be geographical, leading to inbreeding among people in remote mountain valleys. Or isolation may be social, induced by the lack of appropriate partners, such as Protestant princesses for Protestant royal heirs, in which case inbreeding is desired. Since the late Middle Ages, it is the urban middle class that has had the widest opportunity for outbreeding and the least desire to inbreed.

It has long been debated on whether inbreeding caused some of the problems among some of the family members of some royal lines, most notably centered around Charles II of Spain, who was mentally retarded. It is thought that his genetic makeup was so thoroughly degenerated that he could not properly chew food.

Other examples of royal family inbreeding include:"

[Vasilisa]

So, Inbreeding does exist.
And I, personally, can not understand how desparate person should be and being able to find anybody else for sex to look at his/her siblings with sexual desire.
And, no, I don't judge anybody, but if one of people I know slept with somebody from the close family, I would close the doors of my house to the person, just not to show a bad example to my kids.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I find the incest debate very interesting because it is primarily about societal norms. Certainly there are risks related with generations of inbreeding. As others have pointed out, however, there are other things which result in much greater risk that are not looked at quite as negatively as incest in our society. I would guess that if one were to do a poll asking to rank incest, smoking during pregnancy, drinking alcohol during pregnancy and taking illegal drugs during pregnancy the majority of people would say incest was the worst. It is my understanding, however, that incest poses less immediate risk than the others (meaning the risk to that pregnancy, not generations down the line).

There has also been mention of the psychological impacts of an incestual relationship. It seems to me that any negative psychological impacts would be caused by the taboos of incest. If the people involved were never told that incest was wrong, I doubt that they would have any feelings of guilt. It is the views of society that creates these feelings, not the acts themselves.

I am not taking a stance on the subject yet, I am still digesting all of the comments and trying to formulate my thoughts on the topic. I do, however, think that the discussion of a incestual relationship between a parent and under-aged child is irrelevant in this conversation. Regardless of the relation of the parties, that is wrong. Sex between an adult and a child is child molestation and/or rape. So in my opinion, sex between parent and child is wrong based on those grounds alone. Obviously this is different with an adult child.

One thing I have not seen mentioned is incest between people who do not know they are related. Consider examples of adopted children who do not know their parents and/or siblings. Another situation where this could easily arise is half-siblings, especially those with fathers who fathered many children with different women and never had anything to do with the kids. Would sex between the people in these situations be the same as between siblings or parents/children or knew they were related?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by SomeRandomGuy

One thing I have not seen mentioned is incest between people who do not know they are related. Consider examples of adopted children who do not know their parents and/or siblings. Another situation where this could easily arise is half-siblings, especially those with fathers who fathered many children with different women and never had anything to do with the kids. Would sex between the people in these situations be the same as between siblings or parents/children or knew they were related?

I've also heard (all of what I'm talking about here is stuff I remember from Anthropology in college ) that the aversion comes from growing up in the same household, so siblings, etc who have never met each other will not have the same aversion that those who've grown up together will.

Here's an article about a couple who were twins, separated at birth, who, with that unknown to them, met and married later in life:

BBC NEWS | UK | Parted-at-birth twins 'married'

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Ceros

I don't know where you live either. How the hell is that relevant to the debate at hand at all?

You said that we don't see widespread condemnation of smoking and drinking during pregnancy even though they are more harmful than incest. I was merely telling you that where I'm from those are condemned. I felt it was entirely relevant to respond to a point you made.