Looking for a bit of advice

[Rabbit]

The short story: A girl (for anonymity, we'll call Jane) and I meet at the age of 16 and have a summer fling that never developed into anything at the time and left feelings for five years. In five years, we reestablished communication and shortly began serious dating. Four months fly by and we are very intensely in love. However, right around the time we started dating I attempted to cheat and at the end she finds out that I did (and had lied to cover it up). I am left after a long breakup, heartbroken (deservedly so).

Feel free to attack my integrity and character, but please also help me out here. I've been on a great journey of self-discovery since this happened, including having to take time off work, seeing a counselor, trying to accept that it is over and date (etc) again, but I keep coming back to the start. I feel exceptionally guilty about what I did and how much it crushed her, and furthermore I feel ruined because I know that I destroyed one of the best things that ever happened to me.

Lets get some more detail now before I pose some questions. The girl I attempted to cheat with was major ex-girlfriend (m.e.g.). Jane had always been uncomfortable with any reference to m.e.g because I had been with m.e.g. for three and a half years in the past. After this recent breakup with Jane I did in fact seek out and had sex with m.e.g., only afterwards I felt horribly guilty like I was actively cheating in that moment. And perhaps most importantly I reached out to cheat at the beginning with Jane because Jane and I didn't click sexually (AT FIRST).

I truly, deeply regret making that mistake. I truly believe that I wouldn't ever do that again and that I am in fact an ***hole of enormous magnitude for doing it in the first place. But I knew and know that I love Jane. The reason we haven't spoken in over a month is because in trying to reconcile, she became more and more aggressive with demands and her attitude towards me started to borderline on the verbally abusive. Not that I blame her- she was crushed and reacting emotionally because there was nothing else she could do.

I've gone through approximately two cycles now where I think I am going to be fine and start to see other women (I have been with two women intimately since the break up) and immediately after I spiral into depression again thinking about what I did to Jane and how much I want to be with her again and still love her. I'm starting to believe now that I should pay more attention to that feeling, and try to reconnect with Jane.

My need for advice is in this area: Should I even attempt to win her back (again)? There has been no closure to the end of this relationship. At the end she told me she still loved me but was totally crushed, and I said the same. I know I still have deep feelings for her. So is this indeed supposed to end? Is it even salvagable considering that I ended up sleeping with m.e.g., which was the person the entire break was centered on to begin with?

[Rabbit]

Oh yes, some more information:

The reason we stopped communication was because after all of my attempts, every day for two weeks, she finally caved slightly and said she would consider talking to me about fixing the relationship if I moved away (to a different place in town) from the two people who have contact with m.e.g. (who lives six hours away, but one of these people is her sister and the other is the sister's boyfriend). At first I was put off by this request and saw it as an attempt to damage my friendships, but lately I'm completely indifferent to living by them and when putting the whole "move and we'll talk" option in there I want to say that I absolutely will move. However, I hate to make impulsive decisions (especially one that is that big)...

[Angela]

Wait a sec... you went out with Jane for four months total? And at the very beginning of that four months you made overtures to another woman? At what point did you and Jane have The Talk? (you know, agreeing to sexual exclusivity).

I find it amazing that you would even have The Talk inside of four months together! Even intensely in love, even having known her for a long time, that's an extraordinarily short period of time in which to make a commitment, I think.

So it's kind of hard to see how "trying" to cheat early on in dating, even in an intense baby relationship, is anything to feel guilty about. Give yourself a break! And having actual sex after you and Jane broke up --- ! You are a rabbit! You're supposed to have lots of sex when you're single!

Forgive yourself, bunny, you are not evil. Get yourself to a position of forgiveness for yourself before you make any moves on Jane again -- or any other woman. She probably will never forgive you if you haven't forgiven yourself. This guilt is not going to serve you well in any relationship.

And welcome to the forums, by the way. I hope you have a wonderful time here.

[AndreiR]

Angela, you see now why I said that you should cut all contact with exes? They're nothing but trouble, and it's disrespectful to your new partner! Another case supporting my point

Rabbit, man! You need to study the following simple fact of life: you never go back to an ex. You cut them loose 100%, you never see them again, you never talk to them again, you never answer the phone when they call you. An ex is nothing but trouble, and you can never fix a broken relationship. You might try, but it will break again.
I don't care how major or minor your ex is. An ex is an ex. And it's an ex for good reasons. Leave it at that.

[Tigerlilly]

Originally Posted by Rabbit

However, right around the time we started dating I attempted to cheat and at the end she finds out that I did (and had lied to cover it up).

What you did in the first place doesn't sound like a mortal sin to me, like you said it happened very early on when the two of you were dating. Were you even already sleeping with Jane then? You said you didn't click in the beginning, so that gives me the idea that this might not have been the case.

Now, that's me talking from the pov of someone not madly in love with you.

If I imagine a Jane being madly in love with you and finding out you made cat paws at your ex even in the first stages of dating, I'd understand her being less than happy about it. It's just not the same as getting sweets and love letters.

I don't really see lots of sex as the ultimate remedy for heartache, and especially not if you're still aching to be with someone specific. And I don't see anything wrong with second chances either, especially when you suffer from a lack of closure on some level.Take it, give it, instead of mourning not having closure until the day you die. If something is really over you'll feel it, you'll feel relief wash over you in moving on.

Now as to Jane in particular, if I were in your shoes still I wouldn't give it another try. Let's face it, do you think Jane would be the type of girl who'd see it as a proof of your true love if she found out that after the break-up you slept with your ex and a few other girls? Don't think so. And if that's the case who you are right now and the guy she wants to be with are not the same thing.

Don't get me wrong, who you are is totally okay, just like Jane is totally okay being who she is. But if you want to be with someone you should do a reality check on the compatibility scale and from what I can gather about Jane and you from my pov, right now it doesn't look like a fit that was cut out for happiness.

[Playlife]

Originally Posted by Angela

Wait a sec... you went out with Jane for four months total? And at the very beginning of that four months you made overtures to another woman? At what point did you and Jane have The Talk? (you know, agreeing to sexual exclusivity).

I find it amazing that you would even have The Talk inside of four months together! Even intensely in love, even having known her for a long time, that's an extraordinarily short period of time in which to make a commitment, I think.

What does that "together" mean? So in the first four months of the relationship, people are free to sleep around? Maybe it's some American thing that doesn't make sense to me.

Originally Posted by Angela

So it's kind of hard to see how "trying" to cheat early on in dating, even in an intense baby relationship, is anything to feel guilty about. Give yourself a break! And having actual sex after you and Jane broke up --- ! You are a rabbit! You're supposed to have lots of sex when you're single!

I didn't quite understand the first sentence about cheating. Are you saying that it's ok to cheat in the beginning of a relationship?
I'm not sure what to think about having lots of sex when I'm single. It doesn't sound like a very meaningful venture...to me.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Playlife

What does that "together" mean? So in the first four months of the relationship, people are free to sleep around? Maybe it's some American thing that doesn't make sense to me.

I don't know about it being American, but in my view, it takes some dating time before it's a good idea to make a commitment to be sexually exclusive. The OP said he "tried to cheat" at the very beginning of dating this woman, and I wouldn't even consider it cheating* at that point, because there would be no agreement to be exclusive. And it sounds like he didn't even have sex! Maybe these two DID have such an agreement, but my view is that it's foolhardy to make an agreement like that at the beginning of dating each other.

And I would not assume that the guy I'm dating is sleeping only with me unless he explicitly said so.

I didn't quite understand the first sentence about cheating. Are you saying that it's ok to cheat in the beginning of a relationship?
I'm not sure what to think about having lots of sex when I'm single. It doesn't sound like a very meaningful venture...to me.

Maybe not, and that's a perfectly valid choice. And if you assume that everyone you date feels that way and conforms to that expectation, you can look forward to some pain.

And of course, if you break up, all bets are off. You can't break up with someone and reasonably expect to have any say in his sex life.

*I don't ever call it "cheating" anyway, but I understand that many people still think that way. I call it "having sex with someone else."

By the way, I fixed your quote, I hope that's okay.

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Rabbit

... I know I still have deep feelings for her. So is this indeed supposed to end? Is it even salvagable considering that I ended up sleeping with m.e.g., which was the person the entire break was centered on to begin with?

Hi Rabbit (interesting handle ),

If there's anything that stands in all of this, it's that you are far from ready to have a committed relationship with anyone. You are relatively young and this is a time in your life when you should be exploring and experimenting with what you want and what suits you best.

While you may have very strong feelings for Jane, it's unlikely that it's love especially since you readily 'got together' with your ex.

I wouldn't call it cheating either because it doesn't sound like there were any parameters established. I would just chalk this up as a learning experience, move on with your life, and let the chips fall where they may. There will be more Jane's, exes and other adventures to come!

All the best!

[pterodactyl]

Rabbit, I have only had time to skim your posts but my first thought is that you are far too young for this kind of relationship drama! At ages 16-23, emotions and romantic feelings are all over the map and romantic relationships are all about learning. If I condemned myself for everything I did "wrong" at that time in my life I'd be in a padded cell by now. You should not be holding yourself in such contempt over this. I agree with others that you should relax and allow yourself to develop. You have already made impressive investments in your own growth (e.g. seeing a counselor, taking time out for self-discovery) so why not continue that if you are not already? My advice is to focus on this process and on developing yourself. Go out and date women, a lot of them if you want to, but keep it light, without becoming attached. Explore and grow. My feeling is that you should let go of Jane, because that attachment to her is clearly not based in love. Instead, use this precious time in your life to grow and learn.

All my best to you,
Amber

[Rabbit]

I can't say how much I appreciate all of your comments (and thanks for the welcome to the board).

What has been said here is essentially exactly what my counselor told me, especially about what he called "inappropriate guilt". This only complicates the matter because I can't tell if I am communicating completely what I mean. So I will try to answer some of the unknown areas and if it changes your response, please respond .

-The attempted cheating happened a few days after we had become 'exclusive'. And we were intimate before this event (maybe twice?)

-I didn't actually do any physical cheating, but would have if m.e.g. and I had actually met up.

- That is a very short time to make a commitment (indeed, only a month after we really started seeing each other is when this infidelity happened). However I have to defend it by saying that it was real. By the time we actually got serious about our feelings and started seeing each other it completely took off.

Many people ask "how can that be love?" but I know deep down that it was. I've been in relationships before and had that kind of feeling on the borderline but never before has it been so... real. Most of you would agree that when you're truly in love you just know, and I knew. I felt it through and through, not just infatuation or some kind of physical attraction but genuine love.

Maybe at the time of the infidelity this love wasn't fully realized or developed yet. But I do know that at the time of our separation it definitely was.

It feels like she has died. Even worse it feels like it was I who killed her, I was the agent that removed her from my world. And even worse is knowing that she is still out there and I am not / cannot do anything about it. If I am to move on, then I need some kind of closure, but have no idea how to go about getting that. Or maybe I need to get back out there and try to get her back?

[ZHereford]

Well Rabbit, from your additional info it seems that you really didn't 'cheat' even though you wanted to, and that the incident may have been blown out of proportion.

Secondly, if Jane really loved you, wouldn't she be a bit more forgiving and understanding? People make mistakes.

I would think you could get some closure if you talked this out with her. If she can't even do that, then the fact that she refuses, should be closure enough for you.

[Dorothy Lite]

When you say you knew you really loved her, then why did you try to cheat on her? I mean, you must have known that this would hurt her very much and you might loose her because of that. I think I wouldn't take you back if I was her even though you did not really do it. What counts is that you wanted to do it and it didn't matter to you how much you would hurt the girl of which you claim that you love her. It's only selfprotection to stay away from that kind of "love".

But maybe she's different from me. You might still be lucky, so I think you should try to talk to her, maybe send her a message, to find out wheather she still has feelings for you, too.

Originally Posted by Angela

I don't know about it being American, but in my view, it takes some dating time before it's a good idea to make a commitment to be sexually exclusive.

This must be something American... It doesn't make sense to me at all, just like it doesn't make sense to playlife. I expect a guy to be sexually exlusive from the first day of dating, otherwise I'd think he's not really interested in me or my feelings. When you date someone in my country the "default setting" from beginning on is that none of the two have sex with anybode else. A conversation like that is only neccessary if you want to agree on an "open relationship".

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Dorothy Lite

When you date someone in my country the "default setting" from beginning on is that none of the two have sex with anybode else. A conversation like that is only neccessary if you want to agree on an "open relationship".

Really? From the very first date? So if a guy asks you out, he is really asking you to be sexually monogamous with him for the time you are willing to date him? That's astonishing to me. In my experience here, it must be made explicit -- commonly known as "The Talk." Until The Talk, I would never assume a date is having sex only with me. Hope, maybe, but never assume.

[Playlife]

Originally Posted by Angela

Really? From the very first date? So if a guy asks you out, he is really asking you to be sexually monogamous with him for the time you are willing to date him? That's astonishing to me. In my experience here, it must be made explicit -- commonly known as "The Talk." Until The Talk, I would never assume a date is having sex only with me. Hope, maybe, but never assume.

Hm, I think it's bad to assume anything anyway, people are different and have different views.

Then again, I think for a lot of people, sex is something you do in a relationship, or that it's a sign that you want to be in a relationship with someone. I guess it can be culturally different. Maybe it's some American thing, to have sex outside a relationship.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Playlife

Maybe it's some American thing, to have sex outside a relationship.

Sex is a way of engaging in a relationship, sure. I'm not talking about sex outside of a relationship. I'm talking about sex outside of a committed, monogamous relationship. I just don't consider a relationship to be a committed relationship until there is a commitment made, regardless of how much sex is going on.

[Playlife]

Oh, and it also depends on what kind of "date" it is. You could go out with someone from time to time just to have a good time, or you could go out with someone with a hope of building a committed monogamous relationship together. Sure, I can't say right away that I want a committed monogamous relationship with say Dorothy Lite, but if I'm already looking for a CMR*, I won't go and sleep around.

I can't say so much about the "default settings", there seem to be a lot of people around looking for one or two night stands these days. But then again, it seemed to me that Rabbit wanted more than that.

*See, I have my own acronym too!

[Tigerlilly]

Originally Posted by Dorothy Lite

This must be something American... It doesn't make sense to me at all, just like it doesn't make sense to playlife. I expect a guy to be sexually exlusive from the first day of dating, otherwise I'd think he's not really interested in me or my feelings. When you date someone in my country the "default setting" from beginning on is that none of the two have sex with anybode else. A conversation like that is only neccessary if you want to agree on an "open relationship".

Same for me here. It even goes as far that you wouldn't even date more than one person at a time, at least if you're seriously going out with each other; the "default setting" is monogamous really right from the start when you make the decision to become romantically involved with each other. All else is "Sex in the City" and a far cry from the rural world I grew up and live in.

[Angela]

We should do one of those reality tv shows where we switch places and shock everybody with our dating sensibilities.