Sexual morality.

[Nasir]

What is your definition of what is sexually moral & immoral?

[Angela]

If it hurts, it's immoral, unless you want it to hurt.

Otherwise, it's okay.

[AlexG]

What satisfies me and the woman I am with.

[jaamkie]

Originally Posted by Angela

If it hurts, it's immoral, unless you want it to hurt.

Otherwise, it's okay.

hurts who, and if who "wants"? assuming you mean hurt the other person (because if you're hurting yourself, I think at least unconsciously you "want" it...), and assuming you mean unless they want it to hurt (because otherwise you'd be supporting abusers who enjoy abusing...), I have a hard time with the practical application of that definition- first, it is difficult to always judge in advance what will and won't hurt someone else; second, often given a situation, it is a choice of smaller or larger hurt, now or later hurt, not a simple yes/no; third, people are responsible for their own lives and for their own choices- sometimes people choose to risk being hurt (even though they don't want it to) over choosing to live safely, and I think it is by far better to respect their considered risk than to condescendingly avoid the potential to hurt them.

I think my own definition would pretty much relate to honesty and integrity- representing yourself truthfully and continuing to live in accord with what you've said; rather than trying to define "hurt" and delegating responsibility for one person's well-being to another person.

[Angela]

OMG, it hurt to read that, jaamkie.

You make it far more complicated than I do.

[jaamkie]

Originally Posted by Angela

OMG, it hurt to read that, jaamkie.

You make it far more complicated than I do.

I probably overcomplicate everything; but I sincerely think in this case, honesty and integrity is a much simpler practical definition than "hurt"!

I can't control someone else's response to my actions, I can't always know or control whether someone else will be hurt, but I always immediately know and regret my own dishonesty (or often silence that allows an inaccurate assumption to occur/continue).

[Angela]

I can easily think of times when being honest would not be the most moral thing to do in bed.

[jaamkie]

seriously? like what?

[Honeywith4bees]

Originally Posted by Angela

If it hurts, it's immoral, unless you want it to hurt.

Otherwise, it's okay.

And I thought you were simply referencing S&M !!!!

I feel so ashamed everyone else assumed integrity and honesty . . .

[Dannyboy1]

No animals and tell your partner if you're going to cheat.

[lasti]

Originally Posted by Honeywith4bees

And I thought you were simply referencing S&M !!!!

In my subjective reality she was refering to SM.

seriously? like what?

Well, what is honesty? Your ego can be honest and very destructive at the same time (as ego is destructive per se as it is selfish cause it thinks it's seperated from other beings). Destructive shouldn't be moral, should it? Well, that's just a spirtual perspective from me. No idea, what Angela actually wanted to say with it.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by lasti

In my subjective reality she was refering to SM.


Well, what is honesty? Your ego can be honest and very destructive at the same time (as ego is destructive per se as it is selfish cause it thinks it's seperated from other beings). Destructive shouldn't be moral, should it? Well, that's just a spirtual perspective from me. No idea, what Angela actually wanted to say with it.

If you want to see someone else, tell them. Don't just go behind their backs and sleep with someone. Give them at least enough respect to decide if they want to end the relationship or deal with it.

[lasti]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

If you want to see someone else, tell them. Don't just go behind their backs and sleep with someone. Give them at least enough respect to decide if they want to end the relationship or deal with it.

I'm absolutely with you on this.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by jaamkie

seriously? like what?

Sometimes a lover seems to be asking one thing, but is really asking for another.

Let's say a man asks a woman how many lovers she's had prior to him. It does neither of them any good service in the relationship for her to honestly say, I've had 150 lovers, because a number is only going to live on infamy between them. What he might really be looking for, and it does take some sensitivity and generous listening to hear it, is that he measures up. A more generous (moral) answer than "150" might be "Gerald, neither of us were virgins when we met, and you are my favorite man I've ever met. You're the one who lights my soul on fire; and with all my heart, soul, and body I choose you."

Or a woman, asks him if he likes the negligee she is wearing in the hopes of turning him on and giving pleasure to them both. He could honestly say, "No, I hate it -- that thing makes you look like a 1950's frigid housewife." Or he could recognize that she wants to generate sexiness and love between them, and answer, "You look gorgeous no matter what you wear. Come here you sexy thing and let's take it off of your hot body. (and later..) You want to break out the Victoria's Secret and let me show you what would really turn me on like crazy?" Which would be more moral?

Or two people are making love and in the middle one guy asks, "Do you love me, Horace?" And Horace could answer, "No, sorry." That would be honest. Or he could say, "I love what we're doing right now, and I love being so close with you. I feel like we're still in the getting-to-know-each-other stage, and I'd love to see where this will go. And right now, I am loving life, Beauregard! How about you? {insert sexy, scandalous, anatomically unlikely manuever here}.

It's not always easy for people to boldly and directly ask for what they want in bed, there are so many feelings in sex and intimacy that can make things more complicated and sensitive than outside of that realm. The good news is that we're given the opportunity in sexual relationship to find out how generous, how loving, and how present we can be.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

No animals

Well, so much for Danger Man.

For the record, I am with you that honesty and directness in love and sex is a great thing -- and that withholding information (like that you're having sex with someone else) would be a source of pain, and so that falls outside of my "hurt" moral boundaries. Being as honest and direct as you are generously and lovingly able is definitely something to commit yourself to if you want your relationship to thrive.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Angela

If it hurts, it's immoral, unless you want it to hurt.

Otherwise, it's okay.

Yep, agree with Ang here.

Sexual morality isn't too different than normal, everyday decency.

[jaamkie]

Originally Posted by Angela

Sometimes a lover seems to be asking one thing, but is really asking for another.

Let's say a man asks a woman how many lovers she's had prior to him. It does neither of them any good service in the relationship for her to honestly say, I've had 150 lovers, because a number is only going to live on infamy between them. What he might really be looking for, and it does take some sensitivity and generous listening to hear it, is that he measures up. A more generous (moral) answer than "150" might be "Gerald, neither of us were virgins when we met, and you are my favorite man I've ever met. You're the one who lights my soul on fire; and with all my heart, soul, and body I choose you."

Or a woman, asks him if he likes the negligee she is wearing in the hopes of turning him on and giving pleasure to them both. He could honestly say, "No, I hate it -- that thing makes you look like a 1950's frigid housewife." Or he could recognize that she wants to generate sexiness and love between them, and answer, "You look gorgeous no matter what you wear. Come here you sexy thing and let's take it off of your hot body. (and later..) You want to break out the Victoria's Secret and let me show you what would really turn me on like crazy?" Which would be more moral?

Or two people are making love and in the middle one guy asks, "Do you love me, Horace?" And Horace could answer, "No, sorry." That would be honest. Or he could say, "I love what we're doing right now, and I love being so close with you. I feel like we're still in the getting-to-know-each-other stage, and I'd love to see where this will go. And right now, I am loving life, Beauregard! How about you? {insert sexy, scandalous, anatomically unlikely manuever here}.

It's not always easy for people to boldly and directly ask for what they want in bed, there are so many feelings in sex and intimacy that can make things more complicated and sensitive than outside of that realm. The good news is that we're given the opportunity in sexual relationship to find out how generous, how loving, and how present we can be.

interesting... perhaps I have something to learn here? I think my definition of honesty/integrity includes both an honest answer to the direct question, an honest response to the underlying questions/emotions, and an honest representation of your total feelings in a situation:

I would tell my number of lovers along with a "but here I am now with you and that's what matters" if that's how I felt about it;

I would want to know if a guy found whatever I was doing a turn-off rather than a turn-on, though I would want it phrased kindly and recognizing the good intention behind it;

I would (and have several times) give an honest "I'm not sure how I feel yet" if that's how I feel; and if you know you aren't in love and don't see the potential, I think you have to make sure the other person knows that- respectfully and kindly, but you have to let them know so they can decide what sort of relationship they want based on that information.

or maybe I'm wrong here... maybe it's ok to let things slide and gloss over the truth in favor of not hurting feelings in the short run... I'm an absolute horrible actress so I tend to only get myself into more trouble by trying to pretend other than I feel, even if I'm technically not "lying".

[Angela]

Just to be clear, Jaamkie, I'm not in favor of glossing over, acting, or pretending. I am in favor of seeing how generously and lovingly I can communicate with my lover, while at the same time being true to myself.

About the turn-ons and turn-offs? It's not what you say but how you say it. I could say, "I HATE that! Stop it!" and be being really honest. OR.... I could choose to gently guide him to the right spot, and celebrate when he gets there. Throw a little party and let him know he's made ME the guest of honor.

Or I could write him an anonymous note pieced together from old newspapers and magazines, like a ransom demand: "Bite that spot once more and you'll never see your shih-tzu FiFi again!" But that would be immoral.

[jaamkie]

Originally Posted by Angela

Just to be clear, Jaamkie, I'm not in favor of glossing over, acting, or pretending. I am in favor of seeing how generously and lovingly I can communicate with my lover, while at the same time being true to myself.

About the turn-ons and turn-offs? It's not what you say but how you say it. I could say, "I HATE that! Stop it!" and be being really honest. OR.... I could choose to gently guide him to the right spot, and celebrate when he gets there. Throw a little party and let him know he's made ME the guest of honor.

Or I could write him an anonymous note pieced together from old newspapers and magazines, like a ransom demand: "Bite that spot once more and you'll never see your shih-tzu FiFi again!" But that would be immoral.

Yes... Thinking why this topic interests me, maybe I'm a very non-confrontational person who's first tendency is to gloss over issues to avoid conflict; I sometimes try to convince myself I'm in love when I'm not; so for me, the rule of always putting the truth out there, being honest, balances my instinctual wanting to keep everything happy and easy and keep quiet about the issues. Maybe you come at it from a different perspective?

[Angela]

Maybe, yes. Maybe your lesson right now involves giving up less of yourself, and taking more; and mine might involve giving up more of myself, and taking less. Two sides of the same coin, huh? We're both learning how to optimize the flow.